CFWAD wrote:
Umm.. Yes, pilots, infrastructure and aircraft have turned to dust almost immediately. Swissair, Sabena lost a lot of aircraft, pilots and support staff prior to "restarting" under Crossair and eventually under Lufthansa Group - support by the EU. Ansett Australia?
A tad disingenuous. Zurich airport didn’t disappear. Swiss International Airlines did not have to train their pilots from scratch. Swissairs Airbus fleet didn’t dissolve into dust.
Some jobs were lost, sure. Many of them - probably most - came back under a different brandname in an airline that is more sustainable than its predecessor. Proof in the pudding: when did Swissair go under, and when was Swiss International Airlines created?
What’s the argument here? That we should continue with a dysfunctional aviation market so that a small minority of airline workers jobs aren’t threatened? If yes, then why don’t we do that in all sectors of the economy? (Hint: because it’s a questionable way to go about things).
CFWAD wrote: And under EU laws - it is incredibly hard to "nationalize" your airline anymore. Hence Alitalita saying goodbye the other day. And seeing Malev go away, etc.
It absolutely should be difficult. Nationalization should be a last resort when there are no other alternatives. There’s a difference between the Italian government not being able to do something, and choosing not to do something.
Either way, it’s moot. EU laws don’t apply in Canada. And nationalized airlines can operate to the EU, so a state-owned AC or WS wouldn’t be constrained.
CFWAD wrote:
I do believe he has an incredible amount of experience and given his almost 16 years experience with Air New Zealand and the Star Alliance - he could have a solid place at Air Canada. But he has chosen to risk his career attempting a failed narrative in Canada. I wish and hope he would take his experience to AC and run Rouge.. Or better yet, take over the airline side of Sunwing Corp.
Indeed. Pretty much explains why we need more foreigners who’ve lived/worked in other parts of the world and know a dysfunctional system when they see one.
Why go and shake up a dysfunctional system when you can get rewarded handsomely for churning out marginally different flavours of overpriced mediocrity? Fair question.
Perhaps it’s a personal thing - perhaps after working at NZ - a top quality airline from J through Y - he prefers not to be associated with the rock bottom value for money offerings that characterize the Canadian market. After all, he’s quite literally set out to offer a product that is very similar to AC/WS domestic narrowbody Y - and significantly cheaper too.
Maybe he’s sufficiently wealthy - thanks to his prior success - to not worry about personal risks. In which case we need more, not less, like him.
CFWAD wrote:
You cannot argue growing pains after over 4 years of this. Anyone agreeing to enter this airline and marketplace should know that they are accepting. Flair ceased to be a charter airline long ago. And stop spewing this "Canadian experience/foreigner" thing. It's odd and not at all where I am going with this.
Disingenuous again. This new management lot only took over a year ago; look at what they’ve achieved in that year. They should be judged on that, not what the previous management team (also associated with Canadian Jetlines) wasted its time doing.
Re: Canadian experience/foreigner, you kept bringing it up (and do again below, with the JetBlue guy). I won’t highlight all your quotes, but I’m happy to agree that it’s nonsense.
CFWAD wrote:
4 and a bit years ago, Flair was still a charter airline. It was private, run by a few people who knew what they were doing (for the most part; a few mistakes were made along the way). Not exactly sure what giving a $140 million loan with insane interest and some brand new, cheap-leased 737's to proven foreign talent is going to bring. It has proven pretty lame so far.
What were they doing? I believe the answer rhymes with SFA.
I suppose if one believes that nobody should challenge the AC/WS duopoly (and PD/Deluce has copped a lot of abuse on that front), then having a tiny charter airline on the periphery is ideal.
F8’s contribution to the Canadian aviation market in 2017/18/19 was so negligible, it need not have existed at all. Contrast that to now, after one year under folk with “international”. Since it needs to be spelled out: They’re carrying not insubstantial numbers of Canadians to where they want to go - a far cry from 2019, or 2018 etc.
This whole thing may yet fail because of how F8 did business before the new lot arrived, but even if F8 turns out to be a flash in the pan, it’s done more to galvanize Jetlines (created in 2014, 0 airplanes) than anything in the preceding 6 years - as you put it, the poster child of “pretty lame”. If all it does is contribute to the emergence of Jetlines and others, it’s already done a damn sight more for Canadians than whatever F8’s old management was doing in 2017/18/19.
CFWAD wrote:
He is not JetBlue Exec - he was a manager of it's loyalty program - for less than 2 years. Competitive market at JFK? Up until last year, 33% of the US3 dropped out of the airport (UAL). This guy has no clue how to place Boeing's in Canada.
The talented guy from NZ thinks JetBlue guy has got what it takes. Guess he’s a clueless Johnny Foreigner after all.
JetBlue managed to withstand and defeat the US3 at one airport in a three airport city? Yep, definitely smacks of limited competition. (Hint: look at the airfares; you’ll find it hiding there).
CFWAD wrote: There is actually an incredibly simple formula to make this work in Canada. It requires patience. Capital. Good People. And tech.
The tech exists and has been deployed. T7 is investing heavily in ULCC tech. Good people? These guys come with a lot of different experience and not a few wins. Patience? The Jetlines guy thinks now is as good a time as any to launch a ULCC. Capital…that’s the big question mark. Loosen foreign ownership rules and see what happens.
Now is one of those times. Right time. Good People. But they screwed themselves with the 18% loan and did not invest in the 2021 tech. WS succeeded during certain timings - and pounced at the right opportunity. Transat, Sunwing, Porter, Canadian North. First Air, Air North, Jazz Aviation have all done this and are all still around. Time will prove.
TM (and maybe Jimbo?) are not, not active. There is going to be a time and place for at least 1 proper ULCC in Canada. My bet is on the office that's been sitting at the South end of YYC.
Begs the question: if the formula is so simple, why hasn’t all that Canadian talent churned out for decades at AC and WS done anything about it? Too risky averse? Too scared to take on a challenge? Not talented enough (like whoever was running Flair/Jetlines before the current crop showed up?)
I think the fact that these guys have actually got F8 up and running inside a year is a bit of an indictment of the likes of Jetlines. Seven years, zero aircraft. Hallmarks of some stellar talent, eh? Meanwhile F8 is “pretty lame” lol.