Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MIflyer12
Posts: 11169
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:38 pm

n757kw wrote:
My carrier does bulk load on the B777-300ER. Pallets and containers on the lower deck. The passenger cabin comes in two versions, no seats and seats. The no seats version, the freight is netted to the cabin floor and boxes in the overhead. The seats version, boxes are in the seats with a wrap system to contain the cargo and boxes in the overhead. Takes 2-4 hours to offload. On our flights it is bulk loaded to the US. The return is just pallets and containers in the lower deck, nothing in the cabin. Have 2 crew members as fire marshals.

N757KW


If it's bulk-loaded to the U.S. but returns substantially empty I have to ask if your non-U.S. workers get anything like U.S. wage rates and work rules? If wage rates are low enough one can justify anything. In the U.S., a 30-foot section of iron water supply pipe is moved by one guy with a $1 Million Caterpillar machine. In China it's twelve guys with 2-meter sections of rope. (Seriously: I observed it in Nanjing.)
 
FGITD
Posts: 2079
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:41 pm

wjcandee wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I fail to see the point of this whole venture. Cargo operations across the board still have some areas that could be greatly improved, but container/palletization is not one


Completely-agree. I think:
(1) As with many of the ventures that Eastern announces -- they want publicity;
(2) They may be gambling on the incredible shortage of equipment in all areas of the supply chain (i.e. water, air, rail, road) as Peak approaches. The idea being that they can maybe field a sub-optimal solution to capitalize on the insane rates that people are now paying and are expected to pay just to get product where it needs to go over the next 6-9 months, and maybe longer. They're betting on the "maybe longer", because they're not gonna be in the market until next year, and so will miss this Peak. The theory, I guess, is that it doesn't matter if it's inefficient if the service can be sold at a profitable price in a time of shortage, inefficiency nothwithstanding, than it's worth doing if the capital investment doesn't eat the profit.

But to broach this as a long-term, 35-plane venture: hahahahahaha. Like I said above, they can announce, test the market, maybe get some takers for the short-term solution. As the market responds back to equilibrium with better solutions and adaptations, any butchering of these aircraft will make it difficult to then put them in the Big Twin conversion line at IAI, which is why I think what they're really going to do is to tie up the frames under option, maybe strip the seats in less than 5 to fit them into Option 1 (just basically interior alteration), and then when they're no longer in demand for this Kluged solution and instead ready for a real conversion, they, and the untouched ones, can be used for that. If they start mucking with them structurally, they're going to be at the end of the line for that more-profitable use in the future.

Again, these things need significant structural alteration to put more than boxes of feathers on the floor, which is why the IAI conversion is already 2 years into engineering and only now starting actual work on the prototype aircraft, despite financial backing from GECAS and aggressive work by IAI's engineers.



My thoughts exactly. This reads like how someone might start a moving service. I have a truck, you have boxes that need to be moved…let’s put 2 and 2 together.

People have stuff to ship, what if we just put it on airplanes?

35 aircraft is also an enormous fleet compared to most cargo carriers, outside of the outliers like UPS and FedEx. And at that, a good portion of their fleets are smaller aircraft.

So beyond the logistical stupidity that is bulk loading a 772, I’m also wondering where on earth they’re finding all this cargo
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:29 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Eastern are to acquire 35 777s for conversion. First for delivery next year suggests conversion under way on one at least.

"In a statement, the passenger carrier said it has acquired thirty-five B777s which it will convert into true, Class-E maindeck freighters that will be capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the United States."

Intriguing reference to 772 as well as 77Ws:

"The innovative design converts the main deck cabin of the widebody B777, the -200, -200ER, and -300 series into a true cargo aircraft. This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -p2f-b777s

First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:17 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Eastern are to acquire 35 777s for conversion. First for delivery next year suggests conversion under way on one at least.

"In a statement, the passenger carrier said it has acquired thirty-five B777s which it will convert into true, Class-E maindeck freighters that will be capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the United States."

Intriguing reference to 772 as well as 77Ws:

"The innovative design converts the main deck cabin of the widebody B777, the -200, -200ER, and -300 series into a true cargo aircraft. This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -p2f-b777s

First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.


Please read the press release. Eastern is planning to submit a STC for 772/7772ER/773(not ER) conversion: "Subject to STC approvals, the Eastern B777 Express Freighter will be a fully certified cargo aircraft with a "Class-E" main deck capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the US. "

In addition, there is no "773 STC P2F" - IAI/GECAS is a 777-300ER conversion, which is not relevant to Eastern's plans here as Eastern is doing their own "conversion" with associated STC(s).
 
UA444
Posts: 3220
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:28 pm

Would these be JL and NH 777s converted?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:51 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Eastern are to acquire 35 777s for conversion. First for delivery next year suggests conversion under way on one at least.

"In a statement, the passenger carrier said it has acquired thirty-five B777s which it will convert into true, Class-E maindeck freighters that will be capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the United States."

Intriguing reference to 772 as well as 77Ws:

"The innovative design converts the main deck cabin of the widebody B777, the -200, -200ER, and -300 series into a true cargo aircraft. This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -p2f-b777s

First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.


Please read the press release. Eastern is planning to submit a STC for 772/7772ER/773(not ER) conversion: "Subject to STC approvals, the Eastern B777 Express Freighter will be a fully certified cargo aircraft with a "Class-E" main deck capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the US. "

In addition, there is no "773 STC P2F" - IAI/GECAS is a 777-300ER conversion, which is not relevant to Eastern's plans here as Eastern is doing their own "conversion" with associated STC(s).

STCs takes a couple of years to do.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6256
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:52 pm

Eastern should be shut down for all their trickery in route announcements
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:03 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.


Please read the press release. Eastern is planning to submit a STC for 772/7772ER/773(not ER) conversion: "Subject to STC approvals, the Eastern B777 Express Freighter will be a fully certified cargo aircraft with a "Class-E" main deck capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the US. "

In addition, there is no "773 STC P2F" - IAI/GECAS is a 777-300ER conversion, which is not relevant to Eastern's plans here as Eastern is doing their own "conversion" with associated STC(s).

STCs takes a couple of years to do.


That is not true. A more significant modification yes, which Eastern readily admits on its website, stating that "Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023. "Option 1" is clearly a "preighter" so it won't have a long lead time. These dates are all posted above, see also: https://goeasternaircargo.com/our-fleet/.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11502
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:19 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
"Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023.


I understand that you are accurately-quoting their press release, but what they are saying is delusional. And Boof is right that it ain't gonna happen. Eastern is going to engineer a full-on conversion? And get an STC for it faster than GECAS and IAI could do it? Dreaming. As it appears they often do.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:27 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Please read the press release. Eastern is planning to submit a STC for 772/7772ER/773(not ER) conversion: "Subject to STC approvals, the Eastern B777 Express Freighter will be a fully certified cargo aircraft with a "Class-E" main deck capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the US. "

In addition, there is no "773 STC P2F" - IAI/GECAS is a 777-300ER conversion, which is not relevant to Eastern's plans here as Eastern is doing their own "conversion" with associated STC(s).

STCs takes a couple of years to do.


That is not true. A more significant modification yes, which Eastern readily admits on its website, stating that "Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023. "Option 1" is clearly a "preighter" so it won't have a long lead time. These dates are all posted above, see also: https://goeasternaircargo.com/our-fleet/.

Passenger cabin floors are not made for heavy freight at all. Modifications have to be done otherwise the floor bearing weight will be over the certification.

And the FAA just doesn’t rubber stamp things anymore.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:31 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Please read the press release. Eastern is planning to submit a STC for 772/7772ER/773(not ER) conversion: "Subject to STC approvals, the Eastern B777 Express Freighter will be a fully certified cargo aircraft with a "Class-E" main deck capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the US. "

In addition, there is no "773 STC P2F" - IAI/GECAS is a 777-300ER conversion, which is not relevant to Eastern's plans here as Eastern is doing their own "conversion" with associated STC(s).

STCs takes a couple of years to do.


That is not true. A more significant modification yes, which Eastern readily admits on its website, stating that "Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023. "Option 1" is clearly a "preighter" so it won't have a long lead time. These dates are all posted above, see also: https://goeasternaircargo.com/our-fleet/.

And it clearly states pending design approval and STC. It clearly shows this process is no where near approved.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:32 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
STCs takes a couple of years to do.


That is not true. A more significant modification yes, which Eastern readily admits on its website, stating that "Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023. "Option 1" is clearly a "preighter" so it won't have a long lead time. These dates are all posted above, see also: https://goeasternaircargo.com/our-fleet/.

Passenger cabin floors are not made for heavy freight at all. Modifications have to be done otherwise the floor bearing weight will be over the certification.

And the FAA just doesn’t rubber stamp things anymore.


Again, please read the press release and other information posted before making critical statements. EA's 777s will not carry heavy freight. From the press release: "This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:34 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
STCs takes a couple of years to do.


That is not true. A more significant modification yes, which Eastern readily admits on its website, stating that "Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023. "Option 1" is clearly a "preighter" so it won't have a long lead time. These dates are all posted above, see also: https://goeasternaircargo.com/our-fleet/.

And it clearly states pending design approval and STC. It clearly shows this process is no where near approved.


Obviously, but your statement that it takes a "couple of years" is false. Not all STCs require years. The fact that there is a caveat that the design is pending and STC approval is necessary does not mean it will take years.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1966
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:47 pm

Is it possible they have any ties or ambitions to work with Amazon Prime? I know Sun Country has dedicated Cargo service for Amazon. It wouldn't be that far fetched to plan on partnering with them somehow. It also would explain not wanting to replace the floors for heavier cargo.

They could also be taking a page out of the old Allegiant playbook when they used to buy their Mad Dogs in bunches but part out some of the aircraft. So perhaps all 35 will not actually see flying time

and one more thought. Since they operate passenger service. Maybe if they figure if the cargo isn't working out, they can keep some as passenger frames.

Only time will tell. This version of Eastern hasn't impressed me much. Sadly I don't see any of these plans working out, but I'm still hoping for them!
 
CoThG
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:51 pm

Could be just trying to tie up frames so ATSG doesn't get their slimy hands on them.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:58 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

That is not true. A more significant modification yes, which Eastern readily admits on its website, stating that "Option 3" with a main cargo door expects STC in 2023. "Option 1" is clearly a "preighter" so it won't have a long lead time. These dates are all posted above, see also: https://goeasternaircargo.com/our-fleet/.

Passenger cabin floors are not made for heavy freight at all. Modifications have to be done otherwise the floor bearing weight will be over the certification.

And the FAA just doesn’t rubber stamp things anymore.


Again, please read the press release and other information posted before making critical statements. EA's 777s will not carry heavy freight. From the press release: "This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."

Which will fail as UPS, FedEx and DHL are larger, have the equipment, infrastructure and door to door service. Eastern is dreaming.

And from their own webpage “ Subject to final design and STC approval”

Maybe you need to read it again as they don’t even have a final design approved by the FAA.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:59 pm

spinkid wrote:
Is it possible they have any ties or ambitions to work with Amazon Prime? I know Sun Country has dedicated Cargo service for Amazon. It wouldn't be that far fetched to plan on partnering with them somehow. It also would explain not wanting to replace the floors for heavier cargo.

They could also be taking a page out of the old Allegiant playbook when they used to buy their Mad Dogs in bunches but part out some of the aircraft. So perhaps all 35 will not actually see flying time

and one more thought. Since they operate passenger service. Maybe if they figure if the cargo isn't working out, they can keep some as passenger frames.

Only time will tell. This version of Eastern hasn't impressed me much. Sadly I don't see any of these plans working out, but I'm still hoping for them!

This won’t work for Amazon. Amazing used containers that are swapped from plane type to plane type and I’m their 18 Wheelers.

And removing seats, lavatories and galleries won’t make them available for passenger use.
 
LTEN11
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:48 pm

This just sounds like it's starting off as a "Preighter" operation, it's not that big a deal to get this done, as long as you follow the rules established. Yes, loading and unloading the main deck will be a pain and time consuming, but who says these aircraft are going to be in a high utilisation schedule ? There is still the ability to carry heavier freight on the lower deck and volume out the main deck with lighter freight, it's not perfect, but it's also not a bad way to get into long haul cargo.

In fact a new Italian airline, Aliscargo has just started up using the same idea, with 777-200's in the preighter configuration, Air Cargo News have a story on them.

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/f ... the-skies/

Hopefully the link works.

The idea may not work in the end, but it just sounds like to many people here assume it can't work because it is being tried by Eastern.
 
User avatar
Miami
Topic Author
Posts: 6358
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:54 pm

For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:13 pm

Miami wrote:
For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.


Right, but do we know what they will be used for? That, passenger or cargo? They had 777s in the passenger operation, but those appear to have been removed (per their website fleet details).
 
CoThG
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Miami wrote:
For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.


Don't need to... They are coming from Thai Airways.
 
User avatar
Miami
Topic Author
Posts: 6358
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:25 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Miami wrote:
For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.


Right, but do we know what they will be used for? That, passenger or cargo? They had 777s in the passenger operation, but those appear to have been removed (per their website fleet details).


The plan is for passengers.
Last edited by Miami on Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:32 am

Miami wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Miami wrote:
For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.


Right, but do we know what they will be used for? That, passenger or cargo? They had 777s in the passenger operation, but those appear to have been removed (per their website fleet details).


The plan is for cargo and then potentially transition into the use for passengers. However, it’s Eastern so take it with a grain of salt.

If you takeout galleys, lavs and seats be quite expensive to convert back.
 
User avatar
Miami
Topic Author
Posts: 6358
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:43 am

Been told they have taken delivery of 10 with the rest due before the end of the year.

Grain of salt.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 8582
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:15 am

CoThG wrote:
Miami wrote:
For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.


Don't need to... They are coming from Thai Airways.


77Ws? I’ll put a big ?? On that. 772s and 773s, definitely possible but 77Ws? They have also list their 77Es for sale. 6 772, 6 77E, 6 773.

http://thaiaircrafttrading.com/aircraft.html?FLEET=B777
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:19 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
CoThG wrote:
Miami wrote:
For those questioning the 777-300ER for Eastern, as mentioned before, I can confirm they will be getting two of them.

Not going to name the source.


Don't need to... They are coming from Thai Airways.


77Ws? I’ll put a big ?? On that. 772s and 773s, definitely possible but 77Ws? They have also list their 77Es for sale. 6 772, 6 77E, 6 773.

http://thaiaircrafttrading.com/aircraft.html?FLEET=B777


Theoretically it could be the BOC 77Ws that were supposed to go to Thai. Seems a stretch that they would get brand new 777Ws, but never know.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 8582
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:22 am

jbs2886 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
CoThG wrote:

Don't need to... They are coming from Thai Airways.


77Ws? I’ll put a big ?? On that. 772s and 773s, definitely possible but 77Ws? They have also list their 77Es for sale. 6 772, 6 77E, 6 773.

http://thaiaircrafttrading.com/aircraft.html?FLEET=B777


Theoretically it could be the BOC 77Ws that were supposed to go to Thai. Seems a stretch that they would get brand new 777Ws, but never know.


Yes, that does seem a stretch.
 
Nimda
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:05 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:57 am

There are several choices for 77Ws to choose from this year. Not only undelivered airframes with Thai livery but Etihad and Air New Zealand are planning to retire the entire fleet. Heard that Philippine is also seeking to return some of them.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 8582
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:04 am

Nimda wrote:
There are several choices for 77Ws to choose from this year. Not only undelivered airframes with Thai livery but Etihad and Air New Zealand are planning to retire the entire fleet. Heard that Philippine is also seeking to return some of them.


NZ have 1 lease return, the rest will be retired by 2027 but no more planned to go before 2025.

You would think 2 brand new TG frames would be picked up by a pax operator, that’s if TG don’t take them. No idea who but someone like BA maybe.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 13280
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:32 am

The undelivered Thai 77Ws are actually BOC’s planes. I have my doubts a leasing company would lease out brand new 77Ws to undergo a questionable STC from a questionable outfit, and I doubt Eastern can afford to purchase even severely discounted new 777Ws from them to take them off their hands.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11502
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:13 pm

Well, the WSJ interviewed Steve Harfst, apparently, and here's some additional color excerpted from the WSJ article. I'm speechless, but no more optimistic.

Regarding the 777s, "Eastern Airlines LLC said it has bought 35 of the wide-body passenger planes being off-loaded by other carriers", including ones with PW4000s. [emphasis added]

The PW4000 ones will be last to go into service (presumably after the FAA lifts its restrictions on them...)

"... it plans to just remove passenger seats and carry packages on the main deck alongside regular cargo in the hold, cutting the conversion time to two weeks at a fraction of the cost of a full aircraft revamp."

Eastern says it already has taken delivery of 10, and it's going to receive the other 25 in the next 3 months. They're all coming from "3 unnamed Asian carriers". Two 777-300ERs will be used for pax service.

"Mr. Harfst said the low cost of the 777 jets being sold off by other carriers and cheap conversion to freighter configuration means it doesn’t have to fly the jets as often to make money, and it plans to introduce eight to 10 of the planes a year."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/eastern-ai ... inor_pos14

The whole thing still seems insane to me. Interesting that they're buying a bunch of PW4000-powered ones.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3029
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:44 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Eastern are to acquire 35 777s for conversion. First for delivery next year suggests conversion under way on one at least.

"In a statement, the passenger carrier said it has acquired thirty-five B777s which it will convert into true, Class-E maindeck freighters that will be capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the United States."

Intriguing reference to 772 as well as 77Ws:

"The innovative design converts the main deck cabin of the widebody B777, the -200, -200ER, and -300 series into a true cargo aircraft. This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -p2f-b777s

First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.

Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3029
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Well, the WSJ interviewed Steve Harfst, apparently, and here's some additional color excerpted from the WSJ article. I'm speechless, but no more optimistic.

Regarding the 777s, "Eastern Airlines LLC said it has bought 35 of the wide-body passenger planes being off-loaded by other carriers", including ones with PW4000s. [emphasis added]

The PW4000 ones will be last to go into service (presumably after the FAA lifts its restrictions on them...)

"... it plans to just remove passenger seats and carry packages on the main deck alongside regular cargo in the hold, cutting the conversion time to two weeks at a fraction of the cost of a full aircraft revamp."

Eastern says it already has taken delivery of 10, and it's going to receive the other 25 in the next 3 months. They're all coming from "3 unnamed Asian carriers". Two 777-300ERs will be used for pax service.

"Mr. Harfst said the low cost of the 777 jets being sold off by other carriers and cheap conversion to freighter configuration means it doesn’t have to fly the jets as often to make money, and it plans to introduce eight to 10 of the planes a year."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/eastern-ai ... inor_pos14

The whole thing still seems insane to me. Interesting that they're buying a bunch of PW4000-powered ones.

PW4000-powered 777s from an Asian carrier? Could it be from Japan Airlines? I'm wondering :scratchchin:
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:39 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
Eastern are to acquire 35 777s for conversion. First for delivery next year suggests conversion under way on one at least.

"In a statement, the passenger carrier said it has acquired thirty-five B777s which it will convert into true, Class-E maindeck freighters that will be capable of carrying a full load of volumetric express cargo non-stop between Asia and the United States."

Intriguing reference to 772 as well as 77Ws:

"The innovative design converts the main deck cabin of the widebody B777, the -200, -200ER, and -300 series into a true cargo aircraft. This allows the entire volume of the main deck cabin to hold low-density, express freight cargo."

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -p2f-b777s

First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.

Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 3029
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:50 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.

Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.

The 773 in work at IAI at TLV is not for EA, is it? So, why mention it in here?
EA said they'd be using Foxtrot Aero LLC to provide the 777 P2F STC, Foxtrot Aero is a subsidiary of Eastern Air Holding (source linked in the first post).

Removing seats, galleys and lavatories doesn't happen overnight; but it doesn't take years either. No heavy maintenance is required for the Express Freighter STC, unless that particular frame does. So, a Q1 2022 EIS is actually possible.
 
UA444
Posts: 3220
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:41 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Well, the WSJ interviewed Steve Harfst, apparently, and here's some additional color excerpted from the WSJ article. I'm speechless, but no more optimistic.

Regarding the 777s, "Eastern Airlines LLC said it has bought 35 of the wide-body passenger planes being off-loaded by other carriers", including ones with PW4000s. [emphasis added]

The PW4000 ones will be last to go into service (presumably after the FAA lifts its restrictions on them...)

"... it plans to just remove passenger seats and carry packages on the main deck alongside regular cargo in the hold, cutting the conversion time to two weeks at a fraction of the cost of a full aircraft revamp."

Eastern says it already has taken delivery of 10, and it's going to receive the other 25 in the next 3 months. They're all coming from "3 unnamed Asian carriers". Two 777-300ERs will be used for pax service.

"Mr. Harfst said the low cost of the 777 jets being sold off by other carriers and cheap conversion to freighter configuration means it doesn’t have to fly the jets as often to make money, and it plans to introduce eight to 10 of the planes a year."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/eastern-ai ... inor_pos14

The whole thing still seems insane to me. Interesting that they're buying a bunch of PW4000-powered ones.

PW4000-powered 777s from an Asian carrier? Could it be from Japan Airlines? I'm wondering :scratchchin:

JAL, ANA, KE, and OZ all have PW ones. Many of which aren’t that old. Still lots of life yet.

UA has 52 they intend on flying for awhile so the type will be supported for quite a while.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:44 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.

Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.


Guess you didn’t see I explained IAI is doing the 777-300ER. Eastern is not planning cargo 777-300ERs, only the regular 777-300. Again, the IAI conversion is irrelevant. Further, Eastern has said it will be seeking STCs, so your opinion that they can’t do it is misplaced. Please stop posting false information.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:43 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.

The 773 in work at IAI at TLV is not for EA, is it? So, why mention it in here?
EA said they'd be using Foxtrot Aero LLC to provide the 777 P2F STC, Foxtrot Aero is a subsidiary of Eastern Air Holding (source linked in the first post).

Removing seats, galleys and lavatories doesn't happen overnight; but it doesn't take years either. No heavy maintenance is required for the Express Freighter STC, unless that particular frame does. So, a Q1 2022 EIS is actually possible.

Heavy maintenance is MOST certainly required to remove seats, galleys, lavs and install the necessary equipment for the cabin to carry cargo.

Guess you’ve never worked modifying an airplane.

You don’t do this work with line maintenance.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:50 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.


Guess you didn’t see I explained IAI is doing the 777-300ER. Eastern is not planning cargo 777-300ERs, only the regular 777-300. Again, the IAI conversion is irrelevant. Further, Eastern has said it will be seeking STCs, so your opinion that they can’t do it is misplaced. Please stop posting false information.

One. Eastern doesn’t have heavy maintenance in-house nor a huge engineering department with experience.

Removing seats, galleys, lavs, PSUs, wiring, fire suppression etc is not done by line maintenance it’s done by heavy maintenance either in-house or at a MRO.

Guess this never happened either.

https://simpleflying.com/eastern-airlin ... hters/amp/

“ However, the budget, charter, and wet lease airline is hoping to get into the cargo market with the acquisition of two dedicated Boeing 777-200 freighters. The decision was discovered through a filing with the US Department of Transportation as reported by Air Cargo News.

Aviator reports that Eastern intends to enter the two freighters into commercial service sometime in the second quarter of this year, once FAA certification is approved. The airline is expecting the certification process for the 777 freighters to be completed on or before the 1st of April, 2021.”

No 772 freighters in their possession, only these two.

Image
 
Cedar
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:01 am

Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
First of all there is NO STC nor program for a 772 to be converted P2F.

Second the very first 773 STC P2F is just happening at IAI at TLV backed by GECAS and the first two planes after conversion and certification are going to Kalitta.

This seems like another far fetched idea by EA.

It takes a couple of year if planning and approval if and when the work starts.

Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.


Eastern has a sister company called FMS, purchased under the parent company last month. They are the ones developing STC.
FMS is a certified repair station for Airbus & Boeing and will be handling the conversion.

Cedar
Last edited by Cedar on Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cedar
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:12 am

Cedar wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Do you even read the replies to your comments?
Eastern wants to develop its own STC; hence, it doesn't exist yet.
Eastern want to do bulk loading; hence won't need the IAI door conversion.

No 773 P2F in current existence, and Eastern wanting to operate a 772 "cargo" plane are not mutually exclusive when you read all the information provided.

Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.


Eastern has a sister company called FMS, purchased under the parent company last month. They are the ones developing STC. They are a certified repair station for Airbus & Boeing and will be handling the conversion.

Cedar
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:54 am

We get Eastern, Southern and Northern for air cargo
When will we see Western?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 6256
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:38 am

chunhimlai wrote:
We get Eastern, Southern and Northern for air cargo
When will we see Western?

Western global
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:05 am

Boof02671 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you didn’t see the previous post that showed the 773 in work at IAI at TLV.

And I doubt EA has the In-house engineering to develop its own STC. And they said they would be removing seats, gallies and lavs. Something that doesn’t happen overnight and EA doesn’t have its own heavy maintenance.


Guess you didn’t see I explained IAI is doing the 777-300ER. Eastern is not planning cargo 777-300ERs, only the regular 777-300. Again, the IAI conversion is irrelevant. Further, Eastern has said it will be seeking STCs, so your opinion that they can’t do it is misplaced. Please stop posting false information.

One. Eastern doesn’t have heavy maintenance in-house nor a huge engineering department with experience.

Removing seats, galleys, lavs, PSUs, wiring, fire suppression etc is not done by line maintenance it’s done by heavy maintenance either in-house or at a MRO.

Guess this never happened either.

https://simpleflying.com/eastern-airlin ... hters/amp/

“ However, the budget, charter, and wet lease airline is hoping to get into the cargo market with the acquisition of two dedicated Boeing 777-200 freighters. The decision was discovered through a filing with the US Department of Transportation as reported by Air Cargo News.

Aviator reports that Eastern intends to enter the two freighters into commercial service sometime in the second quarter of this year, once FAA certification is approved. The airline is expecting the certification process for the 777 freighters to be completed on or before the 1st of April, 2021.”

No 772 freighters in their possession, only these two.

Image

Eastern has connections to Jet Midwest Group (owner of Jet Midwest has 50% in EA). Jet Midwest Group has MRO ops and a varied fleet of used 777s under them.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 11502
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:35 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
That suggests much cheaper feedstock, but at the same time a shorter lifespan.

As the first frame is due for delivery in Q1/22 it should now or soon be under conversion - we should know the underlying frame type soon.


I think the Q1 '22 reference relates to when they're talking about having an STC for it.

They said the "conversion" will take 2 weeks.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3250
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:40 pm

One poster has said "Removing seats, galleys and lavatories doesn't happen overnight". From my heavy mtc experience it actually does happen overnight. The cabin would not be ready for cargo, but a motivated crew can strip the cabin of seats and galleys in just a couple of shifts. It's not fun, but can be done.

I'm waiting for the next announcement. Eastern Cargo will become the exclusive transporter of Mike Lindell's direct marketed "My Pillow".
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:18 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
One poster has said "Removing seats, galleys and lavatories doesn't happen overnight". From my heavy mtc experience it actually does happen overnight. The cabin would not be ready for cargo, but a motivated crew can strip the cabin of seats and galleys in just a couple of shifts. It's not fun, but can be done.

I'm waiting for the next announcement. Eastern Cargo will become the exclusive transporter of Mike Lindell's direct marketed "My Pillow".

No way in hades does seats, galleys and lavs are removed overnight.

Totally impossible. No way in 16 hours.

I’ve worked in heavy maintenance before.
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:10 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
[Eastern has secured the acquisition of 35 B777 aircraft as feedstock

could mean as little as obtained an option to buy.

That's a long way from funding the purchase and funding the cargo coversions, let alone actually having the customers under contract to justify flying 35 freight 777s.


Ten-thousand-percent correct. It may not be stupid from a leasing company perspective to take options on retired 777s for conversion, because I think the Big Twin is going to be a huge success. However, the idea that a bulk-loaded 777 makes any sense is hilarious.

Lots of airlines are using bulk loading right now because of the cargo demand.

The other thing people are ignoring is it’s quite possible these flights could be profitable on the lower cargo holds alone. Down there they can carry heavier containerized products.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 3128
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:47 pm

flightsimer wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
[Eastern has secured the acquisition of 35 B777 aircraft as feedstock

could mean as little as obtained an option to buy.

That's a long way from funding the purchase and funding the cargo coversions, let alone actually having the customers under contract to justify flying 35 freight 777s.


Ten-thousand-percent correct. It may not be stupid from a leasing company perspective to take options on retired 777s for conversion, because I think the Big Twin is going to be a huge success. However, the idea that a bulk-loaded 777 makes any sense is hilarious.

Lots of airlines are using bulk loading right now because of the cargo demand.

The other thing people are ignoring is it’s quite possible these flights could be profitable on the lower cargo holds alone. Down there they can carry heavier containerized products.

As temporary to generate money. Some had seats removed some didn’t. They moved PPE which isn’t heavy.

Using cabin cargo isn’t efficient to run a permanent all cargo flights.
 
MO11
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Eastern Airlines launches Eastern Air Cargo

Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:21 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Eastern has connections to Jet Midwest Group (owner of Jet Midwest has 50% in EA). Jet Midwest Group has MRO ops and a varied fleet of used 777s under them.


I think it's the other way around. Owner of Eastern has 50% of Jet Midwest and 100% of Alta Airline Holdings.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos