Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:44 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
The order is not connected with the 30 more a321 ordered today as simpleflying states, rigjht?


It’s a rumor. It could very well be that the rumor mistook the 330 for the 321.

As discussed, a 330 rumor makes little sense. DL’s set to take delivery of 20 339/359 next year, and sellers are looking to move aircraft now. And DL could’ve accelerated deliveries of its 339/359, but merely moved three aircraft forward.

These planes are scheduled for delivery through 2027. It looks like DL’s executing a long, calculated fleet renewal.

Actually, the fact that DL did not accelerate too many new aircraft delivery could very well be a sign that they are taking in used frames: if they feel they need more than 20 widebodies next year (and more than their current order book for the foreseeable future), why accelerate new aircraft delivery at top $$$ when you can snatch used-but-still-in-very-good-shape frames that are currently being offloaded by competitors? It would be actually a very smart move, one that DL is used to doing (on the narrowbody market, but their recent used A350 order shows they can change their MO).

Maybe Airbus couldnt accelerate deliveries they don’t have limited manufacturing capacity.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2560
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:51 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

It’s a rumor. It could very well be that the rumor mistook the 330 for the 321.

As discussed, a 330 rumor makes little sense. DL’s set to take delivery of 20 339/359 next year, and sellers are looking to move aircraft now. And DL could’ve accelerated deliveries of its 339/359, but merely moved three aircraft forward.

These planes are scheduled for delivery through 2027. It looks like DL’s executing a long, calculated fleet renewal.

Actually, the fact that DL did not accelerate too many new aircraft delivery could very well be a sign that they are taking in used frames: if they feel they need more than 20 widebodies next year (and more than their current order book for the foreseeable future), why accelerate new aircraft delivery at top $$$ when you can snatch used-but-still-in-very-good-shape frames that are currently being offloaded by competitors? It would be actually a very smart move, one that DL is used to doing (on the narrowbody market, but their recent used A350 order shows they can change their MO).

Maybe Airbus couldnt accelerate deliveries they don’t have limited manufacturing capacity.

They DO have limited manufacturing capacities, like everybody else.
I don't know if Airbus is running at full capacity right now, it'd be surprising given the current situation. And aren't the A330neos running slow right now?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:59 pm

The latest I found is from May and they are producing two per month. And I don’t know what ramp up time would be for them and their suppliers to increase production. Also Airbus said they don’t expect production to go back to pre Covid levels until sometime from 2023 to 2025.

Image
Last edited by Boof02671 on Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12403
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:01 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Actually, the fact that DL did not accelerate too many new aircraft delivery could very well be a sign that they are taking in used frames: if they feel they need more than 20 widebodies next year (and more than their current order book for the foreseeable future), why accelerate new aircraft delivery at top $$$ when you can snatch used-but-still-in-very-good-shape frames that are currently being offloaded by competitors? It would be actually a very smart move, one that DL is used to doing (on the narrowbody market, but their recent used A350 order shows they can change their MO).

Maybe Airbus couldnt accelerate deliveries they don’t have limited manufacturing capacity.

They DO have limited manufacturing capacities, like everybody else.
I don't know if Airbus is running at full capacity right now, it'd be surprising given the current situation. And aren't the A330neos running slow right now?

It’s a bit more complicated than that. Depending on lead times for parts Airbus may not be able to raise production fast enough even if the line is running below max. In addition it costs money to raise production (again, even if just to prior levels) so Airbus is not going to do that for a single customer for a handful of planes, especially if the market is not yet ready for the increased rate and they would have to just lower right back down again. Yo-yoing production rates is not cost effective.
 
LDRA
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:09 pm

Maybe DL is projecting market will be volatile for a few years with COVID not going away?
When COVID cases down, everyone wants to go on vacation. When COVID cases spike, park aircraft

So need to bulk up the fleet for the peaks. But average utilization will not be so great, so buy some cheap used airframes.

A330CEO is very versatile, can be used economically both long haul and medium haul domestic.
 
User avatar
DL752
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:30 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:23 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
The order is not connected with the 30 more a321 ordered today as simpleflying states, rigjht?


It’s a rumor. It could very well be that the rumor mistook the 330 for the 321.


Maybe "30" 321's was heard instead of 330's. Haha

Looking forward to whatever comes from the potential order.
Was just up the other night wondering what was next. Whether it be now or in the future... my thoughts were secondhand A330's for widebody and A321neo's for narrow.

DL752 :airplane:
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8999
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:35 pm

Taking a step back......

In most of the past several instances of fleet acquisition decisions, there have been credible sources / rumors indicating such prior to public announcements.
In this case, there was a rumor indicating such, of unknown origin that popped up on several industry-related boards yesterday that essentially started cross-posting the same rumor.
Such rumor was a muddled story about used A330s and then the obligatory MAX perpetual rumor. Then piling on that an announcement would be coming as soon as "today".
Then today, there is an official announcement about additional A321NEO orders, firming up the delivery schedule for 155 now in 2022-2027.
Leads me to believe there is a good possibility that the rumor sources were indeed "in the know" but somewhere, as rumors go, like the old game of telephone, where the message gets convoluted as the rumor mill and gossip train continues onward.

Example:
"heard there will be additional Airbus acquisition soon" got turned into a rumor about A330, when the initial source didn't indicate fleet type or made a leap to assume A330s.
Its also possible, sure, that some due-diligence has been done to assess the market for used A330s. Its possible that was done back at the time when assessing the used A359 and B739, and looking holistically at the used market.

DL has said that for widebody / international capacity, the 763 is their near-term flex fleet / flex capacity.
Currently have ~40 in service, and based on information posted on this site, have plans to do the cabin mods on 17-19 frames (76K), but still tenatively planning on fleet retirement by end of 2025.
That tells me that at least as of now, they are likely planning on retiring the ~20 763s that are not going to be modified, probably over the next 2 years (probably after Summer 2023). Then the balance of the 76K then by end of 2025. There is more than enough A339 and A359s coming on-line by end of 2023 to cover 763 retirements.
However, if it makes sense they can flex up and down the pace of 763 retirements and/or extend full retirement beyond 2025 if market conditions make sense.

Hence why I really doubt the need for more A330s, particularly A332s in the near-term.
The exception being, like others have suggested there is a buyer out there looking to gobble-up the 763s for cargo conversion, and DL decides to accelerate 763 fleet replacement with used A330s.
 
skydiamond
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:27 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:41 pm

LX321 wrote:
Perhaps the new NEO light versions with lower MTW are of interest for DL to replace the remaining 767s.


Launch customer for the new 200t variant of A330-800 maybe?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:46 pm

In fairness, AFJ reported back in May that Castlelake was in advanced negotiations to sells its 739 and 330, and name dropped DL as the probable suitor. So, there was some merit to this rumor. The question is... were they referring to the aircraft leased to Lion Air Group (which Lion Air Group subsequently reached a deal to maintain), or Qatar (some of which may be available)? And was this before DL agreed to acquire the seven ex-LATAM aircraft? The difficulty in assessing this rumor... is that people cradle rumors, mingling months-old (some of which may have had some substance that fizzled out) with current water cooler gossip. And the even bigger problem... is that they sugar coat them: e.g. 'just heard DL's about to acquire 30 more A321... and there's still talk of a potential MAX order.' Let's be clear: DL could quietly exercise options for 321NEO, or place a top off 339 order... but it's incredibly unlikely a MAX / Dreamliner order would ever happen without negotiations leaking (and probably not with a formal RFP, either).

Regarding the 763... by the time the last aircraft is scheduled for retirement in roughly four years, DL will have 49 additional A339/A359 on property. Not only do they not need additional widebodies to replace the 763, but they're acting upon an aggressive delivery schedule as it is. Long-haul revenues aren't expected to match 2019 levels until 2025 at the earliest... if that changes, maybe DL will add a top-off order, but again, it's hard to envision them adding to their widebody commitments at this time.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:55 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
In fairness, AFJ reported back in May that Castlelake was in advanced negotiations to sells its 739 and 330, and name dropped DL as the probable suitor. So, there was some merit to this rumor. The question is... were they referring to the aircraft leased to Lion Air Group (which Lion Air Group subsequently reached a deal to maintain), or Qatar (some of which may be available)? And was this before DL agreed to acquire the seven ex-LATAM aircraft? The difficulty in assessing this rumor... is that people cradle rumors, mingling months-old (some of which may have had some substance that fizzled out) with current water cooler gossip. And the even bigger problem... is that they sugar coat them: e.g. 'just heard DL's about to acquire 30 more A321... and there's still talk of a potential MAX order.' Let's be clear: DL could quietly exercise options for 321NEO, or place a top off 339 order... but it's incredibly unlikely a MAX / Dreamliner order would ever happen without negotiations leaking (and probably not with a formal RFP, either).

Regarding the 763... by the time the last aircraft is scheduled for retirement in roughly four years, DL will have 49 additional A339/A359 on property. Not only do they not need additional widebodies to replace the 763, but they're acting upon an aggressive delivery schedule as it is. Long-haul revenues aren't expected to match 2019 levels until 2025 at the earliest... if that changes, maybe DL will add a top-off order, but again, it's hard to envision them adding to their widebody commitments at this time.

Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law and SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law ans SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.


I didn't assert that. By quietly, I meant that few people would know. If DL's exercising a few options, a minimum number of employees at DL and Airbus would know until they disclose it. If DL's placing a brand new order for 100 MAX jets, there's literally thousands of people who will find out some details in the course of business, hence why there's always a leak -- often intentionally by Boeing/Airbus/etc.'s marketing team.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:02 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
In fairness, AFJ reported back in May that Castlelake was in advanced negotiations to sells its 739 and 330, and name dropped DL as the probable suitor. So, there was some merit to this rumor. The question is... were they referring to the aircraft leased to Lion Air Group (which Lion Air Group subsequently reached a deal to maintain), or Qatar (some of which may be available)? And was this before DL agreed to acquire the seven ex-LATAM aircraft? The difficulty in assessing this rumor... is that people cradle rumors, mingling months-old (some of which may have had some substance that fizzled out) with current water cooler gossip. And the even bigger problem... is that they sugar coat them: e.g. 'just heard DL's about to acquire 30 more A321... and there's still talk of a potential MAX order.' Let's be clear: DL could quietly exercise options for 321NEO, or place a top off 339 order... but it's incredibly unlikely a MAX / Dreamliner order would ever happen without negotiations leaking (and probably not with a formal RFP, either).

Regarding the 763... by the time the last aircraft is scheduled for retirement in roughly four years, DL will have 49 additional A339/A359 on property. Not only do they not need additional widebodies to replace the 763, but they're acting upon an aggressive delivery schedule as it is. Long-haul revenues aren't expected to match 2019 levels until 2025 at the earliest... if that changes, maybe DL will add a top-off order, but again, it's hard to envision them adding to their widebody commitments at this time.

Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law ans SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.


That isn't entirely true. It depends on materiality - and what you think is material is far lower than what actually is for these corporations. There are plenty of examples of publicly-traded companies (in the US even) having unidentified orders. Either way, I think his point was we may not have "leaks" or news on exercising options/top off Airbus orders, but the significance of a Boeing MAX or Dreamliner order likely would have some leaks because of the significant negotiations required.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8999
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:13 pm

Going back to every major recent acquisition by DL in the past decade, that involved either an RFP. multiple parties/participants, significant negotiations, or complex deals there have been credible rumors well in advance of the formal announcement and finalization of the deal. Both in the forms of internet/industry rumor, and in many cases picked-up by media or industry sources.

This includes: Initial B739 Order, MD90 second hand acquisition, 717 WN/FL acquisition, A333 top-up order, the A321 order, the A220 order, the more recent used B739/A359 acquisition.
There have been breadcrumbs and information out there. Like said, thousand of people involved in the due-diligence and negotiation phase of these deals.

A small single-party deal between DL and Airbus for coversion of options and/or change in delivery schedule of existing orders involves an order of magntitude less of participants, particularly outside of a small subset of people within Airbus or DL that there just may not be much advance rumor mill. Particularly like today that people really only caught wind of or threw out there less than 24 hours prior to the official press release.

Hence the assertion, that any real discussion about DL and MAX/Dreamliner would have credible rumors and most certainly get picked-up by industry sources weeks/months in advance of a formal deal. In the current situation, there likely won't be any Boeing orders until an RFP process is conducted.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:17 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law ans SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.


I didn't assert that. By quietly, I meant that few people would know. If DL's exercising a few options, a minimum number of employees at DL and Airbus would know until they disclose it. If DL's placing a brand new order for 100 MAX jets, there's literally thousands of people who will find out some details in the course of business, hence why there's always a leak -- often intentionally by Boeing/Airbus/etc.'s marketing team.

Airline, Aviation and Business writers get paid to follow what said reporter assigned to cover Delta. So it would be put out in the news like it was today.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:20 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
In fairness, AFJ reported back in May that Castlelake was in advanced negotiations to sells its 739 and 330, and name dropped DL as the probable suitor. So, there was some merit to this rumor. The question is... were they referring to the aircraft leased to Lion Air Group (which Lion Air Group subsequently reached a deal to maintain), or Qatar (some of which may be available)? And was this before DL agreed to acquire the seven ex-LATAM aircraft? The difficulty in assessing this rumor... is that people cradle rumors, mingling months-old (some of which may have had some substance that fizzled out) with current water cooler gossip. And the even bigger problem... is that they sugar coat them: e.g. 'just heard DL's about to acquire 30 more A321... and there's still talk of a potential MAX order.' Let's be clear: DL could quietly exercise options for 321NEO, or place a top off 339 order... but it's incredibly unlikely a MAX / Dreamliner order would ever happen without negotiations leaking (and probably not with a formal RFP, either).

Regarding the 763... by the time the last aircraft is scheduled for retirement in roughly four years, DL will have 49 additional A339/A359 on property. Not only do they not need additional widebodies to replace the 763, but they're acting upon an aggressive delivery schedule as it is. Long-haul revenues aren't expected to match 2019 levels until 2025 at the earliest... if that changes, maybe DL will add a top-off order, but again, it's hard to envision them adding to their widebody commitments at this time.

Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law ans SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.


That isn't entirely true. It depends on materiality - and what you think is material is far lower than what actually is for these corporations. There are plenty of examples of publicly-traded companies (in the US even) having unidentified orders. Either way, I think his point was we may not have "leaks" or news on exercising options/top off Airbus orders, but the significance of a Boeing MAX or Dreamliner order likely would have some leaks because of the significant negotiations required.

EVERY aircraft purchase, order or leases MUST be filed with the SEC.

It is material.

Here is the proof with Delta’s 8K filing.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... b13484.pdf
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:20 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law ans SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.


I didn't assert that. By quietly, I meant that few people would know. If DL's exercising a few options, a minimum number of employees at DL and Airbus would know until they disclose it. If DL's placing a brand new order for 100 MAX jets, there's literally thousands of people who will find out some details in the course of business, hence why there's always a leak -- often intentionally by Boeing/Airbus/etc.'s marketing team.

Airline, Aviation and Business writers get paid to follow what said reporter assigned to cover Delta. So it would be put out in the news like it was today.


Again, the issue isn't the *announcement* its the order process leading up to the announcement. Of course the press release and media will discuss the order announcement. The point is a small follow-up order isn't going to generate the articles before an order like a new, large Boeing order would.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:23 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delay can’t “quietly” announce a plan order as per the law ans SEC regulations it has to be filed publicly.


That isn't entirely true. It depends on materiality - and what you think is material is far lower than what actually is for these corporations. There are plenty of examples of publicly-traded companies (in the US even) having unidentified orders. Either way, I think his point was we may not have "leaks" or news on exercising options/top off Airbus orders, but the significance of a Boeing MAX or Dreamliner order likely would have some leaks because of the significant negotiations required.

EVERY aircraft purchase, order or leases MUST be filed with the SEC.

It is material.

Here is the proof with Delta’s 8K filing.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... b13484.pdf


Again, that is 100% false. DL's 30 A321neo order is likely material. UA has a number of examples of unidentified orders that were not announced; therefore, those were deemed not material. Not EVERY order must be disclosed publicly and certainly not EVERY lease (indeed, tons of sales/leasebacks occur without public filings). FYI, I'm a corporate lawyer. Please stop stating facts that are not true.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:24 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

I didn't assert that. By quietly, I meant that few people would know. If DL's exercising a few options, a minimum number of employees at DL and Airbus would know until they disclose it. If DL's placing a brand new order for 100 MAX jets, there's literally thousands of people who will find out some details in the course of business, hence why there's always a leak -- often intentionally by Boeing/Airbus/etc.'s marketing team.

Airline, Aviation and Business writers get paid to follow what said reporter assigned to cover Delta. So it would be put out in the news like it was today.


Again, the issue isn't the *announcement* its the order process leading up to the announcement. Of course the press release and media will discuss the order announcement. The point is a small follow-up order isn't going to generate the articles before an order like a new, large Boeing order would.

I never said this order would generate news before it was announced.

I simply stated by law it has to be filed in an 8K with the SEC.

And I stated the reporter assigned to cover Delta would check his or her sources ie SEC filings, press releases and then put it out to the general public.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:24 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Airline, Aviation and Business writers get paid to follow what said reporter assigned to cover Delta. So it would be put out in the news like it was today.


Again, the issue isn't the *announcement* its the order process leading up to the announcement. Of course the press release and media will discuss the order announcement. The point is a small follow-up order isn't going to generate the articles before an order like a new, large Boeing order would.

I never said this order would generate news before it was announced.

I simply stated by law it has to be filed in an 8K with the SEC.

And I stated the reporter assigned to cover Delta would check his or her sources ie SEC filings, press releases and then put it out to the general public.


Precisely the issue - the poster you were responding to, however, was not talking about the simple announcement. You made it about the announcement by not understanding the post.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:35 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

That isn't entirely true. It depends on materiality - and what you think is material is far lower than what actually is for these corporations. There are plenty of examples of publicly-traded companies (in the US even) having unidentified orders. Either way, I think his point was we may not have "leaks" or news on exercising options/top off Airbus orders, but the significance of a Boeing MAX or Dreamliner order likely would have some leaks because of the significant negotiations required.

EVERY aircraft purchase, order or leases MUST be filed with the SEC.

It is material.

Here is the proof with Delta’s 8K filing.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... b13484.pdf


Again, that is 100% false. DL's 30 A321neo order is likely material. UA has a number of examples of unidentified orders that were not announced; therefore, those were deemed not material. Not EVERY order must be disclosed publicly and certainly not EVERY lease (indeed, tons of sales/leasebacks occur without public filings). FYI, I'm a corporate lawyer. Please stop stating facts that are not true.

Once again you are putting words into my posts.

I didn’t state they had to file the terms of the lease. I said they had to file they are leasing a plane as it adds to debt which is material.

I can go through many airlines’ 8Ks and show you were an airline had filed where they have ordered, purchased or leased airplanes.

So If it isn’t “material” as you say then why did Delta and other airlines file with the SEC which is public record?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
EVERY aircraft purchase, order or leases MUST be filed with the SEC.

It is material.

Here is the proof with Delta’s 8K filing.

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... b13484.pdf


Again, that is 100% false. DL's 30 A321neo order is likely material. UA has a number of examples of unidentified orders that were not announced; therefore, those were deemed not material. Not EVERY order must be disclosed publicly and certainly not EVERY lease (indeed, tons of sales/leasebacks occur without public filings). FYI, I'm a corporate lawyer. Please stop stating facts that are not true.

Once again you are putting words into my posts.

I didn’t state they had to file the terms of the lease. I said they had to file they are leasing a plane as it adds to debt which is material.

I can go through many airlines’ 8Ks and show you were an airline had filed where they have ordered, purchased or leased airplanes.

So If it isn’t “material” as you say then why did Delta and other airlines file with the SEC which is public record?


*bangs head* An 8-K is required when you enter into a material definitive agreement. It does not require the terms, but only a general summary of obligations. Materiality depends on the company; when we are dealing with the US3, that materiality threshold is far higher than you can imagine. So, yes, many (most) orders will cross that threshold. But not all. Did this DL order cross the materiality threshold? Appears so. DL enters into a lot of financing/lease obligations, many (most) of which are disclosed via 8-K.

For clarity, many orders and leases must be disclosed via 8-K so identifying examples is entirely pointless. Orders and leases, however, may occur without 8-K disclosure because they do not meet the materiality threshold. So, you will not find those in the public record. Stop saying every order and lease must be disclosed via 8-K filings, that is false.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2560
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:44 pm

Polot wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Maybe Airbus couldnt accelerate deliveries they don’t have limited manufacturing capacity.

They DO have limited manufacturing capacities, like everybody else.
I don't know if Airbus is running at full capacity right now, it'd be surprising given the current situation. And aren't the A330neos running slow right now?

It’s a bit more complicated than that. Depending on lead times for parts Airbus may not be able to raise production fast enough even if the line is running below max. In addition it costs money to raise production (again, even if just to prior levels) so Airbus is not going to do that for a single customer for a handful of planes, especially if the market is not yet ready for the increased rate and they would have to just lower right back down again. Yo-yoing production rates is not cost effective.

We must have different interpretation of what "running at full capacity" means.
Seems like the A330neo is scheduled for 2/month at full capacity; that means the Supply Chain is set up for 2/month. If they produce 1/month, they run at 50% and most likely someone (OEMs or Airbus) is stock-piling the parts; if they want to put out 3/month, they'd be at 150% of capacity, requiring to tap into existing stock of parts (is available) and/or asking the suppliers to ramp up.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:50 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
They DO have limited manufacturing capacities, like everybody else.
I don't know if Airbus is running at full capacity right now, it'd be surprising given the current situation. And aren't the A330neos running slow right now?

It’s a bit more complicated than that. Depending on lead times for parts Airbus may not be able to raise production fast enough even if the line is running below max. In addition it costs money to raise production (again, even if just to prior levels) so Airbus is not going to do that for a single customer for a handful of planes, especially if the market is not yet ready for the increased rate and they would have to just lower right back down again. Yo-yoing production rates is not cost effective.

We must have different interpretation of what "running at full capacity" means.
Seems like the A330neo is scheduled for 2/month at full capacity; that means the Supply Chain is set up for 2/month. If they produce 1/month, they run at 50% and most likely someone (OEMs or Airbus) is stock-piling the parts; if they want to put out 3/month, they'd be at 150% of capacity, requiring to tap into existing stock of parts (is available) and/or asking the suppliers to ramp up.

Companies won’t spend the money to produce and store anymore parts and materials if there isn’t an order. They stock enough of what they need as with Covid they don’t want to waste capital. That’s why things are called “Just in Time”.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10185
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:52 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
*bangs head* An 8-K is required when you enter into a material definitive agreement. It does not require the terms, but only a general summary of obligations. Materiality depends on the company; when we are dealing with the US3, that materiality threshold is far higher than you can imagine. So, yes, many (most) orders will cross that threshold. But not all. Did this DL order cross the materiality threshold? Appears so. DL enters into a lot of financing/lease obligations, many (most) of which are disclosed via 8-K.

For clarity, many orders and leases must be disclosed via 8-K so identifying examples is entirely pointless. Orders and leases, however, may occur without 8-K disclosure because they do not meet the materiality threshold. So, you will not find those in the public record. Stop saying every order and lease must be disclosed via 8-K filings, that is false.


Thanks for that exposition. I don't believe DL disclosed the 777 (bought for parts) transaction at $7.7 million in 2015, for example. That size transaction wasn't material for a business with $27 Billion in expenses and $3+ Billion in Capex.

https://viewfromthewing.com/delta-admit ... 0-million/

Thirty new narrowbodies? Sure, that's material, and why discussions of changes in purchase commitments get documented in 8-Ks and 10-Qs.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12403
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:58 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
They DO have limited manufacturing capacities, like everybody else.
I don't know if Airbus is running at full capacity right now, it'd be surprising given the current situation. And aren't the A330neos running slow right now?

It’s a bit more complicated than that. Depending on lead times for parts Airbus may not be able to raise production fast enough even if the line is running below max. In addition it costs money to raise production (again, even if just to prior levels) so Airbus is not going to do that for a single customer for a handful of planes, especially if the market is not yet ready for the increased rate and they would have to just lower right back down again. Yo-yoing production rates is not cost effective.

We must have different interpretation of what "running at full capacity" means.
Seems like the A330neo is scheduled for 2/month at full capacity; that means the Supply Chain is set up for 2/month. If they produce 1/month, they run at 50% and most likely someone (OEMs or Airbus) is stock-piling the parts; if they want to put out 3/month, they'd be at 150% of capacity, requiring to tap into existing stock of parts (is available) and/or asking the suppliers to ramp up.

I meant full potential capacity. The A330 line is currently 2/month, but we all know it and the supply chain are capable of higher rates. It’s being underutilized at the moment (mostly due to covid, but order struggles before covid haven’t helped).
Last edited by Polot on Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:59 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Delta doesn't strike me as an airline that cares about which engine is on a particular aircraft if the deal is good enough.. They have a huge MRO operation that can easily handle it.. They are already handling RR engines with the A350 and A339.. That being said the AA A330s would be a nice pick up, to retire some of the older 767s and stay closer in capacity than the A339s.

Delta won’t get a new engine type unless they get permission from the manufacturer to be an overhaul vendor.

That’s why Delta hasn’t ordered a Max as CFM wouldn’t give them the ability to be a vendor for overhauling of the engines.


Thank you for this info. But since they already have approval on two other RR engines, I'm sure they could come to an agreement.


And as usual, it is overstated by a huge margin. Engine overhaul licences are a bonus to sweeten a business case for a large plane order for operators with a substantial MRO operation. Not decisive for the total package by any means. Yes, I have seen numbers. Different continent, different airline, similar MRO ops.
 
Spetsnaz55
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:38 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:30 pm

A321 neo was the order
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:33 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
A321 neo was the order


Are you stating that as a fact with actual knowledge? Or just assuming?
 
trex8
Posts: 5718
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:33 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
A321 neo was the order


Are you stating that as a fact with actual knowledge? Or just assuming?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:40 am

trex8 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
A321 neo was the order


Are you stating that as a fact with actual knowledge? Or just assuming?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


Yes, I know that, his reply was the “the order” discussed in the original post is the A321neo order. So the question is does he *know* that or just speculating?
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 3090
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:38 am

What kind of engine is on the Alitalia A330s? With the impending shutdown/re-brand, it's thought they'll pause on long haul flying. Maybe DL is negotiating on some of those frames?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:21 am

JBLUA320 wrote:
What kind of engine is on the Alitalia A330s? With the impending shutdown/re-brand, it's thought they'll pause on long haul flying. Maybe DL is negotiating on some of those frames?

Alitalia’s planes are being transferred to the new ITA airline.
 
rj1385
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:55 am

Hawaiian have plans to start pulling out the A330s as the 787s come on board late next year? Maybe with Covid they might be willing to part with some earlier. Delta help support Hawaiian keep 717's flying with parts? They have RR engines, and that's what Delta is getting on Neos.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:57 am

rj1385 wrote:
Hawaiian have plans to start pulling out the A330s as the 787s come on board late next year? Maybe with Covid they might be willing to part with some earlier. Delta help support Hawaiian keep 717's flying with parts? They have RR engines, and that's what Delta is getting on Neos.


As discussed above, the RR engines on the A330ceo are not the same as those on the A330neo.
 
jordanh
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:36 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
That isn't entirely true. It depends on materiality - and what you think is material is far lower than what actually is for these corporations. There are plenty of examples of publicly-traded companies (in the US even) having unidentified orders. Either way, I think his point was we may not have "leaks" or news on exercising options/top off Airbus orders, but the significance of a Boeing MAX or Dreamliner order likely would have some leaks because of the significant negotiations required.

EVERY aircraft purchase, order or leases MUST be filed with the SEC. It is material. Here is the proof with Delta’s 8K filing.
https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... b13484.pdf


Again, that is 100% false. DL's 30 A321neo order is likely material. UA has a number of examples of unidentified orders that were not announced; therefore, those were deemed not material. Not EVERY order must be disclosed publicly and certainly not EVERY lease (indeed, tons of sales/leasebacks occur without public filings). FYI, I'm a corporate lawyer. Please stop stating facts that are not true.


You are the corporate lawyer... and the person arguing with you is, if I remember correctly, a parts clerk.

I am trying to decide whom I should believe...

;)
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:14 am

rj1385 wrote:
Hawaiian have plans to start pulling out the A330s as the 787s come on board late next year? Maybe with Covid they might be willing to part with some earlier. Delta help support Hawaiian keep 717's flying with parts? They have RR engines, and that's what Delta is getting on Neos.

The engines on the A330neos are almost similar to the ones on the 787s, following your logic, they are more likely to buy 787s than T700 ceos.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5944
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:33 am

Time to change the thread title?
Or create a new one maybe?

It seems the Chinese whispers changed the 321 to 330, but otherwise the object of the rumor appear to have concretized.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:34 am

Francoflier wrote:
Time to change the thread title?
Or create a new one maybe?

It seems the Chinese whispers changed the 321 to 330, but otherwise the object of the rumor appear to have concretized.


Not necessarily. The A321 could be completely unrelated to the rumor.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:55 am

jordanh wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
EVERY aircraft purchase, order or leases MUST be filed with the SEC. It is material. Here is the proof with Delta’s 8K filing.
https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... b13484.pdf


Again, that is 100% false. DL's 30 A321neo order is likely material. UA has a number of examples of unidentified orders that were not announced; therefore, those were deemed not material. Not EVERY order must be disclosed publicly and certainly not EVERY lease (indeed, tons of sales/leasebacks occur without public filings). FYI, I'm a corporate lawyer. Please stop stating facts that are not true.


You are the corporate lawyer... and the person arguing with you is, if I remember correctly, a parts clerk.

I am trying to decide whom I should believe...

;)

KEY TAKEAWAYS
The SEC requires companies to file an 8-K to announce significant events relevant to shareholders.

Companies have four business days to file an 8-K for most specified items.

Public companies use Form 8-K as needed, unlike some other forms that must be filed annually or quarterly.

Form 8-K is a valuable source of complete and unfiltered information for investors and researchers

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/8-k.asp
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:04 am

Boof02671 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Again, that is 100% false. DL's 30 A321neo order is likely material. UA has a number of examples of unidentified orders that were not announced; therefore, those were deemed not material. Not EVERY order must be disclosed publicly and certainly not EVERY lease (indeed, tons of sales/leasebacks occur without public filings). FYI, I'm a corporate lawyer. Please stop stating facts that are not true.


You are the corporate lawyer... and the person arguing with you is, if I remember correctly, a parts clerk.

I am trying to decide whom I should believe...

;)

KEY TAKEAWAYS
The SEC requires companies to file an 8-K to announce significant events relevant to shareholders.

Companies have four business days to file an 8-K for most specified items.

Public companies use Form 8-K as needed, unlike some other forms that must be filed annually or quarterly.

Form 8-K is a valuable source of complete and unfiltered information for investors and researchers

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/1/8-k.asp


Stop. Just stop. Citing Investopedia to rebut the actual legal standard for an order/lease (material definitive agreement) is a farce. It’s been explained multiple times, but you keep making false statements that are easily disproven.
 
djpearman
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:02 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:19 am

Looks like there may be something to this A330 rumour. Airbus are reported to have filed data for low takeoff weight A330neo variants with EASA and are rumoured to be doing so for the likes of American, Delta and United, according to the German article:

https://www.aero.de/news-40551/Airbus-s ... ta-um.html

Let's see if any other outlets report this, too.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2642
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:46 am

Could this be the 767 replacement? If the 767s are set to be gone by 2025, the time is ticking on a replacement order.
 
User avatar
DLHAM
Posts: 683
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:08 am

This may be a (launch) order for A330-900 light aircraft, maybe even some A330-800 light?
 
DartHerald
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:08 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:59 am

Would an A330-800 at ca. 200T be a viable replacement for the 767-300ER, for transatlantic routes, say?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12403
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:28 am

djpearman wrote:
Looks like there may be something to this A330 rumour. Airbus are reported to have filed data for low takeoff weight A330neo variants with EASA and are rumoured to be doing so for the likes of American, Delta and United, according to the German article:

https://www.aero.de/news-40551/Airbus-s ... ta-um.html

Let's see if any other outlets report this, too.

I’d say that is just baseless speculation. I have serious doubts that AA and UA will opt for any A330neo- the former having just eliminated A330s from their fleet, the latter having never operated the A330, and both very large 787 customers. They would just ask Boeing for lower 787 weights.
 
djpearman
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:02 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:34 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Could this be the 767 replacement? If the 767s are set to be gone by 2025, the time is ticking on a replacement order.


It seems to be Airbus' approach. I'm not so sure of its success since aircraft with derated engines tend to perform worse than specifically designed aircraft. Let's see if airlines place any orders in the near future.
 
djpearman
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:02 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:45 am

Polot wrote:
djpearman wrote:
Looks like there may be something to this A330 rumour. Airbus are reported to have filed data for low takeoff weight A330neo variants with EASA and are rumoured to be doing so for the likes of American, Delta and United, according to the German article:

https://www.aero.de/news-40551/Airbus-s ... ta-um.html

Let's see if any other outlets report this, too.

I’d say that is just baseless speculation. I have serious doubts that AA and UA will opt for any A330neo- the former having just eliminated A330s from their fleet, the latter having never operated the A330, and both very large 787 customers. They would just ask Boeing for lower 787 weights.


I don't think it's baseless, since I doubt Airbus would put in the effort of amending the type certification without concrete interest. I do agree with you on AA and UA, though. But as Delta already operates A330neos, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up taking some.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12403
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:01 am

The baseless part was in reference to AA/UA/DL being the primary targets. I would be shocked if DL goes down to 200t, that would make it a strictly east coast-Europe bird while I suspect DL would want greater flexibility since they have hubs spread out across the country. Note how DL typically takes the highest MTOW they can get, not the lowest.

This is I feel is targeted more towards airlines that have greater distinction between “regional” wide body product and “actual” long haul wide body product. Think more Asian/Middle eastern airline than US and Europe.

The A330Regional (ceo) had a 199t MTOW and 2700 nm range. That was based on the -300, so a -800 at 200t MTOW might have ~4000nm range. DL is going to want more than that to replace 767s. (Remember these are brochure ranges, not real world ranges).
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14689
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:13 am

DartHerald wrote:
Would an A330-800 at ca. 200T be a viable replacement for the 767-300ER, for transatlantic routes, say?


Not if you want to carry cargo too. Even for east cost TATL something 210-220t ish would be needed.

best regards
Thomas
 
Scotron12
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Rumor: Delta 330 order

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:39 am

Polot wrote:
djpearman wrote:
Looks like there may be something to this A330 rumour. Airbus are reported to have filed data for low takeoff weight A330neo variants with EASA and are rumoured to be doing so for the likes of American, Delta and United, according to the German article:

https://www.aero.de/news-40551/Airbus-s ... ta-um.html

Let's see if any other outlets report this, too.

I’d say that is just baseless speculation. I have serious doubts that AA and UA will opt for any A330neo- the former having just eliminated A330s from their fleet, the latter having never operated the A330, and both very large 787 customers. They would just ask Boeing for lower 787 weights.


Just curious, does Boeing offer a lower weight varient on the 787? I thought the 787-10 was their "regional" offering?

Rgds

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos