Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Boeing757100
Topic Author
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:44 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/14/busi ... uptcy.html

Tomorrow (September 14), will show that 16 years have passed since two of the biggest US airlines at the time filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Supposedly, when DL did it, NW filed suit just minutes after! Supposedly, NW was in a better position financially, but eventually, DL made it out as the survivor.

Oil prices were extremely high back then and the shock from the Sept.11 attacks just 4 years prior still shook the industry.

Still, I found it shocking that they both filed ch.11 bankruptcy just minutes after one another, so I thought it was worth posting.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:57 pm

I was with NWA..we knew it was coming as a matter of when not if. NWA it was aftershocks from 9/11 coupled with a sharp revenue Asia-Pacific downturn due to SARS.
Late in the day when we found out Delta filed at the same time many folks were looking at real estate prices in Atlanta.
 
User avatar
TheZ
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:59 pm

RIP MEM and CVG hubs
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:07 pm

Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:
 
UA444
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:24 pm

They both exited BK in 2007, announced merger in April 2008.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:37 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:


If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.
 
User avatar
Boeing757100
Topic Author
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:38 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:


If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.



I thought that NW and DL were a good merger because NW was pretty weak in Africa, while DL was adding a lot of destinations there. DL was also not that strong in Asia, while NW had their huge NRT hub. And the merger also gave DL access to Airbus planes for the first time in over 13 years. This led to them having a huge fleet renewal with a lot of Airbus planes. The A330s also served as solid supplements to DL's 767-300ERs on transatlantic routes. Also, because of the need to replace their DC-9s, it allowed DL to enter the 100-110 seater market via the 717-200 and CS100. Why did DL originally want to go for UA? Just asking, as I think that DL/NW was a pretty good combo.
 
User avatar
southwest1675
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:03 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:42 am

Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1662
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:29 am

DL was not necessarily in a better position. They just happened to be bigger at the time. Still remember all the labor strife NW had after bankruptcy due to abrogating the AMFA contract with the mechanics. The flight attendants were unhappy as well. Rough time at the carriers, bur worth it.
 
UA444
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:44 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:


If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.

They were never going to merge. UA wasn’t giving up the name and HQ.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3922
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:47 am

usdcaguy wrote:
DL was not necessarily in a better position. They just happened to be bigger at the time. Still remember all the labor strife NW had after bankruptcy due to abrogating the AMFA contract with the mechanics. The flight attendants were unhappy as well. Rough time at the carriers, bur worth it.


The other big story is how DL was able to successfully de-unionize all of the former NW non-pilot groups, but how were pilot seniority lists merged?

Also, wasn’t UA close to merging with US before choosing CO instead?
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:01 am

Another rampant rumor around MSP was that AA was looking at NWA. Wanted us to auction the "golden share" in CO to pave the way for a Delta/Continental merger. MSP /DTW would have stayed intact (yeah, right) for connections and ORD would have focused on biz/leasure O&D.
I swear every time Steenland was spotted on a launch flight to DFW it hit the out stations within an hour lol.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:08 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:

Also, wasn’t UA close to merging with US before choosing CO instead?


The UA/US merger proposal was actually pre-911. I can write paragraphs about it but bottom line is the DOJ killed the idea. After forced divestitures all UA would have gained is a hub in the southeast, more employees & more debt.
 
mga707
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:12 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
DL was not necessarily in a better position. They just happened to be bigger at the time. Still remember all the labor strife NW had after bankruptcy due to abrogating the AMFA contract with the mechanics. The flight attendants were unhappy as well. Rough time at the carriers, bur worth it.


The other big story is how DL was able to successfully de-unionize all of the former NW non-pilot groups, but how were pilot seniority lists merged?

Also, wasn’t UA close to merging with US before choosing CO instead?


That 'near-merger' was about five years earlier, in 2000. It was a factor in AA's takeover of TW around the same time. No one at that turn-of-the-century era would have seriously predicted that HP would end up acquiring first US and then AA, keeping the latter names both times.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8715
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:21 am

Italianflyer wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

Also, wasn’t UA close to merging with US before choosing CO instead?


The UA/US merger proposal was actually pre-911. I can write paragraphs about it but bottom line is the DOJ killed the idea. After forced divestitures all UA would have gained is a hub in the southeast, more employees & more debt.


Aemoreira is correct, US and UA were in negotiations again prior to the CO merger. The DCA/IAD issue was still unresolved*, so I’m not sure how they were planning to get around that, but they were in merger negotiations.

CO was UA’s first choice, but Kelleher wanted CO to remain an independent airline. This resulted in the very close codeshare partnership between CO and UA, and CO moving from SkyTeam to Star, but Kellner was not interested in discussing much more. Tilton was desperate for a merger, so UA started discussing a merger with US. Meanwhile Kellner retired and was replaced by Smisek. Smisek saw the strategic value of a merger with UA, and sold CO about three months after becoming CEO. Had CO waited for mcy longer, they would have been stuck out in the cold. Smisek made the infamous ‘ugly girl’ comment about US Airways when announcing the merger.

*Call me crazy, but I do wonder if one option would be to de-hub IAD. PHL and CLT were both larger hubs in 2008 than 2000, and US had continued to grow its international footprint. Arguably by 2008 PHL was better positioned to carry IAD’s Trans Atlantic connecting flow and CLT any domestic connecting flow, leaving IAD to be optimised to a large O&D spoke, much like DCA for US. Maybe LHR, NRT, possibly a couple of others, but otherwise move the hub flow north and south.
 
mackdad
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:16 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:09 am

Lets not forget that Norman Mineta had the inside track. He kept mentioning NW and DL would make great merger in late 2005 and early 2006.

https://www.reutersevents.com/travel/ar ... us-airline
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10041
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:20 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The other big story is how DL was able to successfully de-unionize all of the former NW non-pilot groups


Delta didn't do it - the combined employee groups by craft did it, election by one craft after another (with election timing set by the respective NW unions).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-delt ... M620101103
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:04 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.


Amen. Miss those red tails a lot, but the arc of competition in the US called for bigger, and DL/NW seems to have done the best job of merging, in spite of having the least valuable hubs by some measures. Now that the pandemic has shuffled the deck in a fundamental way, and international traffic is so limited, it will be interesting to see how the future shapes up for the US3.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4740
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 pm

Collusion at its finest, but in the end, it was the right decision for both carriers given lax US corporate bankruptcy laws, and it was a smart move subsequently to merge. The DL/NW merger is a textbook example of how to merge two airlines.
 
n2dru
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:02 pm

spinotter wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.


Amen. Miss those red tails a lot, but the arc of competition in the US called for bigger, and DL/NW seems to have done the best job of merging, in spite of having the least valuable hubs by some measures. Now that the pandemic has shuffled the deck in a fundamental way, and international traffic is so limited, it will be interesting to see how the future shapes up for the US3.



I wouldn't call ATL a lesser valuable hub. I'm sure UA would jump at the chance to have it and AA would dump CLT for it in minute if the opportunity presented itself.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3170
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:19 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

Also, wasn’t UA close to merging with US before choosing CO instead?


The UA/US merger proposal was actually pre-911. I can write paragraphs about it but bottom line is the DOJ killed the idea. After forced divestitures all UA would have gained is a hub in the southeast, more employees & more debt.


Aemoreira is correct, US and UA were in negotiations again prior to the CO merger. The DCA/IAD issue was still unresolved*, so I’m not sure how they were planning to get around that, but they were in merger negotiations.

CO was UA’s first choice, but Kelleher wanted CO to remain an independent airline. This resulted in the very close codeshare partnership between CO and UA, and CO moving from SkyTeam to Star, but Kellner was not interested in discussing much more. Tilton was desperate for a merger, so UA started discussing a merger with US. Meanwhile Kellner retired and was replaced by Smisek. Smisek saw the strategic value of a merger with UA, and sold CO about three months after becoming CEO. Had CO waited for mcy longer, they would have been stuck out in the cold. Smisek made the infamous ‘ugly girl’ comment about US Airways when announcing the merger.

*Call me crazy, but I do wonder if one option would be to de-hub IAD. PHL and CLT were both larger hubs in 2008 than 2000, and US had continued to grow its international footprint. Arguably by 2008 PHL was better positioned to carry IAD’s Trans Atlantic connecting flow and CLT any domestic connecting flow, leaving IAD to be optimised to a large O&D spoke, much like DCA for US. Maybe LHR, NRT, possibly a couple of others, but otherwise move the hub flow north and south.


Per your request, I'll go ahead and call you crazy. One important thing about IAD is it fills a very very important O&D role. The Washington DC metro area is incredibly wealth, well educated, with a very high propensity to travel. It's not as big of a market as say NYC, but it's a very important one. If UA left, somebody else would establish a hub there. If the merger would have happened with US, I think some NE-SE flows would have been transferred to CLT, but IAD would remain. There is a lot of money there. That's my two cents.

'902

'902
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4740
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:59 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

Also, wasn’t UA close to merging with US before choosing CO instead?


The UA/US merger proposal was actually pre-911. I can write paragraphs about it but bottom line is the DOJ killed the idea. After forced divestitures all UA would have gained is a hub in the southeast, more employees & more debt.


Aemoreira is correct, US and UA were in negotiations again prior to the CO merger. The DCA/IAD issue was still unresolved*, so I’m not sure how they were planning to get around that, but they were in merger negotiations.

CO was UA’s first choice, but Kelleher wanted CO to remain an independent airline. This resulted in the very close codeshare partnership between CO and UA, and CO moving from SkyTeam to Star, but Kellner was not interested in discussing much more. Tilton was desperate for a merger, so UA started discussing a merger with US. Meanwhile Kellner retired and was replaced by Smisek. Smisek saw the strategic value of a merger with UA, and sold CO about three months after becoming CEO. Had CO waited for mcy longer, they would have been stuck out in the cold. Smisek made the infamous ‘ugly girl’ comment about US Airways when announcing the merger.

*Call me crazy, but I do wonder if one option would be to de-hub IAD. PHL and CLT were both larger hubs in 2008 than 2000, and US had continued to grow its international footprint. Arguably by 2008 PHL was better positioned to carry IAD’s Trans Atlantic connecting flow and CLT any domestic connecting flow, leaving IAD to be optimised to a large O&D spoke, much like DCA for US. Maybe LHR, NRT, possibly a couple of others, but otherwise move the hub flow north and south.


The DL/NW merger set off a chain reaction and a flurry of speculation and discussion about further consolidation involving AA and UA. Yes, CO was UA's first choice and Tilton was very much desperate for a merger. UA had plenty of holes in its network and emerged from Chapter 11 in 2006 a leaner airline facing a steep uphill climb. The one airline that no one was really hot to merge with was US.

There is absolutely no way PHL was better positioned, even in 2008, to displace IADs role as a TATL gateway. Dulles sits in one of the wealthiest counties in the country and can draw upon an even larger O&D base and charge a premium. PHL was developed as a TATL gateway because the old US route map left it without much in the way of alternatives.

Back to the merger potentials from 2008 on, there was speculation of a DL/CO merger before the DL/NW merger was announced, CO and AA, which would have been a problem from a DOJ perspective with IAH and DFW so close to each other (but it would have solved AA's NYC problem). US and AA actually made sense, even as the options whittled down to no alternatives. AA could not have survived as a stand alone carrier and US would have been swallowed up by someone else. AA and US actually executed a merger quite well from an operational standpoint, and certainly avoided much of the mess that UA/CO was. Sadly, the US corporate mindset took over and didn't do much to help AA raise its game.
 
AAIL86
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:25 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
Another rampant rumor around MSP was that AA was looking at NWA. Wanted us to auction the "golden share" in CO to pave the way for a Delta/Continental merger. MSP /DTW would have stayed intact (yeah, right) for connections and ORD would have focused on biz/leasure O&D.
I swear every time Steenland was spotted on a launch flight to DFW it hit the out stations within an hour lol.


I worked at American from 2000-2011 and I remember hearing the NWA merger rumor a hell of a lot during this time.
 
seatback
Posts: 663
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:54 pm

n2dru wrote:
spinotter wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.


Amen. Miss those red tails a lot, but the arc of competition in the US called for bigger, and DL/NW seems to have done the best job of merging, in spite of having the least valuable hubs by some measures. Now that the pandemic has shuffled the deck in a fundamental way, and international traffic is so limited, it will be interesting to see how the future shapes up for the US3.



I wouldn't call ATL a lesser valuable hub. I'm sure UA would jump at the chance to have it and AA would dump CLT for it in minute if the opportunity presented itself.


ATL is probably the best hub in the world when considering multiple factors with DFW a strong number 2. That said, I've always felt I'd rather have ORD than MSP or DTW, DEN over SLC any day. LAX and JFK are too competitive, and Delta will always be second fiddle in SEA.
 
seatback
Posts: 663
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:57 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:

The UA/US merger proposal was actually pre-911. I can write paragraphs about it but bottom line is the DOJ killed the idea. After forced divestitures all UA would have gained is a hub in the southeast, more employees & more debt.


Aemoreira is correct, US and UA were in negotiations again prior to the CO merger. The DCA/IAD issue was still unresolved*, so I’m not sure how they were planning to get around that, but they were in merger negotiations.

CO was UA’s first choice, but Kelleher wanted CO to remain an independent airline. This resulted in the very close codeshare partnership between CO and UA, and CO moving from SkyTeam to Star, but Kellner was not interested in discussing much more. Tilton was desperate for a merger, so UA started discussing a merger with US. Meanwhile Kellner retired and was replaced by Smisek. Smisek saw the strategic value of a merger with UA, and sold CO about three months after becoming CEO. Had CO waited for mcy longer, they would have been stuck out in the cold. Smisek made the infamous ‘ugly girl’ comment about US Airways when announcing the merger.

*Call me crazy, but I do wonder if one option would be to de-hub IAD. PHL and CLT were both larger hubs in 2008 than 2000, and US had continued to grow its international footprint. Arguably by 2008 PHL was better positioned to carry IAD’s Trans Atlantic connecting flow and CLT any domestic connecting flow, leaving IAD to be optimised to a large O&D spoke, much like DCA for US. Maybe LHR, NRT, possibly a couple of others, but otherwise move the hub flow north and south.


Per your request, I'll go ahead and call you crazy. One important thing about IAD is it fills a very very important O&D role. The Washington DC metro area is incredibly wealth, well educated, with a very high propensity to travel. It's not as big of a market as say NYC, but it's a very important one. If UA left, somebody else would establish a hub there. If the merger would have happened with US, I think some NE-SE flows would have been transferred to CLT, but IAD would remain. There is a lot of money there. That's my two cents.

'902

'902


This is why I often wonder if an small build up of AA international out of IAD would be worth a shot. But, maybe the solution is BA, IB, JL? Perhaps that's enough??
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3867
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:28 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:


If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.


Also both UA & DL wanted to be the merged name.
 
n9801f
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:46 pm

Bankruptcies can be agonizing. But you at least want to have something good to show for the pain. And I think NW-DL really delivered.

I subscribe to the concept that as a company faces different situations, it may need different leaders to match unique business needs of the times -- a "man-of-the-moment".

Richard Anderson arguably mastered the mergers moment and created the most successful merged airline of the big 3. There was pain for employees of both companies but the end result was a high performing and compellingly profitable company. United and American, by contrast, did not deliver record profitability after their mergers.

But now the moment has changed once again. The most recent merger wave is over. The profitability wave of the mid-2010's is past. Covid brings great uncertainty, outside the bounds of what we've known before.

In my view, United has found its man-of-the-moment in Kirby -- he responded nimbly and decisively to Covid and delivered "best"-in-class (least awful) profitability.

I ask myself whether post-merger American and Delta are best prepared for the era of Covid. American's Parker makes creative and lasting business deals -- a crucial skill in bankruptcy.
Delta's Hauenstein successfully builds new hubs during the upcycle -- EWR at CO, JFK/LAX/SEA at DL -- impressive. But the current moment doesn't seem to be about mergers or expansion.

Rather than dealmakers or growth experts, maybe what this moment demands is someone who can drive transformative change to business models.

For example Alaska successfully morphed from a small high-cost niche carrier into a much larger, profitable, hybrid/LCC with a good customer service record. Controversial near-miss examples of this transformation concept are Spirit, Frontier, and Ryanair -- all profoundly different companies before undertaking massive transformations -- resulting in profitability though with spotty marks in customer service.

The NW-DL merger commendably prepared for the late 2010's. Now we've reached a new watershed and perhaps we need a new big trick up our sleeves.
 
kiowa
Posts: 889
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:12 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.


I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:20 pm

UA444 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:


If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.

They were never going to merge. UA wasn’t giving up the name and HQ.


That's not how businesses operate. UA had a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Entering 2008, UA had shaky finances, and industry pundits were speculating a second bankruptcy. DL was seeking a "merger" partner and had garnered financial backing for it (and much of it was pulling for a DL-UA hookup). If UA had turned down DL's offer, then ended up bankrupt again, it would've been messy to say the least.

Published reports by the industry's most reliable industry journalists/pundits were clear that it was DL that walked away, primarily out of concerns that the DOJ would've sue to block it (a UA-DL hookup would've been nearly as large as an AA-CO-NW hookup, for comparison).
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4740
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:54 pm

kiowa wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.


I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.


Richard Anderson was CEO of NW until 2004 and became CEO of DL in 2007.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:23 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
kiowa wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
Miss Northwest, but this merger was definitely successful.


I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.


Richard Anderson was CEO of NW until 2004 and became CEO of DL in 2007.

When he became DL CEO, I'm sure DL and NW were already in merger discussion, at least preliminary. Whether Anderson became DL CEO due to those early talks, or the merger talks started because he became DL CEO, he was most likely THE instrumental C-suite member for this merger.
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:25 pm

US AIR almost took over Delta. It’s comical today being how strong Delta became.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4740
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:59 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
US AIR almost took over Delta. It’s comical today being how strong Delta became.


Delta was strong, and certainly in better shape and network size than US was when it tried to take over DL so aggressively. US was far and away the worst of the network carriers back then, with a reputation for indifferent service, rough labor management relations, the product of years of messy mergers that despite their cost and objective to make US a true mega carrier, they never really did. US almost went into liquidation in 2004. What saved it was HP.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:08 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
US AIR almost took over Delta. It’s comical today being how strong Delta became.


Delta was strong, and certainly in better shape and network size than US was when it tried to take over DL so aggressively. US was far and away the worst of the network carriers back then, with a reputation for indifferent service, rough labor management relations, the product of years of messy mergers that despite their cost and objective to make US a true mega carrier, they never really did. US almost went into liquidation in 2004. What saved it was HP.


Fairly slanted take, but there is truth to it. HP had decent talent. US had decent talent... the industry is not that big, and most of those people stayed in the industry. It lost its HQ, similar to how NW and CO each lost their HQs. It does not imply a lack of talent. The old US PHL, CLT, DCA (not so much LGA) properties endure to this day, still operating and making money. HP at PHX is hardly in the same league... but Doug used his "skills" to get control of both US and AA. Quite a story. Anyway, it is time for him to retire.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4740
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:34 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
US AIR almost took over Delta. It’s comical today being how strong Delta became.


Delta was strong, and certainly in better shape and network size than US was when it tried to take over DL so aggressively. US was far and away the worst of the network carriers back then, with a reputation for indifferent service, rough labor management relations, the product of years of messy mergers that despite their cost and objective to make US a true mega carrier, they never really did. US almost went into liquidation in 2004. What saved it was HP.


Fairly slanted take, but there is truth to it. HP had decent talent. US had decent talent... the industry is not that big, and most of those people stayed in the industry. It lost its HQ, similar to how NW and CO each lost their HQs. It does not imply a lack of talent. The old US PHL, CLT, DCA (not so much LGA) properties endure to this day, still operating and making money. HP at PHX is hardly in the same league... but Doug used his "skills" to get control of both US and AA. Quite a story. Anyway, it is time for him to retire.


Slanted by virtue of experience, required to fly US as it was a preferred carrier where I worked in the mid-2000s and the experience was singularly awful all around. I do agree that the HP side of the house brought talent where talent at US was ossified by the time the two combined. The CLT hub was always the crown jewel of the US side of the house, and one it inherited from Piedmont and not one it built out on its own. DCA a second hub of strategic significance. As to LGA, US never knew what to do with it, and cluttered it with turboprops and bad service despite having arguably the better terminal facility there than anyone else. Completely myopic approach to LGA, even though to be fair, US had a token presence at EWR and not much of anything significant at JFK. PHL was built at out further at the expense of PIT, which had a world class facility when the new airport terminal opened, but not enough O&D which PHL had and still has.
Last edited by ContinentalEWR on Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:36 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:



This is the main reason they both filed on the same day. Everything else was dependent on bankruptcy, and had they waited another day, the costs associated with a reorganization would have been a lot greater.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:40 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta and Northwest both filed bankruptcy the same day as the next day the bankruptcy laws were changing to less favorable laws or rules. Many of us at Northwest were also aware, including me, that they were both planning on merging and it was a convenient way to shed some debt prior to any merger. :old:


If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.



Thank you very much for bringing that important fact/idea/reality to light - with the Big 3, being as large - they would have been less free to merge with each other.

I genuinely had no idea that such existed, and to elaborate further (and once again, thank you so much for adding light and clarity here):

https://petergreenberg.com/2008/04/18/more-mergers-likely-as-continental-reclaims-golden-share-from-northwest/
"Following the United/Northwest merger announcement, Continental was able to reclaim its “golden share” from Northwest for $100 yesterday, which will enable the airline to enter into its own merger talks. A golden share is a nominal share that gives veto power over a major corporate action (ie- a merger). According to Business Travel News, since the late ’90s Northwest has held this “preferred stock” that prevented Continental from going into a merger without prior consent from Northwest. A provision in the agreement said that Continental could buy back that share for $100 if Northwest entered into its own deal.".
 
UA444
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:52 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
UA444 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

If they had planned on merging, they would've made deeper changes during the bankruptcy proceedings :).

UA was DL's preferred merger partner. The WSJ and NYT both reported in early 2008 that DL and UA were in final negotiations. But UA, AA and DL were roughly twice the size as NW, CO and US, and a DL-UA tie up would've yielded a lengthy DOJ review that would've lasted into the next administration. DL was confident the Bush Administration would not direct the DOJ to block a merger attempt, but was not confident that the future (then undecided) administration would, so it stopped talks with UA and focused on NW and CO. But NW held CO's "golden share" that gave it veto power over any merger attempt, all but making the decision for DL.

They were never going to merge. UA wasn’t giving up the name and HQ.


That's not how businesses operate. UA had a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Entering 2008, UA had shaky finances, and industry pundits were speculating a second bankruptcy. DL was seeking a "merger" partner and had garnered financial backing for it (and much of it was pulling for a DL-UA hookup). If UA had turned down DL's offer, then ended up bankrupt again, it would've been messy to say the least.

Published reports by the industry's most reliable industry journalists/pundits were clear that it was DL that walked away, primarily out of concerns that the DOJ would've sue to block it (a UA-DL hookup would've been nearly as large as an AA-CO-NW hookup, for comparison).

UA would’ve been the acquiring carrier. They were profitable in 2006 and 2007 and were never close to Chapter 11 again. The merger discussions were the fall of 2007. UA was going to be the acquiring airline, DL didn’t want to be bought so it was never going to work.

DL can shove their might with NW, but UA was never going to agree to move to ATL or dump the name.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:32 am

UA444 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
UA444 wrote:
They were never going to merge. UA wasn’t giving up the name and HQ.


That's not how businesses operate. UA had a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Entering 2008, UA had shaky finances, and industry pundits were speculating a second bankruptcy. DL was seeking a "merger" partner and had garnered financial backing for it (and much of it was pulling for a DL-UA hookup). If UA had turned down DL's offer, then ended up bankrupt again, it would've been messy to say the least.

Published reports by the industry's most reliable industry journalists/pundits were clear that it was DL that walked away, primarily out of concerns that the DOJ would've sue to block it (a UA-DL hookup would've been nearly as large as an AA-CO-NW hookup, for comparison).

UA would’ve been the acquiring carrier. They were profitable in 2006 and 2007 and were never close to Chapter 11 again. The merger discussions were the fall of 2007. UA was going to be the acquiring airline, DL didn’t want to be bought so it was never going to work.

DL can shove their might with NW, but UA was never going to agree to move to ATL or dump the name.


That's fan boy fiction. I was with UA those years. The industry was benefiting from a large decrease in available capacity, which saw airfares and load factors swell. But UA's performance was weak compared to its peers.

DL, not UA, was going to be the acquiring airline, as DL had been preparing itself for such move, garnered strong financial support and went shopping. That doesn't mean that DL wouldn't have ultimately kept its name in favor of UA. The ATL HQ, most likely - UA/CO's HQ was headed to Houston before Chicago/IL gave a deal even Texas couldn't match.

While a lot of members are emotionally vested in their favorite airline, these are for-profit corporations whose end goal is to make money for its stakeholders.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:13 am

WayexTDI wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
kiowa wrote:

I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.


Richard Anderson was CEO of NW until 2004 and became CEO of DL in 2007.

When he became DL CEO, I'm sure DL and NW were already in merger discussion, at least preliminary. Whether Anderson became DL CEO due to those early talks, or the merger talks started because he became DL CEO, he was most likely THE instrumental C-suite member for this merger.


Richard Anderson left Northwest Airlines for United Health Care so Doug Steenland could do the dirty work such as breaking the worthless mechanic's union or association AMFA and handle the bankruptcy that Northwest Airlines was going to go through. Richard, as he prefers to be called did not want his named dirtied by what was going to take place including Northwest's bankruptcy.
Richard was probably planing on becoming CEO of Delta after the dust settled at both Delta and Northwest help complete the merger of the two airlines. He helped bring along some of Northwest better leadership on completion of the merger. :old:
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4612
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:43 am

Just a reminder that this thread is about NW/DL, not other airlines.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
n9801f
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:00 pm

kiowa wrote:
I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.

Yes. Similarly, I've always thought that the "secret sauce" underpinning this merger was the complementarity between Northwest and Delta management strengths.

They seemed to fill each other's weak spots perfectly.

Northwest appeared to bring strengths in financial focus, quantitative methods, and objective analytical thinking. However it had a history of labor issues plus a perception of inferior customer service.

Delta seemed to bring labor harmony and customer focus. Though it had a reputation for changing slowly, lagging in methodologies, and an insular culture.

By and large the merger appeared to retain individual strengths and shed weaknesses.

But now the tide is shifting.

Richard Anderson is gone, and as time passes, so are many of the former Northwest managers. Current officer ranks show a heavy representation of Delta insiders.

Maybe the traits Northwest brought are fading?

The "moment" the merged company was built for -- capturing high fare business customers -- may be past for now due to Covid. It remains to be fully seen whether the current team can make the right changes fast enough to adapt fast enough to an unfamiliar environment.
 
Prost
Posts: 2674
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:36 pm

I’d be curious what % of employees of DL were around pre-merger. The employee ranks (even management) are much different now.
 
NW
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:37 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:34 pm

n9801f wrote:
kiowa wrote:
I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.

Yes. Similarly, I've always thought that the "secret sauce" underpinning this merger was the complementarity between Northwest and Delta management strengths.

They seemed to fill each other's weak spots perfectly.

Northwest appeared to bring strengths in financial focus, quantitative methods, and objective analytical thinking. However it had a history of labor issues plus a perception of inferior customer service.

Delta seemed to bring labor harmony and customer focus. Though it had a reputation for changing slowly, lagging in methodologies, and an insular culture.

By and large the merger appeared to retain individual strengths and shed weaknesses.

But now the tide is shifting.

Richard Anderson is gone, and as time passes, so are many of the former Northwest managers. Current officer ranks show a heavy representation of Delta insiders.

Maybe the traits Northwest brought are fading?

The "moment" the merged company was built for -- capturing high fare business customers -- may be past for now due to Covid. It remains to be fully seen whether the current team can make the right changes fast enough to adapt fast enough to an unfamiliar environment.


I do believe the inferior customer service was more of a perception. Northwest had fewer DOT customer complaints than Delta and the Northwest customer care team and platform was retained after the merger. Many policy and procedures were specially retained from Northwest to drive JD Power scores and be more customer friendly. Completely different cultures and this may have contributed to the perception, if anything I think both were equal for a legacy carrier.
 
UppinhereP
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:39 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:30 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Richard Anderson was CEO of NW until 2004 and became CEO of DL in 2007.

When he became DL CEO, I'm sure DL and NW were already in merger discussion, at least preliminary. Whether Anderson became DL CEO due to those early talks, or the merger talks started because he became DL CEO, he was most likely THE instrumental C-suite member for this merger.


Richard Anderson left Northwest Airlines for United Health Care so Doug Steenland could do the dirty work such as breaking the worthless mechanic's union or association AMFA and handle the bankruptcy that Northwest Airlines was going to go through. Richard, as he prefers to be called did not want his named dirtied by what was going to take place including Northwest's bankruptcy.
Richard was probably planing on becoming CEO of Delta after the dust settled at both Delta and Northwest help complete the merger of the two airlines. He helped bring along some of Northwest better leadership on completion of the merger. :old:


(Not specifically responding to this post)

NWA had a sweet deal with AMERICA WEST back in the days (late 80's early 90's) where they (NW) ran 757's and DC-10's on rotation to PHX from MSP and DTW respectively. Whether that was utilization etc., no clue.

But, coverage to the southwest of America was relied upon heavily by AM West (Code-Share) - (Couldn't NON-REV). Just like Alaska Air back then to the NW Coast. To my memory, there was much more than a sweet deal prior to CO.

Back then, NW utilized any and every tactic to utilize Partner sharing including Saab, CRJ, etc flying.

As a young buck, (I would ask my dad to bring home printed out Time Tables) >> Surely wished I kept them... As a "kid", I studied those routes!! :(

I flew a 757 as a kid from SEA to IAD back in early 1980's... (One off of course, disappeard rather quickly)

I am sure that someone here knew more about AM West and the Northwest Deal cause they were all over the Time Table back then in the 90's?

(Apologies, Mr. Rooster for Tagging) >> I always appreciate your insight and content sir.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1652
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:53 am

If only Northwest Airlines filed for bankruptcy, would Delta still purchase Northwest?
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:12 pm

n9801f wrote:
kiowa wrote:
I believe it was successful due to the leadership brought over from NWA. They were a top notch group that very well could have saved both airlines. Interesting that they kept the Delta name.

Yes. Similarly, I've always thought that the "secret sauce" underpinning this merger was the complementarity between Northwest and Delta management strengths.

They seemed to fill each other's weak spots perfectly.

Northwest appeared to bring strengths in financial focus, quantitative methods, and objective analytical thinking. However it had a history of labor issues plus a perception of inferior customer service.

Delta seemed to bring labor harmony and customer focus. Though it had a reputation for changing slowly, lagging in methodologies, and an insular culture.

By and large the merger appeared to retain individual strengths and shed weaknesses.

But now the tide is shifting.

Richard Anderson is gone, and as time passes, so are many of the former Northwest managers. Current officer ranks show a heavy representation of Delta insiders.

Maybe the traits Northwest brought are fading?

The "moment" the merged company was built for -- capturing high fare business customers -- may be past for now due to Covid. It remains to be fully seen whether the current team can make the right changes fast enough to adapt fast enough to an unfamiliar environment.


Just curious what people think about the contribution of the CEO (one person) to the overall success or failure of an enterprise like an airline. Anderson is gone from DL, Bastian is in, and the pandemic has changed the competitive landscape in fundamental ways. Kirby is (somewhat newly) in at UA, and Parker is still in at AA. Any predictions about the relative health of the US3 in light of their respective helmsmen? Different strategies in the recovery?
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1545
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:39 pm

Prost wrote:
I’d be curious what % of employees of DL were around pre-merger. The employee ranks (even management) are much different now.


I don't know the exact answer, but if memory serves me correctly, DL had the larger employee group by a considerable margin. I recall that during the merger and the work groups (in particular the FAs) were voting on unionization, the DL FAs had more overall members and therefore very unlikely to pass, which it ultimately didn't.

I flew NW alot during the late 90s and early 2000s given their relationship with CO and traveling extensively to Asia. I can say with certainty, NW was nearly always the cheapest business class to Asia (on published fares). Especially if you were willing to double connect for example, XXX-SFO-NRT-BKK/TPE/SIN/PVG/ICN, etc.

Many a time I was able to convince the check in agents in BKK to let me fly BKK-NRT-IAH and grab the CO nonstop from Tokyo. They often didn't bother to re-price the itin (which would have gone up considerably), they only ever cared about the fare class. I think CO caught on, and ultimately they stopped those work arounds. Back in the day with off tariff Asia fares!

Two things always stuck out on NW, the considerable number of upper Midwest accents from the crew (no surprise of course), but a huge contrast from CO. And the catering. NW, even in the US domestic First, always had large meals that were often very tasty.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:01 pm

Prost wrote:
I’d be curious what % of employees of DL were around pre-merger. The employee ranks (even management) are much different now.

Given the merger happened 13 years ago, and given the average job tenure in the US was 4.3 years in the Transportation Industry (source) right before COVID hit, there is a great chance most of NW/DL employee in 2008 are either retired or moved onto new jobs.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10041
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:19 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Prost wrote:
I’d be curious what % of employees of DL were around pre-merger. The employee ranks (even management) are much different now.

Given the merger happened 13 years ago, and given the average job tenure in the US was 4.3 years in the Transportation Industry (source) right before COVID hit, there is a great chance most of NW/DL employee in 2008 are either retired or moved onto new jobs.


I'm not sure the broader Transportation Industry is a great proxy for air carrier employment, but DL did say that the average (not median) tenure of the 18K people who took voluntary buyouts was over 20 years (although I'm now struggling to find a source for that). So, DL is a lot more junior that it used to be.

Pilots took the buyout in very, very small numbers, so there are surely plenty of pilots still around who were on property in 2008. DL says the avg age of the pilot group is fifty.

https://propel.delta.com/content/propel ... delta.html

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos