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wjcandee
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Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:02 pm

Citation 560X with 4 aboard crashes into field and explodes into building after taking off from, the FAA says, Robertson Field Airport in Plainville, CT, en route to North Carolina. https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/jet-with- ... nnecticut/

Oddly, FlightAware doesn't show a Citation departing from that airport this morning (K4B8), although it does show other traffic.
 
MO11
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:11 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Citation 560X with 4 aboard crashes into field and explodes into building after taking off from, the FAA says, Robertson Field Airport in Plainville, CT, en route to North Carolina. https://nypost.com/2021/09/02/jet-with- ... nnecticut/

Oddly, FlightAware doesn't show a Citation departing from that airport this morning (K4B8), although it does show other traffic.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N560AR
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:21 pm

MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Oddly, FlightAware doesn't show a Citation departing from that airport this morning (K4B8), although it does show other traffic.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N560AR


You, as always, are The Man! Interesting, though, that even when you click on the airport in that Flightaware route, it doesn't show the departure. (Oh...maybe I have to set it so that it shows fragments of flights?) Anyway, you're of course on top of it with the tail number and everything! We don't say enough how valuable are your contributions to this forum!!
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:22 pm

FlightAware picked up the flightplan, but no tracking info. I am guessing it didn't make it high enough to get picked up on radar. The images of the fiery wreckage don't inspire too much confidence in a recovery of life. Sad.
 
JBirdAV8r
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:34 pm

That airport has a really short runway (less than 3700 feet) and Trumpf is right off the end of the runway...

Never flown a Citation, but that's gotta be pushing its performance limit. Whatever happened must have happened fast. Wonder what the weather and load were like.
 
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zeke
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:02 pm

JBirdAV8r wrote:
That airport has a really short runway (less than 3700 feet) and Trumpf is right off the end of the runway...

Never flown a Citation, but that's gotta be pushing its performance limit. Whatever happened must have happened fast. Wonder what the weather and load were like.


3560 ft at MTOW

https://cessna.txtav.com/-/media/cessna ... chure.ashx
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:13 am

Here's a better link . . . https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20210902-0

This includes a pic from Twitter that looks brutal. RIP to those killed. Godspeed to family members and those traumatized by being close to this crash.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:51 am

I got an alert from Cirium (a Lexis/Nexis aviation service) this morning which stated that the aircraft failed to climb after takeoff, lost altitude, and crashed. "The point of impact was more or less on the extended centreline of the runway, some 400m after the runway threshold." It was believed to have been operated by Interstate Aviation, the FBO at that airport.

From my own view, it looks like a photo of the aircraft is on Interstate's web site, and their Twitter is offering thanks for condolences from their loss of "friends and family" in the accident.

Cirium says the accident happened in VMC at 10am local time.
 
Okie
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:23 pm

wjcandee wrote:
I got an alert from Cirium (a Lexis/Nexis aviation service) this morning which stated that the aircraft failed to climb after takeoff, lost altitude, and crashed. "The point of impact was more or less on the extended centreline of the runway, some 400m after the runway threshold." It was believed to have been operated by Interstate Aviation, the FBO at that airport.

From my own view, it looks like a photo of the aircraft is on Interstate's web site, and their Twitter is offering thanks for condolences from their loss of "friends and family" in the accident.

Cirium says the accident happened in VMC at 10am local time.


Trying to be nice but with the only the information here, testing CAT with gust locks in place on a 560 has happen before.

Okie
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:13 pm

Okie wrote:
[

Trying to be nice but with the only the information here, testing CAT with gust locks in place on a 560 has happen before.

Okie


And not just on a 560; perhaps most famously in Bedford by some nitwits on a G4 who hadn't used a checklist in years*, so competent and knowledgeable were they.

*(No exaggeration: Data showed they failed to do a pre-departure flight-control check in 98 percent of their last 175 takeoffs. Wow.)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:17 pm

So they've released the names here. Two young married doctors from Boston were the pax. Pilots William O'Leary (who shows in the AirNav database as the airport manager, consistent wih the expectation that this aircraft was operated by Interstate Aviation, the FBO and flight school operator at the airport), and Mark Morrow, both in their late 50s. There's already a sweet article, behind a paywall, in a local paper about Morrow, that his whole life was about flying, and a nice picture of him and his wife standing in what probably is the accident aircraft. https://www.newstimes.com/local/article ... 434142.php
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:49 pm

Elsewhere, Excel XLS pilots are homing in on a STAB not in the proper position. The plane’s stab is commanded, by flap setting, in either of two positions—one flaps at 7 degrees or further extended OR flaps UP. While it could be mechanical failure, a previous accident resulted in an overrun when flaps weren’t set to a take-off setting, the crew tried to extend them “on the roll” and couldn’t rotate, went off the end. Issue is flaps take about 7 seconds to make 7, but the stab takes more like 22 seconds. Tragic, indeed.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:21 pm

wjcandee wrote:
I got an alert from Cirium (a Lexis/Nexis aviation service) this morning which stated that the aircraft failed to climb after takeoff, lost altitude, and crashed. "The point of impact was more or less on the extended centreline of the runway, some 400m after the runway threshold." It was believed to have been operated by Interstate Aviation, the FBO at that airport.

From my own view, it looks like a photo of the aircraft is on Interstate's web site, and their Twitter is offering thanks for condolences from their loss of "friends and family" in the accident.

Cirium says the accident happened in VMC at 10am local time.

Forgot the flaps? Or did someone put DEF in the fuel again?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:25 pm

These photos are interesting, they were trying to stop approaching the DER.

https://ab8.org/n560ar/
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
These photos are interesting, they were trying to stop approaching the DER.

https://ab8.org/n560ar/


Sure seems that way. Remarkable they travelled as far as they did, then. RTO after V1? Mechanical failure?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:57 pm

wjcandee wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
These photos are interesting, they were trying to stop approaching the DER.

https://ab8.org/n560ar/


Sure seems that way. Remarkable they travelled as far as they did, then. RTO after V1? Mechanical failure?


Or, as speculated elsewhere, couldn’t rotate due to STAB position.
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:37 pm

Okie wrote:
Trying to be nice but with the only the information here, testing CAT with gust locks in place on a 560 has happen before.


Almost impossible to leave the control locks in on an XL/XLS, you have to put the yoke in a very awkward (aft) position to put the control locks in. To the point where its difficult to engage them sometimes, and hard to get in and out of the seat with them in. Very obvious as the controls sit in a very non-neutral position with them in.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Elsewhere, Excel XLS pilots are homing in on a STAB not in the proper position. The plane’s stab is commanded, by flap setting, in either of two positions—one flaps at 7 degrees or further extended OR flaps UP. While it could be mechanical failure, a previous accident resulted in an overrun when flaps weren’t set to a take-off setting, the crew tried to extend them “on the roll” and couldn’t rotate, went off the end. Issue is flaps take about 7 seconds to make 7, but the stab takes more like 22 seconds. Tragic, indeed.


And even with the stab in the proper position, the XL/XLS needs a huge amount of back pressure to rotate. It was my first type-rating, and I thought that was normal. Then I remember the first sim of my next type-rating. Hauled it off the runway at Vr how I was used-to doing and totally over-rotated because it didn't need anywhere close to the force of the XL/XLS to get off the ground.

The moveable stab was (apparently) added very late in the game, as the XL was found to be almost impossible to rotate normally during flight tests. So the moveable stab was introduced, it moves into the take-off position when flaps are moved from the zero position. And it takes a L O N G time to move as you say. Also have to be careful after takeoff that you don't accelerate too soon after selecting flap zero, as if you exceed the speed limit the stab stops moving and you can end up seriously out of trim.

As an ex-XL/XLS pilot, the flap/stab theory is far more credible than the control lock one.

Looking at the photos, that airfield looks absolutely lethal. No runway end safety area, straight onto a road and multiple obstacles. Short runway and presumably unfactored (private) performance figures. I wouldn't be comfortable with that aircraft on that runway. The XL/XLS is a rocket ship as far as takeoff performance goes... both a blessing and a curse, but I wouldn't want to be dealing with a rejected takeoff on a runway that short.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:52 pm

APG showed, with an educated guess at weights, BFL of 2800-ish on 3665 of TORA, so not horrible numbers, but I agree the airport is marginal for jet ops despite years of being used by Citations. I’ve been in some short runways in 2500 hours on CE-550/550, but didn’t fly later versions.

BTW, there’s no “factoring” on take-off data, unlike landing.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:52 pm

Never flown a CE560 but found this information for those interested... (Thanks to all who have weighed in to help understand some of the idiosyncracies of the CE560)

Cessna Citation XLS

Horizontal Stabilizer Description

The two-position horizontal stabilizer system automatically repositions the aircraft’s horizontal stabilizer to improve flight characteristics.

The horizontal stabilizer positions to one of two positions: a +1 degree (cruise) or –2 degree (takeoff). The angle of incidence position depends on the flap handle position and airspeed by moving the entire horizontal stabilizer. When airspeed is greater than 215 knots ±10, the airspeed switch disables the arming valve preventing stabilizer movement to the –2° position.

Airspeed Switch

The airspeed switch senses airspeed from the standby pitot static system and enables or disables the horizontal tail from downward movement towards the takeoff and approach position or upward movement towards the cruise position— based upon the airspeed sensed. The horizontal tail is enabled if airspeed is less than 215 ±10 knots; or disabled it if airspeed is greater than 215 ±10 knots. It is behind the copilot side panel, above the armrest.

The STAB MIS COMP light illuminates to indicate the horizontal stab position does not agree with the flap handle position after 30 seconds of travel. (Unless the Landing Gear is also selected, then the delay is 40 seconds).

Stabilizer Monitoring System

The two-position horizontal stabilizer control system is controlled by a flap-handle position and airspeed. With the flap-handle in the FLAPS UP detent position the horizontal stabilizer has an incidence of +1°. With the flap handle in any position other than the FLAPS UP detent and the airspeed no greater than 215 ± 10kts, the horizontal stabilizer has an incidence of –2°.

The horizontal stabilizer cannot move down to an incidence of –2° if theairspeed is greater than 215 ± 10 kts. It is prevented from moving in either direction if the landing gear is in motion. The two-position tailprinted circuit board (N2017) monitors the horizontal stabilizer position. The circuit board flashes the amber STAB MIS COMP annunciator and illuminates the MASTER CAUTION RESET switchlight under the following conditions:

• Anytime the flap handle is not in the “FLAPS UP” detent position and the stabilizer has not reached the incidence of –2° within the predetermined time limit of 30 seconds.
• Anytime the flap handle is in the “FLAPS UP” detent position and the stabilizer has not reached the incidence of +1 within the predetermined time limit of 30 seconds.
• Anytime the PCB senses flap handle selected up and flap-handle is selected down concurrently.
 
hivue
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:57 am

Is that a trimable horizontal stab or is it always only at either +1 deg or -2 deg except when in motion to those settings? Does -2 represent the required takeoff trim or is pitch trim handled some other way?
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BTW, there’s no “factoring” on take-off data, unlike landing.


There certainly is for public transport operations in Europe, which is how I operated the aircraft.
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:12 am

hivue wrote:
Is that a trimable horizontal stab or is it always only at either +1 deg or -2 deg except when in motion to those settings? Does -2 represent the required takeoff trim or is pitch trim handled some other way?


The aircraft has an electric trim system with split switches like any other, but the moveable stab has been described above. The movement of the Stab from the Flap Zero position to Flap not Zero position is not trimable, and vice versa. The moveable stab is a big trim change, and quite distinct from the normal trim system.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:12 am

How do they factor the runway length? By which I mean, do they require the TORR/TODR must be less than the TORA/TODA by a certain percentage? Never heard of it.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:32 am

If witnesses are correct, plane was at TO power while brakes were applied. Hard to explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmWltLbCLOI
 
JohnJ
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 pm

Witnesses are apparently correct according to the NTSB: https://www.wfsb.com/news/ntsb-investig ... _id=994091
 
zuckie13
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:24 am

Wow, that's pretty bad. If the need to bring the power up before starting the roll, is it normal to use the parking brake, or the manual brakes? I'd think the later. If that's the case, wouldn't it be pretty clear when they tried to taxi that the parking brake was on?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:25 am

zuckie13 wrote:
Wow, that's pretty bad. If the need to bring the power up before starting the roll, is it normal to use the parking brake, or the manual brakes? I'd think the later. If that's the case, wouldn't it be pretty clear when they tried to taxi that the parking brake was on?


Unless they lined up, then were waiting on something so they set the brakes and forgot to take them off. Obviously no configuration warning for brakes on past a certain power position?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:44 am

Here’s the NTSB preliminary,

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ ... 103791/pdf

It says the parking handle and valve were consistent with set, but it won’t taxi far in that condition. It’s theoretically possible, if the handle was out, brake applications during taxi could trap some pressure in the parking brake causing reduced acceleration. There is CVR to be transcribed.

A standing take-off is done using the toe brakes, not the parking brake.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:54 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
Wow, that's pretty bad. If the need to bring the power up before starting the roll, is it normal to use the parking brake, or the manual brakes? I'd think the later. If that's the case, wouldn't it be pretty clear when they tried to taxi that the parking brake was on?


Unless they lined up, then were waiting on something so they set the brakes and forgot to take them off. Obviously no configuration warning for brakes on past a certain power position?


Yeah, the NTSB report said that the parking brake is not part of the takeoff configuration alarm.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:35 pm

It's certainly a before-takeoff checklist item. Also, anybody who regularly flew in and out of that field. as these guys did, should have been able to recognize that the aircraft was not accelerating normally, and aborted the takeoff. This is unfortunately a thousand percent pilot error. I feel bad for everybody involved.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:01 pm

This is very similar to a crash of a DC-8-63 of Capitol Airways at Anchorage in November 1970. They attempted take-off with the brakes on, but on the icy runway it wasn’t apparent to the pilots.

As far as I recall, it was never determined if the parking brake was set, or if the brakes froze engaged after a long taxi and stopping on the runway.

At one of my previous operators, Wardair, it was SOP that the parking brake could never be used on the runway before takeoff, only foot brakes.
 
jumbojettony
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:07 pm

Not sure if its related but there was a Citation Ultra that rejected its takeoff after V1 at CYYZ a few months ago. Allegedly the brakes were sticking and the aircraft wasnt able to liftoff. The brakes ended up catching fire as they exitted the runway but luckily the runway was long enough for them to reject even after V1.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:58 pm

jumbojettony wrote:
Not sure if its related but there was a Citation Ultra that rejected its takeoff after V1 at CYYZ a few months ago. Allegedly the brakes were sticking and the aircraft wasnt able to liftoff. The brakes ended up catching fire as they exitted the runway but luckily the runway was long enough for them to reject even after V1.


That's interesting. It seems like the NTSB report that both the handle and valve were in the applied position tends to indicate that the sticking was due to a control that they failed to release. But interesting nonetheless.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:29 pm

Interesting Australian accident, similar design, effects.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5770811/a ... -final.pdf
 
wjcandee
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interesting Australian accident, similar design, effects.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5770811/a ... -final.pdf


Most amazing statement in the first couple of pages: "...[t]he Cessna 'before take-off' checklist does not include a check to ensure the parking brake is disengaged." :shock: :shock: :shock:
 
KCaviator
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:24 am

Why is the safety record amongst private jet operators so awfully bad? I'd be embarrassed to be a corporate pilot. When will something change?
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:52 am

KCaviator wrote:
Why is the safety record amongst private jet operators so awfully bad? I'd be embarrassed to be a corporate pilot. When will something change?


Lots of reasons.

First, the thing about corporate/charter operations is that they really run the gamut outfits that would rival any special missions government squadron in the world to some really terrible operators. Lots of the safety mechanisms aren't as robust as they are at airlines.

Second, in charter operations, the margins are razor thin, and their often undue pressure on flight crews to make mission.

Third, the training at many corporate/charter operations is provided by third party operations who often aren't as willing to fail bad students as an airline.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Citation 560X Crash In Connecticut

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:36 am

KCaviator wrote:
Why is the safety record amongst private jet operators so awfully bad? I'd be embarrassed to be a corporate pilot. When will something change?


It isn’t really, most of the in-production jets have zero hull losses—4,000 Gulfstream G550, 650 and 280, Globals, Challenger 300/350, DA-7X with zero fatal losses. Flight ops accidents are so rare, the few are stand-outs. Corporate jets are used in many ways that airlines wouldn’t contemplate—small airports, Truckee or Plainville for example.

I run a corporate SMS, we have most of airline’s program including FDM, Audits, emergency response, etc.

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