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The777Man
Topic Author
Posts: 6150
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:28 pm

Hi !

I know there was another runway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and it was a cross runway in 90 degree angle to the current runways and was just west of where Tom Bradley Terminal is now. Exactly when did it close ? I have heard early 1970s but not sure.

Thanks

The777Man
 
adipasqu
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:37 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:39 pm

You can see from the 1963 aerial of LAX RWY 16/34 still existed:

https://www.historicaerials.com/locatio ... 62/1963/15

If you go to the 1972 aerial the RWY is all gone.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2603
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:55 pm

Anyone know how long it was?
 
Jet-lagged
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 11:58 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:06 pm

adipasqu wrote:
You can see from the 1963 aerial of LAX RWY 16/34 still existed:

https://www.historicaerials.com/locatio ... 62/1963/15

If you go to the 1972 aerial the RWY is all gone.


That's an interesting photo. It looks like they used satellite buildings. Do you know if people walked through underground tunnels to reach the satellite buildings for boarding?
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:21 pm

Jet-lagged wrote:
adipasqu wrote:
You can see from the 1963 aerial of LAX RWY 16/34 still existed:

https://www.historicaerials.com/locatio ... 62/1963/15

If you go to the 1972 aerial the RWY is all gone.


That's an interesting photo. It looks like they used satellite buildings. Do you know if people walked through underground tunnels to reach the satellite buildings for boarding?


Yes, they were at same level as ticketing/bag claim back then. Still there with excellent tile walls lol.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15186
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:37 pm

Jet-lagged wrote:
adipasqu wrote:
You can see from the 1963 aerial of LAX RWY 16/34 still existed:

https://www.historicaerials.com/locatio ... 62/1963/15

If you go to the 1972 aerial the RWY is all gone.


That's an interesting photo. It looks like they used satellite buildings. Do you know if people walked through underground tunnels to reach the satellite buildings for boarding?

All of the south satellites still exist today, just completely embedded into the current expanded terminals that were built over time. The north complex only had the remnants of T3, and I think Delta is keeping it based on aerials right now. I thought they would destroy it.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:54 pm

Interesting to see the houses by the beach where only the roads are visible now
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1298
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:01 pm

Do you know if people walked through underground tunnels to reach the satellite buildings for boarding?


Yep! And I'm one of them!

Remember in "Airplane!" when Ted Strkyer (Robert Hays) confronted his ex-girlfriend Elaine (Julie Haggerty) in that long hallway with the tile? (What a pisser!) That's the underground passageway in Terminal 3 (TWA).
 
adipasqu
Posts: 226
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:37 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Anyone know how long it was?


Using the measurement tool on Historic Aerials, it appears to be about 5,110 ft threshold to threshold.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:07 pm

 
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gregn21
Posts: 311
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Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:24 pm

ikramerica wrote:
The north complex only had the remnants of T3, and I think Delta is keeping it based on aerials right now. I thought they would destroy it.


They’ve absolutely destroyed it. Brand new building currently under construction on the old T3 site.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1896
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:58 pm

Nice historical summary of LAX on this site. Doesn't address the cross runway but a lot about the satellites.

https://www.airporthistory.org/lax-photo-special-1.html
 
aaway
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:00 pm

The777Man wrote:
Hi !

I know there was another runway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and it was a cross runway in 90 degree angle to the current runways and was just west of where Tom Bradley Terminal is now. Exactly when did it close ? I have heard early 1970s but not sure.

Thanks

The777Man


The777Man - you're likely the oldest person in this thread. I thought YOU'D know the answer to your question :)

Actually, it's ironic that this question came up here. About a month ago, the same question was posed in an airport-related online group forum. Some discussion ensued and there were anecdotes given about having witnessed operations from the runway in 1969. One anecdote was of a departure from 34....another was of an arrival on 16.

A few days ago, a participant of the original discussion/thread posted a couple of overhead LAX photos dated December 1968. In the photos, Rwy 6L/24R is shown in a very early stage construction (no concrete yet poured). One photo - a near-in, close up - shows that the construction has led to the removal of the approach end of 16. That same photo has a small portion of 16 visible south of now-6R/24L. In it, the runway is still has centerline markings.

The other photo - a wide-pan, overhead view - shows nearly the full length of 16/34. The approach to the displaced threshold of 34 is still marked (threshold bar & runway number). The photo is too distant to make out if an 'X', indicating closure, is present on the pavement.

The thought is perhaps the runway was operated unidirectionally on the 340 heading for a brief period before being permanently closed. I suspect full closure coincided with the opening of 6L/24R sometime in '69/'70.

adipasqu wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
Anyone know how long it was?


Using the measurement tool on Historic Aerials, it appears to be about 5,110 ft threshold to threshold.


The south end (Rwy 34) had a significantly displaced threshold, (likely) due to the higher terrain immediately south in El Segundo. IIRC, the published length was between 6600' - 6800'.
Last edited by aaway on Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
nikeherc
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:02 pm

In the 1963 picture, the cross runway was already closed with Xs at each end.
 
aaway
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:09 pm

nikeherc wrote:
In the 1963 picture, the cross runway was already closed with Xs at each end.


No, 16-34 is to the immediate west of terminals three & four. No 'Xs' are visible on the runway. There are 'Xs' on the parallel taxiway. It was a common practice to X the taxiways parallel to runways in order to give pilots a visual cue not to land/take-off on that particular surface.
 
The777Man
Topic Author
Posts: 6150
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:21 am

aaway wrote:
The777Man wrote:
Hi !

I know there was another runway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and it was a cross runway in 90 degree angle to the current runways and was just west of where Tom Bradley Terminal is now. Exactly when did it close ? I have heard early 1970s but not sure.

Thanks

The777Man


The777Man - you're likely the oldest person in this thread. I thought YOU'D know the answer to your question :)

Actually, it's ironic that this question came up here. About a month ago, the same question was posed in an airport-related online group forum. Some discussion ensued and there were anecdotes given about having witnessed operations from the runway in 1969. One anecdote was of a departure from 34....another was of an arrival on 16.

A few days ago, a participant of the original discussion/thread posted a couple of overhead LAX photos dated December 1968. In the photos, Rwy 6L/24R is shown in a very early stage construction (no concrete yet poured). One photo - a near-in, close up - shows that the construction has led to the removal of the approach end of 16. That same photo has a small portion of 16 visible south of now-6R/24L. In it, the runway is still has centerline markings.

The other photo - a wide-pan, overhead view - shows nearly the full length of 16/34. The approach to the displaced threshold of 34 is still marked (threshold bar & runway number). The photo is too distant to make out if an 'X', indicating closure, is present on the pavement.

The thought is perhaps the runway was operated unidirectionally on the 340 heading for a brief period before being permanently closed. I suspect full closure coincided with the opening of 6L/24R sometime in '69/'70.

adipasqu wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
Anyone know how long it was?


Using the measurement tool on Historic Aerials, it appears to be about 5,110 ft threshold to threshold.


The south end (Rwy 34) had a significantly displaced threshold, (likely) due to the higher terrain immediately south in El Segundo. IIRC, the published length was between 6600' - 6800'.



Thanks for your detailed reply...

I'm only 55 :) but have some friends that had to move from Westchester in the early 1970s due to the expansion of the 6-24 complex.

It makes sense that it closed when 06L-24R opened. I heard that it wasn't used very much before then, at least not in the late 1960s. I think I'm part of the same online group regarding airports and because of that thread, I wanted to try to get a more exact answer to the closure of 16-34 at LAX.

Many Thanks for your replies.

The777Man
 
Max Q
Posts: 9123
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:30 am

cschleic wrote:
Nice historical summary of LAX on this site. Doesn't address the cross runway but a lot about the satellites.

https://www.airporthistory.org/lax-photo-special-1.html



Fascinating, they certainly planned ahead !
 
MrBretz
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:59 pm

What a pleasant surprise. I first landed at LAX as a kid in 1964. So maybe that makes me the oldest guy here. I had no idea about the cross runway. I do recall the airport was not that busy then. How could of my old dad ever made up from Orange County if it had been busy? And there was only 1 25 runway then. I remember the lengthening, albeit vaguely. And thanks for the photo special.
 
jimatkins
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:57 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:10 pm

For a good look at the tunnels, watch the movie Point Blank with Lee Marvin. Long tracking shot of him walking through one of them on his way to get the people that double crossed him. He's pissed.
 
dalmit
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:58 pm

jimatkins wrote:
For a good look at the tunnels, watch the movie Point Blank with Lee Marvin. Long tracking shot of him walking through one of them on his way to get the people that double crossed him. He's pissed.


It's in the trailer - https://www.imdb.com/video/vi1984872217

He reminds me of a supervisor I used to work with.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16470
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:05 am

fcogafa wrote:
Interesting to see the houses by the beach where only the roads are visible now


That's the ghost town of a 1920s neighborhood known locally as Surfridge. There used to be more of it you could explore before 9/11, but all the access roads were cut off after that event.

https://southbay.goldenstate.is/paradis ... surfridge/

https://www.lakata.org/arch/surfridge/
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15186
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:19 am

dalmit wrote:
jimatkins wrote:
For a good look at the tunnels, watch the movie Point Blank with Lee Marvin. Long tracking shot of him walking through one of them on his way to get the people that double crossed him. He's pissed.


It's in the trailer - https://www.imdb.com/video/vi1984872217

He reminds me of a supervisor I used to work with.

He was also the owner of the El Sleazo Café. For what it’s worth.
 
aaway
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:11 pm

The777Man wrote:
aaway wrote:
The777Man wrote:
Hi !

I know there was another runway at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and it was a cross runway in 90 degree angle to the current runways and was just west of where Tom Bradley Terminal is now. Exactly when did it close ? I have heard early 1970s but not sure.

Thanks

The777Man


The777Man - you're likely the oldest person in this thread. I thought YOU'D know the answer to your question :)

Actually, it's ironic that this question came up here. About a month ago, the same question was posed in an airport-related online group forum. Some discussion ensued and there were anecdotes given about having witnessed operations from the runway in 1969. One anecdote was of a departure from 34....another was of an arrival on 16.

A few days ago, a participant of the original discussion/thread posted a couple of overhead LAX photos dated December 1968. In the photos, Rwy 6L/24R is shown in a very early stage construction (no concrete yet poured). One photo - a near-in, close up - shows that the construction has led to the removal of the approach end of 16. That same photo has a small portion of 16 visible south of now-6R/24L. In it, the runway is still has centerline markings.

The other photo - a wide-pan, overhead view - shows nearly the full length of 16/34. The approach to the displaced threshold of 34 is still marked (threshold bar & runway number). The photo is too distant to make out if an 'X', indicating closure, is present on the pavement.

The thought is perhaps the runway was operated unidirectionally on the 340 heading for a brief period before being permanently closed. I suspect full closure coincided with the opening of 6L/24R sometime in '69/'70.

adipasqu wrote:

Using the measurement tool on Historic Aerials, it appears to be about 5,110 ft threshold to threshold.


The south end (Rwy 34) had a significantly displaced threshold, (likely) due to the higher terrain immediately south in El Segundo. IIRC, the published length was between 6600' - 6800'.



Thanks for your detailed reply...

I'm only 55 :) but have some friends that had to move from Westchester in the early 1970s due to the expansion of the 6-24 complex.

It makes sense that it closed when 06L-24R opened. I heard that it wasn't used very much before then, at least not in the late 1960s. I think I'm part of the same online group regarding airports and because of that thread, I wanted to try to get a more exact answer to the closure of 16-34 at LAX.

Many Thanks for your replies.

The777Man


I appreciate the kudos! I admit I've searched periodically over the years for the precise answer as to when 16-34 was closed to traffic. The photos provided in the other group gets us closer to an answer.

That runway had a very short service life of ~10 years, or so. But, it's understandable (to me) that it would quickly become outmoded as result of the fall of piston operations & rise of overall traffic necessitating a maximization of capacity by introducing a fourth parallel runway.

I personally did not know anyone affected by the various condemnations. However, I did attend St. Bernard H.S. back in the day & explored that immediate area quite a bit.
 
chrisair
Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:43 pm

The tunnel in T4 (I believe) makes an appearance in the opening scene of the Graduate. Which is an absolutely fabulous movie. Of course, I won’t post the first two verses of “Sounds of Silence” by Simon and Garfunkel again. :biggrin:

Aaron747 wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Interesting to see the houses by the beach where only the roads are visible now


That's the ghost town of a 1920s neighborhood known locally as Surfridge. There used to be more of it you could explore before 9/11, but all the access roads were cut off after that event.

https://southbay.goldenstate.is/paradis ... surfridge/

https://www.lakata.org/arch/surfridge/


Had a friend whose grandparents lived in Surfridge and were displaced to Westchester. They lived over there for 40-50 years. They told some cool stories of Surfridge and the planes flying over at all hours. I guess when the house was razed, they forgot the front steps, so for many years you could see their old front steps from Pershing.
 
uclax
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 12:16 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:18 am

Regarding operations on 16-34, I'm pretty sure I saw a photo of a Mexicana Comet landing on 16-34 in a book about airports in my high school library in the 1980s.(The book was very old then, and I haven't been able to find a copy since then.)

Regarding the tunnels, the tunnels can still be used from mid-concourse/satellite to baggage claim in terminals 4, 5, and 6. Terminal 4 has lots of ads but still has the feel of mid-century modern. It's been a while since I've used them at 5 and 6, but I think 5 is pretty generic/white walled now, and 6 still has some of the tiles. The tunnel in terminal 7 is a sterile corridor connecting immigration under the original rotunda and the terminal 7 international baggage claim along the roadway, and it still has the original tiles (at least it did when I was last there in early 2020). There are still tunnels connecting 4, 5, and 6 between mid-satellite/concourse, which always have been pretty generic/white walled unless tenant airlines post ads long them.
 
quiet1
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

Re: Old cross-runway at LAX

Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:52 am

When UA opened their own Immigrations facility in T6 (in the 1990s?) they used the underground tunnel walkway to get to baggage claim/Customs. There is a "travelator" (moving walkway) that was not in service for a year after they opened the facility. I was told that because that tunnel was in some historic register and was a protected site (it appeared in some famous movies?) UA could not replace the travelator with a modern one since that would be modifying the structure, so they had to wait a long time to get replacement parts to fix the existing travelator.

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