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crownvic
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Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:44 am

To start, this thread is not intended to be a A vs B thread and hopefully, it will not turn into it, because personally there is no war anymore and the white flag needs to go up so that Boeing can just regroup. As an American and full of national pride, I am sickened of the embarrassment Boeing has brought my country. This once proud company continues on a path to oblivion. By looking at their product line, what could have been successful products, has turned into one disaster after another. Here are some points to note:

737 Max- Self explanatory
767F - About the only thing they are currently doing right.
777X Program - The FAA continues to bury this program due to an uncontrolled pitch issue on a test flight amongst other issues.
787 - Production halted due to QC issues of which many are sub-contractor related
KC-46 - A proven airframe, that they just cannot get right as a tanker, due to boom related issues
Rocket Program - SLS full of delays.

Is Boeing damaged beyond repair? Have they lost so many engineers to their bean counter mentality, that nobody with a brain or any good ideas wants to work there anymore? Let's face it, this is a disaster hands down and a good reason for Airbus' success has been amplified by Boeing's incompetence. Can anyone tell me what they are doing right anymore? Do they have a plan to right this company from being a capsized ship? Reading trade publications like AW&ST and Flight Global, there just does not seem to be anything good for the immediate future for this once great company.

So instead of making this an A vs B thread, what opinions do people have to get Boeing back on track or is this no longer possible? Could Lockheed Martin spend billions to offer any commercial program viable to even think of competing with Airbus? Am I overreacting to Boeing's early demise?
 
Newark727
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:13 am

Sometimes reading about Boeing right now kind of reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon I once saw, where a man in a business suit is standing by a campfire in the dark, explaining to some children, "The world may have been destroyed, but for a moment, we created some beautiful value for shareholders."
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:18 am

Boeing simply needs to get back to doing the simple things right.

1. Start by getting a healthier balance sheet, and accounting standards that actually make sense instead of the silly financial engineering that 'make' profits early but have close to nothing in the long run other than forward losses.

2. Invest more money in research and development, and actually keep hold of your most talented engineers.

3. Have management that realizes that the company is only going to be there long term if there are products that meet a certain quality.

Lockheed Martin is a long shot. They would need to invest in a narrow body program,then have something in the wide body sphere. The only way it makes sense for Lockheed to enter the market is if people are sure that Boeing is on a death spiral; even then, it would take over $30 billion to get two new programs to compete in the narrow body and wide body product ranges. It would take more than a decade to see this come to fruition.

It is far easier trying to make Boeing work than getting Lockheed back into commercial aviation.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:54 am

You forgot to mention the troublesome, much delayed and way over-budget Starliner capsule program...
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:02 am

Interesting.. in military circles it is Boeing saving everyone from a Lockheed Martin monopoly.

Lockheed has guaranteed profit, and government revenue for decades. Boeing has to go in low with fixed priced contracts and absorb all the risk to win contracts.

In commercial aviation Boeing can easily be hurt by customers. Lockheed would not have a bar of it.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:54 am

crownvic wrote:
To start, this thread is not intended to be a A vs B thread and hopefully, it will not turn into it, because personally there is no war anymore and the white flag needs to go up so that Boeing can just regroup. As an American and full of national pride, I am sickened of the embarrassment Boeing has brought my country. This once proud company continues on a path to oblivion. By looking at their product line, what could have been successful products, has turned into one disaster after another. Here are some points to note:

737 Max- Self explanatory
767F - About the only thing they are currently doing right.
777X Program - The FAA continues to bury this program due to an uncontrolled pitch issue on a test flight amongst other issues.
787 - Production halted due to QC issues of which many are sub-contractor related
KC-46 - A proven airframe, that they just cannot get right as a tanker, due to boom related issues
Rocket Program - SLS full of delays.

Is Boeing damaged beyond repair? Have they lost so many engineers to their bean counter mentality, that nobody with a brain or any good ideas wants to work there anymore? Let's face it, this is a disaster hands down and a good reason for Airbus' success has been amplified by Boeing's incompetence. Can anyone tell me what they are doing right anymore? Do they have a plan to right this company from being a capsized ship? Reading trade publications like AW&ST and Flight Global, there just does not seem to be anything good for the immediate future for this once great company.

So instead of making this an A vs B thread, what opinions do people have to get Boeing back on track or is this no longer possible? Could Lockheed Martin spend billions to offer any commercial program viable to even think of competing with Airbus? Am I overreacting to Boeing's early demise?


Don’t forget to mention they have a huge hole in their line up 737 to 787 and Airbus is cleaning their clock with the A320/21 with over 10 thousand orders. They should have re-engined the 75/76. They ended the 747 were I believe orders would have kept coming. Their factory in SC is horrible. And while they cut a person’s 32k a year pension. Top executives who have bliss on their hands all got millions in bonuses.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:07 am

I would love to have failures that sell as well as the Boeing failures.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:31 am

The compensation structure for Boeing executives at this stage is build on small fixed salaries and huge bonusses.

Those bonusses are linked to stock value, which is build on buy backs, dividents, rosy outlooks and pride.

Free cash flow is consumed to boost stock value short term, taking stock holders for a ride. Pushing out investment, hiding debts, cutting corners, overpromising and looking happy.

The compensation system for executives must be modified asap. It gives totally wrong incentives instead of long term health. Somehow the board wants to stick with it, succesfully seducing the (short term greedy) stock holders..

Newark727 wrote:
Sometimes reading about Boeing right now kind of reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon I once saw, where a man in a business suit is standing by a campfire in the dark, explaining to some children, "The world may have been destroyed, but for a moment, we created some beautiful value for shareholders."


:checkmark: :worried:
Last edited by keesje on Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:41 am

There is quite a bit of truth in it. But I see this as some overall problem with many industries in many countries that went from banks to stock financing.
Especially long term investments and saving money for future investments are not encouraged by the entire system. However short term tuning the stock for year end bonuses is instead of spending money for longer return investments.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:27 am

Dont worry...when the next generation electric powered airliners are gonna be built, they will both go out of business... :duck: :stirthepot:
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:53 am

seahawk wrote:
I would love to have failures that sell as well as the Boeing failures.

The problem is not how well their planes sell, it is in how poor the workmanship is. They are doing repeat work on the MAX, they are only starting with the 787 and no one knows if these fixes will apply to the in service fleet.

You have issues with the 777X certification..........

If the aviation market was no a duopoly, Boeing would have gone the way of McD.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:08 am

For a long time I wondered if LM would jump on the Embraer opportunity, focussing on Regionals and Defense.

Giving LM an opening for replacing the geriatic C130 line. Building in a JV and assembling E2's, E3's on US soil.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:22 am

keesje wrote:
The compensation structure for Boeing executives at this stage is build on small fixed salaries and huge bonusses.

Those bonusses are linked to stock value, which is build on buy backs, dividents, rosy outlooks and pride.

Free cash flow is consumed to boost stock value short term, taking stock holders for a ride. Pushing out investment, hiding debts, cutting corners, overpromising and looking happy.

The compensation system for executives must be modified asap. It gives totally wrong incentives instead of long term health.

Perfect summary of why Boeing is in the hellscape that it finds itself, and why it won't be exiting any time soon.

American Vulture-Capitalism at its most visible: slowly strangling the lifeblood out of its largest exporter.

So sad.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:12 am

Boeing will be fine. I also think people underestimate how difficult it is to turn a company like Boeing around. Boeing did not get here overnight, so it won’t get out of it overnight but it’s one day at a time. Luckily for them as someone pointed out it’s a duopoly so that helps tremendously. But I think they are focusing on the right things at the moment. Sorting out the 787 problems (a pre max Boeing will definitely not have done that) and sorting out the 777X. You cannot ask customers to come and buy new planes when the ones they’ve ordered you’ve not even fixed them. They’ve created some stability on the MAX which is great, customers are enjoying it and they’re delivering them again as and when customers want them with no quality complaints. They are investing heavily in their current line up to get it up to the standard that it needs to be. The board has heavily improved over the past two years. You have an airline pilot and multiple engineers with aviation experience which is great. The latest update on the 787 issues shows me that yes they are not there but things are working. The Boeing employees that represent the FAA actually blocked Boeing’s attempt to restart the deliveries, they are not on the same page which looks stupid but at least that aspect of the business is beginning to work. It wasn’t working before which is a major reason why we got here. This crisis both Covid and MAX will make Boeing a better company than before I think. But it will take a very long time and you will continue to see articles that say all sorts for also a very long time. When the time comes for Boeing to invest in a new plane I think they’ll have the tools to be able to do that. The right board that will help them make the right decisions both on talent and on general planning, a strong balance sheet and customers that are actually willing to buy new stuff.

But with Boeing you have to be patient. They are better today than they were 2 years ago and I’m sure they will be better 2 years from now. I might be seen as being optimistic but honestly, for it to get worse than it is, they must probably have to get another crash like the MAX.

Think back to 2018, Boeing was looking unstoppable but no one knew that was when the company was actually at its worst from the inside, but Boeing has its laundry out on the curb and it can never go back in, they’ll always been looked at with a microscope and that will help them get back to where they need to be. But as for now. One day at a time
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:40 am

Opus99 wrote:
Think back to 2018, Boeing was looking unstoppable but no one knew that was when the company was actually at its worst from the inside


Agree. We have to think that while reality was known (look back on a.net / Leeham), the rush blocked objectivity & enormous damage was done to the company.

IMO the orchestrated, cultivated focus on Quaterly free cash flow, drained the company. Not only from cash, but from good people, credibility and energy too. Inning huge bonusses 2010-2018 despite all the bombcraters & absesses, made the Board feel Invincible !
 
NZ321
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:38 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
The compensation structure for Boeing executives at this stage is build on small fixed salaries and huge bonusses.

Those bonusses are linked to stock value, which is build on buy backs, dividents, rosy outlooks and pride.

Free cash flow is consumed to boost stock value short term, taking stock holders for a ride. Pushing out investment, hiding debts, cutting corners, overpromising and looking happy.

The compensation system for executives must be modified asap. It gives totally wrong incentives instead of long term health.

Perfect summary of why Boeing is in the hellscape that it finds itself, and why it won't be exiting any time soon.

American Vulture-Capitalism at its most visible: slowly strangling the lifeblood out of its largest exporter.

So sad.


Agreed. You said it well. And it ain't over. More is coming (not only for Boeing) unless we move things in another direction.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:51 pm

What makes us think that LM is a better run company, the F-35 program?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:08 pm

I think the bottom is past in Boeing. Twelve months from now things will look a lot different. MAX will be delivering in significant quantities, 787 back on track and the 777X on its way to certification. Cash flow and earnings will be nicely positive and probably best in the industry again as they did reduce overhead so much. That will give them the pricing power to get back lost market share in the single aisle space with new orders could be back to 50:50.

Focusing on the existing product portfolio for the next 5 years (other than derivatives) or so is probably their best route forward.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:36 pm

seahawk wrote:
I would love to have failures that sell as well as the Boeing failures.

Number of sales =/= making profit.
Not all sales are good sales...
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:38 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
The compensation structure for Boeing executives at this stage is build on small fixed salaries and huge bonusses.

Those bonusses are linked to stock value, which is build on buy backs, dividents, rosy outlooks and pride.

Free cash flow is consumed to boost stock value short term, taking stock holders for a ride. Pushing out investment, hiding debts, cutting corners, overpromising and looking happy.

The compensation system for executives must be modified asap. It gives totally wrong incentives instead of long term health.

Perfect summary of why Boeing is in the hellscape that it finds itself, and why it won't be exiting any time soon.

American Vulture-Capitalism at its most visible: slowly strangling the lifeblood out of its largest exporter.

So sad.


The shareholders will never vote or change their current structure, why should they? Boeing will be very messy for decades, if not until its demise.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:02 pm

crownvic intended this to be a topic on valid long term strategies to strenghten US civil aerospace. In my opinion Boeing executive rewards structure should be a topic. Not per se paying them less, but redefining strategic goals. The US government / tax payer added so much the bottom-line, in a hundred ways, it seems justified they have a say, as #1 stakeholder.
 
estorilm
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:17 pm

crownvic wrote:
To start, this thread is not intended to be a A vs B thread and hopefully, it will not turn into it, because personally there is no war anymore and the white flag needs to go up so that Boeing can just regroup. As an American and full of national pride, I am sickened of the embarrassment Boeing has brought my country. This once proud company continues on a path to oblivion. By looking at their product line, what could have been successful products, has turned into one disaster after another. Here are some points to note:

737 Max- Self explanatory
767F - About the only thing they are currently doing right.
777X Program - The FAA continues to bury this program due to an uncontrolled pitch issue on a test flight amongst other issues.
787 - Production halted due to QC issues of which many are sub-contractor related
KC-46 - A proven airframe, that they just cannot get right as a tanker, due to boom related issues
Rocket Program - SLS full of delays.

Is Boeing damaged beyond repair? Have they lost so many engineers to their bean counter mentality, that nobody with a brain or any good ideas wants to work there anymore? Let's face it, this is a disaster hands down and a good reason for Airbus' success has been amplified by Boeing's incompetence. Can anyone tell me what they are doing right anymore? Do they have a plan to right this company from being a capsized ship? Reading trade publications like AW&ST and Flight Global, there just does not seem to be anything good for the immediate future for this once great company.

So instead of making this an A vs B thread, what opinions do people have to get Boeing back on track or is this no longer possible? Could Lockheed Martin spend billions to offer any commercial program viable to even think of competing with Airbus? Am I overreacting to Boeing's early demise?


I just want to mention that as far as their rocket programs are concerned, SLS has been going well - their ABSURDLY embarrassing attempts at getting Starliner to function correctly are the issues I believe you speak of.

Also the boom is the one of many KX-46 issues, the USAF has listed fuel leaks as a "Cat 1 deficiency" and they've also found hardware and tools in the wings and other areas after delivery, etc etc. (which seems to be a common theme with Boeing for whatever reason).

I think it all comes down to management, it might take a while to rear its ugly head, but eventually a company with a poor management culture will trickle down into safety, efficient, innovation, etc. Throw in a pinch of corruption (either with upper-level employees, or govt. contracts, etc) and you incentivize this type of behavior further. This is also directly responsible for their long-term strategy and planning, which has been severely lacking for decades now (and again, it usually TAKES decades for that to really show).

As for Lockheed, there are number of issues with that. One, Boeing doesn't want to (or really need to) sacrifice their rather large piece of the commercial airliner pie for a potential rival - again, they just need a complete top-down reorganization of the entire company. At this point the whole thing needs to be blown up. They have the CAPACITY and capability to do some amazing things. Get the sleazy politically-motivated penny-pinchers out of there and get some younger forward-thinking engineers and management staff in.

Also, Lockheed is quite happy with their government contracts, and I don't think there's much (if any) room for expansion into an EXTREMELY competitive market. They'd really only be able to help with technical issues, and again - Boeing's issues are (in my opinion) almost entirely management-related.

Third, I really believed Lockheed when they said they'd be out of the commercial airliner industry forever (though somewhat implied). Again, they don't need it, and it hasn't treated them well since the dawn of the jet age. It's sad, because they could do some incredible things.

If Lockheed DOES ever decide to launch another commercial airliner project, I certainly hope it has NOTHING to do with Boeing. Competition is good, and Lockheed seems to have a good track record of getting rather impossible things accomplished.

Edit: Looking over the previous posts, many seem to have much greater insight into what I call a "management issue" as far as executive incentives, shareholders, etc .. but it seems to be the common theme here for sure.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:37 pm

The position Boeing is in today was arrived at thanks to huge Wall Street pressure to gut engineering departments/personnel, outsource as much as possible inorder to maximize quarterly profits. You could change the whole board and senior management structure, but it's still going to be subjected to those same pressures. Unless a consortium with incredibly deep pockets decides takes Boeing private (very unlikely, at least at this point in time), I'm not sure you're ever going to be able to. The long term effect is stagnation and obviously there's a lot of parallels with McDonnell Douglass in it's final decade or so.

How much money was saved by laying off thousands of engineers? How much money did the 737MAX crashes and subsequent grounding cost?

How much money was saved by laying off thousands of engineers? How much is it costing Boeing for the Air Force to have halted KC46 deliveries for the second or third time due to QC issues?

How much money was saved by laying off thousands of engineers? How much does it cost for no 787s having been delivered since April? We're currently well into September...

How much money was saved by laying off thousands of engineers? How much are the extended delays of the 777X program costing thanks to 1) extra scrutiny thanks to the 737MAX debacle and 2) the FAA refusing permission for them to progress to the next testing phase due to Boeing's inadequate response to the 777X's unexplained pitch control event?

The list goes on.

I wonder if the long term eventuality of all this is much of the company being spun-off bit by bit.

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
Boeing simply needs to get back to doing the simple things right.

1. Start by getting a healthier balance sheet, and accounting standards that actually make sense instead of the silly financial engineering that 'make' profits early but have close to nothing in the long run other than forward losses.

2. Invest more money in research and development, and actually keep hold of your most talented engineers.

3. Have management that realizes that the company is only going to be there long term if there are products that meet a certain quality.


:checkmark: Fully agree.


LAX772LR wrote:
American Vulture-Capitalism at its most visible: slowly strangling the lifeblood out of its largest exporter.


:checkmark: Surely asset-stripping can't be too far away. Maybe that's an opportunity for Lockheed Martin.

There was a thread a few days ago which ventured slightly into the broader topic. What I found worrying was how many people there seemed to see Boeing's extreme short-term greed as something that had been beneficial to the company. A complete disassociation between that style of management and the position that the company is in today.

In a thread last year it was suggested that everything is fine at Boeing management wise because a Bond Issuance was oversubscribed. Sometimes you've just got to laugh. :lol:

Opus99 wrote:
Boeing will be fine. I also think people underestimate how difficult it is to turn a company like Boeing around.


That's kindof the point though isn't it. It's taken twenty or so years for Boeing to get into the position it's in today. The position today is also the result of many cumulative decisions, much of which were made more than a decade ago. And who knows what other decisions made since then have yet to manifest themselves? It will take a long time to turn around the ship. Employers generally become imprints of their managers - 'absorbing' if you will the management style that their managers use to manage them. When they themselves get promoted up the food chain, they tend to stamp this on to those below them.Thus it becomes incredibly hard to change company culture. When you've had nearly two decades worth of cultural attitudes whereby the employees who are promoted/rewarded are the ones who are the best at finding cost savings, rather than those who are the best at innovating or at least the primary functions of their job, you've got a whole hierarchy with a lot of rot in it.

More to the point, if the guys and girls who were innovative saw the writing on the wall and took up job offers at SpaceX, BlueOrigin or elsewhere in the Aerospace industry, it takes even longer for any 'correction' in the right direction to take place.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:56 pm

morrisond wrote:
I think the bottom is past in Boeing. Twelve months from now things will look a lot different. MAX will be delivering in significant quantities, 787 back on track and the 777X on its way to certification. Cash flow and earnings will be nicely positive and probably best in the industry again as they did reduce overhead so much. That will give them the pricing power to get back lost market share in the single aisle space with new orders could be back to 50:50.

Focusing on the existing product portfolio for the next 5 years (other than derivatives) or so is probably their best route forward.
The overheads they are reducing are some of the people they will need to rectify some of the problems that they currently have.

I also don't know why you think that the issues are done. They have to come up with a solution to pickle fork issues on the NG. This is the same part is on the 737MAX.

The 787 issues are not going away, and there is a problem in what happens to the in service fleet. Are they also going to be brought in for repairs or will there be hefty compensation to lessors and/or airlines?

The only jet that is not botched is the 777X and this is because it is yet to enter service. The saving grace will not be Boeing doing a great job, but the FAA holding them accountable.

I also do not know why the cash flow outlook is so positive. They borrowed money, a lot of it. They are going to compensate airlines and crash victims, and it is going to cost money to solve their poor workmanship from before. On the MAX we know that this is coming through credits i.e. lower cash coming in, hence lower profits. In case of the 787,it is going to go through lower volumes and production in what has traditionally been a plant with shoddy work.

I think they will continue to lag in the narrow body segment for quite some time. This may change with a new program.
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:02 pm

crownvic wrote:
To start, this thread is not intended to be a A vs B thread and hopefully, it will not turn into it, because personally there is no war anymore and the white flag needs to go up so that Boeing can just regroup. As an American and full of national pride, I am sickened of the embarrassment Boeing has brought my country. This once proud company continues on a path to oblivion. By looking at their product line, what could have been successful products, has turned into one disaster after another. Here are some points to note:

737 Max- Self explanatory
767F - About the only thing they are currently doing right.
777X Program - The FAA continues to bury this program due to an uncontrolled pitch issue on a test flight amongst other issues.
787 - Production halted due to QC issues of which many are sub-contractor related
KC-46 - A proven airframe, that they just cannot get right as a tanker, due to boom related issues
Rocket Program - SLS full of delays.

Is Boeing damaged beyond repair? Have they lost so many engineers to their bean counter mentality, that nobody with a brain or any good ideas wants to work there anymore? Let's face it, this is a disaster hands down and a good reason for Airbus' success has been amplified by Boeing's incompetence. Can anyone tell me what they are doing right anymore? Do they have a plan to right this company from being a capsized ship? Reading trade publications like AW&ST and Flight Global, there just does not seem to be anything good for the immediate future for this once great company.

So instead of making this an A vs B thread, what opinions do people have to get Boeing back on track or is this no longer possible? Could Lockheed Martin spend billions to offer any commercial program viable to even think of competing with Airbus? Am I overreacting to Boeing's early demise?


I have yet to see it mentioned elsewhere. But my observations from inside the company suggest that the Company leadership is poisoned by some systemic problems in the American economic and political structure that work against its long term success. Namely, if one looks at the composition of the Board of Directors that it is skewed towards US political and military insiders. US military budgets are essentially a zero-sum game with a fixed pot of money every year and the defense industry divvies up the pie amongst itself. The risk/reward ratio is so skewed here that Boeing Corporate needs to place a high priority and management focus on lobbying Washington DC. The leadership of the Company is also skewed towards those who work on the military side, and specifically missile defense. McDonnell Douglas brought that behavior with them to the merger in my view. Dennis Muilenburg worked on F-22 and Airborne Laser program. Pat Shanahan, who was under-secretary for the Department of Defense, also led the Airborne Laser program. The Company's Chief Engineer, Greg Hyslop, is a guidance & control engineer who rose through the technical ranks on missile defense. These are the folks walking the halls of Congress.

I can see how the political insider game in Washington DC, especially arm twisting on missile defense, might have affected its relationship with Congress. Representative Pete DeFazio who led the 737Max hearings is a staunch critic of increased defense spending and has called missile defense a "comic book fantasy". DeFazio and Muilenburg (or Boeing's lobbyists) have some history here which is unreported. And DeFazio's perception of Boeing is going to be influenced by everything that Boeing does on Capitol Hill. Boeing likely is also now seen as aligned with the Republican Party. Case in point naming Nikki Haley to the Boeing Board of Directors when it is obvious to everyone that she would be using the position to ready herself for a Presidential campaign run. Current CEO David Calhoun was placed on Boeing's board to represent the investor class. And remember that Calhoun was running Blackstone when he was elected to the Board. Blackstone was founded by financiers Pete Peterson and Stephen Schwarzman. Schwarzman is a long-term friend of Donald Trump and served as chair of Trump's Strategic and Policy Forum. Washington DC can be very vicious and brutal place with no holds barred. The 737Max hearings should be looked at as political theater and nothing more.

The second problem with Boeing is that it is another "two big to fail" enterprise, like the big banks, which is why it draws the interest of financiers. "Too big to fail" gives it the ability to play the risky financial bets like the stock buy backs that drove the stock price sky high but at the expense of product development. "Too Big to Fail" gives Boeing advantages in borrowing money at reduced interest rates, which means that profits are just increased even further.

Both "Too big to fail" and DC lobbying enables mediocrity and distracts management from focusing on execution. So I don't hold out much hope for Boeing to recover in the near future. They have no strategy for replacing the 737Max which is a zombie (dead man walking) airplane where Airbus won't quickly counter with something equally as good but much cheaper to design and build.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:05 pm

The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?
 
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GlobalAirways
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:31 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Interesting.. in military circles it is Boeing saving everyone from a Lockheed Martin monopoly.

Lockheed has guaranteed profit, and government revenue for decades. Boeing has to go in low with fixed priced contracts and absorb all the risk to win contracts.

In commercial aviation Boeing can easily be hurt by customers. Lockheed would not have a bar of it.


Pretty much!
 
777Mech
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:47 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?


Just curious, who originally designed and built the F-15?

When was the last time Boeing designed and built a clean sheet fighter?
 
777Mech
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:50 pm

keesje wrote:
For a long time I wondered if LM would jump on the Embraer opportunity, focussing on Regionals and Defense.

Giving LM an opening for replacing the geriatic C130 line. Building in a JV and assembling E2's, E3's on US soil.


Love it or hate it, the C-130 continues to print money for LM, and it will do so for a long time to come.
 
phlswaflyer
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:03 pm

crownvic wrote:
To start, this thread is not intended to be a A vs B thread and hopefully, it will not turn into it, because personally there is no war anymore and the white flag needs to go up so that Boeing can just regroup. As an American and full of national pride, I am sickened of the embarrassment Boeing has brought my country. This once proud company continues on a path to oblivion. By looking at their product line, what could have been successful products, has turned into one disaster after another. Here are some points to note:

737 Max- Self explanatory
767F - About the only thing they are currently doing right.
777X Program - The FAA continues to bury this program due to an uncontrolled pitch issue on a test flight amongst other issues.
787 - Production halted due to QC issues of which many are sub-contractor related
KC-46 - A proven airframe, that they just cannot get right as a tanker, due to boom related issues
Rocket Program - SLS full of delays.

Is Boeing damaged beyond repair? Have they lost so many engineers to their bean counter mentality, that nobody with a brain or any good ideas wants to work there anymore? Let's face it, this is a disaster hands down and a good reason for Airbus' success has been amplified by Boeing's incompetence. Can anyone tell me what they are doing right anymore? Do they have a plan to right this company from being a capsized ship? Reading trade publications like AW&ST and Flight Global, there just does not seem to be anything good for the immediate future for this once great company.

So instead of making this an A vs B thread, what opinions do people have to get Boeing back on track or is this no longer possible? Could Lockheed Martin spend billions to offer any commercial program viable to even think of competing with Airbus? Am I overreacting to Boeing's early demise?


Long-term negligence, complete cowardice in reading the market ( follower and not an innovator), and utter incompetence at the board level - then we have the three the worst CEO's ever created who literally got away with murder. BS GE fools and management mentality. Welch was garbage. Compensation that rewarded the exact wrong things. ...and this is just where it begins -and my heartbreak continues.
 
FGITD
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:17 pm

777Mech wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?


Just curious, who originally designed and built the F-15?

When was the last time Boeing designed and built a clean sheet fighter?


Going back over the decades…has Boeing ever really been in the fighter business?

Seems like there was a pretty clear split in the manufacturers, some leaned heavily into the military, some into civil.

Boeing somewhat straddled the line to their strengths building bombers, tankers, surveillance, etc. Much of which shared commonality with their civil lines.

What I find interesting is that if you look at their diverse product line and range of experience, you’d think McDonnell Douglas would have been the big player. They were then what Boeing is now. Products designed for space, civil, military, helicopters. A few missteps along the way though…and of course we know how that went…
 
LU9092
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:27 pm

The issues at Boeing reflect the situation in the US economy at large. For decades now corporate boards, influenced by the likes of the Kinsey Institute, have gutted middle management, relentlessly "cut costs", and lived by the mantra that a business makes money, not products. As others have pointed out, the entire system is set up to reward short-term cash flow. Once businesses reach a certain size, weak and poorly enforced antitrust laws make buying out or merging with competitors much more cost effective than innovating in order to actually compete.

The gutting of middle management has had a terrible impact on Boeing and other large manufacturers. At Boeing, those managers were engineers who came up through the ranks and had vast knowledge gained through experience. They collectively learned far more about designing and building airplanes than any executive could ever hope to, and they were empowered to make decisions about design and processes that were informed by that experience and know-how. The result was that Boeing made products that were second to none. Their management knew which corners couldn't be cut, and had the depth of knowledge needed to see beyond just the immediate results of changes. As with virtually every large company in the US, Boeing's investors led a push to eliminate what they saw as the high cost of middle management while ignoring the loss of experience and knowledge that went with it. In their place are arrogant executives who have been taught that products don't matter and all they need to be good at is making more money this quarter. These executives have learned that when they run out of tricks, they can leave with a huge fortune and move on to the next corporation if they don't feel like retiring to their yacht yet.

Obviously, this is vastly over-simplified, with a lot of nuance missing. But it isn't just Boeing that's broken, it's the system it exists within that's unhealthy. As long as the system doesn't change, I don't think it's possible for Boeing to return to its former glory. Its investors simply wouldn't allow it. The only path I see is for one or more startups to disrupt Boeing into bankruptcy or spinning off BCA, allowing it to rise from the ashes free from the influence of the rent-seeking profiteers that are wringing every cent from it they can with no regard for the future.
 
UA748i
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:43 pm

par13del wrote:
What makes us think that LM is a better run company, the F-35 program?


The F-35 program is doing better now, to be fair. Still aways to go, yes, but definitely better.
 
Newark727
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:46 pm

FGITD wrote:
Going back over the decades…has Boeing ever really been in the fighter business?


Yeah, you just have to go back over the decades a little bit farther. :D
 
UA748i
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:47 pm

par13del wrote:
What makes us think that LM is a better run company, the F-35 program?


The F-35 program is doing better now, to be fair. Still aways to go, yes, but definitely better.

777Mech wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?


Just curious, who originally designed and built the F-15?

When was the last time Boeing designed and built a clean sheet fighter?


Exactly. Some would argue the T-7A is a clean sheet trainer (that could honestly be turned into an attack aircraft), ignoring that it was developed as a JV with Saab.

The X-32 was definitely one of the last single seat types they developed. We all know that story.

Im quite confident in saying that the NGAD will not be a Boeing product.
 
phxa340
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:54 pm

Airbus went through tough times, Lockheed went through tough times, Emb went through thought times - I’m not sure why you don’t think Boeing can’t get back on track and why you are basically assuming they are a lost cause. Companies lose their way … while many fail , many also hit their stride again. Relax, it takes time to right a ship.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:55 pm

I don't really buy the "Boeing is dying, will LM save us?" perspective. A different question is whether Boeings struggles are an opportunity for a new US based competitor, whether it be LM or someone else (although realistically, there aren't many heavy industrials who have the capital it would take to launch a commercial aircraft product). Boeing's challenges are an opportunity; whether it's a big enough opportunity is another question. The capital requirements are substantial, but capital is also relatively cheap at the moment so who knows.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:55 pm

a proven and trusted platform that keeps getting better

777Mech wrote:
keesje wrote:
For a long time I wondered if LM would jump on the Embraer opportunity, focussing on Regionals and Defense.

Giving LM an opening for replacing the geriatic C130 line. Building in a JV and assembling E2's, E3's on US soil.


Love it or hate it, the C-130 continues to print money for LM, and it will do so for a long time to come.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:10 pm

Lockheed hasn't produced a commercial passenger plane in 35 years. Martin Marietta has never produced such a plane. Not sure how much help they'd be to the Commercial Aircraft Division.

Gremlinzzzz wrote:

The only jet that is not botched is the 777X and this is because it is yet to enter service. The saving grace will not be Boeing doing a great job, but the FAA holding them accountable.


It puts it's nose down without being told to do so. FAA isn't satisfied that Boeing has fully explained the root cause and fix to the new flight control system. It's pathway to certification is on a hard pause.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/citing-a-serious-flight-test-incident-and-lack-of-design-maturity-faa-slows-boeing-777x-certification/
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:21 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?

Bad analogy.

The F35 was always doomed to be a piece-of-junk program no matter who constructed it.

    Why? Because a jack of all trades, is a master of none.

    No engineer came up with the harebrained idea of using one aircraft to replace three different "market" segments-- that was a bureaucratic decision. It's the aviation equivalent of attempting to replace a Ferrari, a Prius, and a tow-truck, with a single model; and then wondering why it doesn't do any one of those jobs particularly well.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:30 pm

tlecam wrote:
I don't really buy the "Boeing is dying, will LM save us?" perspective. A different question is whether Boeings struggles are an opportunity for a new US based competitor, whether it be LM or someone else (although realistically, there aren't many heavy industrials who have the capital it would take to launch a commercial aircraft product). Boeing's challenges are an opportunity; whether it's a big enough opportunity is another question. The capital requirements are substantial, but capital is also relatively cheap at the moment so who knows.

If you think about it... original Dow index had 12 companies, and I don't recognize 11 names out of 12 beyond being those names being mentioned in some old books.
Index was expanded in 1928 to 30 companies - I have hard time recognizing about half of them. None of original 12 or original 30 are part of today's index, GE was the last one.
Are there any very large companies which held to their status for 100 years? Disney is coming close, anything else?
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:44 pm

kalvado wrote:
tlecam wrote:
I don't really buy the "Boeing is dying, will LM save us?" perspective. A different question is whether Boeings struggles are an opportunity for a new US based competitor, whether it be LM or someone else (although realistically, there aren't many heavy industrials who have the capital it would take to launch a commercial aircraft product). Boeing's challenges are an opportunity; whether it's a big enough opportunity is another question. The capital requirements are substantial, but capital is also relatively cheap at the moment so who knows.

If you think about it... original Dow index had 12 companies, and I don't recognize 11 names out of 12 beyond being those names being mentioned in some old books.
Index was expanded in 1928 to 30 companies - I have hard time recognizing about half of them. None of original 12 or original 30 are part of today's index, GE was the last one.
Are there any very large companies which held to their status for 100 years? Disney is coming close, anything else?

That’s not the best example as a lot of that has to do with the change in the US’s economic focus in the past 100 years. Many of those original companies were not usurped by direct competitors but rather other companies in growing industries got larger and pushed them out of the Dow and public spotlight. The Dow in 1898 was primarily manufactures/utilities while today it is more banking/insurance/retail as those sectors are much greater part of the US economy than 100 years ago when the US was still primarily manufacturing. GE stayed because they have diversified significantly since then (and pulled back on that significantly in the past few decades).

Right now there is not an indication of a rival domestic commercial competitor anytime soon, or an indication that air travel is going to get usurped by something else (which would effect Airbus just as much as Boeing if they don’t change either).
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:01 pm

Polot wrote:
kalvado wrote:
tlecam wrote:
I don't really buy the "Boeing is dying, will LM save us?" perspective. A different question is whether Boeings struggles are an opportunity for a new US based competitor, whether it be LM or someone else (although realistically, there aren't many heavy industrials who have the capital it would take to launch a commercial aircraft product). Boeing's challenges are an opportunity; whether it's a big enough opportunity is another question. The capital requirements are substantial, but capital is also relatively cheap at the moment so who knows.

If you think about it... original Dow index had 12 companies, and I don't recognize 11 names out of 12 beyond being those names being mentioned in some old books.
Index was expanded in 1928 to 30 companies - I have hard time recognizing about half of them. None of original 12 or original 30 are part of today's index, GE was the last one.
Are there any very large companies which held to their status for 100 years? Disney is coming close, anything else?

That’s not the best example as a lot of that has to do with the change in the US’s economic focus in the past 100 years. Many of those original companies were not usurped by direct competitors but rather other companies in growing industries got larger and pushed them out of the Dow and public spotlight. The Dow in 1898 was primarily manufactures/utilities while today it is more banking/insurance/retail as those sectors are much greater part of the US economy than 100 years ago when the US was still primarily manufacturing. GE stayed because they have diversified significantly since then (and pulled back on that significantly in the past few decades).

Right now there is not an indication of a rival domestic commercial competitor anytime soon, or an indication that air travel is going to get usurped by something else (which would effect Airbus just as much as Boeing if they don’t change either).

Yet a lot of those grands either no longer exist or exist as a smaller subsidiary of a much larger business. Just saying that being at the top is a no guarantee of future success.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:10 pm

It starts at the top. Either they have seasoned, engineering-focused management with a clear line of communication down to product level, or they have clowns in clown suits stirring up a giant pot of rancid rat poison. You probably know the rest.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:28 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
a proven and trusted platform that keeps getting better

777Mech wrote:
keesje wrote:
For a long time I wondered if LM would jump on the Embraer opportunity, focussing on Regionals and Defense.

Giving LM an opening for replacing the geriatic C130 line. Building in a JV and assembling E2's, E3's on US soil.


Love it or hate it, the C-130 continues to print money for LM, and it will do so for a long time to come.


In business literature the C-130 is often mentioned as
Text book example of pork barrel politics and corruption. The USAF seems to have stopped yelling they don't want / need any. they'll get more anyway, overruled by politics.
http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/092_C ... c_130.html
https://macedon.livejournal.com/4409.html
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1998/1 ... pork-diet/

So maybe not LM to save Boeing. But what about Collins ( UTC/ Pratt / Goodrich / Rockwell / Raytheon) ? That company has some cloud these days.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:39 pm

keesje wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
a proven and trusted platform that keeps getting better

777Mech wrote:

Love it or hate it, the C-130 continues to print money for LM, and it will do so for a long time to come.


In business literature the C-130 is often mentioned as
Text book example of pork barrel politics and corruption. The USAF seems to have stopped yelling they don't want / need any. they'll get more anyway, overruled by politics.
http://fbaum.unc.edu/lobby/_107th/092_C ... c_130.html
https://macedon.livejournal.com/4409.html
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1998/1 ... pork-diet/

So maybe not LM to save Boeing. But what about Collins ( UTC/ Pratt / Goodrich / Rockwell / Raytheon) ? That company has some cloud these days.

Once all the freshly printed dollars will look for something they can buy... Comac 787?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:42 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?

Bad analogy.

The F35 was always doomed to be a piece-of-junk program no matter who constructed it.

    Why? Because a jack of all trades, is a master of none.

    No engineer came up with the harebrained idea of using one aircraft to replace three different "market" segments-- that was a bureaucratic decision. It's the aviation equivalent of attempting to replace a Ferrari, a Prius, and a tow-truck, with a single model; and then wondering why it doesn't do any one of those jobs particularly well.


While this is off topic, I have been disturbed that when I ask the few people who might be informed, they seem to somewhat agree with you. I wish we had one poster on the F35 who was a bit of a doubter and agnostic.

Now more on topic, Kenneth Galbraith in the 1980s I believe wrote that US companies were largely managed to first benefit the upper managers, and then for Wall Street/stockholders. We have had free market fundamentalists assure us on site here that companies are properly only to be managed for the benefit of stockholders (which usually degenerates into better numbers for the next quarter). Government establishes the laws and regulations which allow corporations to have all of the privileges and benefits not available to us lowly citizens. Boeing seems to have carried all of that to an extreme. The two CEOs most responsible for the 787/737 f***ups were allowed to retire in immense fortunes. As were the two CEOs who destroyed my state's two biggest banks. Somehow I think a year or two in prison for those sorts of immense value destruction might be beneficial. I think there was an English quote to the effect that they hung an admiral now and again to encourage to rest. Not entirely a bad idea.
 
estorilm
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:49 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same Lockheed that builds the F35? Asking them to "save" a company which is still selling actually reliable F15s?

That's like me saying Lockheed is better because they still build C130s and Boeing can't even figure out a tanker version of a commercial airliner they've been building for decades in the KC-46.

The F-35 is a 5th gen fighter sharing a STOVL platform with groundbreaking aerodynamics/stealth/avionics and sensors. The F-15 is a cold war relic, as cool as it may be. Comparing them is ridiculous, and I'm not sure why people continue to do so.

In fact your example of the EX is exactly why Boeing is where they are. That was a COMPLETE government hand-me-out to Boeing due to their recent struggles, just like Starliner vs. SpaceX where Boeing got two BILLION more and are still grounded, while SpaceX flew a crewed flight a year and a half ago.

The EX is completely non-survivable in the modern battlefield, and early production runs will cost MORE than the stealth F-35A. Nearly ALL of Boeing's R&D into the EX program was already paid for during the development of the F-15QA for Qatar - it's just a cash cow for them, it should cost 25% less than it will. Kinda like Starliner. In the opening days of a war, flying in contested airspace, I can't imagine ANY pilot wanting to hop into an F-15EX when they could fly a Lockheed F-35 or F-22.

And just a reminder, if you want to poke fun at Lockheed for the JSF program, perhaps you should remind yourself of Boeing's proposal for that contract. Re-designing the entire wing and aircraft at the last second? Requiring a hover-pit AND removal of fuselage components for weight reduction to demonstrate STOVL, etc. Meanwhile the X-35 took off in 500', went supersonic, and landed vertically.

I can't even COMPREHEND how Boeing would have managed their program had they won the JSF contract.
 
subramak1
Posts: 235
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:51 pm

LU9092 wrote:
The issues at Boeing reflect the situation in the US economy at large. For decades now corporate boards, influenced by the likes of the Kinsey Institute, have gutted middle management, relentlessly "cut costs", and lived by the mantra that a business makes money, not products. As others have pointed out, the entire system is set up to reward short-term cash flow. Once businesses reach a certain size, weak and poorly enforced antitrust laws make buying out or merging with competitors much more cost effective than innovating in order to actually compete.

The gutting of middle management has had a terrible impact on Boeing and other large manufacturers. At Boeing, those managers were engineers who came up through the ranks and had vast knowledge gained through experience. They collectively learned far more about designing and building airplanes than any executive could ever hope to, and they were empowered to make decisions about design and processes that were informed by that experience and know-how. The result was that Boeing made products that were second to none. Their management knew which corners couldn't be cut, and had the depth of knowledge needed to see beyond just the immediate results of changes. As with virtually every large company in the US, Boeing's investors led a push to eliminate what they saw as the high cost of middle management while ignoring the loss of experience and knowledge that went with it. In their place are arrogant executives who have been taught that products don't matter and all they need to be good at is making more money this quarter. These executives have learned that when they run out of tricks, they can leave with a huge fortune and move on to the next corporation if they don't feel like retiring to their yacht yet.

Obviously, this is vastly over-simplified, with a lot of nuance missing. But it isn't just Boeing that's broken, it's the system it exists within that's unhealthy. As long as the system doesn't change, I don't think it's possible for Boeing to return to its former glory. Its investors simply wouldn't allow it. The only path I see is for one or more startups to disrupt Boeing into bankruptcy or spinning off BCA, allowing it to rise from the ashes free from the influence of the rent-seeking profiteers that are wringing every cent from it they can with no regard for the future.


Congratulations! This is the most valid, and well articulated post in this thread. The challenge that most companies have is that they forget they make a product for customers and have to work backwards from there. Since 1980s this concept of shareholder value creation has pushed everything else aside. If you dont make good products, your company doesn't exist and shareholders lose.

There was a pledge last year by companies to see the bigger picture and move away from shareholder to stakeholder centric view. I would like to see how Wall street reacts to this over longer term.

Subramanian
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing - Can Lockheed Martin Please Save Us?

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:21 pm

It is quite interesting how a company that can make planes that have 99+% dispatch reliability is so terrible it should close its doors and give up any further work. Bombardier face planted so bad it sold its crown jewels, sold off all but their business jets, screwed up its light rail so bad the NYC subway system wouldn't allow for them to bid and Alstom had to add a Billion of added loss to the disaster projects they took over when buying BBD rail.

GM cratered, Enron was caught, VW cheated on emissions, GE's vaulted empire basically crashed and burned. IBM went from Master of the Universe to "are they still around".

Yes, I greatly preferred Boeing pre-merger when a lot more was built in house, before the MBA's thought divesting Spirit made sense. What is strange is that many of the issues have to do with Controls, well most of that is subbed out to Collins, isn't Collins somewhat to blame for things like the 77X command errors, but they are NEVER mentioned.

Let's go beat a dead horse again and again.

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