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jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:19 pm

Mammoth will be working with GDC Technics, which appears to be a legitimate MRO. https://newsroom.aviator.aero/mammoth-f ... nitiative/

I know a number of people are skeptical, but they seem to be partnering with legitimate partners.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:40 pm

Well now 777’s will have a new lease in life instead of being scrapped.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:00 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Mammoth will be working with GDC Technics, which appears to be a legitimate MRO. https://newsroom.aviator.aero/mammoth-f ... nitiative/

I know a number of people are skeptical, but they seem to be partnering with legitimate partners.


It's a legit MRO, but their expertise appears to be mostly in VVIP interiors and installing avionics made by others. Their website is absurd self-congratulatory platitudes. Interestingly, they put out a press release last year when a 777 showed up for a c-check. Seriously. And they proudly said it was their second one.

Nothing to say they couldn't do the touch work on a conversion, but it's not like, I dunno, ATS or someone with the scale of an AAR joined forces with them.

I just view this as more "See, we're doing something!!" from the Mammoth guys, who are still basically a small-scale engineer and a former CAM employee. They have experience working for others, and they had the idea to try to become a 777 conversion company. Okay. We'll see how it goes.

No matter how you slice it, these conversions are Brand X compared to a lashup of IAI and GECAS, with licensing from Boeing.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Mammoth will be working with GDC Technics, which appears to be a legitimate MRO. https://newsroom.aviator.aero/mammoth-f ... nitiative/

I know a number of people are skeptical, but they seem to be partnering with legitimate partners.


It's a legit MRO, but their expertise appears to be mostly in VVIP interiors and installing avionics made by others. Their website is absurd self-congratulatory platitudes. Interestingly, they put out a press release last year when a 777 showed up for a c-check. Seriously. And they proudly said it was their second one.

Nothing to say they couldn't do the touch work on a conversion, but it's not like, I dunno, ATS or someone with the scale of an AAR joined forces with them.

I just view this as more "See, we're doing something!!" from the Mammoth guys, who are still basically a small-scale engineer and a former CAM employee. They have experience working for others, and they had the idea to try to become a 777 conversion company. Okay. We'll see how it goes.

No matter how you slice it, these conversions are Brand X compared to a lashup of IAI and GECAS, with licensing from Boeing.


All fair points, I went looking through their website and didn't see much in the way of P2F conversions other than a simple list. To clarify my comment on some people being skeptical, I don't necessarily disagree with the skepticism and with your insight into some background it makes sense - but Mammoth does seem to have some important connections (Fortress namely, although we don't know the extent of that backing, could be minimal or could be more significant, I'm leaning middle to significant only because we have seen a number of investment firms get into converted freighter leasing). Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens with Mammoth and the other conversion "programs" - Leeham mentioned on his Twitter another 77W conversion program was hoping for the Emirates order, I wonder if that was Mammoth.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:44 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Leeham mentioned on his Twitter another 77W conversion program was hoping for the Emirates order, I wonder if that was Mammoth.


That's a good catch by you, and Mammoth might well have been competing for the award. If either of the other two "programs" had snagged Emirates, it would have been a big credibility boost. It was a heavy lift to begin with, given the brand names that were involved in the design and engineering of the Big Twin. (As I mentioned above, GECAS helped design the thing in the sense that they shared with IAI what the end result should be based on their market intelligence, which means that it's likely to be the right balance of capability and cost.) It had to be helpful that IAI had its touch work facility right next door in another UAE member state. Genius to have set that up, really, in terms of opening up the market in that part of the world. And you know that if this starts moving along, Emirates has a bunch of its own feedstock to convert and maybe even lease out if it wants to.

And all the other points in your post (which I didn't copy in its entirety above), are excellent and legit as well.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:37 am

wjcandee wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Mammoth will be working with GDC Technics, which appears to be a legitimate MRO. https://newsroom.aviator.aero/mammoth-f ... nitiative/

I know a number of people are skeptical, but they seem to be partnering with legitimate partners.


It's a legit MRO, but their expertise appears to be mostly in VVIP interiors and installing avionics made by others. Their website is absurd self-congratulatory platitudes. Interestingly, they put out a press release last year when a 777 showed up for a c-check. Seriously. And they proudly said it was their second one.

Nothing to say they couldn't do the touch work on a conversion, but it's not like, I dunno, ATS or someone with the scale of an AAR joined forces with them.

I just view this as more "See, we're doing something!!" from the Mammoth guys, who are still basically a small-scale engineer and a former CAM employee. They have experience working for others, and they had the idea to try to become a 777 conversion company. Okay. We'll see how it goes.

No matter how you slice it, these conversions are Brand X compared to a lashup of IAI and GECAS, with licensing from Boeing.

I love GDC CEO's optimism:
Brad Foreman, GDC CEO, added, “We believe Mammoth is positioned to be the leading passenger-to-freighter conversion company in the world and are excited about the potential."

They have big dreams about Mammoth, ignoring the already established conversion companies...
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:03 am

WayexTDI wrote:
[Brad Foreman, GDC CEO, added, “We believe Mammoth is positioned to be the leading passenger-to-freighter conversion company in the world and are excited about the potential."
They have big dreams about Mammoth, ignoring the already established conversion companies...


Yeah. "Leading." Nice fluffy word.

How's this for a definition of "leading":
(A) over 40 years of experience engineering STCs and converting aircraft in-house;
(B) successfully delivering well over 250 converted aircraft;
(C) Converted the following:
B737-300/-400/-700/-800,
B747-100/ -200/-400,
B757 (touch work),
MD-11 (touch work),
B767-200/-300;
(D) converted aircraft have accumulated over 2,500,000 flying hours total; and
(E) no ADs have been issued against any STC's developed by this company (737, 747, 767).

That's IAI of course. But the guy Mammoth hired thinks that Mammoth will be the leading company. Woo-hoo! I love his enthusiasm and willingness to be a shill for the guys who just hired his company!

IAI will have in-house 777 lines at TLV, lines at Sharp Techniks at ICN to serve Asia and lines at Etihad Engineering, the largest MRO in the Middle East.

And not to sound like a fanboy, but IAI's Ethiopian 767 conversion site in ADD is gonna end up being a very-significant development. Tewolde GebreMariam, the head of Ethiopian, is a freakin' genius and the absolute star of African aviation; a great guy for anybody to partner with. It's gonna be fun to watch. (See, e.g. https://www.jpost.com/international/the ... vid-676699 )

(I will have to eat my words in a big way, of course, if the market decides that the Mammoth freighter is the one to buy and it captures 75 percent market share. But I'm willing to take that risk.)

Can't wait until the Sequoia conversion starts its own deluge of self-congratulatory press releases.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:58 am

wjcandee wrote:
Yeah. "Leading." Nice fluffy word.

How's this for a definition of "leading":
(A) over 40 years of experience engineering STCs and converting aircraft in-house;
(B) successfully delivering well over 250 converted aircraft;
(C) Converted the following:
(D) converted aircraft have accumulated over 2,500,000 flying hours total; and
(E) no ADs have been issued against any STC's developed by this company (737, 747, 767).

IAI will have in-house 777 lines at TLV, lines at Sharp Techniks at ICN to serve Asia and lines at Etihad Engineering, the largest MRO in the Middle East.

And not to sound like a fanboy, but IAI's Ethiopian 767 conversion site in ADD is gonna end up being a very-significant development. Tewolde GebreMariam, the head of Ethiopian, is a freakin' genius and the absolute star of African aviation; a great guy for anybody to partner with. It's gonna be fun to watch. (See, e.g. https://www.jpost.com/international/the ... vid-676699 )


I'm from outside of aviation but doing over 250 aircraft over this time with NO ADs seems impressive. It means their doors, devices, and design work is well done.

Doing conversions with Ethiopian could be a big win-win, adding industry to a country that really needs it. It's a pretty dry climate, not sure about long term aircraft storage conditions but it looks decent. Conversions and MRO work require good quality, provided that can be maintained the labor costs should be quite good.

Is there any market for the interior parts pulled out with the conversion? I would think packs and windows would but bins and seats? Probably just scrap and recycle is my guess.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:06 am

wjcandee wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
[Brad Foreman, GDC CEO, added, “We believe Mammoth is positioned to be the leading passenger-to-freighter conversion company in the world and are excited about the potential."
They have big dreams about Mammoth, ignoring the already established conversion companies...


Yeah. "Leading." Nice fluffy word.

How's this for a definition of "leading":
(A) over 40 years of experience engineering STCs and converting aircraft in-house;
(B) successfully delivering well over 250 converted aircraft;
(C) Converted the following:
B737-300/-400/-700/-800,
B747-100/ -200/-400,
B757 (touch work),
MD-11 (touch work),
B767-200/-300;
(D) converted aircraft have accumulated over 2,500,000 flying hours total; and
(E) no ADs have been issued against any STC's developed by this company (737, 747, 767).

That's IAI of course. But the guy Mammoth hired thinks that Mammoth will be the leading company. Woo-hoo! I love his enthusiasm and willingness to be a shill for the guys who just hired his company!

IAI will have in-house 777 lines at TLV, lines at Sharp Techniks at ICN to serve Asia and lines at Etihad Engineering, the largest MRO in the Middle East.

And not to sound like a fanboy, but IAI's Ethiopian 767 conversion site in ADD is gonna end up being a very-significant development. Tewolde GebreMariam, the head of Ethiopian, is a freakin' genius and the absolute star of African aviation; a great guy for anybody to partner with. It's gonna be fun to watch. (See, e.g. https://www.jpost.com/international/the ... vid-676699 )

(I will have to eat my words in a big way, of course, if the market decides that the Mammoth freighter is the one to buy and it captures 75 percent market share. But I'm willing to take that risk.)

Can't wait until the Sequoia conversion starts its own deluge of self-congratulatory press releases.


Regarding this statement " no ADs have been issued against any STC's developed by this company (737, 747, 767) ".

What about this AD for the 737- BDSF series. :
https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... -airplanes
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:19 pm

mammoth sold 2 777-200LRMF (ex delta birds) with options of 2 777-300ERMFs and two additional 200LRMFs to Cargojet. https://newsroom.aviator.aero/mammoth-f ... rways-ltd/
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:37 pm

In the press release, it mentions this ship will be the first delivered. Typo?

 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:42 pm

DL_Mech wrote:
In the press release, it mentions this ship will be the first delivered. Typo?



Typo, I think there talking about the delta 777-200lr thats getting the conversion currently (I forgot the reg)
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:54 pm

It's probably MSN 29742 - N705DN that is now converted

And with a launch customer this venture does look more legit then it was before.
 
MO11
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:27 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
It's probably MSN 29742 - N705DN that is now converted

And with a launch customer this venture does look more legit then it was before.


It did an eval flight in July...four months later it's already converted?
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:40 pm

then in that case here's the actual aircraft
Image

it seems to currently reside in Moses lake
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N705DN
 
DenverTed
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:40 pm

What's the generic acronym for a conversion? Passenger To Freighter, PTF, or Converted Freighter, CF, or something else?
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:42 pm

DenverTed wrote:
What's the generic acronym for a conversion? Passenger To Freighter, PTF, or Converted Freighter, CF, or something else?

777-200LRMF and 777-300ERMF
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:49 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
What's the generic acronym for a conversion? Passenger To Freighter, PTF, or Converted Freighter, CF, or something else?

777-200LRMF and 777-300ERMF


No, that's not a generic acronym. MF stands for Mammoth Freighter. There really isn't one as they all stand for specific conversion programs: BCF (Boeing Cargo Freighter), SF (Special Freighter - IAI), BDSF, P2F, etc.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:53 pm

DenverTed wrote:
What's the generic acronym for a conversion? Passenger To Freighter, PTF, or Converted Freighter, CF, or something else?


Generic would usually be P2F - Passenger to Freighter.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:12 pm

Stitch wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
What's the generic acronym for a conversion? Passenger To Freighter, PTF, or Converted Freighter, CF, or something else?


Generic would usually be P2F - Passenger to Freighter.


I'd be cautious there because P2F is the EFW/Airbus A321 conversion designation. So you couldn't call a Precision Conversion A321 a P2F because that is a PCF.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:24 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I'd be cautious there because P2F is the EFW/Airbus A321 conversion designation. So you couldn't call a Precision Conversion A321 a P2F because that is a PCF.


They asked for the "generic" term and the one I have seen most-used on this forum when referring to Passenger to Freighter conversions in general is "P2F".

And yes, each conversion program has their own unique prefix identifier and when referring to a specific program or model, folks tend to use that specific prefix.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:32 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
It's probably MSN 29742 - N705DN that is now converted

And with a launch customer this venture does look more legit then it was before.


I highly doubt the conversion is finished by now. I don't even think they have cut metal.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:40 pm

Stitch wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
I'd be cautious there because P2F is the EFW/Airbus A321 conversion designation. So you couldn't call a Precision Conversion A321 a P2F because that is a PCF.


They asked for the "generic" term and the one I have seen most-used on this forum when referring to Passenger to Freighter conversions in general is "P2F".

And yes, each conversion program has their own unique prefix identifier and when referring to a specific program or model, folks tend to use that specific prefix.


Fair point; personally I stopped using P2F as the generic due to the reason I stated, but that is hardly universal.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:48 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
It's probably MSN 29742 - N705DN that is now converted

And with a launch customer this venture does look more legit then it was before.


I highly doubt the conversion is finished by now. I don't even think they have cut metal.


no, it wont be done for awhile
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:24 pm

It would be nice to see Mammoth pick up a number of orders. However, I would want to see several flying in service before I would order.

The 777-200LRMF will be the ultimate orphan for a long time. The first in service will be Mammoth's first conversion, and the first 772LR converted. There may be a long wait to get spare door latch parts once the initial spares are used up. Plus buy one for the price of 25 parts, a long wait to sell 20 of those off with only a few flying.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:00 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
It would be nice to see Mammoth pick up a number of orders. However, I would want to see several flying in service before I would order.

The 777-200LRMF will be the ultimate orphan for a long time. The first in service will be Mammoth's first conversion, and the first 772LR converted. There may be a long wait to get spare door latch parts once the initial spares are used up. Plus buy one for the price of 25 parts, a long wait to sell 20 of those off with only a few flying.


Yeah, it will be interesting how they solve the parts issue. However on the front of used aircraft front, they have 8 other unsold ex delta birds plus the eventual soon retirement of emirates 10, crystals 1 and Qatar's 9 777-200lr's
 
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Polot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:35 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
It would be nice to see Mammoth pick up a number of orders. However, I would want to see several flying in service before I would order.

The 777-200LRMF will be the ultimate orphan for a long time. The first in service will be Mammoth's first conversion, and the first 772LR converted. There may be a long wait to get spare door latch parts once the initial spares are used up. Plus buy one for the price of 25 parts, a long wait to sell 20 of those off with only a few flying.

I mean it will be the same latches and parts also on the Mammoth -300ERMF, and outside of Mammoth specific stuff all other parts are pretty much interchangeable between the -200LR, 777F, and -300ER (passenger or P2Fs). The risk is it’s a new company, not really that it’s 77Ls.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:50 pm

here's a list of 200lr operators still left that you can convert to cargo

Crystal 1 (sale if the price is right?)
Emirates 10 (retierment soon?)
Qatar 9 (retirement soon?)
Air Canada 6
Air India 3 (other 5 went to ethiad before getting scrapped, airline might get rid of these planes since it's now under new ownership)
White 1 (currently stored)
ethiopian 6
PIA 2
Trumekistan 4
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:00 am

Polot wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
It would be nice to see Mammoth pick up a number of orders. However, I would want to see several flying in service before I would order.

The 777-200LRMF will be the ultimate orphan for a long time. The first in service will be Mammoth's first conversion, and the first 772LR converted. There may be a long wait to get spare door latch parts once the initial spares are used up. Plus buy one for the price of 25 parts, a long wait to sell 20 of those off with only a few flying.

I mean it will be the same latches and parts also on the Mammoth -300ERMF, and outside of Mammoth specific stuff all other parts are pretty much interchangeable between the -200LR, 777F, and -300ER (passenger or P2Fs). The risk is it’s a new company, not really that it’s 77Ls.


So true Polot

My point is that Mammoth will either be buying a design for the cargo door including all of the parts or designing their own. Would Boeing or IAI be supporting this conversion house, or is Mammoth going alone on this. IAI has the experience to establish design values of Boeing aircraft structure and perform acceptable calculations, but does Mammoth? Also, things like operation function of the door should be concern free as I expect IAI's door to be as they have built many before. Does Mammoth?

Yes the risk is the new company and a new certified procedure for the 77L, yes this procedure will be modified to handle 77W's as well.

A question for Mammoth in the future - conversions of other 772 and 773 models that are not 77L or 77W. There are a lot of 772ER's around that have very low current values, but would they make decent freighters. I doubt IAI will do any 777 outside of the 77W due to its great performance and frame availability. It might give Mammoth a niche that will help bring in future conversions.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:21 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
I doubt IAI will do any 777 outside of the 77W due to its great performance and frame availability. It might give Mammoth a niche that will help bring in future conversions.


IAI has specifically called out as doing the 777-200LR: "IAI will convert six B777-300ER and B777-200LR per year, starting in 2024."

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-to-establish- ... outh-korea
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:35 am

jbs2886 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I doubt IAI will do any 777 outside of the 77W due to its great performance and frame availability. It might give Mammoth a niche that will help bring in future conversions.


IAI has specifically called out as doing the 777-200LR: "IAI will convert six B777-300ER and B777-200LR per year, starting in 2024."

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-to-establish- ... outh-korea


that's weird that they just left it in there with no context
 
Aseem747
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:18 am

jbs2886 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I doubt IAI will do any 777 outside of the 77W due to its great performance and frame availability. It might give Mammoth a niche that will help bring in future conversions.


IAI has specifically called out as doing the 777-200LR: "IAI will convert six B777-300ER and B777-200LR per year, starting in 2024."

https://www.iai.co.il/iai-to-establish- ... outh-korea

Yeah but the 777-200LR is quite a capable aircraft too, a lot more than 772 and 773 are. It might be short but is just as beastly as 77W, will be interesting to see if any airline will ever do a conversion for 772 and 773 considering how inferior they are to the 777NG.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:44 am

Spacepope wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
It's probably MSN 29742 - N705DN that is now converted

And with a launch customer this venture does look more legit then it was before.


I highly doubt the conversion is finished by now. I don't even think they have cut metal.


Right? I don't think they have really even made significant progress on the (reverse-)engineering.

As to IAI and the -200, that first popped up with respect to the future Sharp Techniks ICN touch-work site, where apparently they are planning as well to do a few -200LRs. I do think that the primary IAI product is going to be the -300ER.

This Mammoth thing is still a speculative, maybe/maybe-not situation. It's still a paper airplane. Yeah they have orders. We'll see how well Mammoth is able to stick to its highly-aggressive schedule.

As to Jay's question, neither Boeing nor IAI are anywhere near likely to help them out.

And we still have the Sequoia guys out there, which is the company where one of the guys was originally part of Mammoth -- a financing guy. Mammoth was formed as the financing guy, plus an engineer, plus a guy who used to work supervising conversions for CAM. According to the lawsuit among the guys, the two non-financing guys didn't want to give the financing guy a third of the company, so he walked and got financing for doing his own conversion, with engineering help from some Kansas university.
 
2175301
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:18 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
My point is that Mammoth will either be buying a design for the cargo door including all of the parts or designing their own. Would Boeing or IAI be supporting this conversion house, or is Mammoth going alone on this. IAI has the experience to establish design values of Boeing aircraft structure and perform acceptable calculations, but does Mammoth? Also, things like operation function of the door should be concern free as I expect IAI's door to be as they have built many before. Does Mammoth?


Neither Boeing nor IAI will assist with any engineering work by Mammoth.

I could see Boeing being willing to sell their existing cargo door assembly to Mammoth; at a solid profit.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:18 am

2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
My point is that Mammoth will either be buying a design for the cargo door including all of the parts or designing their own. Would Boeing or IAI be supporting this conversion house, or is Mammoth going alone on this. IAI has the experience to establish design values of Boeing aircraft structure and perform acceptable calculations, but does Mammoth? Also, things like operation function of the door should be concern free as I expect IAI's door to be as they have built many before. Does Mammoth?


Neither Boeing nor IAI will assist with any engineering work by Mammoth.

I could see Boeing being willing to sell their existing cargo door assembly to Mammoth; at a solid profit.


Why would they want to, they would rather have the backlog. Also if the conversion doesn't work out it could diss Boeing in some manner as well.

I recall reading in the past that Boeing has provided support to IAI on some conversion types but most do not have their support. Once Boeing started doing conversion packages themselves why would they support others. I think a main part of the cost for a Boeing conversion is for the risk involved, they either want to be in control or have nothing to do with it.

Aftermarket sales at list do please the bean counters.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:17 am

Comparison between the preliminary specifications of the Mammouth 777-330 ERMF and the IAI/Bedek 777-300ERSF

The differences in estimated OEW and MZFW (and MLW) to obtain approx the same payload are huge.

Mammouth – 777-300ERMF
MTOW 775.000 lbs / 351.534 kgs
OEW 323.000 lbs / 146,511 kgs
Payload 220.000 lbs / 99.790 kgs
MZFW 543.000 lbs / 246.300 kgs
MLW 572.000 lbs / 259,455 kgs

IAI/Bedek - 777-300ERSF
MTOW 775.000 lbs /351.534 kgs
OEW 336.000 lbs / 152.407 kgs
Payload 222.000 lbs / 100.698 kgs
MZFW 558.000 lbs / 253.105 kgs
MLW 583.000 lbs / 264.444 kgs

See : https://www.mammoth777.com/777-300ermf
And : https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/defa ... ochure.pdf
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:53 am

747classic wrote:
Comparison between the preliminary specifications of the Mammouth 777-330 ERMF and the IAI/Bedek 777-300ERSF

The differences in estimated OEW and MZFW (and MLW) to obtain approx the same payload are huge.

Mammouth – 777-300ERMF
MTOW 775.000 lbs / 351.534 kgs
OEW 323.000 lbs / 146,511 kgs
Payload 220.000 lbs / 99.790 kgs
MZFW 543.000 lbs / 246.300 kgs
MLW 572.000 lbs / 259,455 kgs

IAI/Bedek - 777-300ERSF
MTOW 775.000 lbs /351.534 kgs
OEW 336.000 lbs / 152.407 kgs
Payload 222.000 lbs / 100.698 kgs
MZFW 558.000 lbs / 253.105 kgs
MLW 583.000 lbs / 264.444 kgs

See : https://www.mammoth777.com/777-300ermf
And : https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/defa ... ochure.pdf


Huh. Thanks for pointing that out!

interesting that the specs of the paper airplane, the one that hasn't been engineered yet, are better than the one that has been fully-engineered and has been cutting metal?

Put another way, fascinating that the folks at IAI, who have delivered well over 250 converted aircraft which have accumulated over 2.5 million flight hours, weren't able to produce an aircraft with specs as good as the 11-employee engineering firm that supports Mammoth.
 
2175301
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:39 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
My point is that Mammoth will either be buying a design for the cargo door including all of the parts or designing their own. Would Boeing or IAI be supporting this conversion house, or is Mammoth going alone on this. IAI has the experience to establish design values of Boeing aircraft structure and perform acceptable calculations, but does Mammoth? Also, things like operation function of the door should be concern free as I expect IAI's door to be as they have built many before. Does Mammoth?


Neither Boeing nor IAI will assist with any engineering work by Mammoth.

I could see Boeing being willing to sell their existing cargo door assembly to Mammoth; at a solid profit.


Why would they want to, they would rather have the backlog. Also if the conversion doesn't work out it could diss Boeing in some manner as well.


It's just a part sale... and P2F projects do not affect the Boeing backlog on new production. Customers who buy P2F are not looking for new aircraft for the service they are buying P2F for.

Boeing (and Airbus) loves that their passenger aircraft are converted to P2F, even if they don't do the conversion, as it means long term sales of parts and other support for that aircraft... and parts and support are solidly profitable.

It may be less common on the commercial side of the business; but the military side has lots of part sales between "competing" companies. If someone has designed a better part for something - its not that uncommon for their competitor to use that part. The Skunk Works has historically been the ultimate customer of this. Their philosophy up front is to not reinvent the wheel - just use the best stuff currently in production from whomever and focus on the unique aspects that their highly secret aircraft needs. The F117 is a collage of parts under the skin and frame from virtually everybody - and everyone cooperates even if they don't have a clue about the end product (especially with the Skunk Works). Part sales are part sales...

Why wouldn't they be willing to sell a cargo door assembly? It's just another part.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:15 pm

2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
2175301 wrote:

Neither Boeing nor IAI will assist with any engineering work by Mammoth.

I could see Boeing being willing to sell their existing cargo door assembly to Mammoth; at a solid profit.


Why would they want to, they would rather have the backlog. Also if the conversion doesn't work out it could diss Boeing in some manner as well.


It's just a part sale... and P2F projects do not affect the Boeing backlog on new production. Customers who buy P2F are not looking for new aircraft for the service they are buying P2F for.

Boeing (and Airbus) loves that their passenger aircraft are converted to P2F, even if they don't do the conversion, as it means long term sales of parts and other support for that aircraft... and parts and support are solidly profitable.

It may be less common on the commercial side of the business; but the military side has lots of part sales between "competing" companies. If someone has designed a better part for something - its not that uncommon for their competitor to use that part. The Skunk Works has historically been the ultimate customer of this. Their philosophy up front is to not reinvent the wheel - just use the best stuff currently in production from whomever and focus on the unique aspects that their highly secret aircraft needs. The F117 is a collage of parts under the skin and frame from virtually everybody - and everyone cooperates even if they don't have a clue about the end product (especially with the Skunk Works). Part sales are part sales...

Why wouldn't they be willing to sell a cargo door assembly? It's just another part.


Because it's a critical part that cannibalizes its own core business?

Mammoth, even with this order, are still very much a paper airplane project. We need to jusst sit back and see where they are a year from now.
 
2175301
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:14 pm

Spacepope wrote:
2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

Why would they want to, they would rather have the backlog. Also if the conversion doesn't work out it could diss Boeing in some manner as well.


It's just a part sale... and P2F projects do not affect the Boeing backlog on new production. Customers who buy P2F are not looking for new aircraft for the service they are buying P2F for.

Boeing (and Airbus) loves that their passenger aircraft are converted to P2F, even if they don't do the conversion, as it means long term sales of parts and other support for that aircraft... and parts and support are solidly profitable.

"Several paragraphs deleted for readability: See above"


Because it's a critical part that cannibalizes its own core business?

Mammoth, even with this order, are still very much a paper airplane project. We need to jusst sit back and see where they are a year from now.


Excuse me, or should I say that's laughable, or just throw the BS flag on your statement.

There are going to be far more used 777 P2Fs available than anyone will every want to have.

Boeing core market in this case is new 77XF aircraft; and there will be freight airlines who will want a new freighter based on increased fuel efficiency, cargo capabilities, and other factors. Will those be 77XF or A350F is the multi-$Billion question.

If Mammoth succeeds then Boeing could gain a very small increase in part sales by selling cargo door assemblies; but, no way is someone who wants a 777P2F going to buy a new 77XF or A350F and affect Boeing's core market.

Your statement appears to be laughable at best...

Please think it through... In many other cases you have presented many reasonable arguments on other issues.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:29 pm

2175301 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
2175301 wrote:

It's just a part sale... and P2F projects do not affect the Boeing backlog on new production. Customers who buy P2F are not looking for new aircraft for the service they are buying P2F for.

Boeing (and Airbus) loves that their passenger aircraft are converted to P2F, even if they don't do the conversion, as it means long term sales of parts and other support for that aircraft... and parts and support are solidly profitable.

"Several paragraphs deleted for readability: See above"


Because it's a critical part that cannibalizes its own core business?

Mammoth, even with this order, are still very much a paper airplane project. We need to jusst sit back and see where they are a year from now.


Excuse me, or should I say that's laughable, or just throw the BS flag on your statement.

There are going to be far more used 777 P2Fs available than anyone will every want to have.

Boeing core market in this case is new 77XF aircraft; and there will be freight airlines who will want a new freighter based on increased fuel efficiency, cargo capabilities, and other factors. Will those be 77XF or A350F is the multi-$Billion question.

If Mammoth succeeds then Boeing could gain a very small increase in part sales by selling cargo door assemblies; but, no way is someone who wants a 777P2F going to buy a new 77XF or A350F and affect Boeing's core market.

Your statement appears to be laughable at best...

Please think it through... In many other cases you have presented many reasonable arguments on other issues.


That's quite the rude response and conveniently ignores that for the next (at least) five years, Boeing's "core market" is still the 777-200LRF. That product will certainly compete to an extent with the 77W conversions. Indeed, look no further to EK and DHL (Kalitta), both of which have 777-200LRFs but have signed on for IAI 77W conversions. They aren't direct competitors, but there is certainly overlap.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:31 pm

2175301 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
2175301 wrote:

It's just a part sale... and P2F projects do not affect the Boeing backlog on new production. Customers who buy P2F are not looking for new aircraft for the service they are buying P2F for.

Boeing (and Airbus) loves that their passenger aircraft are converted to P2F, even if they don't do the conversion, as it means long term sales of parts and other support for that aircraft... and parts and support are solidly profitable.

"Several paragraphs deleted for readability: See above"


Because it's a critical part that cannibalizes its own core business?

Mammoth, even with this order, are still very much a paper airplane project. We need to jusst sit back and see where they are a year from now.


Excuse me, or should I say that's laughable, or just throw the BS flag on your statement.

There are going to be far more used 777 P2Fs available than anyone will every want to have.

Boeing core market in this case is new 77XF aircraft; and there will be freight airlines who will want a new freighter based on increased fuel efficiency, cargo capabilities, and other factors. Will those be 77XF or A350F is the multi-$Billion question.

If Mammoth succeeds then Boeing could gain a very small increase in part sales by selling cargo door assemblies; but, no way is someone who wants a 777P2F going to buy a new 77XF or A350F and affect Boeing's core market.

Your statement appears to be laughable at best...

Please think it through... In many other cases you have presented many reasonable arguments on other issues.


Yes, just like Boeing's tremendous support on the 737P2F, 747P2F, 757P2F, 767P2F programs.... oh wait there were none and each company had to do engineering from scratch. Boeing has factory freighters, and they also have their own BCF lines for the 738, 763 and formerly 747 family. Supplying a vital part to a direct competitor for a conversion like a prefabbed and certified cargo door is not in their interests.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:27 am

AFAIK the 777F main deck cargo door and door frame are produced by a subcontractor, not by Boeing.
However Boeing has the engineering rights.
In the contract between Boeing and this subcontractor are some legal sentences included that probited the sale of these items to a third party.
Only with permission from Boeing a sale to another customer would be allowed.

Does anybody know the name of the subcontractor involved ? I couldn't find it !!!
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:54 am

747classic wrote:
AFAIK the 777F main deck cargo door and door frame are produced by a subcontractor, not by Boeing.
However Boeing has the engineering rights.
In the contract between Boeing and this subcontractor are some legal sentences included that probited the sale of these items to a third party.
Only with permission from Boeing a sale to another customer would be allowed.

Does anybody know the name of the subcontractor involved ? I couldn't find it !!!

I found this.

https://www.latecoere.aero/en/aerostruc ... /produits/
 
Boof02671
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:56 am

And IAI has cut the metal out of the hull for their cargo door.

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/iai-mar ... 0ersf/?amp
 
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747classic
Topic Author
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:57 am

Boof02671 wrote:
747classic wrote:
AFAIK the 777F main deck cargo door and door frame are produced by a subcontractor, not by Boeing.
However Boeing has the engineering rights.
In the contract between Boeing and this subcontractor are some legal sentences included that probited the sale of these items to a third party.
Only with permission from Boeing a sale to another customer would be allowed.

Does anybody know the name of the subcontractor involved ? I couldn't find it !!!

I found this.

https://www.latecoere.aero/en/aerostruc ... /produits/


I saw that also, but the picture shown is of a lower hold cargo door
 
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Polot
Posts: 12649
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:27 am

747classic wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
747classic wrote:
AFAIK the 777F main deck cargo door and door frame are produced by a subcontractor, not by Boeing.
However Boeing has the engineering rights.
In the contract between Boeing and this subcontractor are some legal sentences included that probited the sale of these items to a third party.
Only with permission from Boeing a sale to another customer would be allowed.

Does anybody know the name of the subcontractor involved ? I couldn't find it !!!

I found this.

https://www.latecoere.aero/en/aerostruc ... /produits/


I saw that also, but the picture shown is of a lower hold cargo door

Are you sure? The picture they have under “All our products” for the 777F looks a lot like the main cargo door. The lower cargo doors are not that tall compared to a normal size person (that can be seen in the picture).
 
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Stitch
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:01 pm

747classic wrote:
I saw that also, but the picture shown is of a lower hold cargo door


With respect, the image shown in Boeing 777 Freighter - cargo door is clearly the main deck cargo door. Look how much taller it is than the worker next to it.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:16 pm

Stitch wrote:
747classic wrote:
I saw that also, but the picture shown is of a lower hold cargo door


With respect, the image shown in Boeing 777 Freighter - cargo door is clearly the main deck cargo door. Look how much taller it is than the worker next to it.


You are completly right, I looked at the rotating pictures under "products - aircraft doors" and looked at the following pic :
Image

But the question remains : will Latecoure be allowed to deliver a 777F main deck door to a third party, without Boeing's approval.
 
2175301
Posts: 2246
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:27 pm

Spacepope wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

Because it's a critical part that cannibalizes its own core business?

Mammoth, even with this order, are still very much a paper airplane project. We need to jusst sit back and see where they are a year from now.


Excuse me, or should I say that's laughable, or just throw the BS flag on your statement.

There are going to be far more used 777 P2Fs available than anyone will every want to have.

Boeing core market in this case is new 77XF aircraft; and there will be freight airlines who will want a new freighter based on increased fuel efficiency, cargo capabilities, and other factors. Will those be 77XF or A350F is the multi-$Billion question.

If Mammoth succeeds then Boeing could gain a very small increase in part sales by selling cargo door assemblies; but, no way is someone who wants a 777P2F going to buy a new 77XF or A350F and affect Boeing's core market.

Your statement appears to be laughable at best...

Please think it through... In many other cases you have presented many reasonable arguments on other issues.


Yes, just like Boeing's tremendous support on the 737P2F, 747P2F, 757P2F, 767P2F programs.... oh wait there were none and each company had to do engineering from scratch. Boeing has factory freighters, and they also have their own BCF lines for the 738, 763 and formerly 747 family. Supplying a vital part to a direct competitor for a conversion like a prefabbed and certified cargo door is not in their interests.


Do you understand why Boeing has not supported other companies P2F programs. Legal liability related to the calculations and recertification process. If they supply any engineering data or other design support then Boeing shares legal liability if something goes wrong with the modified aircraft, such as a crash, and there are major lawsuits.

Boeing best strategy in those cases is to stay totally clear of any involvement in the redesign and recertification of their used airliners.

I do note that Boeing has their own 737-800 & 767-300 BCF (P2F) programs... engineered by Boeing - and they get paid for their legal risk from anyone who orders them.

However, in the case of just selling a part - such as a cargo door. Boeing in only legally liable for the proper function of the part if installed properly. I'm sure that Boeing has virtually zero legal liability with a cargo door assembly since Boeing has sold several hundred 777 freighters... with more on order and no history of problems with how its cargo door works.

So in this case: a cargo door assembly sale is just selling a part.

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