Other then the FMS upgrades, apparently there is approximately 5 rows of economy seating at the rear corner to remove. This is where the crew rest bunks will be put.
Any weight increases will pay off in the long run as these 330s will eventually be destined for freighter conversion with QF freight.

CraigAnderson wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

I would agree that QF see it as a longer term solution. The A332 is probably right-sized for BNE-LAX and is less premium heavy which means there are still seats for business travel but not so many as to make the economics of the flight unviable.

Are there any other routes apart from BNE to LAX & SFO where a '332LR' might be useful for Qantas, assuming a 787 takes over those routes as the new 787s arrive and the A380s come back?

SYD-BOM or DEL I'd suspect. Has the the two class balance of a small J cabin and high Y cabin, with QF potentially be able to make a premium of the higher paying Y passengers not willing to go either LCC or Air India.

While we’re talking BNE and A330s, I just noticed BNE-ROK QF1303 was operated by an A332 (EBL) tonight. This is rather unusual, would normally be a 717 or 738, wouldn’t it? Is is an ADF related charter maybe?

tullamarine wrote:

qf789 wrote:

CraigAnderson wrote:

[quote="tullamarine"I would agree that QF see it as a longer term solution. The A332 is probably right-sized for BNE-LAX and is less premium heavy which means there are still seats for business travel but not so many as to make the economics of the flight unviable.

Are there any other routes apart from BNE to LAX & SFO where a '332LR' might be useful for Qantas, assuming a 787 takes over those routes as the new 787s arrive and the A380s come back?

I would say these aircraft would be attractive on QF returning to India

The A332 can already do flights to India. India is a hard market given there is no obvious single destination. Delhi, Mumbai and Kolkata are all possible but domestic travel in India is chaotic so connections are not attractive. That is why the old SIN scissor hub with 9W was so goid but QF has been unable to find an equivalent partner since Jet’s demise.

Fly in to KUL and let oneworld partner MH take over from there?

CraigAnderson wrote:

[quote="tullamarine"I would agree that QF see it as a longer term solution. The A332 is probably right-sized for BNE-LAX and is less premium heavy which means there are still seats for business travel but not so many as to make the economics of the flight unviable.

Are there any other routes apart from BNE to LAX & SFO where a '332LR' might be useful for Qantas, assuming a 787 takes over those routes as the new 787s arrive and the A380s come back?[/quote]

Well not from BNE, maybe, after arriving into BNE, it could do a domestic sector to PER, then do a PER JNB / CPT return (subject to applicable government border restrictions)?

A350OZ wrote:

While we’re talking BNE and A330s, I just noticed BNE-ROK QF1303 was operated by an A332 (EBL) tonight. This is rather unusual, would normally be a 717 or 738, wouldn’t it? Is is an ADF related charter maybe?

I'm pretty sure that's what it is - I saw on a FB page that some Singapore defence force helicopters had been transported there for some upcoming military exercises.

myki wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

qf789 wrote:

I would say these aircraft would be attractive on QF returning to India

The A332 can already do flights to India. India is a hard market given there is no obvious single destination. Delhi, Mumbai and Kolkata are all possible but domestic travel in India is chaotic so connections are not attractive. That is why the old SIN scissor hub with 9W was so goid but QF has been unable to find an equivalent partner since Jet’s demise.

Fly in to KUL and let oneworld partner MH take over from there?

If that’s the case the average person would just fly MH for the entire trip.

I’m not sure to KUL would fill the business seats, QF would be better putting the aircraft elsewhere rather than KUL.

SCFlyer wrote:

SYD-BOM or DEL I'd suspect. Has the the two class balance of a small J cabin and high Y cabin, with QF potentially be able to make a premium of the higher paying Y passengers not willing to go either LCC or Air India.

That would still require anyone not in SYD to do a domestic in AU and only one location in India covered. You have to visit India to see how chaotic domestic services are and why so many travellers try to avoid them. In normal times SQ offered one-stop from all major AU capitals to Ahmedabad, Amritsar, Bangalore, Chennai, Delhi, Hyderabad, Kochi and Mumbai. QF basically matched that this when 9W was around.

Fly in to KUL and let oneworld partner MH take over from there?

Ignoring the obvious issue that QF are unlikely to return to KUL, MH's coverage into India is not as extensive as SQ. CX and EK both have fairly good coverage in India but it makes a very long trip. Probably the best option for a QF frequent flyer to get to India (pre-Covid) would have been with Sri Lankan (UL) via Colombo from where they have a number of connections into India. Admittedly, they were limited to MEL only but had planned to add SYD.

CraigAnderson wrote:

Are there any other routes apart from BNE to LAX & SFO where a '332LR' might be useful for Qantas, assuming a 787 takes over those routes as the new 787s arrive and the A380s come back?

SYD-SCL seems like an obvious choice to me. Increase frequency with a smaller, less premium heavy aircraft.

myki wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

qf789 wrote:

I would say these aircraft would be attractive on QF returning to India

The A332 can already do flights to India. India is a hard market given there is no obvious single destination. Delhi, Mumbai and Kolkata are all possible but domestic travel in India is chaotic so connections are not attractive. That is why the old SIN scissor hub with 9W was so goid but QF has been unable to find an equivalent partner since Jet’s demise.

Fly in to KUL and let oneworld partner MH take over from there?

Aside from the fact that MH would competitively want to fly the pax on the whole journey (and probably does normally), probably wouldn't get off the ground competition wise being the midpoint partner. SQ, TH, CX would be the same.

Does QF have any 789 sitting ready waiting to be delivered with Boeing? How soon could they take these orders up?

smi0006 wrote:

Does QF have any 789 sitting ready waiting to be delivered with Boeing? How soon could they take these orders up?

There are 3 completed planes in the US desert One is only partially painted obviously awaiting for a special livery.

RyanairGuru wrote:

CraigAnderson wrote:

Are there any other routes apart from BNE to LAX & SFO where a '332LR' might be useful for Qantas, assuming a 787 takes over those routes as the new 787s arrive and the A380s come back?

SYD-SCL seems like an obvious choice to me. Increase frequency with a smaller, less premium heavy aircraft.

SCL was planned to be daily with a 789 pre covid. How much freight is on that route and would the A332 be ETOPS compliant? You really are no where on that route. Having said that there was a plan for PER-JNB on an A332 though SA already flew the same aircraft there and it is much shorter. I’m not sure how far north SCL could go before it is unviable?

tullamarine wrote:

smi0006 wrote:

Does QF have any 789 sitting ready waiting to be delivered with Boeing? How soon could they take these orders up?

There are 3 completed planes in the US desert One is only partially painted obviously awaiting for a special livery.

From what I could see they plan to take delivery in FY23 so between July 2022 June 2023, I would imagine if things go to plan maybe around the same time the A380s restart or atleast by NW22/23 so October 2022.

Queenslander wrote:

Other then the FMS upgrades, apparently there is approximately 5 rows of economy seating at the rear corner to remove. This is where the crew rest bunks will be put.
Any weight increases will pay off in the long run as these 330s will eventually be destined for freighter conversion with QF freight.

I'd be surprised if they put in bunks for cabin crew and not flight crew.

anstar wrote:

Queenslander wrote:

Other then the FMS upgrades, apparently there is approximately 5 rows of economy seating at the rear corner to remove. This is where the crew rest bunks will be put.
Any weight increases will pay off in the long run as these 330s will eventually be destined for freighter conversion with QF freight.

I'd be surprised if they put in bunks for cabin crew and not flight crew.

Someone said the seat maps were showing 1 J seat blocked and 2 rows of Y in the middle I thought? Configuration is 27J 224Y but 26J 208Y for sale? Seems a longer term plan if they are needing to add proper crew rest.

I thought about India but as others have said it really is better served via a hub like SIN, KUL and MH, QF might do something with MH but I wouldn't think QF would fly to KUL themselves again? It would likely only be from SYD if they did where as SIN has or had the J demand from MEL/BNE/PER as well. MH have to target mainly local O&D or Asia traffic, they only have LHR in Europe now.

Can't see QF doing KUL by itself.
Too close and without the premium traffic of SIN.
And you don't have 3K Jetstar Asia.

Plus Aus-KUL has been super low yield for years with D7 Air AsiaX feeding into the big AirAsia hub

3K tried Bangalore and Kolkata some years ago (2005-2007) but didn't last long.

moa999 wrote:

Can't see QF doing KUL by itself.
Too close and without the premium traffic of SIN.
And you don't have 3K Jetstar Asia.

Plus Aus-KUL has been super low yield for years with D7 Air AsiaX feeding into the big AirAsia hub

3K tried Bangalore and Kolkata some years ago (2005-2007) but didn't last long.

Indeed, although i cant see Air Asia X returning, i think only short haul air asia will return? I can see JQ operating to KUL over QF.

Can the A321LR in JQ config make SYD-KUL?

JQ previously tried SYD-KUL in the A330 and they got hammered by D7 purely due to their larger hub in KUL.

SCFlyer wrote:

Can the A321LR in JQ config make SYD-KUL?

JQ previously tried SYD-KUL in the A330 and they got hammered by D7 purely due to their larger hub in KUL.

Might be a stretch with their proposed layout (232 seats), at least fully loaded. The XLR should be able.

Great discussion re KUL, glad to see all your thoughts and ideas on it.

As mentioned above then, would CMB be a better alternative? UL on MEL-CMB and QF on their new routes of SYD-CMB and PER CMB, then onwards via UL to around 10 Indian stations, plus Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan, Maldives, Seychelles, Kenya and the Middle East, plus it is "somewhere new" (as such) for Aussies to go. Any chance that this would work? I get that you can get to most of these via SQ, a longer trip on CX and TG, even longer on EK/EY/QR, but just an idea anyway.

ZK-NBT wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

CraigAnderson wrote:

Are there any other routes apart from BNE to LAX & SFO where a '332LR' might be useful for Qantas, assuming a 787 takes over those routes as the new 787s arrive and the A380s come back?

SYD-SCL seems like an obvious choice to me. Increase frequency with a smaller, less premium heavy aircraft.

SCL was planned to be daily with a 789 pre covid. How much freight is on that route and would the A332 be ETOPS compliant? You really are no where on that route. Having said that there was a plan for PER-JNB on an A332 though SA already flew the same aircraft there and it is much shorter. I’m not sure how far north SCL could go before it is unviable?

BNE was also planned to be daily 789 pre Covid, but the reality is that things will be different for the next few years.

I’ll defer to someone with greater technical expertise, but I can’t see any reason why Qantas couldn’t theoretically receive the same EDTO certification for the A332 as the 789. Both are twins, with slim diversion options over the South Pacific, but CASA has shown greater flexibility about EDTO >180 over recent years.

EDTO aside, SYD-SCL is shorter than BNE-LAX/SFO

RyanairGuru wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

SYD-SCL seems like an obvious choice to me. Increase frequency with a smaller, less premium heavy aircraft.

SCL was planned to be daily with a 789 pre covid. How much freight is on that route and would the A332 be ETOPS compliant? You really are no where on that route. Having said that there was a plan for PER-JNB on an A332 though SA already flew the same aircraft there and it is much shorter. I’m not sure how far north SCL could go before it is unviable?

BNE was also planned to be daily 789 pre Covid, but the reality is that things will be different for the next few years.

I’ll defer to someone with greater technical expertise, but I can’t see any reason why Qantas couldn’t theoretically receive the same EDTO certification for the A332 as the 789. Both are twins, with slim diversion options over the South Pacific, but CASA has shown greater flexibility about EDTO >180 over recent years.

EDTO aside, SYD-SCL is shorter than BNE-LAX/SFO

I am not technical either. How about diversion points on The SYD-SCL sector, blocked at 12.30 for the 789 so let’s say closer to 13hrs for the 332. While on the return the 789 is 14:20 so closer to 14:45 on the A332, CHC could be a viable alternate? It’s getting a long flight.

ZK-NBT wrote:

RyanairGuru wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

SCL was planned to be daily with a 789 pre covid. How much freight is on that route and would the A332 be ETOPS compliant? You really are no where on that route. Having said that there was a plan for PER-JNB on an A332 though SA already flew the same aircraft there and it is much shorter. I’m not sure how far north SCL could go before it is unviable?

BNE was also planned to be daily 789 pre Covid, but the reality is that things will be different for the next few years.

I’ll defer to someone with greater technical expertise, but I can’t see any reason why Qantas couldn’t theoretically receive the same EDTO certification for the A332 as the 789. Both are twins, with slim diversion options over the South Pacific, but CASA has shown greater flexibility about EDTO >180 over recent years.

EDTO aside, SYD-SCL is shorter than BNE-LAX/SFO

I am not technical either. How about diversion points on The SYD-SCL sector, blocked at 12.30 for the 789 so let’s say closer to 13hrs for the 332. While on the return the 789 is 14:20 so closer to 14:45 on the A332, CHC could be a viable alternate? It’s getting a long flight.

I seem to read it somewhere on here but when LA flew SYD-SCL non-stop the two diversion points they use are CHC and USH (Ushuaia, Argentina). Apparently between these two points flight time is around 8 hours and thus just fits into EDTO 240 criteria.

Happy to stand corrected tho.

Michael

JQ planning to resume international services from 18 Dec 21

SYD-NAN from 18 Dec 21
CNS-NRT/KIX from 1 Feb 22
OOL-NRT from 2 Mar 22
SYD-HNL from 3 Mar 22

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/stat ... 71936?s=20

Hawaiian planning on returning to SYD and BNE from 15 Dec 21

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ecember-15

qf789 wrote:

Hawaiian planning on returning to SYD and BNE from 15 Dec 21

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ecember-15

Oh how I wish they could put Melbourne in their plans to.

Flyingsottsman wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Hawaiian planning on returning to SYD and BNE from 15 Dec 21

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ecember-15

Oh how I wish they could put Melbourne in their plans to.

It's all theoretical at this stage. No way those flights go ahead in December, and when travel resumes I would suspect it to be bubble-based. And I'm not expecting the US to be in the initial bubble. Though I'm just guessing of course. The sooner I can get a Hawaiian getaway the better, though I am hoping there might be some more unique routes offered in the South Pacific as things start to open up to islands that haven't traditionally been tourism staples.

dredgy wrote:

It's all theoretical at this stage. No way those flights go ahead in December, and when travel resumes I would suspect it to be bubble-based. And I'm not expecting the US to be in the initial bubble. Though I'm just guessing of course. The sooner I can get a Hawaiian getaway the better, though I am hoping there might be some more unique routes offered in the South Pacific as things start to open up to islands that haven't traditionally been tourism staples.

Quarantine requirements on return is the other Elephant in the room.

If fully-vaccinated people are allowed to quarantine at home, or have a shortened quarantine as has been rumoured, there will be more demand for outbound travel than if the 2-week managed quarantine is still a requirement for all inbound travellers.

Will be interesting to see how they start to open things back up

Exactly as the 2 above posts indicate- these flights won't be operating in Dec- the HA spokesman more or less confirms it in the article.

melpax wrote:

Quarantine requirements on return is the other Elephant in the room.

If fully-vaccinated people are allowed to quarantine at home, or have a shortened quarantine as has been rumoured, there will be more demand for outbound travel than if the 2-week managed quarantine is still a requirement for all inbound travellers.

Will be interesting to see how they start to open things back up

Agree but I think there are two elephants - travel insurance is the other

I just can't see any normality returning if your fully vax traveller has to spend 1-2 weeks in quarantine (home or hotel) on the end of their 2-4 week vacation. Many don't have the flexibility some of us have had for the last 18 months. Sure, there will be a spike possibly of some pent up demand but that's not sustainable ~6 months in. Business travel likely different of course but I do think companies will look at travel generally a lot differently in the coming years, particularly international travel

And I am not aware of any of the travel insurance companies (I think I heard few of the airlines were offering limited coverage?) covering COVID19 related illness whilst abroad still? I do think the travel insurance industry suffers from a perception (rightly or wrongly) that it left many to hang out to dry during the initial stages of COVID19. Pricing and coverage is going to be important moving forward and I just see either one or both being highly restrictive/expensive for the next 3-4 years.

Velocity7 wrote:

Agree but I think there are two elephants - travel insurance is the other

Very much so.

I suspect some people might have some issues trying to obtain insurance as well....

QF-JAL alliance application rejected by ACCC.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 58r55.html

20 years since the collapse of Ansett, it doesn't seem that long ago that there still 146's still in storage at MEL!

There were a lot of people thrown out of work in Melbourne, where AN was headquartered. Suburbs surrounding MEL such as Tullamarine & Sunbury were very hard hit economically.

Throwback article

https://www.theage.com.au/national/from ... 58pjg.html

Qantas says it will launch international flights from Sydney and Melbourne once NSW and Victoria open up upon hitting the 80% vaccination threshold, even if Brisbane and Perth keep their borders locked, and the latter definitely appears to be the case based on comments by WA Premier McGowan on the weekend, who said people from New South Wales would not be allowed into WA for Christmas even if they were fully vaccinated!

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... as-flights

CraigAnderson wrote:

Qantas says it will launch international flights from Sydney and Melbourne once NSW and Victoria open up upon hitting the 80% vaccination threshold, even if Brisbane and Perth keep their borders locked, and the latter definitely appears to be the case based on comments by WA Premier McGowan on the weekend, who said people from New South Wales would not be allowed into WA for Christmas even if they were fully vaccinated!

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... as-flights

Yup it's awesome. The family is in WA and QLD so I'm planning on doing New York for Christmas with some other domestic orphans.

dredgy wrote:

Flyingsottsman wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Hawaiian planning on returning to SYD and BNE from 15 Dec 21

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ecember-15

Oh how I wish they could put Melbourne in their plans to.

It's all theoretical at this stage. No way those flights go ahead in December, and when travel resumes I would suspect it to be bubble-based. And I'm not expecting the US to be in the initial bubble. Though I'm just guessing of course. The sooner I can get a Hawaiian getaway the better, though I am hoping there might be some more unique routes offered in the South Pacific as things start to open up to islands that haven't traditionally been tourism staples.

I'd be expecting the first bubble to be exactly what they've indicated. The UK, Singapore, Japan and the US / Canada. If you're travelling to the US I'd say there might be restrictions on where you can go if you want to avoid hotel quarantine, (ie don't go to the surging Covid States)

They're also trialing some things in SA at the moment for facial recognition for home isolation so we can expect that to be finalised. As I said above I'm going to NYC for Christmas and New Years and will plan a route there and back using the available flights and open countries. If that means waiting outside of Australia for a bit to avoid Hotel Quarantine I'm lucky that I afford the time to do so and can work from anywhere.

CraigAnderson wrote:

Qantas says it will launch international flights from Sydney and Melbourne once NSW and Victoria open up upon hitting the 80% vaccination threshold, even if Brisbane and Perth keep their borders locked, and the latter definitely appears to be the case based on comments by WA Premier McGowan on the weekend, who said people from New South Wales would not be allowed into WA for Christmas even if they were fully vaccinated!

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... as-flights

So if SA,TAS and NT all open to NSW and VIC at 80% that could mean that WA and possibly QLD are closed to all states except maybe each other.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

brissypete wrote:

CraigAnderson wrote:

Qantas says it will launch international flights from Sydney and Melbourne once NSW and Victoria open up upon hitting the 80% vaccination threshold, even if Brisbane and Perth keep their borders locked, and the latter definitely appears to be the case based on comments by WA Premier McGowan on the weekend, who said people from New South Wales would not be allowed into WA for Christmas even if they were fully vaccinated!

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... as-flights

So if SA,TAS and NT all open to NSW and VIC at 80% that could mean that WA and possibly QLD are closed to all states except maybe each other.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

That is correct but the bigger issue is the trigger fingers of both Qld and WA Governments mean the airlines worry about timetable integrity with both governments likely to close borders for one or two cases. It is likely that QF and VA will only run a skeleton timetable between WA and Qld until Covid Zero is abandoned.

I'd be interested to hear what residents of these Covid-Zero states think about a situation where Vic and NSW residents will be able to visit SIN, LHR or LAX but won't come to their states and these states' residents have lots of traditional freedoms but cannot leave their state. It is a really unique situation and I'd love to know what the feeling on the ground is.

tullamarine wrote:

brissypete wrote:

CraigAnderson wrote:

I'd be interested to hear what residents of these Covid-Zero states think about a situation where Vic and NSW residents will be able to visit SIN, LHR or LAX but won't come to their states and these states' residents have lots of traditional freedoms but cannot leave their state. It is a really unique situation and I'd love to know what the feeling on the ground is.

State governments don't control international borders, and even if they might try to claim otherwise they would not have the capacity / resources to force all arrivals into hotel quarantine independent of federal policy should international borders partially re-open as per the 3rd phase of the 4 phase plan. A lot of the speculation / talk is based on the incorrect assumption that state governments have the power to keep international borders closed, which is false. This isn't to say that the feds won't use the partial re-opening of international borders as a way to influence states to re-open earlier than they are anticipating - I suspect if we have a situation where double vaxxed people from QLD and WA can return from overseas but not from NSW/VIC that this will be a major factor in a change of state border policy.

As for QFs blustering about not flying out of QLD or WA based on state border restrictions, it makes business sense for QF to push this the way it's doing because there's every chance that exceptions could be made for crew, or in general to influence state premiers about changes on policy based on the threat of permanently losing services. It's also important to note in relation to potentially switching PER-LHR to DRW-LHR that NT's border policy is more in line with QLD and WA, they have not promised they'll re-open at 80% double-vaxxed either.

State governments don't control international borders, and even if they might try to claim otherwise they would not have the capacity / resources to force all arrivals into hotel quarantine independent of federal policy should international borders partially re-open as per the 3rd phase of the 4 phase plan. A lot of the speculation / talk is based on the incorrect assumption that state governments have the power to keep international borders closed, which is false. This isn't to say that the feds won't use the partial re-opening of international borders as a way to influence states to re-open earlier than they are anticipating - I suspect if we have a situation where double vaxxed people from QLD and WA can return from overseas but not from NSW/VIC that this will be a major factor in a change of state border policy.

You're right that the states don't control the border but if a state demands arriving pax have to go into 14 days hotel quarantine then QF will avoid it as there just isn't enough capacity in hotel quarantine to operate services with economic loads. If WA or QLD want Covid Zero, there is no difference between MEL/SYD and SIN/LHR etc. These places are all tolerating an underlying level of COVID in the community so if you're after Covid Zero you can't have flights from any of these places as there is a definite chance that even vaccinated pax will bring Covid with them.

As for QFs blustering about not flying out of QLD or WA based on state border restrictions, it makes business sense for QF to push this the way it's doing because there's every chance that exceptions could be made for crew, or in general to influence state premiers about changes on policy based on the threat of permanently losing services. It's also important to note in relation to potentially switching PER-LHR to DRW-LHR that NT's border policy is more in line with QLD and WA, they have not promised they'll re-open at 80% double-vaxxed either.

It's not the crews, it's the arriving pax having to go into hotel quarantine. Apart from the fact that there isn't enough capacity in hotel quarantine to operate viable loads there is also the issue that who wants to pay $3000 for hotel quarantine and be stuck for 14 days? If the NT Gov't want to persist with Covid-Zero, QF will also bypass DRW and will send QF9/10 via SIN. In some respects, SIN is the easiest option of the lot.

tullamarine wrote:

You're right that the states don't control the border but if a state demands arriving pax have to go into 14 days hotel quarantine then QF will avoid it as there just isn't enough capacity in hotel quarantine to operate services with economic loads.

It's not as much about capacity in hotel quarantine but that the risk of 14 day hotel quarantine would be a demand killer, if WA's track record is to lock down in the face of very low Covid cases and force all incoming passengers in to hotel quarantine then no passenger will want to risk that. I certainly wouldn't. I agree with you that Darwin could end up being similar, while Qantas sees high appeal for these non-stop flights out of Australia I think Singapore would just be the easiest and most hassle-free choice for everyone. QF1/2 for Sydney-Singapore-London, QF9/10 for Melbourne-Singapore-London, and just wait for WA to take up to itself.

All valid points, although hotel quarantine has been managed by the states we have not yet had a situation where this has been completely independent of federal involvement (e.g. no travel ban or arrival caps in place for vaccinated citizens) and I just remain skeptical that with the travel ban and arrival caps potentially removed at Phase 3 that we would have a situation where individual states decide to continue hotel quarantine on arrival for passengers which aren't federally required to complete it.

Which essentially brings things back to my main POV as someone residing in one of those states, which is that it's too early to get a read on where things might go in December, and I think the feeling on the ground is similar. There's prior precedent with both QLD and WA that the state governments rely on underpromising / overdelivering when it comes to the issue of easing restrictions on state border policy (see last year where WA budget estimates said that the hard border with all states and territories would remain until April 2021, only for it to be scrapped/adjusted to a controlled border from November 2020).

Foopz wrote:

All valid points, although hotel quarantine has been managed by the states we have not yet had a situation where this has been completely independent of federal involvement (e.g. no travel ban or arrival caps in place for vaccinated citizens) and I just remain skeptical that with the travel ban and arrival caps potentially removed at Phase 3 that we would have a situation where individual states decide to continue hotel quarantine on arrival for passengers which aren't federally required to complete it.

If they want Covid-Zero, they have no choice but to maintain hotel quarantine. Even WA isn't wacky enough to say we refuse to accept Delta from the eastern states but will accept it if it enters the community via international arrivals.

Which essentially brings things back to my main POV as someone residing in one of those states, which is that it's too early to get a read on where things might go in December, and I think the feeling on the ground is similar. There's prior precedent with both QLD and WA that the state governments rely on underpromising / overdelivering when it comes to the issue of easing restrictions on state border policy (see last year where WA budget estimates said that the hard border with all states and territories would remain until April 2021, only for it to be scrapped/adjusted to a controlled border from November 2020).

QF are trying to establish a timetable. They are not interested in last minute additions or cancellations; they can't make money doing that. Since WA has said they won't accept arrivals from NSW or Victoria for Christmas, it is obvious they won't accept them from any other location that has accepted the reality of ongoing community transmission.

tullamarine wrote:

It is a really unique situation and I'd love to know what the feeling on the ground is.

I think the QLD Premier blows with the general sentiment of the electorate and in this case, there are sadly a lot of Queenslanders who feel that continuing to live in a bubble has little impact on them personally and the perception that COVID zero will keep them 100% safe so are supportive of the government stance. The fact it is not sustainable has no bearing - again, no personal impact for many. The local media doesn't help either - the choice of words to describe the current situation in NSW firmly appeals to that sentiment as does the rhetoric on the 6pm news over one or two local cases.

I am hoping that that sentiment changes and the moment it does, watch the QLD Premier change her position in a nano second. I think it is slowly changing in the SE of the state but anything north of Noosa and its a whole different ball game! I best stop, the mods will think this discussion is straying off topic

I think Queenslanders that want to travel are doing so quite easily throughout the entire state, sans the occasional snap lockdowns. Again, little impact. The pricing of some of the accommodation from Cairns to Coolangatta is crazy which has to be being driven by local state demand - it can't be anything else with NSW/VIC locked out and no international tourism. By way of example, this coming Friday there are 15 x direct flights from BNE-CNS alone across VA, QF and JQ - Queenslanders are travelling, they are just staying within the state!

Velocity7 wrote:

there are sadly a lot of Queenslanders who feel that continuing to live in a bubble

This has been Queensland for the last 100 years, why change now?

Another international airline announcing its return to Australia in December, this time it's Air Canada, although only for SYD-YVR at first and only four days a week. Flights start Dec17 so all the airlines appear to be aligning around that date now.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... n-december

Velocity7 wrote:

tullamarine wrote:

It is a really unique situation and I'd love to know what the feeling on the ground is.

I think the QLD Premier blows with the general sentiment of the electorate and in this case, there are sadly a lot of Queenslanders who feel that continuing to live in a bubble has little impact on them personally and the perception that COVID zero will keep them 100% safe so are supportive of the government stance. The fact it is not sustainable has no bearing - again, no personal impact for many. The local media doesn't help either - the choice of words to describe the current situation in NSW firmly appeals to that sentiment as does the rhetoric on the 6pm news over one or two local cases.

I am hoping that that sentiment changes and the moment it does, watch the QLD Premier change her position in a nano second. I think it is slowly changing in the SE of the state but anything north of Noosa and its a whole different ball game! I best stop, the mods will think this discussion is straying off topic

I think Queenslanders that want to travel are doing so quite easily throughout the entire state, sans the occasional snap lockdowns. Again, little impact. The pricing of some of the accommodation from Cairns to Coolangatta is crazy which has to be being driven by local state demand - it can't be anything else with NSW/VIC locked out and no international tourism. By way of example, this coming Friday there are 15 x direct flights from BNE-CNS alone across VA, QF and JQ - Queenslanders are travelling, they are just staying within the state!

Up until now, I think WA has probably been very similar; apparently Broome was booked solid all winter despite charging extortionate accommodation prices with QF and VA also charging fairly hefty fares to get there from PER. These states have avoided the worst of the pandemic and have even been able to see things they never thought they would such as AFL and NRL finals. WA, in particular, has been buttressed by an economy supported by digging up and sending iron ore to China at a time when these are at all-time high prices.

It is possible that the joys of living in these gilded cages may be coming to an end. Most of the world including the most populous AU eastern states have now moved into a different phase of the pandemic where the disease becomes endemic. This is a stepchange in the mindset of governments, business and the community; it has costs (acceptance that deaths will occur) and benefits (many of your old freedoms can return and, hopefully, the daily case numbers disappear from the front page).

One of the returning benefits will be international travel and this cannot return unless the stepchange is taken; there is no middle ground. Airlines can't operate routes with only 25 pax or when there is an ever-present risk that the rules may change at any time. Passengers won't fly if they have to pay $3000 to spend 2 weeks locked in a hotel or converted mine-camp at the end of their journey. These are irrefutable.

In the next 6 months, Covid-zero states and countries will need to confront how they make the change. It is a case of when not if.

Far from unexpected, international flights still being cancelled due to the caps on arriving passengers. It's not as if the borders have opened and there's an AU-SIN bubble in place already, I feel for anybody eager to get home to Australia but really nothing has changed over the last few months so what's the big deal?

‘Devastating’: Dozens of new flight cancellations leave Australians stranded

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has foreshadowed a reopening of borders when vaccination rates hit 80 per cent but the hopes of scores of Australians trying to get home before Christmas have been shattered by a slew of new flight cancellations over the next three months.
Singapore Airlines delivered the bad news to passengers on Monday night as a fresh round of international flights in October to December were called off.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/devas ... 58rg9.html

CraigAnderson wrote:

Far from unexpected, international flights still being cancelled due to the caps on arriving passengers. It's not as if the borders have opened and there's an AU-SIN bubble in place already, I feel for anybody eager to get home to Australia but really nothing has changed over the last few months so what's the big deal?

‘Devastating’: Dozens of new flight cancellations leave Australians stranded

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has foreshadowed a reopening of borders when vaccination rates hit 80 per cent but the hopes of scores of Australians trying to get home before Christmas have been shattered by a slew of new flight cancellations over the next three months.
Singapore Airlines delivered the bad news to passengers on Monday night as a fresh round of international flights in October to December were called off.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/devas ... 58rg9.html

The airlines are flying blind still...excuse the pun. You can understand why they are keen for both federal and state governments to formally announce what their policies are going forward. There has been talk about both home quarantine and green zones for vaccinated passengers once a state passes 80% but nothing is concrete. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks one of the governments has the confidence to lock in a plan. Currently, you'd think NSW will be first to "lock it in Eddie" but maybe Vic or SA will surprise us.