A long time coming for Porter Airlines today -- re-start of flights, starting with some domestic destinations. With plans for jets and more competition, what do you think of the immediate future for Porter? I hope to fly them again soon when they return to IAD and other U.S. cities.

Bout time. But I think they waited too long.

Is Porter a potential launch partner for the new Embraer E3 Turboprop ?

docmtl wrote:

Is Porter a potential launch partner for the new Embraer E3 Turboprop ?

Never thought of this but it seems they like Embraer, so the E3 can be a replacement when their Q400s get old. I guess they have another 10-15 years in them so they will first have to worry to have the Jet implemented before they will think of anything else.

Is there an established timeline for restarting their US flights?

I find this all very curious. Through the events of the last two years, some information that was not in the public domain became public.

Namely, with a virtual monopoly at YTZ, flying very efficient aircraft, paying wages less than their competitors and even introducing Canada to checked baggage fees …. they were losing money. So, I am curious to see what they do differently to change that.

They flew from YTZ to Ottawa, Montreal and Thunder Bay plus some local training flghts around YTZ.

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Is there an established timeline for restarting their US flights?

Yes! US flights will restart September 17th, to include IAD.

F27500 wrote:

Bout time. But I think they waited too long.

Given the way things are going politically in Canada, they made the best choice, I think. This gives them the winter to get the operation back up to speed, and be ready for next summer. Biz traffic is still slow, and that is Porter’s base.

Porter is going to burn money until business demand returns.

F27500 wrote:

Bout time. But I think they waited too long.

I tend to agree. Absent a return of business travel which doesn't appear to be imminent, I cannot understand why PD didn't bring back at least the east coast flights for the July/August timeframe. That's been a clear winner for them over the past number of years with Atlantic Canadians who are disgruntled with AC and WS just isn't a huge player in that market. Now to launch service at a time where there's a few weeks at best of traffic to the east before it falls off a cliff for the winter and then hope for a return to US business travel seems like a questionable move to me. We'll see how this goes! I've doubted PD for years and they've surprised me, so hopefully they can make it successful.

To further add to POE's woes it looks like Air Canada Jazz resumed service from YTZ (Toronto island) to Montreal today as well. Whatever low demand there is will be further diluted or is it all of a sudden so high that 2 carriers need to re-start at the same time?

CrewBunk wrote:

Namely, with a virtual monopoly at YTZ...

A virtually monopoly at YTZ isn't worth much when YYZ is 25km away and pretty well connected to GTA public transport. It's the lemonade stand monopoly when Tim Hortons and McDonald's are in the same block.

MIflyer12 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Namely, with a virtual monopoly at YTZ...

A virtually monopoly at YTZ isn't worth much when YYZ is 25km away and pretty well connected to GTA public transport. It's the lemonade stand monopoly when Tim Hortons and McDonald's are in the same block.

YTZ was their “edge”.

Otherwise it’s just another airline flying out of Toronto. They knew it too ….. that’s why they were spending a reported $50M a year just to tie up all available slots. Air Canada, Westjet and United all applied for YTZ slots and were denied.

CrewBunk wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Namely, with a virtual monopoly at YTZ...

A virtually monopoly at YTZ isn't worth much when YYZ is 25km away and pretty well connected to GTA public transport. It's the lemonade stand monopoly when Tim Hortons and McDonald's are in the same block.

YTZ was their “edge”.

Otherwise it’s just another airline flying out of Toronto. They knew it too ….. that’s why they were spending a reported $50M a year just to tie up all available slots. Air Canada, Westjet and United all applied for YTZ slots and were denied.

It’s their edge so much that they are going be flying jets out of YYZ. Canada has always struggled to support even two major carriers and is littered with failed carriers throughout its history. With both Porter and Flair now at YYZ, yields have got to be brutal. Flair’s advertised fares are as low as $30 one way (without the add ons for luggage, etc). There’s no way these carriers survive at these prices.

EFA2014 wrote:

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Is there an established timeline for restarting their US flights?

Yes! US flights will restart September 17th, to include IAD.

Thank you. What US cities restart alongside IAD on the 17th?

AC has slots.

CO had slots to begin service to EWR when the new Terminal opened at YTZ -- CO chose not to begin that service.

CrewBunk wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

CrewBunk wrote:

Namely, with a virtual monopoly at YTZ...

A virtually monopoly at YTZ isn't worth much when YYZ is 25km away and pretty well connected to GTA public transport. It's the lemonade stand monopoly when Tim Hortons and McDonald's are in the same block.

YTZ was their “edge”.

Otherwise it’s just another airline flying out of Toronto. They knew it too ….. that’s why they were spending a reported $50M a year just to tie up all available slots. Air Canada, Westjet and United all applied for YTZ slots and were denied.

Porter has never made any money, as in, a profit.

The company has stated on multiple occasions that their IPO was "imminent" -- yet to be seen.

Considering the tendency of the Deluce Aviation Syndicate to sell off their companies (think Air Ontario, Canada 3000), expect nothing earth-shattering.

When they started up today, was the SteamWhistle free???

shoelessjoe wrote:

AC has slots.

Of course AC has slots. How else would they be flying YTZ-YUL?

However, when AC wanted to start YTZ-YOW and YTZ-EWR, all remaining slots had been tied up by Porter. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but clearly Porter knows the only edge they have is the downtown airport.

As you say, CO had a chance, long long ago passed.

But a few new developments have changed that. One is the UP express makes YYZ easier for those tied to transit and Waltzing Matilda Aviation has recently applied for YTZ slots. With competition on only one YTZ route, Porter was unable to make a profit …. I say again, what are they doing new to change that?


If the E195s ever appear in Porter colours, it will just make the end quicker. It would be hard to see where Porter would fit in on the spectrum (with no “edge”) against Air Canada, Westjet, Flair.

Anyone know if there was a resolution to the Nieuport lawsuit against Porter for non-payment of terminal fees? I find it amusing that Porter cashed out and sold the terminal to Nieuport for good money and then defaulted on rent as a tenant.

I have no skin in the game. I am an AC status-holder, but I've never had a problem with Porter -- I've used and enjoyed their service and the convenience of YTZ. In winter IRROPS I frequently see an entire day of regional ops in Ontario wiped out at AC while PD still flies. As a privately-held business I don't think anyone (save for a few who probably aren't posting on the Airliners forum) know what Porter's numbers are, but there is clearly some vitriol in a lot of these posts. We are all smart people who can deduce that the inability to grow, etc is a restrictive factor as is the pandemic and as is the uncertainty of the return of pre-2020 volumes of business traffic.

Steamwhistle has been gone for 5 years. It was Ace Hill up until COVID. It's Beau's now.

VDemerest wrote:

Porter has never made any money, as in, a profit.

The company has stated on multiple occasions that their IPO was "imminent" -- yet to be seen.

Considering the tendency of the Deluce Aviation Syndicate to sell off their companies (think Air Ontario, Canada 3000), expect nothing earth-shattering.

When they started up today, was the SteamWhistle free???

I agree on YYZ ops. Wiser growth opportunities probably reside elsewhere.

AC is a juggernaut in the "triangle" -- no one at Pearson has ever made an appreciable impact on what used to be and is still sometimes called Rapidair. The speed with which Westjet Encored the majority of those routes is telling. I recall the Canadi>n F-28s on those routes -- my ears still haven't recovered.

[/quote]
Of course AC has slots. How else would they be flying YTZ-YUL?

However, when AC wanted to start YTZ-YOW and YTZ-EWR, all remaining slots had been tied up by Porter. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but clearly Porter knows the only edge they have is the downtown airport.
.
As you say, CO had a chance, long long ago passed.

But a few new developments have changed that. One is the UP express makes YYZ easier for those tied to transit and Waltzing Matilda Aviation has recently applied for YTZ slots. With competition on only one YTZ route, Porter was unable to make a profit …. I say again, what are they doing new to change that?


If the E195s ever appear in Porter colours, it will just make the end quicker. It would be hard to see where Porter would fit in on the spectrum (with no “edge”) against Air Canada, Westjet, Flair.[/quote]

VDemerest wrote:

Porter has never made any money, as in, a profit.

Now now, they announced a profit in 2011:
https://www.reuters.com/article/portera ... PX20120308

After many prior "expectations," e.g., 2006:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... o-1.595972

The reality is their current model doesn't seem to work (for profit). I expect this is why the E2-195, to create a product more appealing to high yield customers (I speculate).

The timing to restart is... odd.

Lightsaber

shoelessjoe wrote:

In winter IRROPS I frequently see an entire day of regional ops in Ontario wiped out at AC while PD still flies.

That's true about AC regional ops at YYZ in the winter. It's AC making the decision this thin out the operation during IRROPS to try to keep mainline on schedule and the first to go are the regional flights.

lightsaber wrote:

The reality is their current model doesn't seem to work (for profit). I expect this is why the E2-195, to create a product more appealing to high yield customers (I speculate).

The timing to restart is... odd.

The Q400s work if the intent is just to shuttle hurried business men through YTZ. YTZ is their key differentiator, except on YTZ-YUL where AC can leverage Aeroplan.

Also remains to be seen if Connect Airways will join the fun at YTZ. I think the status of PD's slots at YTZ are probably in question seeing that they didn't pay most of their fees for a year and didn't operate a single flight for almost 18 months.

I really can't think of a place, other than YOW, where PD has an opening without getting into a nuclear head on fight with either or both of AC and WS. Even if they base some E2s in YOW, there's not enough volume to keep 30 of them busy or profitable.

From what they've said it seems they will try to base the E2s at either YYZ, YUL, YOW or possibly YHZ. I'm not sure why they believe AC will behave differently than they have in the past: lower prices, increase frequency/capacity, add an Aeroplan promotion and wait for their competitor to bleed money and exit the market.

I absolutely understand why from AC's perspective that happens. Past winters I've seen an entire days worth of departures cancelled out of YQG while PD still flies. It's just reality -- and it sucks when AC can't rebook you for 24+ hours.

9252fly wrote:

shoelessjoe wrote:

In winter IRROPS I frequently see an entire day of regional ops in Ontario wiped out at AC while PD still flies.

That's true about AC regional ops at YYZ in the winter. It's AC making the decision this thin out the operation during IRROPS to try to keep mainline on schedule and the first to go are the regional flights.

Any idea how the first few days of operation are going? Are loads decent etc?

Apparently Pre-Clearance is opening in 2022 at YTZ, is this true?

While I think that AC will respond ruthlessly to any Porter expansion, at least WestJet is not that big at YUL. Space permitting, perhaps they could try to become No. 2 at YUL?

I'm not sure if the government will amend this list to include YTZ, but as of right now, it is not approved to handle intl/transborder pax due to covid restrictions. Porter is supposed to resume US flights next week so I hope there is an amendment made soon.

https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/openp ... n-eng.html

Anyone flown Porter since they re-started? Wonder what the loads are like...