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2175301
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:32 pm

747classic wrote:
But the question remains : will Latecoure be allowed to deliver a 777F main deck door to a third party, without Boeing's approval.


I would not expect so. Boeing would have to approve the sale.

To me, it's Boeing's part to sell. Not Latecoure's.
 
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Polot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:44 pm

2175301 wrote:
747classic wrote:
But the question remains : will Latecoure be allowed to deliver a 777F main deck door to a third party, without Boeing's approval.


I would not expect so. Boeing would have to approve the sale.

To me, it's Boeing's part to sell. Not Latecoure's.

Correct, it is Boeing’s IP. Latecoure just manufactures it for them.
 
AirlineBob
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:54 pm

wjcandee wrote:
interesting that the specs of the paper airplane, the one that hasn't been engineered yet, are better than the one that has been fully-engineered and has been cutting metal?

Put another way, fascinating that the folks at IAI, who have delivered well over 250 converted aircraft which have accumulated over 2.5 million flight hours, weren't able to produce an aircraft with specs as good as the 11-employee engineering firm that supports Mammoth.


Looking at Mammoth's website, it states "Mammoth is backed by private investment funds managed by Fortress Investment Group LLC and its affiliates..."

So, it kinda seems like Mammoth is just like any other private-equity backed startup. They have a lot of lofty goals and over-aggressive timelines. Private equity throws Mammoth a bunch of money, since that's the private equity business model: throw a bunch of money at a bunch of start-ups, and hope 1 in 10 earns a good return.

The question then becomes: Will Mammoth turn out like Uber? Or like Pets.com?
 
Newark727
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:02 pm

AirlineBob wrote:
Looking at Mammoth's website, it states "Mammoth is backed by private investment funds managed by Fortress Investment Group LLC and its affiliates..."

So, it kinda seems like Mammoth is just like any other private-equity backed startup. They have a lot of lofty goals and over-aggressive timelines. Private equity throws Mammoth a bunch of money, since that's the private equity business model: throw a bunch of money at a bunch of start-ups, and hope 1 in 10 earns a good return.

The question then becomes: Will Mammoth turn out like Uber? Or like Pets.com?


Has Uber actually made money yet, though?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:24 pm

Newark727 wrote:
AirlineBob wrote:
Looking at Mammoth's website, it states "Mammoth is backed by private investment funds managed by Fortress Investment Group LLC and its affiliates..."

So, it kinda seems like Mammoth is just like any other private-equity backed startup. They have a lot of lofty goals and over-aggressive timelines. Private equity throws Mammoth a bunch of money, since that's the private equity business model: throw a bunch of money at a bunch of start-ups, and hope 1 in 10 earns a good return.

The question then becomes: Will Mammoth turn out like Uber? Or like Pets.com?


Has Uber actually made money yet, though?


Even without a profit, its made the investors a lot of money.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:35 pm

I just confirmed that one of the jets cargojet bought is MSN 29742 also known as N705DN. it also is most likely the plane in this picture
Image

Source: https://b603ba0c-6f59-4554-a851-83a935b ... 45a342.pdf
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:59 am

Comparison between the preliminary specifications of the Mammouth 777-200LRMF and the factory built B777F, according the Boeing ACAPS figures.
The preliminary OEW is considerable(10.300 lbs) lower (caused by installation of composite floor beams i.s.o. the aluminium 777F beams ? ) than the actual OEW of the 777F.

Mammouth – 777-200LRMF

MTOW 766.000 lbs / 347,452 kgs
OEW 308,000 lbs / 139,707 kgs
Payload 233,000 lbs / 105.687 kgs
MZFW 541.000 lbs / 245,393 kgs
MLW 570.000 lbs / 258,548 kgs

Boeing 777F

MTOW 766.800 lbs / 347.815 kgs
OEW 318.300 lbs / 144.379 kgs
Payload 228.700 lbs / 103.737 kgs
MZFW 547.000 lbs / 248.115 kgs
MLW 575.000 lbs / 260.816 kgs.

See : https://www.mammoth777.com/777-200lrmf
And at page 2-2 : https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:03 am

747classic wrote:
Comparison between the preliminary specifications of the Mammouth 777-200LRMF and the factory built B777F, according the Boeing ACAPS figures.
The preliminary OEW is considerable(10.300 lbs) lower (caused by installation of composite floor beams i.s.o. the aluminium 777F beams ? ) than the actual OEW of the 777F.

Mammouth – 777-200LRMF

MTOW 766.000 lbs / 347,452 kgs
OEW 308,000 lbs / 139,707 kgs
Payload 233,000 lbs / 105.687 kgs
MZFW 541.000 lbs / 245,393 kgs
MLW 570.000 lbs / 258,548 kgs

Boeing 777F

MTOW 766.800 lbs / 347.815 kgs
OEW 318.300 lbs / 144.379 kgs
Payload 228.700 lbs / 103.737 kgs
MZFW 547.000 lbs / 248.115 kgs
MLW 575.000 lbs / 260.816 kgs.

See : https://www.mammoth777.com/777-200lrmf
And at page 2-2 : https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf


That 10,000 lb difference is probably the heavier floor beams in the 77F Roughly 100 beams each 40# extra. 100 floor sections each 60# more. That is only a couple pounds per SF added to carry the rolling pallet loads. It's really on the difference between a floor that will hold up verses one that gets dinged up.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:35 pm

Interesting to note that Mammoth's load figures of 160kg per cubic meter match the 777 Freighter so if they are keeping the CFRP floor beams, they must be using some sort of strengthening then since we have read that those beams cannot handle loads that high on their own and is why the 777 freighter uses aluminum ones?

Or is it a case of you can lift 106 tons, just not at 160kg/m3? If you want that density, it needs to be closer to the 120kg/m3 of the 777-300ERMLF?

Or maybe that difference is instead general structural strengthening (airframe and undercarriage) of the factory freighter to handle those heavy freight payloads over the life of the frame compared to the passenger model? So even if the Mammoth frame can match the 777 freighter on payload weight and loading, it would not have the usable service life of a factory freighter due to wear and tear?
 
md11sdf
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:38 pm

I'm wondering....
With the big push to convert Triple Seven's to freighters, especially the -300ER, will UPS finally join the club? Living in Louisville, I certainly hope so!! I have never heard the roar of the GE90-115B in person. That, plus it's economics render the MD-11 (an aircraft I love) virtually unacceptable in today's business world. I wish Mammoth luck in their efforts.
 
UA444
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:49 pm

md11sdf wrote:
I'm wondering....
With the big push to convert Triple Seven's to freighters, especially the -300ER, will UPS finally join the club? Living in Louisville, I certainly hope so!! I have never heard the roar of the GE90-115B in person. That, plus it's economics render the MD-11 (an aircraft I love) virtually unacceptable in today's business world. I wish Mammoth luck in their efforts.

UPS and FX are adding some LH MD-11s to their fleets. They wouldn't do so if it wasn't still a good freighter.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:56 pm

Stitch wrote:
Interesting to note that Mammoth's load figures of 160kg per cubic meter match the 777 Freighter so if they are keeping the CFRP floor beams, they must be using some sort of strengthening then since we have read that those beams cannot handle loads that high on their own and is why the 777 freighter uses aluminum ones?

Or is it a case of you can lift 106 tons, just not at 160kg/m3? If you want that density, it needs to be closer to the 120kg/m3 of the 777-300ERMLF?

Or maybe that difference is instead general structural strengthening (airframe and undercarriage) of the factory freighter to handle those heavy freight payloads over the life of the frame compared to the passenger model? So even if the Mammoth frame can match the 777 freighter on payload weight and loading, it would not have the usable service life of a factory freighter due to wear and tear?


Due the increased operating weights( MZFW, MLW) of the 777F, compared to the 777-200LR and -300ER, the 777F max cycle live (LOV) has already been reduced from 60.000 cycles to 37.500 cycles.
Because not all structural parts can be strengthend during the P-F conversion, the max cycle live of the 777-200LRMF and the 777-300ERMF (and also the IAI 777-300ERSF) could be reduced even further.
As stated by the OEM : the wear and tear (of the not reinforced parts) will increase if the operating weights are increased.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:14 pm

UA444 wrote:
md11sdf wrote:
I'm wondering....
With the big push to convert Triple Seven's to freighters, especially the -300ER, will UPS finally join the club? Living in Louisville, I certainly hope so!! I have never heard the roar of the GE90-115B in person. That, plus it's economics render the MD-11 (an aircraft I love) virtually unacceptable in today's business world. I wish Mammoth luck in their efforts.

UPS and FX are adding some LH MD-11s to their fleets. They wouldn't do so if it wasn't still a good freighter.


The UPS MD11 fleet, will last at least 5 more years, before the oldest are retired first.
The MD11 can be used at domestic short routes (plenty of cycles left), fitting at the parking position of the short haul fleet and occasionally can be used at the international routes, when needed.
The acquisition cost of the last 5 MD11F's was relative low, the residual book value of most MD11's is even lower, or even zero.
The MD11 maintenance cost are some what higher (one extra engine), but the MD11 aging aircraft costs (AD's) are one of the lowest, compared to other aircraft types.
The only drawback could be a massive rise in fuel costs, but at the current MD11 UPS network (90% shorthaul stretches) the extra fuel consumption will be easy offset by the low A-M-I costs..
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:19 pm

md11sdf wrote:
I'm wondering....
With the big push to convert Triple Seven's to freighters, especially the -300ER, will UPS finally join the club? Living in Louisville, I certainly hope so!! I have never heard the roar of the GE90-115B in person. That, plus it's economics render the MD-11 (an aircraft I love) virtually unacceptable in today's business world. I wish Mammoth luck in their efforts.


There are huge costs to adding any flavor of 777 to replace MD-11s for UPS or FX, solely because of the wingspan. MD-11s fit in the same gates as A300s and 767s. 777s can't, they need wider ones, which will require a complete rework of the ground handling footprint losing gates.
 
Cardude2
Posts: 510
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:47 am

Spacepope wrote:
md11sdf wrote:
I'm wondering....
With the big push to convert Triple Seven's to freighters, especially the -300ER, will UPS finally join the club? Living in Louisville, I certainly hope so!! I have never heard the roar of the GE90-115B in person. That, plus it's economics render the MD-11 (an aircraft I love) virtually unacceptable in today's business world. I wish Mammoth luck in their efforts.


There are huge costs to adding any flavor of 777 to replace MD-11s for UPS or FX, solely because of the wingspan. MD-11s fit in the same gates as A300s and 767s. 777s can't, they need wider ones, which will require a complete rework of the ground handling footprint losing gates.


And as the MD-11's age away to death that's going to need to happen because they will have no choice.

Additionally FX already has a flurry of 777F's so this program would be perfect for them
UPS will probably just buy a bunch of A350F's
 
2175301
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:49 am

Cardude2 wrote:
And as the MD-11's age away to death that's going to need to happen because they will have no choice.

Additionally FX already has a flurry of 777F's so this program would be perfect for them
UPS will probably just buy a bunch of A350F's


I expect that the 764F will be in production by the time the MD-11's age away (my information is that the 764F project with the engines from the 748 is ready to launch as soon as someone orders it; which gives UPS and FedEx a choice for domestic flying, even though their capability is smaller. Given the wingspan issue - I would expect at least half of the MD-11's to be replaced by the 764F. However, I do not expect a launch of the 764F until 2024/2025 as the 763F is more economical to purchase at this time.

For international flying FedEx and UPS will have to choose either the B777XF or the A350. That is a total unknown at this point. There is no "probably" at this point; but there are "possibilities" for either aircraft at this point.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:51 am

Cardude2 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
md11sdf wrote:
I'm wondering....
With the big push to convert Triple Seven's to freighters, especially the -300ER, will UPS finally join the club? Living in Louisville, I certainly hope so!! I have never heard the roar of the GE90-115B in person. That, plus it's economics render the MD-11 (an aircraft I love) virtually unacceptable in today's business world. I wish Mammoth luck in their efforts.


There are huge costs to adding any flavor of 777 to replace MD-11s for UPS or FX, solely because of the wingspan. MD-11s fit in the same gates as A300s and 767s. 777s can't, they need wider ones, which will require a complete rework of the ground handling footprint losing gates.


And as the MD-11's age away to death that's going to need to happen because they will have no choice.

Additionally FX already has a flurry of 777F's so this program would be perfect for them
UPS will probably just buy a bunch of A350F's


None of these MD-11s are near the end of their service lives for hours or cycles, replacement by 777s isn’t actually all that urgent on that front.

And it doesn’t matter if FX is adding 777Fs now, they’re still parking them remote at MEM for loading, while the old DC-10 gates are being filled with new 767Fs.

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