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747classic
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Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:03 pm

Mammoth freighter launches two 777 P-F programs :

777-200LR ---------- 777-200LRMF
777-300ER --------- 777-300ERMF

See : https://www.mammoth777.com/
 
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zkojq
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:10 pm

Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:15 pm

Who are these guys? I’ve never heard of Mammoth Freighters.

zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


My guess is the higher MTOW of the LR makes it a better freighter. While feedstock is limited, the caliber of the feedstock is better since the airplanes are younger and have fewer cycles. There may only be about 60 in the world, but they will make much better freighters than lower payload 20+ year old ERs.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:17 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


My guess is the higher MTOW of the LR makes it a better freighter. While feedstock is limited, the caliber of the feedstock is better since the airplanes are younger and have fewer cycles. There may only be about 60 in the world, but they will make much better freighters than lower payload 20+ year old ERs.

Also probably sharing engineering with the more similar -300ER.

If you look at the About Us page Mammoth purchased DL’s 10 77Ls for conversion.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:24 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


The Mammoth link above shows a DL 777LR in a hangar with Mammoth on the side and mentions that 10 are available.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:33 pm

Mammoth Freighters is the bunch that spawned the guy who is using the University of Wichita or whatever as the engineering source. He split from the original two guys to form whatever his company is. He wanted a third and knew little about conversions; they knew about conversions but knew little about financing and didn't think it was worth a third, according to allegations in the lawsuit between them.

We'll see if any of them get enough financing to do the engineering. I'm sure they'd like a GECAS or similar as a backer, like IAI has. Why anybody would buy an aircraft as large and complex from a Brand X, when experienced conversion engineers like Precision, PEMCO, AEI, etc., haven't touched it is beyond me.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:36 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


Looks like only 60 total 777-200LRs delivered. What's the status of the frames operated by AC, QR & ET?
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


Because the 777-300ER and the 777-200LR have an identical wing structure and wing span. Also the center wing structure is identical, like the landing gears.
Except for the fuselage length, most stress calculations are (near) identical, unlike the lighter constructed 777-200ER.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:06 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


Looks like only 60 total 777-200LRs delivered. What's the status of the frames operated by AC, QR & ET?

Commercial
Etihad Airways - 5 all scrapped
Ethiopian - 6 all service
Air India - 3 in service
Delta - 10 all in storage
Qatar - 9 all in service
Iraqi Airways - 1 in service
Turkmenistan Airlines - 3 all in service
PIA Pakistan International Airlines - 2 in service
Air Canada - 6 in service
Emirates - 10 in service

Private/ Government
Equatorial Guinea Government - 1 in service
Ceiba Intercontinental - 1 in service
Crystal Luxury - 1 in service
Aviation Link Company - 1 in service
AZAL Azerbaijan Airlines - 1 in service (VIP use)
Turkmenistan Airlines - 1 in service (VIP use)
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:46 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Who are these guys? I’ve never heard of Mammoth Freighters.

A less than 1 year old company... I'll hold my peace.
 
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747classic
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:55 pm

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.


Looks like only 60 total 777-200LRs delivered. What's the status of the frames operated by AC, QR & ET?

Commercial
Etihad Airways - 5 all scrapped


Only one seems to have been scrapped (ex A6-LRC Broken up Jul 2019 at GBA) , according planespotter.net, all others (4X) are stored (I don't know the exact condition) at SBD.
Now registered N280UA ,N281UA, N283UA and N284UA and assigned in the FAA registry.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:03 pm

747classic wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:

Looks like only 60 total 777-200LRs delivered. What's the status of the frames operated by AC, QR & ET?

Commercial
Etihad Airways - 5 all scrapped


Only one seems to have been scrapped (ex A6-LRC Broken up Jul 2019 at GBA) , according planespotter.net, all others (4X) are stored (I don't know the exact condition) at SBD.
Now registered N280UA ,N281UA, N283UA and N284UA and assigned in the FAA registry.

N280UA ,N281UA, N283UA
Image
SBD by Dylan Phelps, on Flickr

Image
SBD by Dylan Phelps, on Flickr

N284UA
Image
San Bernadino SBD/KSBD on 08-03-20 by Dan Raistrick, on Flickr

A6-LRC
Image
A6-LRC by Alec Wilson, on Flickr
 
MO11
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:14 pm

So 9H-AIL (formerly A6-ECL) which flew into McConnell AFB last Thursday is going to be a Mammoth development aircraft?

wjcandee wrote:
We'll see if any of them get enough financing to do the engineering. I'm sure they'd like a GECAS or similar as a backer, like IAI has.


Website says it has Fortress behind it.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Who are these guys? I’ve never heard of Mammoth Freighters.

A less than 1 year old company... I'll hold my peace.


Backed by a $50B+ investment firm (Fortress), with Mammoth specifically formed for the purpose of 777 freighter conversions.
Last edited by jbs2886 on Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:37 pm

MO11 wrote:
So 9H-AIL (formerly A6-ECL) which flew into McConnell AFB last Thursday is going to be a Mammoth development aircraft?


I thought that was the other guys. Let me look at the lawsuit again.

Yeah, this is the Wagner guys; the guy who hooked up with Kansas is the other guy. The three were gonna do this together, but then they split up. So now both groups are claiming to have the ability to field an aircraft in the next two years. This web site is weird, in that it makes forward looking statements that seem like bold promises: we WILL have a freighter; it WILL be in service by X. Yikes. We WILL somehow also have our own airline which will fly our owned/converted 777s for customers.

Good luck, guys. Let me go check my investment in Family Airlines.
Last edited by wjcandee on Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:38 pm

MO11 wrote:
Website says it has Fortress behind it.


Didn't they invest in Theranos, too? (JK)
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:45 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
Website says it has Fortress behind it.


Didn't they invest in Theranos, too? (JK)


Yes, and got the Theranos patents...which turned out to be a good investment for Fortress.
 
Newark727
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:47 pm

So wait, how many 777 freighter conversion programs does that make now? Is it like the old joke about London buses where you wait ages and then three show up at once?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:48 pm

Makes sense to me to use the 777-200LR as the basis, since that is what Boeing used for the 777 Freighter.

And even if the feed-stock is "low", there are a bit over 200 factory-built 777 Freighters so even a potential market of 50 "777LRF" might be too ambitious.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:48 pm

Newark727 wrote:
So wait, how many 777 freighter conversion programs does that make now? Is it like the old joke about London buses where you wait ages and then three show up at once?


IAI/GECAS
Kansas/whatever it is now
Mammoth
Eastern (although seems like conversion-lite)

There will be enough feedstock for the programs - but demand?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:11 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Who are these guys? I’ve never heard of Mammoth Freighters.

A less than 1 year old company... I'll hold my peace.


Backed by a $50B+ investment firm (Fortress), with Mammoth specifically formed for the purpose of 777 freighter conversions.


I think "backed by" is a little-aggressive. You don't know what the details are of the relationship with Fortress.

Mammoth is the name of the entity that Wagner and Tarpley created to pursue the plan that they initially formulated before approaching Dotzenroth about being the financing-finder. Sequoia is the company that Dotzenroth formed to pursue doing 777 conversions after Wagner and Tarpley couldn't come to terms with him about what share he would have in the company they were talking about forming together. At least that's my reading of the complaint in the lawsuit. Dotzenroth was out looking for customers and financing well-ahead, it appears, of the Mammoth guys.

In the last few days, it looks like Mammoth has gone aggressively after NAIR, the university program, seeking discovery of a bunch of stuff.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:25 pm

wjcandee wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
A less than 1 year old company... I'll hold my peace.


Backed by a $50B+ investment firm (Fortress), with Mammoth specifically formed for the purpose of 777 freighter conversions.


I think "backed by" is a little-aggressive. You don't know what the details are of the relationship with Fortress.


I can absolutely say "backed by" - it is exactly the term Mammoth uses.

From Mammoth's website: "Mammoth is backed by private investment funds managed by Fortress Investment Group LLC and its affiliates (Fortress) and based in Orlando, Florida with an additional office in Escondido, California." https://www.mammoth777.com/about

Here is the PR: "The Company is backed by private investment funds managed by Fortress Investment Group LLC and its affiliates (Fortress)." https://b603ba0c-6f59-4554-a851-83a935b ... 1a7d7d.pdf
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:35 pm

Relax, my friend. I'm not criticizing you using the term; I'm criticizing them using the term. Indeed, you're proving my point. That THEY say they're "backed by" some investment fund that's managed by Fortress means nothing. We don't know the terms of the actual relationship or the limits of the commitment. For all we know, that fund is providing cash flow to fund lawyers in the IP suit and that's it. And they are in no way bound by the truth. It doesn't have to be true to say it on the Internet.

In the same website, they also firmly commit to have an approved, operating, converted freighter flying in 2023. No public company would make such a claim, and few companies with smart lawyers would, either. This reeks of Amateur Hour. They're clearly paying lawyers in their IP suit against Dotzenroth, though.

This whole sudden PR thing could be part of their overall strategy in their lawsuit. If they have a web site and a press release making grand claims, they don't appear to be behind where Dotzenroth and NIAR are. Photoshop a couple of planes. Have someone's kid come up with some grand verbiage -- VOILA! Website.

One obvious potential endgame is for the two to settle the IP suit by combing forces somehow. Otherwise, you're going to have one Blue Chip conversion, which is the GECAS/IAI one, and two that are less-so. How that could succeed in the market is unknown. And you could end up with yet another if Boeing decides to do one, and even one more if another major lessor decides to team up with an experienced conversion house like Precision, AEI, ST Aero, etc.
 
marcelh
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:22 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Who are these guys? I’ve never heard of Mammoth Freighters.

A less than 1 year old company... I'll hold my peace.


Backed by a $50B+ investment firm (Fortress), with Mammoth specifically formed for the purpose of 777 freighter conversions.


Investing money is the easy part, making money is the difficult one….
 
MO11
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:24 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
So 9H-AIL (formerly A6-ECL) which flew into McConnell AFB last Thursday is going to be a Mammoth development aircraft?


I thought that was the other guys. Let me look at the lawsuit again.

Yeah, this is the Wagner guys; the guy who hooked up with Kansas is the other guy. The three were gonna do this together, but then they split up. So now both groups are claiming to have the ability to field an aircraft in the next two years. This web site is weird, in that it makes forward looking statements that seem like bold promises: we WILL have a freighter; it WILL be in service by X. Yikes. We WILL somehow also have our own airline which will fly our owned/converted 777s for customers.

Good luck, guys. Let me go check my investment in Family Airlines.



You're right. That one is Sequoia Conversions.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:50 pm

Newark727 wrote:
So wait, how many 777 freighter conversion programs does that make now? Is it like the old joke about London buses where you wait ages and then three show up at once?


One could make the argument that there is still only one program.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Relax, my friend. I'm not criticizing you using the term; I'm criticizing them using the term. Indeed, you're proving my point. That THEY say they're "backed by" some investment fund that's managed by Fortress means nothing. We don't know the terms of the actual relationship or the limits of the commitment. For all we know, that fund is providing cash flow to fund lawyers in the IP suit and that's it. And they are in no way bound by the truth. It doesn't have to be true to say it on the Internet.

In the same website, they also firmly commit to have an approved, operating, converted freighter flying in 2023. No public company would make such a claim, and few companies with smart lawyers would, either. This reeks of Amateur Hour. They're clearly paying lawyers in their IP suit against Dotzenroth, though.

This whole sudden PR thing could be part of their overall strategy in their lawsuit. If they have a web site and a press release making grand claims, they don't appear to be behind where Dotzenroth and NIAR are. Photoshop a couple of planes. Have someone's kid come up with some grand verbiage -- VOILA! Website.

One obvious potential endgame is for the two to settle the IP suit by combing forces somehow. Otherwise, you're going to have one Blue Chip conversion, which is the GECAS/IAI one, and two that are less-so. How that could succeed in the market is unknown. And you could end up with yet another if Boeing decides to do one, and even one more if another major lessor decides to team up with an experienced conversion house like Precision, AEI, ST Aero, etc.


Apparently Mammoth got enough funding to purchase the 10 B77L's that were in Delta's fleet. Since these were already written down on Delta's books, I imagine they sold for something just above scrap value.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines

As you point out, Mammoth still has lots of issues to work through before they can fully put their plans into motion. They need to find a subcontractor with a facility capable of doing the actual modification work, which likely will be located outside the US to save on labor costs. I, like you, doubt Mammoth can have a plane modified, tested and granted an STC in less than 2 years. But most important, there is the need for a paying customer and who that might be - FedEx? Kalitta? AeroLogic? Atlas Air Group? A Chinese airline?
 
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Polot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:21 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
But most important, there is the need for a paying customer and who that might be - FedEx? Kalitta? AeroLogic? Atlas Air Group? A Chinese airline?

They could be starting the conversion without a customer. If successful they would probably not have a major issue finding somewhere to place the plane, although whether there are enough 77Ls to convert to cover the certification costs and make Mammoth a net profit is another question.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:30 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
But most important, there is the need for a paying customer and who that might be - FedEx? Kalitta? AeroLogic? Atlas Air Group? A Chinese airline?


They're all going to be chasing the same customers. Interestingly, the Complaint in the lawsuit alleges that air freight companies typically buy their conversions from just one company. That actually hasn't been the case recently, except where there's only one good one. People have multiple brands of 757 conversion in-house. Atlas bought both IAI and Boeing 767 conversions. DHL the same thing. Same thing with 737 conversions. Same thing with DHL and the A321 conversion. True that FedEx only has one brand of 757, etc. I think ability to deliver in the desired time frame is one factor, as is perceived quality of the product.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 am

wjcandee wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
But most important, there is the need for a paying customer and who that might be - FedEx? Kalitta? AeroLogic? Atlas Air Group? A Chinese airline?


They're all going to be chasing the same customers. Interestingly, the Complaint in the lawsuit alleges that air freight companies typically buy their conversions from just one company. That actually hasn't been the case recently, except where there's only one good one. People have multiple brands of 757 conversion in-house. Atlas bought both IAI and Boeing 767 conversions. DHL the same thing. Same thing with 737 conversions. Same thing with DHL and the A321 conversion. True that FedEx only has one brand of 757, etc. I think ability to deliver in the desired time frame is one factor, as is perceived quality of the product.


One possible target customer might be the post-Asiana-merger, Korean Air. They are inheriting 12 B744 freighters from Asiana which Korean plans to retire along with Korean's remaining 4 B744F's. It appears they want to rationalize their freighter fleet to B77F's and B748F's, but they still might need to replace some of the B744F lift. Perhaps these 10 B77LCF's from Mammoth might be attractive to Korean Air?
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:08 am

What is the approximate cost to convert P777 to cargo?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:03 am

FlyingJhawk wrote:
What is the approximate cost to convert P777 to cargo?


Well, we haven't seen one certified yet, but likely somewhere between the 767 and the 747. However, because there may be a more-complex set of work needing to be done on the floor, it might trend more towards the 747 price than the 767. And it depends on vendor. The IAI conversion on the 767 is less-expensive than the Boeing version. And, it depends on how much work needs to be done in the heavy-check that would be part of the conversion total cost.

So, a 767 conversion, all-in, including the D-check and remedying what it finds, is $13-14 million at IAI for a regular customer. A 747-400 conversion, all-in, at IAI is 20-25 million, depending on several things. So I think you'll find the IAI conversion of the 777-300 will be between those two, including the D-check. For comparison, an A330 conversion is said to be in the high teens.
 
Niloko
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:53 am

zkojq wrote:
Why the 777-200LR and not the -200ER? The LR has very limited feedstock. I'm fairly sure that the only LRs available are the ten ex-DL ones, with the ex-AI/EY ones being scrapped a while back. Loads of -200ER is feedstock available.

Because the 777-200LR and 300ER are both 2nd gen 777s meaning it'll probably be easier to run a program that converts both of them. For example it's like if someone started a conversion program for A330-900 (77W) and A330-800 (77L) instead of A330-900 (77W) and A330-200 (772).

The main goal of Mammoth is clearly the 777-300ER here.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:22 pm

747classic wrote:
Mammoth freighter launches two 777 P-F programs :

777-200LR ---------- 777-200LRMF
777-300ER --------- 777-300ERMF

See : https://www.mammoth777.com/

I like the naming scheme: the best MF-ing freighters on the market! :biggrin:

I'll get me coat...
 
 
dispatchguy
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:41 pm

Wow, an MZFW of 541.0, and a MLDW of 558.0

Yawn. Even with an OEW of 308.0, is there a minimum flight weight to worry about? The Freighter 777 has a Min Flight Weight of 293.0, but since these were all Pax birds at first, I wonder what their MFW was...
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:28 pm

Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted I wonder at all of these rosy predictions for massive demand for converted 777s. The only scenario I see for that demand to materialize is if passenger traffic does not rebound, raising demand for dedicated freighters and creating a big surplus of widebodies. Remember, what cratered demand for converted freighters was the sudden increase in belly freight capacity created by the 77W, 787, A330 and A350, all of which had considerably more freight capacity than the 747 or A380. I think IAI, being well established and having a head start, will probably do OK, but the others I think will lose their shirts.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:52 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted


What? FAR more than 20 767-300ERs have been converted. Amazon alone has 51.
 
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Polot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:55 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted I wonder at all of these rosy predictions for massive demand for converted 777s.

Far more than 20 763s have been converted. Atlas Air alone operates 25-none new build freighters. You must be looking at a number from a single converter.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:56 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted.


Say what now? There are at least 90 763 conversions being: (1) operated for Amazon by all carriers; and (2) leased by CAM for operation by others and/or for others (e.g. Cargojet, Amerijet, Aloha, NAC, UPS, and ABX-for-DHL). So that doesn't count a lot of operations and lessors. And there are 10 CAM and Amazon-owned 763s in or just done with conversion by IAI at TLV and MEX, and 12 purchased, sitting, and ready to go get converted.

I'm thinking that you may have just transposed the 744 and 763 in your post, but even with that the numbers are light.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:14 am

I confirmed in their media section that they currently have a delta 777-200lr for conversion. https://www.mammoth777.com/media

and "Mammoth offers for sale or lease ten 777-200LRMF converted freighters having less than 5,000 cycles since new and with GE90-110B1 engines. The first aircraft will be available and fully ready for freighter operations in the second half of 2023."

isn't that the entire delta fleet?
 
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Polot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:18 am

Cardude2 wrote:

isn't that the entire delta fleet?

Yes. Mammoth purchased all 10 from DL.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:20 am

wjcandee wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted.


Say what now? There are at least 90 763 conversions being: (1) operated for Amazon by all carriers; and (2) leased by CAM for operation by others and/or for others (e.g. Cargojet, Amerijet, Aloha, NAC, UPS, and ABX-for-DHL). So that doesn't count a lot of operations and lessors. And there are 10 CAM and Amazon-owned 763s in or just done with conversion by IAI at TLV and MEX, and 12 purchased, sitting, and ready to go get converted.

I'm thinking that you may have just transposed the 744 and 763 in your post, but even with that the numbers are light.

Here’s where I got the information. I had a hard time finding numbers.
http://www.aircargopedia.com/passengertofreightpg.htm
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:33 am

jbs2886 wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted


What? FAR more than 20 767-300ERs have been converted. Amazon alone has 51.

Bedek (now IAI) by 2019 had already converted 105 767s:
https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/ca ... reighters/

Then there are the Boeing BCFs. Boeing is scrambling to open new 767 conversion lines (multiple):
https://aviationweek.com/mro/aircraft-p ... lines-asia

I couldn't find out how many total 767 conversions, but only 20 must be one shop for Bedek/IAI or Boeing. They are the only active 767 conversions I could find:

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/convers ... eyond/amp/

That said, the 747BDSFs and MD-11Fs need replacement. There is a huge 777 conversion potential. IAI will try to gain the bulk of the market. I'm not going to be investing in the MF... There is a market, I'll let others take the risk.

Lightsaber
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:06 am

SEPilot wrote:


Understood. I had the Amazon/ATSG numbers at my fingertips, but I'm not sure where I would look for absolutely-current numbers. I think the article was just old. IAI has had a real winner with its 763 conversion, and Boeing's no slouch on theirs, either. However, people seem to go to the BCF mostly when IAI isn't available, and even though ATSG tied up several lines at TLV in advance, a goodly number of other aircraft have in fact gone through IAI, including at least 11 for Atlas's leasing company.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:11 am

SEPilot wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted.


Say what now? There are at least 90 763 conversions being: (1) operated for Amazon by all carriers; and (2) leased by CAM for operation by others and/or for others (e.g. Cargojet, Amerijet, Aloha, NAC, UPS, and ABX-for-DHL). So that doesn't count a lot of operations and lessors. And there are 10 CAM and Amazon-owned 763s in or just done with conversion by IAI at TLV and MEX, and 12 purchased, sitting, and ready to go get converted.

I'm thinking that you may have just transposed the 744 and 763 in your post, but even with that the numbers are light.

Here’s where I got the information. I had a hard time finding numbers.
http://www.aircargopedia.com/passengertofreightpg.htm


IAI/Bedek has converted 70 B763BDSF's, so far. https://www.iai.co.il/p/b767-300bdsf

Boeing/ST Aerospace has delivered, or received orders for 51 B763BCF's, so far: https://aircargoeye.com/dhl-express-opt ... onversion/

I'm not sure that the BCF numbers include this conversion order for 8 from LATAM from March of this year: https://ajot.com/news/latam-announces-t ... freighters

As for the B744 freighter conversions, their extended upper decks make them less desirable than the factory-built, short-upper deck B744F's. These B744 conversions will be phasing out pretty quickly. For example, the B744BDSF's being absorbed into Korean Air Lines as a result of the Asiana merger are planned for retirement. Kalitta will be replacing B744BCF's they are flying for DHL with the upcoming GECAS/IAI B77W converted freighters.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:34 am

SEPilot wrote:
Since a total of 79 744s and 20 763s have been converted I wonder at all of these rosy predictions for massive demand for converted 777s. The only scenario I see for that demand to materialize is if passenger traffic does not rebound, raising demand for dedicated freighters and creating a big surplus of widebodies. Remember, what cratered demand for converted freighters was the sudden increase in belly freight capacity created by the 77W, 787, A330 and A350, all of which had considerably more freight capacity than the 747 or A380. I think IAI, being well established and having a head start, will probably do OK, but the others I think will lose their shirts.


The quantity of existing conversions is now well covered, but the important point that SEPilot makes is - what is the potential demand over the next decade for converted 777LR and 77W freighters. If all the MD-11 and 744 P2F's get replaced, it is about 120 conversions, or 12 per year. That is 5 lines each doing 2-3 per year so the number of 777 conversion lines proposed is near or more than the market can sustain.

Freighter demand will stay high until international passenger demand recovers. Pre-Covid the freighter market wasn't good, with a good bit of excess capacity. EK alone had over 100 77W's carrying lots of belly cargo.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:44 am

Cardude2 wrote:
"Mammoth offers for sale or lease ten 777-200LRMF converted freighters having less than 5,000 cycles since new and with GE90-110B1 engines. The first aircraft will be available and fully ready for freighter operations in the second half of 2023."


Prediction: No it won't. Unless they're talking about the IAI one. :D

A public company never would/could make such a statement.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:49 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
the important point that SEPilot makes is - what is the potential demand over the next decade for converted 777LR and 77W freighters ... the number of 777 conversion lines proposed is near or more than the market can sustain.


And I think that that's a good point. We'll just have to see. GECAS/IAI put their money and experience where their mouths were, and are nearing a certifiable product. The rest is just like guys who have been in the airline business saying, "Let's start an airline." It's a Field of Dreams deal, that split into two Fields of Dreams. And we'll see how it actually plays out.

PS You can't believe that anything on that website or press-release is as vetted and scrupulously-truthful as something that a public company would put out.

I also think that some of this burst of publicity may be driven by developments in the lawsuit between the two groups that used to be working on the same conversion and now are competitors.
 
Cardude2
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Re: Mammoth freighters launches new 777 P-F programs.

Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:16 pm

Found this in the Amazon fleet discussion forum: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1455983&start=950

wjcandee wrote:
Small World note: the guy (company, actually) that Cargojet used to manage the couple of conversions that it did "itself" through IAI was Tarpley, the guy who is part of the Mammoth Aviation lawsuit and purports to have all this conversion knowledge. It appears that he was employed by CAM for a long time in a role that involved interfacing with the conversion vendors, and after he left CAM, he set up a company to help others manage their own conversions. That's why he and the other Mammoth guy, who is an engineer, decided to join forces to try to do their own 777 conversion. (Tarpley was the "conversion expertise" guy, while the other guy was the "engineering expertise" guy.) The third guy involved, who is a defendant in their lawsuit, was a finance guy who walked away to start his own 777 conversion when they weren't willing to give him a third of the company to arrange the financing, and when they kind of downplayed his importance. He then kind of got the drop on them by lining up financing and associating with Wichita State as his engineering source and announcing his conversion. Now that the lawsuit is going hammer and tong, the Mammoth guys finally put up a web site and claim to have financing and to be moving forward fast enough to have a certified, flying, deliverable 777 freighter within 2 years from now. (We'll see.)

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