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OzarkD9S
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PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:33 pm

So I ran across this article on Simple Minds, err....

https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-boeing-737-fleet/

My memory of PA's 732 ops being that they operated primarily in Europe, feeding the LHR and FRA long-hauls. Anyone on here know whether they made it to N. America, out of MIA maybe?

Checking this source, it appears they are all Euro-based:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785p94.html

Any insight is appreciated, OzarkD9S
 
jetskipper
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:52 pm

PanAm flew to Corpus Christi?! That had to be the smallest domestic market that mainline PanAm served.
 
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lindy field
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:06 pm

There definitely were some based in Miami in the second half of the 1980s, as well as a small number at LAX (2?) flying to SFO and SAN a few times daily. This lasted only a short period of time. The 737s on the SAN run were replaced by the Dash 7.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:15 pm

Interesting that only one of 16 appeared to make it to the cessation of ops in 12/1991. I had recalled that there were 727s flying the FRA-intra-Europe routes when DL took over that operation.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/P ... ld-Airways
 
dcajet
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:37 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
So I ran across this article on Simple Minds, err....

https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-boeing-737-fleet/

My memory of PA's 732 ops being that they operated primarily in Europe, feeding the LHR and FRA long-hauls. Anyone on here know whether they made it to N. America, out of MIA maybe?

Checking this source, it appears they are all Euro-based:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785p94.html

Any insight is appreciated, OzarkD9S


I remember seeing them frequently at LAX in the mid to late 80s.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:22 am

Several flew for PA still with Air Florida interiors
 
LatinPlane
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:24 am

jetskipper wrote:
PanAm flew to Corpus Christi?! That had to be the smallest domestic market that mainline PanAm served.


Some of Pan Am's best corporate clients were those of the oil business. The town was booming in the late '70s and early' 80s due it's oil refineries hence that most of its tall buildings in the downtown area are from that era. Here's a Pan Am 727 in Dallas in 1987. They served Austin, San Antonio, and Corpus as tags to its Dallas and Houston flights from New York.

 
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UPlog
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:25 am

Yes they made it to the US out of different bases including JFK, MIA, and LAX(runs to SAN and SFO).
Had colleague who flew on the fleet out of JFK briefly including TDY assignment to LAX. I also recall flying on them to the Bahamas from MIA.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:23 am

UPlog wrote:

Yes they made it to the US out of different bases including JFK, MIA, and LAX(runs to SAN and SFO).
Had colleague who flew on the fleet out of JFK briefly including TDY assignment to LAX. I also recall flying on them to the Bahamas from MIA.


With such a small fleet, did all the 737's come Stateside or did some remain in Europe as well. Seems maintaining a pilot pool for a dozen or less planes on two continents would have been a nightmare for staffing/scheduling. Did PA have dual qualified pilots for the 727/737? Was that even possible at the time? Even if they were all pulled to the US having ops at LAX/MIA and JFK seems highly inefficient to me, but PA at the time was in a continual state of decline so who knows the rationale for this operational scheme.
 
JFKCMILAXFLL
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:12 pm

I flew on a PA 732 on 6/26/87, JFK-CLE. I think the bird was ex-LH.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:45 pm

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Pan Am's Internal German Service (IGS), based in Berlin. They also operated 737-200s from 1982.

https://www.panam.org/people-places/610 ... an-service

http://www.panam-world.org/the-history- ... -services/
 
oldannyboy
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:27 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
So I ran across this article on Simple Minds, err....

https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-boeing-737-fleet/

My memory of PA's 732 ops being that they operated primarily in Europe, feeding the LHR and FRA long-hauls. Anyone on here know whether they made it to N. America, out of MIA maybe?

Checking this source, it appears they are all Euro-based:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785p94.html

Any insight is appreciated, OzarkD9S


This is what I remember... I believe it was a bit of 'motley crew' of second-hand 732s of different airlines, with different interiors and engines.
I think they initially flew in Europe, but then moved to the US..?
At the end of the PA era, most IGS flights as well as intra-Europe feeder flights were mostly ATRs, 727s and A310s....
 
oldannyboy
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:37 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
So I ran across this article on Simple Minds, err....

https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-boeing-737-fleet/

My memory of PA's 732 ops being that they operated primarily in Europe, feeding the LHR and FRA long-hauls. Anyone on here know whether they made it to N. America, out of MIA maybe?

Checking this source, it appears they are all Euro-based:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785p94.html

Any insight is appreciated, OzarkD9S


This is what I remember... I believe it was a bit of 'motley crew' of second-hand 732s of different airlines, with different interiors and engines.
I think they initially flew in Europe, but then moved to the US..?
At the end of the PA era, most IGS flights as well as intra-Europe feeder flights were mostly ATRs, 727s and A310s....
 
toobz
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:04 pm

I recall flying the 732 and 727 out of HEL when I was younger.
 
Flaps
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:44 pm

I have photos of them at PIT. I know that they operated them JFK-PIT and other JFK- Northeast/Midwest markets.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:33 pm

Took a look at some timetables I have access to for 737 ops.

September 1985
FRA-ATH
FRA-WAW
FRA-ZAG-BEG
FRA-ZAG-DBV

LHR-AMS-HAM
LHR-AMS
LHR-BRU
LHR-FRA
LHR-MUC

MUC-BUD-OTP
MUC-VIE

TXL-FRA
TXL-HAM
TXL-MUC
TXL-NUE
TXL-NUE-BRU
TXL-STR

ZRH-GVA-IST
ZRH-STR-TXL
ZRH-TXL

November 1987
MIA-ATL
MIA-DCA
MIA-FPO
MIA-HOU
MIA-MCO
MIA-TPA

JFK-ATL
JFK-DTW
JFK-MSP
JFK-PIT-BNA
JFK-RDU-CLT
JFK-TPA

LAX-SAN
LAX-SFO

September 1989
MIA-ATL
MIA-ATL-IAD
MIA-FPO
MIA-IAH
MIA-MCO
MIA-MSY
MIA-NAS
MIA-TPA

LAX-SAN
LAX-SFO
 
cs03
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:51 pm

From memory, I recall that Ed Acker came to Pan Am from Air Florida and he leased some 732s from Air Florida at a very high lease rate.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 580
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:51 pm

jetskipper wrote:
PanAm flew to Corpus Christi?! That had to be the smallest domestic market that mainline PanAm served.


They served Mobile for about a year after the National merger. That would be a contender also.
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 575
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:53 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
UPlog wrote:

Yes they made it to the US out of different bases including JFK, MIA, and LAX(runs to SAN and SFO).
Had colleague who flew on the fleet out of JFK briefly including TDY assignment to LAX. I also recall flying on them to the Bahamas from MIA.


With such a small fleet, did all the 737's come Stateside or did some remain in Europe as well. Seems maintaining a pilot pool for a dozen or less planes on two continents would have been a nightmare for staffing/scheduling. Did PA have dual qualified pilots for the 727/737? Was that even possible at the time? Even if they were all pulled to the US having ops at LAX/MIA and JFK seems highly inefficient to me, but PA at the time was in a continual state of decline so who knows the rationale for this operational scheme.


Which is why I think we saw DL and UA both draw down their FRA and LHR connecting points in pretty quick order in favor of more nonstop Europe services from their US hubs. One can only imagine how inefficient maintaining those small sub-fleets and narrow body domiciles must have been when they were flying once or twice a day mostly all at the same departure and arrival times
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 580
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:56 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
jetskipper wrote:
PanAm flew to Corpus Christi?! That had to be the smallest domestic market that mainline PanAm served.


Some of Pan Am's best corporate clients were those of the oil business. The town was booming in the late '70s and early' 80s due it's oil refineries hence that most of its tall buildings in the downtown area are from that era. Here's a Pan Am 727 in Dallas in 1987. They served Austin, San Antonio, and Corpus as tags to its Dallas and Houston flights from New York.



Also very intentionally PA service Dhahran originated in Houston. It was an oil route.
 
beachroad
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:02 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
UPlog wrote:

Yes they made it to the US out of different bases including JFK, MIA, and LAX(runs to SAN and SFO).
Had colleague who flew on the fleet out of JFK briefly including TDY assignment to LAX. I also recall flying on them to the Bahamas from MIA.


With such a small fleet, did all the 737's come Stateside or did some remain in Europe as well. Seems maintaining a pilot pool for a dozen or less planes on two continents would have been a nightmare for staffing/scheduling. Did PA have dual qualified pilots for the 727/737? Was that even possible at the time? Even if they were all pulled to the US having ops at LAX/MIA and JFK seems highly inefficient to me, but PA at the time was in a continual state of decline so who knows the rationale for this operational scheme.


Which is why I think we saw DL and UA both draw down their FRA and LHR connecting points in pretty quick order in favor of more nonstop Europe services from their US hubs. One can only imagine how inefficient maintaining those small sub-fleets and narrow body domiciles must have been when they were flying once or twice a day mostly all at the same departure and arrival times


The big difference was Pan Am's domestic German network, which they'd sold to Lufthansa before UA and DL took over. Because PA had high frequency point to point business routes within Europe, not just transatlantic, having a few daily feeder flights on the side wasn't too inefficient. With the German domestic flights gone, only the daily rotations were left.

All of the 737s started in Europe, alongside A310-200s. The Airbuses were then reconfigured for transatlantic flying with their 737s heading for the US. both replaced with 727s.
 
Cody
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:24 pm

The ones with AF tail numbers had full blue and green Air Florida interiors the entire time they were with Pan Am. They even had Air Florida wall paper on the bulkheads and lavatories which consisted of small blue and green af logos all over.
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:51 pm

As mentioned in a post earlier, I did see one at JFK, just once, and it was quite a pleasant surprise. I'd have to guess early 80s.
 
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OzarkD9S
Topic Author
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:05 pm

LAXintl wrote:

Took a look at some timetables I have access to for 737 ops.

September 1985
FRA-ATH
FRA-WAW
FRA-ZAG-BEG
FRA-ZAG-DBV

LHR-AMS-HAM
LHR-AMS
LHR-BRU
LHR-FRA
LHR-MUC

MUC-BUD-OTP
MUC-VIE

TXL-FRA
TXL-HAM
TXL-MUC
TXL-NUE
TXL-NUE-BRU
TXL-STR

ZRH-GVA-IST
ZRH-STR-TXL
ZRH-TXL

November 1987
MIA-ATL
MIA-DCA
MIA-FPO
MIA-HOU
MIA-MCO
MIA-TPA

JFK-ATL
JFK-DTW
JFK-MSP
JFK-PIT-BNA
JFK-RDU-CLT
JFK-TPA

LAX-SAN
LAX-SFO

September 1989
MIA-ATL
MIA-ATL-IAD
MIA-FPO
MIA-IAH
MIA-MCO
MIA-MSY
MIA-NAS
MIA-TPA

LAX-SAN
LAX-SFO


Very interesting. So the East Coast birds could have bridged MIA and JFK via TPA and ATL, but the LAX ops were a standalone operation.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:40 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
So I ran across this article on Simple Minds, err....

https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-boeing-737-fleet/

My memory of PA's 732 ops being that they operated primarily in Europe, feeding the LHR and FRA long-hauls. Anyone on here know whether they made it to N. America, out of MIA maybe?

Checking this source, it appears they are all Euro-based:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785p94.html

Any insight is appreciated, OzarkD9S



They operated twice daily MIA IAH/DFW in about 1989-1990 with the 737-200's.
 
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OzarkD9S
Topic Author
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Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:42 pm

superjeff wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

So I ran across this article on Simple Minds, err....

https://simpleflying.com/pan-am-boeing-737-fleet/

My memory of PA's 732 ops being that they operated primarily in Europe, feeding the LHR and FRA long-hauls. Anyone on here know whether they made it to N. America, out of MIA maybe?

Checking this source, it appears they are all Euro-based:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA102785p94.html

Any insight is appreciated, OzarkD9S



They operated twice daily MIA IAH/DFW in about 1989-1990 with the 737-200's.


An interesting tag, long after the IAH mini-hub was closed. I thought PA had moved to HOU by then but then the memory is getting fuzzy. Thanks for that!
 
73G
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:25 pm

Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:50 pm

They had to fly the long way over land from MIA to DFW/IAH because their 737's lacked over water capability to fly directly across the Gulf. The MIA-CLT-RDU continued on to JFK. JFK-DTW continued on to IND. They also ran JFK-CLE-CVG at one point.
 
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northstardc4m
Posts: 3461
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:29 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
LAXintl wrote:

Took a look at some timetables I have access to for 737 ops.

September 1985
FRA-ATH
FRA-WAW
FRA-ZAG-BEG
FRA-ZAG-DBV

LHR-AMS-HAM
LHR-AMS
LHR-BRU
LHR-FRA
LHR-MUC

MUC-BUD-OTP
MUC-VIE

TXL-FRA
TXL-HAM
TXL-MUC
TXL-NUE
TXL-NUE-BRU
TXL-STR

ZRH-GVA-IST
ZRH-STR-TXL
ZRH-TXL

November 1987
MIA-ATL
MIA-DCA
MIA-FPO
MIA-HOU
MIA-MCO
MIA-TPA

JFK-ATL
JFK-DTW
JFK-MSP
JFK-PIT-BNA
JFK-RDU-CLT
JFK-TPA

LAX-SAN
LAX-SFO

September 1989
MIA-ATL
MIA-ATL-IAD
MIA-FPO
MIA-IAH
MIA-MCO
MIA-MSY
MIA-NAS
MIA-TPA

LAX-SAN
LAX-SFO


Very interesting. So the East Coast birds could have bridged MIA and JFK via TPA and ATL, but the LAX ops were a standalone operation.
I might be wrong but I think the LAX ops were done by Pacific Express? As PA Express?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25550
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:00 am

northstardc4m wrote:
I might be wrong but I think the LAX ops were done by Pacific Express? As PA Express?


Pacific Express died in 1984.

LAX ops were PA own 737s.



PA Express was also at LAX for couple years using Dash-7s.

 
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OA412
Moderator
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: PA (1) 737-200 Ops

Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:02 pm

The 732s were definitely still in Europe in 1986. Flew FRA-ATH, ATH-FRA on PA 732s that summer. The 310-200s were also in Europe that summer. I flew LHR-FRA on one in June 1986.

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