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Deltabravo1123
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Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:41 pm

Don't believe I've seen this discussed yet.

Lufthansa is debuting a new short/medium haul Airspace cabin. Seats looks decent and semi-comfortable. I have always thought many of the major European carriers retain a low-cost carrier appeal on cabins like this. Wish they added some color as well... very dull and minimalistic. Yet, looking forward to reading and watching reviews on these new interiors, and hopefully trying them out one day.

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardinga ... -aircraft/

Image
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:03 pm

The seats aren't new, newer Lufthansa short-haul aircraft already have them.

Only the airspace cabin with bigger overhead lockers etc is new to Lufthansa, but many airlines already have it. BA's latest A320neos have it, as well as recent A321neo deliveries to American Airlines and JetBlue. I'm sure there are more.
 
spartanmjf
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:33 am

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardinga ... -new-seat/
29" pitch? Lufthansa? Swiss?
This ranks up there with Spirit.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:51 am

spartanmjf wrote:
https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2018/04/11/aix18-geven-and-lufthansa-group-launch-their-new-seat/
29" pitch? Lufthansa? Swiss?
This ranks up there with Spirit.

This is the norm across Europe, Asia (on narrowbodies) and Oceania.

Michael
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:16 am

So much for LH trying to market itself as a "premium" carrier, of which it is quite far from being. A cut above many, yes probably, but not at the lofty levels envisioned by its leadership.
 
DCA350
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:22 am

Guess I'll be the spoiled American, but I see why ULCCs do so well in Europe.. They are essentially using the same hard product in economy..
 
Fliplot
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:33 am

The servuce provided in European business class is superior to American domestiv first class, by yards!
 
CRJockey
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:04 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
So much for LH trying to market itself as a "premium" carrier, of which it is quite far from being. A cut above many, yes probably, but not at the lofty levels envisioned by its leadership.


I am quite sure the leadership knows what they envision and what they wanna achieve. Always keeping in mind what the customers are willing to pay more for more amenities on flights mostly around and hour, like another cm of space (nothing), a more colourful interior (nothing), better serve of drinks (nothing), food (nothing),…

We customers get what we ask for, being in cheap meat, flights, electronics of subpar quality, etc…
 
CRJockey
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:07 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Guess I'll be the spoiled American, but I see why ULCCs do so well in Europe.. They are essentially using the same hard product in economy..


Spoiled American? Haha, I have yet to experience a pleasant domestic experience. Whatever carrier you chose: in Y it is a seat and,…nothing. Exactly what you pay for and not vastly different, let alone superior, to any of the Y classes I flew around the five flyable continents.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:32 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
So much for LH trying to market itself as a "premium" carrier, of which it is quite far from being. A cut above many, yes probably, but not at the lofty levels envisioned by its leadership.


With status you get a much better experience than with the LCC. Seats in front of the over wing exits are more spacious and are reserved for status pax at check in if not reserved/paid before. Then most ULCCs do “pre boarding”, which basically means they board you into an enclosed area, while the incoming plane just lands. This makes you needing to arrive at the airport much earlier. Most of my intra Europe flights are under 90minutes, so most people don’t care much about seating (I do about pitch, given my size (195cm), but I know most which are less than 180cm don’t)…
 
marcogr12
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:29 pm

spartanmjf wrote:
https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2018/04/11/aix18-geven-and-lufthansa-group-launch-their-new-seat/
29" pitch? Lufthansa? Swiss?
This ranks up there with Spirit.


actually i've travelled recently with all three LH group carriers, LH,LX,OS and because they have installed the new slimline seats, the legroom is great! ok, so i am not tall, 5' 9'' but still it was comfy, which is not what people say for AAs 738s when they fly economy
 
spartanmjf
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:00 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
spartanmjf wrote:
https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2018/04/11/aix18-geven-and-lufthansa-group-launch-their-new-seat/
29" pitch? Lufthansa? Swiss?
This ranks up there with Spirit.


actually i've travelled recently with all three LH group carriers, LH,LX,OS and because they have installed the new slimline seats, the legroom is great! ok, so i am not tall, 5' 9'' but still it was comfy, which is not what people say for AAs 738s when they fly economy


AA is terrible across the board in narrowbody economy but their minimum of 30" is better. Ryanair has 30".

29" is tight. And if one reads the article, it tapers to 28" in the rear of the cabin. Sorry, not what I expect of Swiss, Lufthansa, Austrian, etc.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:30 am

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
Don't believe I've seen this discussed yet.

Lufthansa is debuting a new short/medium haul Airspace cabin. Seats looks decent and semi-comfortable. I have always thought many of the major European carriers retain a low-cost carrier appeal on cabins like this. Wish they added some color as well... very dull and minimalistic. Yet, looking forward to reading and watching reviews on these new interiors, and hopefully trying them out one day.

https://economyclassandbeyond.boardinga ... -aircraft/

Image


With the exception of international premium cabins, this matters little once all passengers are seated.

That said, sidewalls and bulkheads can make the cabin seem from the 1970s or more modern times.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:38 am

CRJockey wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
So much for LH trying to market itself as a "premium" carrier, of which it is quite far from being. A cut above many, yes probably, but not at the lofty levels envisioned by its leadership.


I am quite sure the leadership knows what they envision and what they wanna achieve. Always keeping in mind what the customers are willing to pay more for more amenities on flights mostly around and hour, like another cm of space (nothing), a more colourful interior (nothing), better serve of drinks (nothing), food (nothing),…

We customers get what we ask for, being in cheap meat, flights, electronics of subpar quality, etc…


LH spent millions a few years ago on a new livery and branding. One of the key objectives of the work was to convey a premium airline.

It’s all marketing spin.

Specific to the Y cabin, it’s never “premium”, regardless of the airline. Some are simply a little better than the average.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:30 am

Fliplot wrote:
The servuce provided in European business class is superior to American domestiv first class, by yards!


You keep telling yourself that, with the enthusiasm from a 2x 8Kg carry-on allowance with a Lufthansa business or F ticket. A lowly Basic Economy ticket with DL or AA gets more than that. You've been brainwashed to accept mediocrity. Space is the greatest luxury on a plane.
 
superjeff
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:39 am

CRJockey wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
So much for LH trying to market itself as a "premium" carrier, of which it is quite far from being. A cut above many, yes probably, but not at the lofty levels envisioned by its leadership.


I am quite sure the leadership knows what they envision and what they wanna achieve. Always keeping in mind what the customers are willing to pay more for more amenities on flights mostly around and hour, like another cm of space (nothing), a more colourful interior (nothing), better serve of drinks (nothing), food (nothing),…

We customers get what we ask for, being in cheap meat, flights, electronics of subpar quality, etc…


Only with regard to lounge access and meals on flights under 2 1/2 hours or so. At least American carriers' domestic First Class has decent seats with decent leg room.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:51 am

Fliplot wrote:
The servuce provided in European business class is superior to American domestiv first class, by yards!



Don't think there's much value in arguing whether US or European carriers are "superior" in short-haul or domestic first. It varies by aircraft, airline, route, and market. That said, a lot of European airlines have that weird space blocked off between the window and aisle seat but otherwise pretty standard. Some European airlines have better hot food than their US counterparts. Some US carriers on some US domestic routes have a better product than their European counterparts. My point is there's really no way to make a blanket statement like that.
 
kameleonten
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:56 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Fliplot wrote:
The servuce provided in European business class is superior to American domestiv first class, by yards!


You keep telling yourself that, with the enthusiasm from a 2x 8Kg carry-on allowance with a Lufthansa business or F ticket. A lowly Basic Economy ticket with DL or AA gets more than that. You've been brainwashed to accept mediocrity. Space is the greatest luxury on a plane.


Agreed. While many Euro carriers offer an experience superior to or on par with their American counterparts when it comes to service by the flight attendants, food and hot towels, what really matters and is the only thing that can motivate the excess cost is seat pitch and the seats themselves. Show me a large European airline which on intra-euro flights have the type of dedicated, comfortable seats in business class that the US carriers all have in First. And before getting into average stage length, the US carriers offer these on flights in length equivalent to most intra-euro flights as well. In Europe at best you will get a Y class seat with the middle blocked off, although that's not a given with all of them either any more...
Last edited by kameleonten on Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bourbon
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:19 am

Lufthansa service is average on narrow body. Anyone that says Euro Carrier seats are better than AA (which is awful) are full of it. BA charges for a stupid cup of awful coffee or soda in Eco. That’s LCC service. I’d take a US domestic first seat with no food or drink over an economy seat with the middle seat blocked any day.
 
emre787
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:51 pm

kameleonten wrote:
Show me a large European airline which on intra-euro flights have the type of dedicated, comfortable seats in business class that the US carriers all have in First.

Turkish Airlines :spin:
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:23 pm

Aeroflot
 
kameleonten
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:29 pm

emre787 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
Show me a large European airline which on intra-euro flights have the type of dedicated, comfortable seats in business class that the US carriers all have in First.


Turkish Airlines :spin:


Delta777Jet wrote:
Aeroflot


Yes, I know technically both of those count as European and both SVO and IST are technically within what is geographical Europe but I believe we can agree that the conversation did not center around players like these, in a similar way as to when one doesn't primarily consider HA and AS when discussing the main US carriers.

Bring on the flames...
 
DCA350
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:44 pm

CRJockey wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Guess I'll be the spoiled American, but I see why ULCCs do so well in Europe.. They are essentially using the same hard product in economy..


Spoiled American? Haha, I have yet to experience a pleasant domestic experience. Whatever carrier you chose: in Y it is a seat and,…nothing. Exactly what you pay for and not vastly different, let alone superior, to any of the Y classes I flew around the five flyable continents.


I try and fly B6 as much as I can domestically, and I find their seats in Y quite comfortable 33-34" pitch. Mint is also an amazing product, but I wouldn't expect that offered on most Intra European routes given the average stage lengths..
 
AMP44
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:02 pm

kameleonten wrote:
emre787 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
Show me a large European airline which on intra-euro flights have the type of dedicated, comfortable seats in business class that the US carriers all have in First.


Turkish Airlines :spin:


Delta777Jet wrote:
Aeroflot


Yes, I know technically both of those count as European and both SVO and IST are technically within what is geographical Europe but I believe we can agree that the conversation did not center around players like these, in a similar way as to when one doesn't primarily consider HA and AS when discussing the main US carriers.

Bring on the flames...

Other European airlines flying proper business class seats are Iberia on some A319, TAP has two types on the A321NEO: long haul ones and the Primera Air recliner ones, Aer Lingus the A321NEO, TAROM on some 737s, Air Serbia (think they discontinued it after Etihad).

Yes, IB, TP, EI, TO and JU are not airlines that can compare to LH, but it's because they are on the "edge" of Europe and their flights tend to be longer. Compare to LH, KL, AF or LX that are all mostly in the middle of Europe.
 
kameleonten
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:10 pm

AMP44 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
emre787 wrote:

Turkish Airlines :spin:


Delta777Jet wrote:
Aeroflot


Yes, I know technically both of those count as European and both SVO and IST are technically within what is geographical Europe but I believe we can agree that the conversation did not center around players like these, in a similar way as to when one doesn't primarily consider HA and AS when discussing the main US carriers.

Bring on the flames...

Other European airlines flying proper business class seats are Iberia on some A319, TAP has two types on the A321NEO: long haul ones and the Primera Air recliner ones, Aer Lingus the A321NEO, TAROM on some 737s, Air Serbia (think they discontinued it after Etihad).

Yes, IB, TP, EI, TO and JU are not airlines that can compare to LH, but it's because they are on the "edge" of Europe and their flights tend to be longer. Compare to LH, KL, AF or LX that are all mostly in the middle of Europe.


The key here was "large" - which rules out most of the examples. I flew TAP on a 4.5 hour leg to Lisbon in business recently and the seat was a joke...however, I did not know about the IB A-319 which certainly checks the relevant boxes so I stand corrected.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:24 pm

AMP44 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
emre787 wrote:

Turkish Airlines :spin:


Delta777Jet wrote:
Aeroflot


Yes, I know technically both of those count as European and both SVO and IST are technically within what is geographical Europe but I believe we can agree that the conversation did not center around players like these, in a similar way as to when one doesn't primarily consider HA and AS when discussing the main US carriers.

Bring on the flames...

Other European airlines flying proper business class seats are Iberia on some A319, TAP has two types on the A321NEO: long haul ones and the Primera Air recliner ones, Aer Lingus the A321NEO, TAROM on some 737s, Air Serbia (think they discontinued it after Etihad).

Yes, IB, TP, EI, TO and JU are not airlines that can compare to LH, but it's because they are on the "edge" of Europe and their flights tend to be longer. Compare to LH, KL, AF or LX that are all mostly in the middle of Europe.

Sooner or later if SK uses their A321 LRs on short-haul then we can add them to the list. If anything TP and EI probably come close to mind for *Continental Europe* as they both plan on using those aircraft often on short-haul flights.

Still which A319 does IB have the seats on and any pictures of that configuration?
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:11 pm

Aer Lingus uses the A321neo with its business class seat on a number of short haul routes, it can been seen on the morning rotations to LHR, MAD, FCO and CDG while a daily ACE has also operated this summer. The reduced transatlantic schedule has of course enabled this to happen on a wider basis but it was always the plan by Aer Lingus to introduce the product on popular European routes during what would otherwise be downtime for the aircraft between transatlantic hops.

However, this cabin isn’t sold as a full business product, you get most of the usual perks of European business class but without the bespoke catering, you’re just offered a complimentary item from the standard buy on board menu which is currently very limited. Ironically this product is marketed as ‘AerSpace’ not to be confused with the very different Airbus offering of a similar name!

As for ‘Airspace’ itself, it’s okay but nothing special. It’s certainly not the leap that Boeing’s Sky Interior was but that’s largely because the standard A320 family cabin was already a decent offering, it always felt ahead of the 737 in that respect. Some of the ‘Airspace’ details are interesting but none of them are aesthetically much of an improvement, the bins are bigger but look old fashioned, the side panels and window trim are unnecessary and actually make the cabin look cluttered and the addition of mood lighting isn’t exactly new or unique.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:16 pm

kameleonten wrote:
emre787 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:
Show me a large European airline which on intra-euro flights have the type of dedicated, comfortable seats in business class that the US carriers all have in First.


Turkish Airlines :spin:


Delta777Jet wrote:
Aeroflot


Yes, I know technically both of those count as European and both SVO and IST are technically within what is geographical Europe but I believe we can agree that the conversation did not center around players like these, in a similar way as to when one doesn't primarily consider HA and AS when discussing the main US carriers.

Bring on the flames...



Adding to the stage length idea construct discussed above - perhaps this too favors SVO (political issues aside), and moreso IST who can, really use that range, and the benefit of passengers who would connect, and employ those more authentic business class experiences. In that way, 'centrally located' within the E.U.'s geographic boundaries, and with the open market policy, hubs and their carriers would face not only lesser demand (as their stage lengths are lower), but also potentially greater LCC intrusion.
 
N47
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:27 am

superjeff wrote:
At least American carriers' domestic First Class has decent seats with decent leg room.


Especially in the AA A321Ts if we can count that. I found that even the Y cabin felt a bit more cozy probably because it was smaller.

As for the new LH interior, its very similar to other carriers apart from the colors. I didnt realize seat pitch was that low as someone who is 198cm that would suck especially in medium long haul flight.
 
AMP44
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:13 am

lesfalls wrote:
AMP44 wrote:
kameleonten wrote:



Yes, I know technically both of those count as European and both SVO and IST are technically within what is geographical Europe but I believe we can agree that the conversation did not center around players like these, in a similar way as to when one doesn't primarily consider HA and AS when discussing the main US carriers.

Bring on the flames...

Other European airlines flying proper business class seats are Iberia on some A319, TAP has two types on the A321NEO: long haul ones and the Primera Air recliner ones, Aer Lingus the A321NEO, TAROM on some 737s, Air Serbia (think they discontinued it after Etihad).

Yes, IB, TP, EI, TO and JU are not airlines that can compare to LH, but it's because they are on the "edge" of Europe and their flights tend to be longer. Compare to LH, KL, AF or LX that are all mostly in the middle of Europe.

Sooner or later if SK uses their A321 LRs on short-haul then we can add them to the list. If anything TP and EI probably come close to mind for *Continental Europe* as they both plan on using those aircraft often on short-haul flights.

Still which A319 does IB have the seats on and any pictures of that configuration?

Here's a picture of the seats on the IB A319. Shows that the A319s that are active have this seats.
Image
 
superjeff
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:02 pm

N47 wrote:
superjeff wrote:
At least American carriers' domestic First Class has decent seats with decent leg room.


Especially in the AA A321Ts if we can count that. I found that even the Y cabin felt a bit more cozy probably because it was smaller.

As for the new LH interior, its very similar to other carriers apart from the colors. I didnt realize seat pitch was that low as someone who is 198cm that would suck especially in medium long haul flight.


FWIW, I am 183cm/6'0" and find regular Economy seats pretty miserable on a longer flight, especially since the "High Density" seating everybody's going to seem like wooden boards :-(.
 
superjeff
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:07 pm

AMP44 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
AMP44 wrote:
Other European airlines flying proper business class seats are Iberia on some A319, TAP has two types on the A321NEO: long haul ones and the Primera Air recliner ones, Aer Lingus the A321NEO, TAROM on some 737s, Air Serbia (think they discontinued it after Etihad).

Yes, IB, TP, EI, TO and JU are not airlines that can compare to LH, but it's because they are on the "edge" of Europe and their flights tend to be longer. Compare to LH, KL, AF or LX that are all mostly in the middle of Europe.

Sooner or later if SK uses their A321 LRs on short-haul then we can add them to the list. If anything TP and EI probably come close to mind for *Continental Europe* as they both plan on using those aircraft often on short-haul flights.

Still which A319 does IB have the seats on and any pictures of that configuration?

Here's a picture of the seats on the IB A319. Shows that the A319s that are active have this seats.
Image



the key word here is "SOME". I can assure you that I've flown numerous Iberia A319's, A320's, and A321's around Europe (MAD-VIE, MAD-BER primarily_ and they've all had the "Eurobusiness" seating in J, and the Economy class has got what has to be a 29" pitch. No better than the ULLC's. The US 3's Economy class has degenerated to about 30" of pitch now, which seems a bit better, but if you're sitting in a seat for 3 hours, it seems no difference. Remember that, due to the size of the U.S., a domestic flight is generally longer than an intra-European flight (for example JFK-DFW is about 4 hours, LGA is about 3 hours, etc., not counting the transcon routes over here. You can fly London -Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam in a bit over an hour; cities like Milan, Stockhom, Oslo, Copenhagen, Madrid/Barcelona in about 2 hours. Big difference there.
 
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lugie
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:49 pm

superjeff wrote:
the key word here is "SOME". I can assure you that I've flown numerous Iberia A319's, A320's, and A321's around Europe (MAD-VIE, MAD-BER primarily_ and they've all had the "Eurobusiness" seating in J, and the Economy class has got what has to be a 29" pitch. No better than the ULLC's. The US 3's Economy class has degenerated to about 30" of pitch now, which seems a bit better, but if you're sitting in a seat for 3 hours, it seems no difference. Remember that, due to the size of the U.S., a domestic flight is generally longer than an intra-European flight (for example JFK-DFW is about 4 hours, LGA is about 3 hours, etc., not counting the transcon routes over here. You can fly London -Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam in a bit over an hour; cities like Milan, Stockhom, Oslo, Copenhagen, Madrid/Barcelona in about 2 hours. Big difference there.


The geographical aspect is true to an extent but on the other hand you'll have US airlines flying those proper First/Business class seat on the plethora of feeder flights that exist in the US for lack of viable ground transportation too. Even on regionals, pretty much everything bigger than a CRJ-200 will have at least 2-3 rows of big seats and those are used on flights like LGA-PIT, DCA-BNA, LAX-SFO, ORD-MSN, RDU-PHL, DFW-MOB and whatnot. For transcons you'll increasingly find fully lie-flat offers like AA's 321Ts or B6's Mint, let alone the widebody turns that have significantly increased recently as domestic travel has rebounded and transatlantic flying continues to be at a fraction of pre-covid levels.

I've sat in an F seat that reminded me of my grandpa's TV recliner chair on a flight from RDU to LGA with an airtime of just over an hour.
Meanwhile in Europe you can fly from ARN/HEL to MAD/LIS, a solid 4-5 hour flight, and if you're not extremely lucky and get one of the A319s in IB's subfleet or one of TP's 321neos doing a Euro turn, you'll spend those in a seat that is materially the same as those 6 rows behind you in Y.

I don't think it's provocative or controversial to state that hard-product wise, US Domestic First beats European Business class. The soft offering (food and drinks services) are a whole separate conversation.
 
superjeff
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Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:17 pm

lugie wrote:
superjeff wrote:
the key word here is "SOME". I can assure you that I've flown numerous Iberia A319's, A320's, and A321's around Europe (MAD-VIE, MAD-BER primarily_ and they've all had the "Eurobusiness" seating in J, and the Economy class has got what has to be a 29" pitch. No better than the ULLC's. The US 3's Economy class has degenerated to about 30" of pitch now, which seems a bit better, but if you're sitting in a seat for 3 hours, it seems no difference. Remember that, due to the size of the U.S., a domestic flight is generally longer than an intra-European flight (for example JFK-DFW is about 4 hours, LGA is about 3 hours, etc., not counting the transcon routes over here. You can fly London -Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam in a bit over an hour; cities like Milan, Stockhom, Oslo, Copenhagen, Madrid/Barcelona in about 2 hours. Big difference there.


The geographical aspect is true to an extent but on the other hand you'll have US airlines flying those proper First/Business class seat on the plethora of feeder flights that exist in the US for lack of viable ground transportation too. Even on regionals, pretty much everything bigger than a CRJ-200 will have at least 2-3 rows of big seats and those are used on flights like LGA-PIT, DCA-BNA, LAX-SFO, ORD-MSN, RDU-PHL, DFW-MOB and whatnot. For transcons you'll increasingly find fully lie-flat offers like AA's 321Ts or B6's Mint, let alone the widebody turns that have significantly increased recently as domestic travel has rebounded and transatlantic flying continues to be at a fraction of pre-covid levels.

I've sat in an F seat that reminded me of my grandpa's TV recliner chair on a flight from RDU to LGA with an airtime of just over an hour.
Meanwhile in Europe you can fly from ARN/HEL to MAD/LIS, a solid 4-5 hour flight, and if you're not extremely lucky and get one of the A319s in IB's subfleet or one of TP's 321neos doing a Euro turn, you'll spend those in a seat that is materially the same as those 6 rows behind you in Y.

I don't think it's provocative or controversial to state that hard-product wise, US Domestic First beats European Business class. The soft offering (food and drinks services) are a whole separate conversation.


I don't disagree with you at all. But the U.S. market has dictated the need for a wider seat in the higher class of service, with more legroom as well. For quite some time, the airlines have used it to provide free upgrades to their elite level frequent flyers, which is probably why the soft product has cheapened. Lounges are a different situation, as the airlines years ago "invited" certain flyers into them for free, but they ended up in a lawsuit claiming discrimination, which resulted in a wholesale change to paid membership "clubs" that anybody can join, with a couple of major exceptions, namely international Business Class and First Class passengers, and Alaska Airlines, which provides complimentary access to their own clubs (where they have them - which is quite limited) for all first class passengers. There's a reason that even most of our domestic commuter fleets (except for the E135/145's and CRJ200's) now have at least 6 1 x 2 premium cabin seats: the market is demanding it.
 
Av8tor
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:36 pm

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:25 pm

DCA350 wrote:
I try and fly B6 as much as I can domestically, and I find their seats in Y quite comfortable 33-34" pitch. Mint is also an amazing product, but I wouldn't expect that offered on most Intra European routes given the average stage lengths..


I recently flew to LHR on B6 and their Mint and Core product is amazing. Service was exceptional.
 
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reidar76
Posts: 621
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:38 pm

kameleonten wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Fliplot wrote:
The servuce provided in European business class is superior to American domestiv first class, by yards!


You keep telling yourself that, with the enthusiasm from a 2x 8Kg carry-on allowance with a Lufthansa business or F ticket. A lowly Basic Economy ticket with DL or AA gets more than that. You've been brainwashed to accept mediocrity. Space is the greatest luxury on a plane.


Agreed. While many Euro carriers offer an experience superior to or on par with their American counterparts when it comes to service by the flight attendants, food and hot towels, what really matters and is the only thing that can motivate the excess cost is seat pitch and the seats themselves. Show me a large European airline which on intra-euro flights have the type of dedicated, comfortable seats in business class that the US carriers all have in First. And before getting into average stage length, the US carriers offer these on flights in length equivalent to most intra-euro flights as well. In Europe at best you will get a Y class seat with the middle blocked off, although that's not a given with all of them either any more...


I'm one of those frequent euro-business class passengers. The product is not about the on board experience or service. It is not about lounge access etc. It is actually more a business fare than a business class. LCC also have business tickets. When flying short haul, I really don't care about the seats. Just get me to my destination when I'm ready to go.

The product is all about time. Saving me time. I usually (pre-covid) take a train to the airport. As my local airport is quite small, only about 7-8 million passengers annually, I can arrive with the train only 30 minutes before scheduled departure time. Have done it in 20 minutes as well.

So why do I pay a business fare on domestic or inter-EU flights? Boarding pass on my phone, absolutely no waiting time thru security, walk over to the gate and scan the boarding pass in the self service gates. If I miss the flight, no problem. I will get a seat on the next flight, even if it is fully booked on some airlines. They will just offer a student some cash to wait for the next flight. And on the airline I most frequently travel with, I'm not charged for the ticket before I have actually travelled, so no problems with the accounting department. I can also book tickets on more than one flight, as I might not know which flight I'm able to catch. I'm only charged for the ticket that I accually use.

Usually I have meetings in the business area in the airport, or in a hotel close by. After the meeting I fly home. Flying back the same day is very common for euro-business travellers, as the flight time is short. If we're finish the meeting early, no problem. I just walk up to the gate, even if I don't have a ticket for that flight, even if it says gate closing, the friendly gate crew will fix that and I'm on the flight. It matters much more to me to be back home with my family an hour earlier, than having a slightly larger seat on that less than 1 hour flight. There isn't really any time for on board service. I happy with a cup of coffee on the morning flight, and glass of wine on the return flight home.

And during rush-hour, the middle seat is not kept vacant.
 
oldannyboy
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:33 pm

spartanmjf wrote:
https://economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com/2018/04/11/aix18-geven-and-lufthansa-group-launch-their-new-seat/
29" pitch? Lufthansa? Swiss?
This ranks up there with Spirit.


And so does the onboard service concept....
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:36 pm

AMP44 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
AMP44 wrote:
Other European airlines flying proper business class seats are Iberia on some A319, TAP has two types on the A321NEO: long haul ones and the Primera Air recliner ones, Aer Lingus the A321NEO, TAROM on some 737s, Air Serbia (think they discontinued it after Etihad).

Yes, IB, TP, EI, TO and JU are not airlines that can compare to LH, but it's because they are on the "edge" of Europe and their flights tend to be longer. Compare to LH, KL, AF or LX that are all mostly in the middle of Europe.

Sooner or later if SK uses their A321 LRs on short-haul then we can add them to the list. If anything TP and EI probably come close to mind for *Continental Europe* as they both plan on using those aircraft often on short-haul flights.

Still which A319 does IB have the seats on and any pictures of that configuration?

Here's a picture of the seats on the IB A319. Shows that the A319s that are active have this seats.
Image


Please. They have like TWO?? :rotfl:
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 312
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:34 pm

The chances of catching a long haul configured narrow body (IB/TP) is the same as catching a wide bony doing intra Europe runs. Can happen, but rare. Otherwise, people don’t pay for the seats on a 60 to 90min flights.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 502
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:12 pm

lugie wrote:
superjeff wrote:
the key word here is "SOME". I can assure you that I've flown numerous Iberia A319's, A320's, and A321's around Europe (MAD-VIE, MAD-BER primarily_ and they've all had the "Eurobusiness" seating in J, and the Economy class has got what has to be a 29" pitch. No better than the ULLC's. The US 3's Economy class has degenerated to about 30" of pitch now, which seems a bit better, but if you're sitting in a seat for 3 hours, it seems no difference. Remember that, due to the size of the U.S., a domestic flight is generally longer than an intra-European flight (for example JFK-DFW is about 4 hours, LGA is about 3 hours, etc., not counting the transcon routes over here. You can fly London -Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam in a bit over an hour; cities like Milan, Stockhom, Oslo, Copenhagen, Madrid/Barcelona in about 2 hours. Big difference there.


The geographical aspect is true to an extent but on the other hand you'll have US airlines flying those proper First/Business class seat on the plethora of feeder flights that exist in the US for lack of viable ground transportation too. Even on regionals, pretty much everything bigger than a CRJ-200 will have at least 2-3 rows of big seats and those are used on flights like LGA-PIT, DCA-BNA, LAX-SFO, ORD-MSN, RDU-PHL, DFW-MOB and whatnot. For transcons you'll increasingly find fully lie-flat offers like AA's 321Ts or B6's Mint, let alone the widebody turns that have significantly increased recently as domestic travel has rebounded and transatlantic flying continues to be at a fraction of pre-covid levels.

I've sat in an F seat that reminded me of my grandpa's TV recliner chair on a flight from RDU to LGA with an airtime of just over an hour.
Meanwhile in Europe you can fly from ARN/HEL to MAD/LIS, a solid 4-5 hour flight, and if you're not extremely lucky and get one of the A319s in IB's subfleet or one of TP's 321neos doing a Euro turn, you'll spend those in a seat that is materially the same as those 6 rows behind you in Y.

I don't think it's provocative or controversial to state that hard-product wise, US Domestic First beats European Business class. The soft offering (food and drinks services) are a whole separate conversation.


I took a trip to Spain last week from the US in J... IAH-EWR-MAD on UA/ AGP-FRA-IAH on LH. European business class is just .... different. American carriers win the battle on seating, and airlines like Lufthansa win the battle on food/drink and lounges. Simple as that, different models both with positives and negatives. The food on LH both onboard and in the lounges is miles better then UA *most* of the time in my experience.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14691
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Lufthansa to launch new Airspace cabin

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:14 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Guess I'll be the spoiled American, but I see why ULCCs do so well in Europe.. They are essentially using the same hard product in economy..


It's the other way round. After the ULCCs became a thing network airlines found out that airline customers in Europe are willing to pay for lots of things, but space on an economy seat was not among those.

Best regards
Thomas

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