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WayexTDI
Posts: 2458
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Prost wrote:
I’d be curious what % of employees of DL were around pre-merger. The employee ranks (even management) are much different now.

Given the merger happened 13 years ago, and given the average job tenure in the US was 4.3 years in the Transportation Industry (source) right before COVID hit, there is a great chance most of NW/DL employee in 2008 are either retired or moved onto new jobs.


I'm not sure the broader Transportation Industry is a great proxy for air carrier employment, but DL did say that the average (not median) tenure of the 18K people who took voluntary buyouts was over 20 years (although I'm now struggling to find a source for that). So, DL is a lot more junior that it used to be.

Pilots took the buyout in very, very small numbers, so there are surely plenty of pilots still around who were on property in 2008. DL says the avg age of the pilot group is fifty.

https://propel.delta.com/content/propel ... delta.html

Average age of pilot group being 50 has no bearing on how long they've been with DL.
Also, the people who took voluntary buyouts had over 20 years on average with DL; meaning they started to "get up there in age", and their buyouts were most likely quite substantial as well: someone with 30 years at DL got much more money than someone who had 2 or 3 years. That's not a good way to measure.

Overall, in the US, on average, people stay 4 to 5 years with their employer; DL might be higher than that, but the number of people with over 13 years of seniority are not in great numbers.
 
n9801f
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:25 pm

spinotter wrote:
Just curious what people think about the contribution of the CEO (one person) to the overall success or failure of an enterprise like an airline. Anderson is gone from DL, Bastian is in, and the pandemic has changed the competitive landscape in fundamental ways. Kirby is (somewhat newly) in at UA, and Parker is still in at AA. Any predictions about the relative health of the US3 in light of their respective helmsmen? Different strategies in the recovery?

My view is the CEO can be make or break.

Richard Anderson propelled NW/DL to new records of profitability.

But Harding Lawrence' erratic growth plan quickly sank Braniff.

Differing US3 pandemic responses do seem to reflect CEO personalities. Kirby responding fastest, cautious for now with capacity. Parker taking a risk with bullish summer capacity. Delta shrinking but as short-term as possible, poised to fill voids created by competitor shrinkage.

'm personally expecting a longer downturn, especially in international. The Boeing Forecast dims expectations for S22. That could be hard on debt-laden American. But United showed it can hunker down. Perhaps Delta will need to lengthen its time horizon for shrinking to remove more cost, for instance retire old aircraft faster and induct new ones more slowly.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Average age of pilot group being 50 has no bearing on how long they've been with DL.
Also, the people who took voluntary buyouts had over 20 years on average with DL; meaning they started to "get up there in age", and their buyouts were most likely quite substantial as well: someone with 30 years at DL got much more money than someone who had 2 or 3 years. That's not a good way to measure.

Overall, in the US, on average, people stay 4 to 5 years with their employer; DL might be higher than that, but the number of people with over 13 years of seniority are not in great numbers.


Employees whose compensation is largely based upon seniority generally make their career with that employer -- especially employees who received union or union-like compensation packages. Thus, I'd expect that the majority of people retiring from DL have decades of service.

That said... both DL and NW did minimal hiring following 9-11 through the merger + they enacted multiple rounds of temporary (some of whom naturally wouldn't return) & permanent layoffs throughout the Companies. Since the lion's share of pre-merger employees would have at least 20+ years of service by now, I think it'd be fair to rationalize that the majority have since retired.

But both DL & NW massively grew in the 1990s, and at least NW did regularly hire bilingual FA in the 2000s, so I'm also certain there's plenty of PM employees around, even if most are gone.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:35 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Average age of pilot group being 50 has no bearing on how long they've been with DL.
Also, the people who took voluntary buyouts had over 20 years on average with DL; meaning they started to "get up there in age", and their buyouts were most likely quite substantial as well: someone with 30 years at DL got much more money than someone who had 2 or 3 years. That's not a good way to measure.

Overall, in the US, on average, people stay 4 to 5 years with their employer; DL might be higher than that, but the number of people with over 13 years of seniority are not in great numbers.


Employees whose compensation is largely based upon seniority generally make their career with that employer -- especially employees who received union or union-like compensation packages. Thus, I'd expect that the majority of people retiring from DL have decades of service.

That said... both DL and NW did minimal hiring following 9-11 through the merger + they enacted multiple rounds of temporary (some of whom naturally wouldn't return) & permanent layoffs throughout the Companies. Since the lion's share of pre-merger employees would have at least 20+ years of service by now, I think it'd be fair to rationalize that the majority have since retired.

But both DL & NW massively grew in the 1990s, and at least NW did regularly hire bilingual FA in the 2000s, so I'm also certain there's plenty of PM employees around, even if most are gone.

seriously most pilots stay with their mainline hire from like 30 to retirement
 
AirlineBob
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:53 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:50 am

From my limited perspective, United was a beneficiary of the NW/DL merger in a unique way. For the brief time that I walked the halls of United HQ in Willis Tower, it seemed like you couldn't go ten feet without bumping into an ex-Northwest Airlines employee.

My understanding was, at the time of the merger, DL made all kinds of promises about keeping the NW jobs in Minneapolis. Then, once the deal was done, they began the cuts. I heard there were lots of offers of early retirement, as well as offers to move to Atlanta if you wanted to keep your job.

At the same time, United was building their HQ staff in downtown Chicago. The NW folks who took early retirement kept their flight benefits with Delta, and as commutes go, flying ORD to MSP on the weekends wasn't a bad way to go. Had to get a crashpad in Chicago to use during the week, but better than moving to Atlanta.

Of course, many of the NW folks you talked to would wax poetically about how great Northwest was, and that it was the best airline of all time, and miles ahead of Delta and United. Rose colored glasses for sure, but they did all seem very capable, and brought a hell of a lot of talent that was sorely needed at UA at the time.

Some of those folks have since moved on, although many are still there. I think UA wouldn't be as good a carrier as they are now without the help of the ex-NW folks.
 
n9801f
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:11 pm

AirlineBob wrote:
My understanding was, at the time of the merger, DL made all kinds of promises about keeping the NW jobs in Minneapolis. Then, once the deal was done, they began the cuts. I heard there were lots of offers of early retirement, as well as offers to move to Atlanta if you wanted to keep your job.

I second your view that Northwest had many talented managers, a strong business-focused culture, and used rigorous methods.

I think the attrition you describe reverses a key positive outcome of the merger: infusion of Northwest business sense into the merged Delta.

That attrition seems symbolically complete following the departure of Richard Anderson.
 
twicearound
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:28 am

WayexTDI wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Given the merger happened 13 years ago, and given the average job tenure in the US was 4.3 years in the Transportation Industry (source) right before COVID hit, there is a great chance most of NW/DL employee in 2008 are either retired or moved onto new jobs.


I'm not sure the broader Transportation Industry is a great proxy for air carrier employment, but DL did say that the average (not median) tenure of the 18K people who took voluntary buyouts was over 20 years (although I'm now struggling to find a source for that). So, DL is a lot more junior that it used to be.

Pilots took the buyout in very, very small numbers, so there are surely plenty of pilots still around who were on property in 2008. DL says the avg age of the pilot group is fifty.

https://propel.delta.com/content/propel ... delta.html

Average age of pilot group being 50 has no bearing on how long they've been with DL.
Also, the people who took voluntary buyouts had over 20 years on average with DL; meaning they started to "get up there in age", and their buyouts were most likely quite substantial as well: someone with 30 years at DL got much more money than someone who had 2 or 3 years. That's not a good way to measure.

Overall, in the US, on average, people stay 4 to 5 years with their employer; DL might be higher than that, but the number of people with over 13 years of seniority are not in great numbers.

You’re extremely incorrect there. More than half of the Pilot and FA groups have more than 13 years of seniority. Legacy carriers are still very senior, even on the ground side. DL still has many Gate Agents with 25 plus years, and over 5000 FAs have 30 plus years.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:52 pm

twicearound wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I'm not sure the broader Transportation Industry is a great proxy for air carrier employment, but DL did say that the average (not median) tenure of the 18K people who took voluntary buyouts was over 20 years (although I'm now struggling to find a source for that). So, DL is a lot more junior that it used to be.

Pilots took the buyout in very, very small numbers, so there are surely plenty of pilots still around who were on property in 2008. DL says the avg age of the pilot group is fifty.

https://propel.delta.com/content/propel ... delta.html

Average age of pilot group being 50 has no bearing on how long they've been with DL.
Also, the people who took voluntary buyouts had over 20 years on average with DL; meaning they started to "get up there in age", and their buyouts were most likely quite substantial as well: someone with 30 years at DL got much more money than someone who had 2 or 3 years. That's not a good way to measure.

Overall, in the US, on average, people stay 4 to 5 years with their employer; DL might be higher than that, but the number of people with over 13 years of seniority are not in great numbers.

You’re extremely incorrect there. More than half of the Pilot and FA groups have more than 13 years of seniority. Legacy carriers are still very senior, even on the ground side. DL still has many Gate Agents with 25 plus years, and over 5000 FAs have 30 plus years.

I retired from Northwest Airlines after 37 years as a Crew Chief at the age of 62. I would have stayed another three years to 65 plus except for the impeding lockout of the mechanics and the wages of anyone who stayed would have seen their salary cut in half. IT was not worth it. There were about one hundred mechanics on the seniority list ahead of me with several that had fifty years with Northwest. One was over 80 years old.
As an added note United Airlines about three years ago had a 92 year old Crew Chief still working. They named a 777 after him. United did restrict him from climbing on the aircraft. I do not know if he is still with United. :old:
 
ck8msp
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:08 am

Re: 16 years ago: NW and DL both file CH11 bankruptcy at nearly the same time

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:49 pm

I was on a DL 767 to STR and they actually made an inflight announcement about the bankruptcy not doubt to assure us that ch11 did not mean a shutdown and that we would have a return ticket home. I also remember being on the last (I think) MSP-EWR flight before they fully integrated to DL. There was a delay and the pilot admitted they were trying to deal with new company policies in calculating weight and balance and fuel load.

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