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Revelation
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:56 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
All of this is just hearsay and speculation.

It is a fact that the ADS-B data was available in public forums two hours after the 2nd crash. I think it's safe speculation that someone within Boeing saw it soon thereafter.

Pythagoras wrote:
Muilenburg certainly knew much more than what he decided to tell Trump.

You seem to be suggesting he lied to Trump when he said he knew the plane was safe, because if he 'knew more', it was that it was highly likely that MCAS had activated multiple times in the 2nd crash. As the NYT article said his staff was working on a response the day before he spoke to Trump. If they didn't have that info then they really were not trying to understand what actually happened, since even us a.netters understood by then that the ET crash had huge similarities to the JT crash.

Pythagoras wrote:
Remember this behavior is all highly unusual. Why is a CEO calling the President of the United States during an on-going accident investigation when the FAA is the responsible government entity to be communicating with and to be making any public statement?

Remember as well that both Boeing and the FAA are bureaucratic organizations and decisions must be reviewed and vetted by appropriate layers of management. It isn't quite as easy as you believe for the engineering team reach a conclusion and then have the organizations instantaneously act upon that recommendation.

Like it or not, that's how the previously elected chief executive operated. Boeing is a rich corporation, their CEO's pay alone was $millions a year, it's his job and his corporation's job to be able to operate in the environment as it exists, not how it used to exist in 1969.

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
The last two paragraphs though capture how this was so similar to what happened 40 years earlier.

Didn't read since it's behind a paywall...

Maybe I should adjust my reference above to 1979?

To be honest it does feel like Boeing was acting the way it would have acted 40 or 50 years earlier. Just put out the word that the airplane is safe without doing the work to check if the airplane doesn't have a huge flaw like the ADS-B data should have suggested to Boeing Engineering. Assume the public accepts the occasional catastrophic plane crash as a price to pay for air travel like they might have in 1969 or 1979. Don't be proactive and ground the plane yourself even though you have two different crashes with similar circumstances, let the FAA be the heavy and make you do it, far less law suits that way. Keep making the story about how FAA wasn't strict enough even though you continuously lobby the FAA to be more lenient and in the end it's a Boeing plane that crashes regardless of FAA regulations.

I also made the argument that there are risks in air travel shortly after both crashes, and argued to wait till more facts were in, but of course Boeing had facts pretty quickly and seems to have spent their time trying to figure out how to deal with the bad news, and in a way, still are.

My reaction may have been tempered because I have seen risks involving air travel. People working in the same facility as me were on SR-111 in 1998. People in my church knew some pilots and crew that were lost on 9/11. So there is risk every time you get in an airplane, just like when you get into a car.

The difference here is that the 2nd MCAS crash was avoidable, just like the 2nd DC-10 crash was. In both cases it's apparent that a big corporation wasn't willing to accept it could and did make mistakes. Its default posture was to be in denial till it could no longer could plausibly remain in denial, and even then try to limit the damage to one or two individuals making human errors rather than admitting its system did not detect designs with serious problems.
 
kalvado
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:59 pm

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:

All of this is just hearsay and speculation. Muilenburg certainly knew much more than what he decided to tell Trump. Remember this behavior is all highly unusual. Why is a CEO calling the President of the United States during an on-going accident investigation when the FAA is the responsible government entity to be communicating with and to be making any public statement?

Remember as well that both Boeing and the FAA are bureaucratic organizations and decisions must be reviewed and vetted by appropriate layers of management. It isn't quite as easy as you believe for the engineering team reach a conclusion and then have the organizations instantaneously act upon that recommendation.

This is all hearsay and speculation.
Hard facts: bureaucratic agencies all over the world came to certain conclusions, apparently seeing enough evidence and data. Meanwhile someone in position to know better than anyone else in the world claims safety, only to be proven disasterously out of touch with reality.


This was an excellent article by The Air Current. https://theaircurrent.com/historical-context/searching-for-40-year-old-lessons-for-boeing-in-the-grounding-of-the-dc-10/

The last two paragraphs though capture how this was so similar to what happened 40 years earlier.

WHen you said "40 years ago", I assumed you mean Challenger and NASA's "silent safety program".
Which only means that human nature didn't change over 40 years. The main difference for me is that a lot of people seemingly related to the company don't appreciate existence of the problem, hence little chance for correction.
And while I am sure Boeing will be fine, I am saying that with the same kind of optimism you can hear bedside of someone with advanced cancer.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:31 pm

kalvado wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
kalvado wrote:
This is all hearsay and speculation.
Hard facts: bureaucratic agencies all over the world came to certain conclusions, apparently seeing enough evidence and data. Meanwhile someone in position to know better than anyone else in the world claims safety, only to be proven disasterously out of touch with reality.

This was an excellent article by The Air Current. https://theaircurrent.com/historical-context/searching-for-40-year-old-lessons-for-boeing-in-the-grounding-of-the-dc-10/

The last two paragraphs though capture how this was so similar to what happened 40 years earlier.

WHen you said "40 years ago", I assumed you mean Challenger and NASA's "silent safety program".
Which only means that human nature didn't change over 40 years. The main difference for me is that a lot of people seemingly related to the company don't appreciate existence of the problem, hence little chance for correction.
And while I am sure Boeing will be fine, I am saying that with the same kind of optimism you can hear bedside of someone with advanced cancer.

2019-40=1979, which is when the 2nd DC-10 crash and its grounding happened.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
All of this is just hearsay and speculation.

It is a fact that the ADS-B data was available in public forums two hours after the 2nd crash. I think it's safe speculation that someone within Boeing saw it soon thereafter.

Pythagoras wrote:
Muilenburg certainly knew much more than what he decided to tell Trump.

You seem to be suggesting he lied to Trump when he said he knew the plane was safe, because if he 'knew more', it was that it was highly likely that MCAS had activated multiple times in the 2nd crash. As the NYT article said his staff was working on a response the day before he spoke to Trump. If they didn't have that info then they really were not trying to understand what actually happened, since even us a.netters understood by then that the ET crash had huge similarities to the JT crash.

Pythagoras wrote:
Remember this behavior is all highly unusual. Why is a CEO calling the President of the United States during an on-going accident investigation when the FAA is the responsible government entity to be communicating with and to be making any public statement?

Remember as well that both Boeing and the FAA are bureaucratic organizations and decisions must be reviewed and vetted by appropriate layers of management. It isn't quite as easy as you believe for the engineering team reach a conclusion and then have the organizations instantaneously act upon that recommendation.

Like it or not, that's how the previously elected chief executive operated. Boeing is a rich corporation, their CEO's pay alone was $millions a year, it's his job and his corporation's job to be able to operate in the environment as it exists, not how it used to exist in 1969.

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
The last two paragraphs though capture how this was so similar to what happened 40 years earlier.

Didn't read since it's behind a paywall...

Maybe I should adjust my reference above to 1979?

To be honest it does feel like Boeing was acting the way it would have acted 40 or 50 years earlier. Just put out the word that the airplane is safe without doing the work to check if the airplane doesn't have a huge flaw like the ADS-B data should have suggested to Boeing Engineering. Assume the public accepts the occasional catastrophic plane crash as a price to pay for air travel like they might have in 1969 or 1979. Don't be proactive and ground the plane yourself even though you have two different crashes with similar circumstances, let the FAA be the heavy and make you do it, far less law suits that way. Keep making the story about how FAA wasn't strict enough even though you continuously lobby the FAA to be more lenient and in the end it's a Boeing plane that crashes regardless of FAA regulations.

I also made the argument that there are risks in air travel shortly after both crashes, and argued to wait till more facts were in, but of course Boeing had facts pretty quickly and seems to have spent their time trying to figure out how to deal with the bad news, and in a way, still are.

My reaction may have been tempered because I have seen risks involving air travel. People working in the same facility as me were on SR-111 in 1998. People in my church knew some pilots and crew that were lost on 9/11. So there is risk every time you get in an airplane, just like when you get into a car.

The difference here is that the 2nd MCAS crash was avoidable, just like the 2nd DC-10 crash was. In both cases it's apparent that a big corporation wasn't willing to accept it could and did make mistakes. Its default posture was to be in denial till it could no longer could plausibly remain in denial, and even then try to limit the damage to one or two individuals making human errors rather than admitting its system did not detect designs with serious problems.
As far as I can tell, the article is not pay walled. Read it in full earlier and can still access the whole article.

After reading that article, I think that the FAA erred big time because 1979 was a failure in regulation. The similarities should not have been lost to them when the first MAX crash happened. When you look at AA191, and the changes that were brought after to allow the jet to return to service. They did not stop at poor maintenance practices, but understood that the main reason the jet crashed was the crew did not have relevant information and there was not enough redundancy.

It is hard to say that much could have been expected from Boeing, and I believe that this is a tragedy. They got so much wrong that it is hard to imagine that a company that cares about its product could allow so much to go wrong. Then double down on everything even at the worst of times.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:42 pm

And DOJ indicted Mark Forkner the former Boeing pilot for fraud.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/fo ... cted-fraud
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:21 pm

Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:52 pm

LAXintl wrote:
And DOJ indicted Mark Forkner the former Boeing pilot for fraud.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/fo ... cted-fraud


of course they did. the goat. but not in the same sense as TomBradey.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:55 pm

UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Completely agree. He’s not totally free of fault by any means, but do you think he made this all up himself? He just woke up one morning and decided all by himself to hide MCAS from the FAA to save Boeing money?

Of course not. He was pressured by management to do this. The same management who now throws him under the bus while they line their own pockets with money.
 
kalvado
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:02 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Completely agree. He’s not totally free of fault by any means, but do you think he made this all up himself? He just woke up one morning and decided all by himself to hide MCAS from the FAA to save Boeing money?

Of course not. He was pressured by management to do this. The same management who now throws him under the bus while they line their own pockets with money.

We all hope that prosecutors understand that and actually just getting a foot in the door, eventually letting him off the hook
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:43 am

UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Forkner committed a serious crime. However, the CEO committed more serious crimes while arguing against grounding the fleet. He shouldn’t walk free again.

It’s important these guys understand that being a pig and killing people isn’t okay. It was obvious what they were doing. Maybe they can plead mental illness. But they were of sound mind and extremely well qualified. IMO, this means convictions for the deaths.
 
IADFCO
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:27 am

LCDFlight wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Forkner committed a serious crime. However, the CEO committed more serious crimes while arguing against grounding the fleet. He shouldn’t walk free again.

It’s important these guys understand that being a pig and killing people isn’t okay. It was obvious what they were doing. Maybe they can plead mental illness. But they were of sound mind and extremely well qualified. IMO, this means convictions for the deaths.


Sometimes they start with a (relatively) low level guy (or gal), make him plead guilty to a lesser offense or give him immunity in exchange for information on higher level people, then they go to them and repeat, until they get as high as needed. It happens in DC all the time.

Another DC staple is the question: "What did he know and when did he know it?". Perhaps this question has not been asked often enough and about high enough people. I wish that Frontline had gone deeper into this.

A third DC staple is: "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up" (that gets you into the worse trouble), although, sadly, this is less applicable because a lot of people have lost their life.
 
sxf24
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:26 am

LCDFlight wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Forkner committed a serious crime. However, the CEO committed more serious crimes while arguing against grounding the fleet. He shouldn’t walk free again.

It’s important these guys understand that being a pig and killing people isn’t okay. It was obvious what they were doing. Maybe they can plead mental illness. But they were of sound mind and extremely well qualified. IMO, this means convictions for the deaths.


I think you’re confusing moral failings with a criminal act.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:39 pm

sxf24 wrote:
I think you’re confusing moral failings with a criminal act.

Indeed, and the human error defense is still intact, with the unnamed four second guy still being kept under wraps.
 
ubeema
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:25 pm

Interesting development. I’m surprised but not shocked by the indictment. No way the repercussions stop with that guy. I could be wrong but more and bigger shoes will drop.
 
hinckley
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:34 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Sometimes they start with a (relatively) low level guy (or gal), make him plead guilty to a lesser offense or give him immunity in exchange for information on higher level people, then they go to them and repeat, until they get as high as needed. It happens in DC all the time.

That's right. Look at the VW dieselgate scandal. The first indictments were the guys on the ground directly interfacing with the state emissions testers (the equivalent of Boeing's test pilot). They didn't stop until VW's CEO was indicted in Germany.
 
hivue
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:05 pm

The Dallas Morning News article on this topic says:

The Grand Jury indicted Forkner on two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce...

Does anyone know what the aircraft parts in question are? His position was chief simulator technical pilot, so something to do with the sim or sim parts?. Can sim parts be classified as "aircraft parts?" Or just stretching (almost to the breaking point) legalese?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:02 pm

hivue wrote:
The Dallas Morning News article on this topic says:

The Grand Jury indicted Forkner on two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce...

Does anyone know what the aircraft parts in question are? His position was chief simulator technical pilot, so something to do with the sim or sim parts?. Can sim parts be classified as "aircraft parts?" Or just stretching (almost to the breaking point) legalese?


Mark was a Chief Technical Pilot. That group’s role is to develop the procedures and training. They give input to the simulator groups and FCOM team.

He was not a Test Pilot as is commonly misstated. There is a different pilot organization that are the Engineering Test Pilots.

I don’t see how he would have any involvement with parts. I don’t follow that charge either.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:28 pm

hivue wrote:
The Dallas Morning News article on this topic says:

The Grand Jury indicted Forkner on two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce...

Does anyone know what the aircraft parts in question are? His position was chief simulator technical pilot, so something to do with the sim or sim parts?. Can sim parts be classified as "aircraft parts?" Or just stretching (almost to the breaking point) legalese?

I am not a lawyer, but yes, is legalese. The idea would be to try this in the federal court system rather than state, and to do that you need a federal crime. Since regulation of interstate commerce is a federal responsibility, finding something that involves parts that cross state lines would create a federal case. It's the same thing when you see someone brought up for mail fraud while doing something more sinister. Also famously Al Capone got busted for cheating on his federal tax return, not all the other stuff he was known to have done that would have been heard in a state court.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:33 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Mark was a Chief Technical Pilot. That group’s role is to develop the procedures and training. They give input to the simulator groups and FCOM team.

He was not a Test Pilot as is commonly misstated. There is a different pilot organization that are the Engineering Test Pilots.

Seems Scott Hamilton also doesn't understand Forkner's job title or role:

"Former Boeing executive indicted for fraud in 737 Max tragedy"
@CNN: Forkner was not an "executive". He was a low level technical test pilot. Geez, get it right.

Ref: https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 5205865474
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:56 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
hivue wrote:
The Dallas Morning News article on this topic says:

The Grand Jury indicted Forkner on two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce...

Does anyone know what the aircraft parts in question are? His position was chief simulator technical pilot, so something to do with the sim or sim parts?. Can sim parts be classified as "aircraft parts?" Or just stretching (almost to the breaking point) legalese?

I don’t see how he would have any involvement with parts. I don’t follow that charge either.

Bloomberg's report (visible if you clear cookies) says:

He’s accused of providing the FAA with false, inaccurate and incomplete information about a new part of the flight controls for the Max.

Because of his alleged actions, airplane manuals and pilot-training materials for U.S. airlines didn’t have any reference to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, the software system that was later linked to both tragedies.

“In an attempt to save Boeing money, Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators,” Chad E. Meacham, the Acting U.S. Attorney in Dallas, said in a statement. “His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency’s ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls.”

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... markets-vp

So it seems they are treating the flight control computer as a "part" that crosses state lines.

It overall seems a clumsy and heavy-handed set of charges, but like others, I think it's designed to pressure him into flipping on others within Boeing.

It goes on to describe him as a "mid-level manager" which seems more accurate than the description that CNN used, "executive".

The article finishes with:

Forkner is charged with two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce, and four counts of wire fraud. If convicted, Faulkner faces as long as 20 years in prison for each count of wire fraud, and 10 years for each count of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce.

Wire fraud could simply be sending email to FAA that represents an act of fraud from the prosecutor's point of view. It's another federal level charge.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:26 pm

What?

overall seems a clumsy and heavy-handed set of charges, but like others, I think it's designed to pressure him into flipping on others within Boeing.


He left Boeing in 2018. So, who would he be protecting? He is paying for his own defense. If he could point the finger at someone else you think he would have done it a long time ago.

Additionally, they went through every email, from every employee that had anything to do with the MAX. All they found was these 2, taking like idiots.
 
hivue
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Also famously Al Capone got busted for cheating on his federal tax return, not all the other stuff he was known to have done that would have been heard in a state court.


Indicting Forkner strikes me as analogous to busting Al Capone's brother-in-law's best friend so they can pat themselves on the back and say" "See. We're not letting these people get away with anything on our watch."
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:08 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
What?

overall seems a clumsy and heavy-handed set of charges, but like others, I think it's designed to pressure him into flipping on others within Boeing.


He left Boeing in 2018. So, who would he be protecting? He is paying for his own defense. If he could point the finger at someone else you think he would have done it a long time ago.

Additionally, they went through every email, from every employee that had anything to do with the MAX. All they found was these 2, taking like idiots.

Sorry, but unless you can provide a link showing otherwise, you have no way of proving you know anything more about Forkner's past and current motivations or which emails/texts the DoD did or did not review or what they found than any of the rest of us do.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
What?

overall seems a clumsy and heavy-handed set of charges, but like others, I think it's designed to pressure him into flipping on others within Boeing.


He left Boeing in 2018. So, who would he be protecting? He is paying for his own defense. If he could point the finger at someone else you think he would have done it a long time ago.

Additionally, they went through every email, from every employee that had anything to do with the MAX. All they found was these 2, taking like idiots.

Sorry, but unless you can provide a link showing otherwise, you have no way of proving you know anything more about Forkner's past and current motivations or which emails/texts the DoD did or did not review or what they found than any of the rest of us do.


The link is every news story out there that shows the emails he sent. They were also in the Congressional reports that were released and the DOJ report. So, if they had anything else it would have been in those stories and reports.

I know he left Boeing in 2018 because his LinkedIn profile is still up and it is also in every news story about him. So again, who would he be protecting? It’s not like he is trying to save his job.

What prof do you have that this is going to uncover some great conspiracy that multiple investigations to this point have not uncovered?
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:57 pm

Unfortunately too many pilots today do not know how to hand fly aircraft. The only thing that saves them is all the electronic automated systems they rely on. If a system fails, like MCAS, which was NOT properly engineered and they do not know about it and do not have the ability to disable it they are up a creek without paddle. When I hired in as a mechanic most, if not all, pilots had hundreds if not thousand of hours flying real aircraft up and including fighters in combat. Now they go to some college or technical school learn the basics of flying in nothing more than glorified twin engined private aircraft so they can accumulate enough hours to be "qualified" to fly some commuter aircraft while hot bunking it between flights and short on sleep. Boeing does not build aircraft like they used to where it took a real pilot to fly their aircraft. Airbus probably falls into the same category. When pilots have enough real training and experience to fly an aircraft pilots will be more than able to handle a real emergency like Tammie Jo Shults did when the Southwest Airlines 737 she was captain of had an engine tear itself apart and successfully landed it at Pittsburg, PA several years ago. :old:
 
kalvado
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:41 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Unfortunately too many pilots today do not know how to hand fly aircraft. The only thing that saves them is all the electronic automated systems they rely on. If a system fails, like MCAS, which was NOT properly engineered and they do not know about it and do not have the ability to disable it they are up a creek without paddle. When I hired in as a mechanic most, if not all, pilots had hundreds if not thousand of hours flying real aircraft up and including fighters in combat. Now they go to some college or technical school learn the basics of flying in nothing more than glorified twin engined private aircraft so they can accumulate enough hours to be "qualified" to fly some commuter aircraft while hot bunking it between flights and short on sleep. Boeing does not build aircraft like they used to where it took a real pilot to fly their aircraft. Airbus probably falls into the same category. When pilots have enough real training and experience to fly an aircraft pilots will be more than able to handle a real emergency like Tammie Jo Shults did when the Southwest Airlines 737 she was captain of had an engine tear itself apart and successfully landed it at Pittsburg, PA several years ago. :old:

On the other end of the spectrum, every pilots who sees Chuck Eager as their role model should realize that the only reason they are still alive is not their set of supreme skills, but draconian regulatory system preventing them from demonstration of those skills.
 
subramak1
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:50 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Forkner committed a serious crime. However, the CEO committed more serious crimes while arguing against grounding the fleet. He shouldn’t walk free again.

It’s important these guys understand that being a pig and killing people isn’t okay. It was obvious what they were doing. Maybe they can plead mental illness. But they were of sound mind and extremely well qualified. IMO, this means convictions for the deaths.


I suspect he is being charged criminally to get him to give up others who were in the scheme.

Let us see how that works.

Best, Subramanian
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
I am not a lawyer, but yes, is legalese. The idea would be to try this in the federal court system rather than state, and to do that you need a federal crime. Since regulation of interstate commerce is a federal responsibility, finding something that involves parts that cross state lines would create a federal case.


Yep. That keeps the Feds in charge of prosecution. They have the resources that many states could not bring to the case.
 
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:17 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
The link is every news story out there that shows the emails he sent. They were also in the Congressional reports that were released and the DOJ report. So, if they had anything else it would have been in those stories and reports.

You are free to believe that FBI/DoJ reviewed every email and text (which you've already posted) without missing anything, and they aren't withholding anything. Same for the 1-1 interviews they conducted. I'm open to the possibility that they didn't.

I know he left Boeing in 2018 because his LinkedIn profile is still up and it is also in every news story about him. So again, who would he be protecting? It’s not like he is trying to save his job.

All I said is was we don't know what his past and/or current motivations were. Indeed he has expensive legal representation from a very prominent lawyer and presumably not the current income stream to support that. Maybe he's been able to foot the bill till now on past earnings but things are changing now that he's being personally indicted. Maybe he has been protecting people out of personal reasons but now that jail time is in the equation he feels he can't do that any more. Who knows?

What prof do you have that this is going to uncover some great conspiracy that multiple investigations to this point have not uncovered?

In other words you really don't know any more about Forkner's motivations than the rest of us, and to avoid admitting that you chose to go into attack mode instead.
 
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NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:29 pm

kalvado wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Unfortunately too many pilots today do not know how to hand fly aircraft. The only thing that saves them is all the electronic automated systems they rely on. If a system fails, like MCAS, which was NOT properly engineered and they do not know about it and do not have the ability to disable it they are up a creek without paddle. When I hired in as a mechanic most, if not all, pilots had hundreds if not thousand of hours flying real aircraft up and including fighters in combat. Now they go to some college or technical school learn the basics of flying in nothing more than glorified twin engined private aircraft so they can accumulate enough hours to be "qualified" to fly some commuter aircraft while hot bunking it between flights and short on sleep. Boeing does not build aircraft like they used to where it took a real pilot to fly their aircraft. Airbus probably falls into the same category. When pilots have enough real training and experience to fly an aircraft pilots will be more than able to handle a real emergency like Tammie Jo Shults did when the Southwest Airlines 737 she was captain of had an engine tear itself apart and successfully landed it at Pittsburg, PA several years ago. :old:

On the other end of the spectrum, every pilots who sees Chuck Eager as their role model should realize that the only reason they are still alive is not their set of supreme skills, but draconian regulatory system preventing them from demonstration of those skills.

There are unfortunately times pilots must demonstrate their supreme skills as I stated in the above post by Tammies Jo Shults. Also unfortunately the FAA has been allowing Aircraft Manufactures, like Boeing, to do their own inspections rather that the FAA perform the necessary inspections themselves which allow mistakes to fall between the cracks. When I was a mechanic work that required an inspection was inspected and signed off by an inspection. Mechanics did NOT do their own inspections. :old:
 
sxf24
Posts: 1354
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:42 pm

subramak1 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Imo, Forkner becomes the fall guy for Boeing. Not sure I agree with charging him criminally.


Forkner committed a serious crime. However, the CEO committed more serious crimes while arguing against grounding the fleet. He shouldn’t walk free again.

It’s important these guys understand that being a pig and killing people isn’t okay. It was obvious what they were doing. Maybe they can plead mental illness. But they were of sound mind and extremely well qualified. IMO, this means convictions for the deaths.


I suspect he is being charged criminally to get him to give up others who were in the scheme.

Let us see how that works.

Best, Subramanian


No.

Boeing was already charged with criminal conspiracy to defraud the FAA and reached agreement to defer prosecution. There was a significant investigation and it does not appear that this charge is being used as leverage.

“The [DOJ] ultimately determined that… (i) the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management; (ii) although two of Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Technical Pilots deceived the FAA…”
 
LCDFlight
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Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:32 am

sxf24 wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Forkner committed a serious crime. However, the CEO committed more serious crimes while arguing against grounding the fleet. He shouldn’t walk free again.

It’s important these guys understand that being a pig and killing people isn’t okay. It was obvious what they were doing. Maybe they can plead mental illness. But they were of sound mind and extremely well qualified. IMO, this means convictions for the deaths.


I suspect he is being charged criminally to get him to give up others who were in the scheme.

Let us see how that works.

Best, Subramanian


No.

Boeing was already charged with criminal conspiracy to defraud the FAA and reached agreement to defer prosecution. There was a significant investigation and it does not appear that this charge is being used as leverage.

“The [DOJ] ultimately determined that… (i) the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management; (ii) although two of Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Technical Pilots deceived the FAA…”


That seems like hogwash.

“If we knew everything back then that we know now, we would have grounded the airplanes after the first accident,” CEO Mullenberg said in late 2019.

What on Earth was he talking about there? He didn’t know?

Starting soon after Lion Air 610 in Oct 2018, Boeing knew the MCAS caused the accident. Mullenberg is an engineer himself. In March 2019, tragically, MCAS brought Ethiopian 302 down. This was due to the same issue Mullenberg already knew about. After Ethiopian crash, Mullenberg called Trump in an attempt to keep the 737 Max flying, because it was still “safe.”

My question is, what did Mullenberg “learn” during mid 2019 that he didn’t already know within 30 days of Lion Air 610? He seems to be pleading stupidity in an effort to claim he wasn’t being downright evil. But I don’t believe it. FAA say they believed he was just confused or dumb. Ridiculous, IMO.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:56 am

Revelation wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
The link is every news story out there that shows the emails he sent. They were also in the Congressional reports that were released and the DOJ report. So, if they had anything else it would have been in those stories and reports.

You are free to believe that FBI/DoJ reviewed every email and text (which you've already posted) without missing anything, and they aren't withholding anything. Same for the 1-1 interviews they conducted. I'm open to the possibility that they didn't.

I know he left Boeing in 2018 because his LinkedIn profile is still up and it is also in every news story about him. So again, who would he be protecting? It’s not like he is trying to save his job.

All I said is was we don't know what his past and/or current motivations were. Indeed he has expensive legal representation from a very prominent lawyer and presumably not the current income stream to support that. Maybe he's been able to foot the bill till now on past earnings but things are changing now that he's being personally indicted. Maybe he has been protecting people out of personal reasons but now that jail time is in the equation he feels he can't do that any more. Who knows?

What prof do you have that this is going to uncover some great conspiracy that multiple investigations to this point have not uncovered?

In other words you really don't know any more about Forkner's motivations than the rest of us, and to avoid admitting that you chose to go into attack mode instead.


Sorry, you went on the attack first saying I need to post prof but you have been going on and on about how this is going to lead to other prosecutions. Well, it’s not. They haven’t been able to keep anything a secret. Everything is getting leaked. So if they had prof someone else was involved we would know about it. This is just how Forkner talks and it got him in trouble. Hope he can keep paying his good lawyer.
 
LDRA
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:58 am

Is Mullenberg sleeping well at night nowadays?
 
sxf24
Posts: 1354
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:28 am

LCDFlight wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
subramak1 wrote:

I suspect he is being charged criminally to get him to give up others who were in the scheme.

Let us see how that works.

Best, Subramanian


No.

Boeing was already charged with criminal conspiracy to defraud the FAA and reached agreement to defer prosecution. There was a significant investigation and it does not appear that this charge is being used as leverage.

“The [DOJ] ultimately determined that… (i) the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management; (ii) although two of Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Technical Pilots deceived the FAA…”


That seems like hogwash.

“If we knew everything back then that we know now, we would have grounded the airplanes after the first accident,” CEO Mullenberg said in late 2019.

What on Earth was he talking about there? He didn’t know?

Starting soon after Lion Air 610 in Oct 2018, Boeing knew the MCAS caused the accident. Mullenberg is an engineer himself. In March 2019, tragically, MCAS brought Ethiopian 302 down. This was due to the same issue Mullenberg already knew about. After Ethiopian crash, Mullenberg called Trump in an attempt to keep the 737 Max flying, because it was still “safe.”

My question is, what did Mullenberg “learn” during mid 2019 that he didn’t already know within 30 days of Lion Air 610? He seems to be pleading stupidity in an effort to claim he wasn’t being downright evil. But I don’t believe it. FAA say they believed he was just confused or dumb. Ridiculous, IMO.


You’re asking questions that no one here can answer. I would say that we rarely know everything upfront. We make the best judgements possible, but sometimes they’re wrong. There is, and should be, accountability for negligence or malice, but we need to recognize that sometimes the best decision possible at that point in time turns out to be bad.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1982
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:20 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
kalvado wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Unfortunately too many pilots today do not know how to hand fly aircraft. The only thing that saves them is all the electronic automated systems they rely on. If a system fails, like MCAS, which was NOT properly engineered and they do not know about it and do not have the ability to disable it they are up a creek without paddle. When I hired in as a mechanic most, if not all, pilots had hundreds if not thousand of hours flying real aircraft up and including fighters in combat. Now they go to some college or technical school learn the basics of flying in nothing more than glorified twin engined private aircraft so they can accumulate enough hours to be "qualified" to fly some commuter aircraft while hot bunking it between flights and short on sleep. Boeing does not build aircraft like they used to where it took a real pilot to fly their aircraft. Airbus probably falls into the same category. When pilots have enough real training and experience to fly an aircraft pilots will be more than able to handle a real emergency like Tammie Jo Shults did when the Southwest Airlines 737 she was captain of had an engine tear itself apart and successfully landed it at Pittsburg, PA several years ago. :old:

On the other end of the spectrum, every pilots who sees Chuck Eager as their role model should realize that the only reason they are still alive is not their set of supreme skills, but draconian regulatory system preventing them from demonstration of those skills.

There are unfortunately times pilots must demonstrate their supreme skills as I stated in the above post by Tammies Jo Shults. Also unfortunately the FAA has been allowing Aircraft Manufactures, like Boeing, to do their own inspections rather that the FAA perform the necessary inspections themselves which allow mistakes to fall between the cracks. When I was a mechanic work that required an inspection was inspected and signed off by an inspection. Mechanics did NOT do their own inspections. :old:



Why are you trying to compare to totally different aircraft having different emergencies and using this to form your opinion? There is no doubt the crew performed admirably on that flight, but they had a different emergency at a different time of the flight. The same crew on the doomed flights is not guaranteed to have saved them as multiple different alarms just after take off is not the same as what they experienced.
 
TaromA380
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:41 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
Starting soon after Lion Air 610 in Oct 2018, Boeing knew the MCAS caused the accident. Mullenberg is an engineer himself. In March 2019, tragically, MCAS brought Ethiopian 302 down. This was due to the same issue Mullenberg already knew about. After Ethiopian crash, Mullenberg called Trump in an attempt to keep the 737 Max flying, because it was still “safe.”


Very interesting point. Following two crashes triggered by MCAS, Mullenberg was fighting to keep the MAX in the air against all regulators in the world.

Certainly, this will be one of the main defense assets of the indicted pilot. This is plain revealing of the executive will.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14785
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:22 am

Some resistance seems to growing on so many people getting a clean escape.

Who Knew?
Numerous people within Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration (“FAA”) knew about these features, as well as their violation of fundamental principles.

Boeing convinced the FAA to permit them. The FAA allowed itself to be convinced.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertzaff ... cbe5bd2ef7
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:25 am

hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Also famously Al Capone got busted for cheating on his federal tax return, not all the other stuff he was known to have done that would have been heard in a state court.


Indicting Forkner strikes me as analogous to busting Al Capone's brother-in-law's best friend so they can pat themselves on the back and say" "See. We're not letting these people get away with anything on our watch."


I'm more reminded of Eddie O'Hare, Butch's dad (ORD) and one of Al Capone's attorneys. The allegation has long been that Eddie O'Hare gave the IRS the info they needed to get the conviction on Big Al, for which Eddie paid with his life. Democrat prosecutors went on fishing expeditions after Trumps lawyers the same way. It's a dirty game. It will be interesting to see if this pilot goes down alone or drags others along.
 
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spinotter
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:59 am

LDRA wrote:
Is Mullenberg sleeping well at night nowadays?


Based on his record, money enough will allow him to sleep easy for the duration.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 692
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:29 pm

spinotter wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Is Mullenberg sleeping well at night nowadays?


Based on his record, money enough will allow him to sleep easy for the duration.


If Peter DeFazio had his way, that could change
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-lawmaker-blames-boeing-leaders-culture-that-led-crashes-2021-10-15/
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 27035
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:19 pm

TaromA380 wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Starting soon after Lion Air 610 in Oct 2018, Boeing knew the MCAS caused the accident. Mullenberg is an engineer himself. In March 2019, tragically, MCAS brought Ethiopian 302 down. This was due to the same issue Mullenberg already knew about. After Ethiopian crash, Mullenberg called Trump in an attempt to keep the 737 Max flying, because it was still “safe.”


Very interesting point. Following two crashes triggered by MCAS, Mullenberg was fighting to keep the MAX in the air against all regulators in the world.

Certainly, this will be one of the main defense assets of the indicted pilot. This is plain revealing of the executive will.

It'll be interesting to see what his defense strategy will be. If he wants to say it's due to "executive will", names will have to be named. He won't get the off the hook by saying "I just felt this is what the executives wanted", it'd have to be more along the lines of "X told me to do it".

SteelChair wrote:
hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Also famously Al Capone got busted for cheating on his federal tax return, not all the other stuff he was known to have done that would have been heard in a state court.

Indicting Forkner strikes me as analogous to busting Al Capone's brother-in-law's best friend so they can pat themselves on the back and say" "See. We're not letting these people get away with anything on our watch."

I'm more reminded of Eddie O'Hare, Butch's dad (ORD) and one of Al Capone's attorneys. The allegation has long been that Eddie O'Hare gave the IRS the info they needed to get the conviction on Big Al, for which Eddie paid with his life. Democrat prosecutors went on fishing expeditions after Trumps lawyers the same way. It's a dirty game. It will be interesting to see if this pilot goes down alone or drags others along.

What I don't get is why go after the brother-in-law's best friend i.e. Forkner at all. The power structure got what it wanted, Boeing got a slap on the wrist and a fine whose value was inflated by money Boeing already paid out due to commercial necessities, and the story was fading away. Going after Forkner seems excessive, vindictive, and unnecessary. Why kick the sleeping dog? Is this a rogue prosecutor?
 
Daysleeper
Posts: 743
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
What I don't get is why go after the brother-in-law's best friend i.e. Forkner at all. The power structure got what it wanted, Boeing got a slap on the wrist and a fine whose value was inflated by money Boeing already paid out due to commercial necessities, and the story was fading away. Going after Forkner seems excessive, vindictive, and unnecessary. Why kick the sleeping dog? Is this a rogue prosecutor?


Rogue prosecutor? Unless I am mistaken but I believe an indicted individual is presumed innocent unless proven otherwise by a court. So why would merely bringing charges against Forkner be a rogue act? Unless you believe that there has been some sort of arrangement between Boeing and the Federal government to make this all just go away?

I am far from being a conspiracy theorist, but no matter how much I try to avoid the Max threads as soon as I start reading one I get the same gut-wrenching stench of corporate corruption and “too big to fail” as I got following the financial crisis of 08.

I am not a hater either and I don’t believe the world would be a better place without Boeing, but neither do I think they have paid their due’s yet for the negligent manslaughter of 346 people.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:32 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I don't get is why go after the brother-in-law's best friend i.e. Forkner at all. The power structure got what it wanted, Boeing got a slap on the wrist and a fine whose value was inflated by money Boeing already paid out due to commercial necessities, and the story was fading away. Going after Forkner seems excessive, vindictive, and unnecessary. Why kick the sleeping dog? Is this a rogue prosecutor?


Rogue prosecutor? Unless I am mistaken but I believe an indicted individual is presumed innocent unless proven otherwise by a court. So why would merely bringing charges against Forkner be a rogue act? Unless you believe that there has been some sort of arrangement between Boeing and the Federal government to make this all just go away?

I am far from being a conspiracy theorist, but no matter how much I try to avoid the Max threads as soon as I start reading one I get the same gut-wrenching stench of corporate corruption and “too big to fail” as I got following the financial crisis of 08.

I am not a hater either and I don’t believe the world would be a better place without Boeing, but neither do I think they have paid their due’s yet for the negligent manslaughter of 346 people.


Your last sentence answers your question....there hasn't been a sufficient price paid yet.

The pilot is just a lever to which force can be applied....the targets are those on the other end of the lever.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I don't get is why go after the brother-in-law's best friend i.e. Forkner at all. The power structure got what it wanted, Boeing got a slap on the wrist and a fine whose value was inflated by money Boeing already paid out due to commercial necessities, and the story was fading away. Going after Forkner seems excessive, vindictive, and unnecessary. Why kick the sleeping dog? Is this a rogue prosecutor?


Rogue prosecutor? Unless I am mistaken but I believe an indicted individual is presumed innocent unless proven otherwise by a court. So why would merely bringing charges against Forkner be a rogue act? Unless you believe that there has been some sort of arrangement between Boeing and the Federal government to make this all just go away?

I am far from being a conspiracy theorist, but no matter how much I try to avoid the Max threads as soon as I start reading one I get the same gut-wrenching stench of corporate corruption and “too big to fail” as I got following the financial crisis of 08.

I am not a hater either and I don’t believe the world would be a better place without Boeing, but neither do I think they have paid their due’s yet for the negligent manslaughter of 346 people.


Your last sentence answers your question....there hasn't been a sufficient price paid yet.

The pilot is just a lever to which force can be applied....the targets are those on the other end of the lever.



Who is on the other end of the lever? He hasn’t worked for Boeing since 2018 and the DOJ found no evidence executives pressuring him to do what he did. They were very specific about that in the report.

The department ultimately determined that an independent compliance monitor was unnecessary based on the following factors, among others: (i) the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management; (ii) although two of Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Technical Pilots deceived the FAA AEG about MCAS by way of misleading statements, half-truths, and omissions, others in Boeing disclosed MCAS’s expanded operational scope to different FAA personnel who were responsible for determining whether the 737 MAX met U.S. federal airworthiness standards; (iii) the state of Boeing’s remedial improvements to its compliance program and internal controls; and (iv) Boeing’s agreement to enhanced compliance program reporting requirements, as described above.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:15 pm

oldJoe wrote:
spinotter wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Is Mullenberg sleeping well at night nowadays?


Based on his record, money enough will allow him to sleep easy for the duration.


If Peter DeFazio had his way, that could change
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-lawmaker-blames-boeing-leaders-culture-that-led-crashes-2021-10-15/


Interesting! I don't see how it would be possible to convict the chief test pilot and leave all his supervisors and upper management free of any consequences, as if the test pilot concocted the strategy and put it into execution on his own, without anyone else knowing, but that seems to be how these things often work.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: PBS Frontline: Boeing's Fatal Flaw

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:16 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Daysleeper wrote:

Rogue prosecutor? Unless I am mistaken but I believe an indicted individual is presumed innocent unless proven otherwise by a court. So why would merely bringing charges against Forkner be a rogue act? Unless you believe that there has been some sort of arrangement between Boeing and the Federal government to make this all just go away?

I am far from being a conspiracy theorist, but no matter how much I try to avoid the Max threads as soon as I start reading one I get the same gut-wrenching stench of corporate corruption and “too big to fail” as I got following the financial crisis of 08.

I am not a hater either and I don’t believe the world would be a better place without Boeing, but neither do I think they have paid their due’s yet for the negligent manslaughter of 346 people.


Your last sentence answers your question....there hasn't been a sufficient price paid yet.

The pilot is just a lever to which force can be applied....the targets are those on the other end of the lever.



Who is on the other end of the lever? He hasn’t worked for Boeing since 2018 and the DOJ found no evidence executives pressuring him to do what he did. They were very specific about that in the report.

The department ultimately determined that an independent compliance monitor was unnecessary based on the following factors, among others: (i) the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management; (ii) although two of Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Technical Pilots deceived the FAA AEG about MCAS by way of misleading statements, half-truths, and omissions, others in Boeing disclosed MCAS’s expanded operational scope to different FAA personnel who were responsible for determining whether the 737 MAX met U.S. federal airworthiness standards; (iii) the state of Boeing’s remedial improvements to its compliance program and internal controls; and (iv) Boeing’s agreement to enhanced compliance program reporting requirements, as described above.


Perhaps certain folks aren't satisfied....always a little deeper to dig.....apply a little pressure and see what leaks out. Mho. It appears to me as an outside observer that the behavior was in fact pervasive.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:27 pm

spinotter wrote:

Interesting! I don't see how it would be possible to convict the chief test pilot and leave all his supervisors and upper management free of any consequences, as if the test pilot concocted the strategy and put it into execution on his own, without anyone else knowing, but that seems to be how these things often work.


Well, he wasn’t a test pilot, so there’s that!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 27035
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:46 pm

spinotter wrote:
Interesting! I don't see how it would be possible to convict the chief test pilot and leave all his supervisors and upper management free of any consequences, as if the test pilot concocted the strategy and put it into execution on his own, without anyone else knowing, but that seems to be how these things often work.

I guess we'll find out more based on how these charges proceed. If it ends in a plea bargain, he apparently doesn't have any evidence he can use against anyone else further up the ladder from him. If it goes to trial, I think we'll hear more about others who may have shaped his thoughts and actions.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1354
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, test pilot indicted.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:57 pm

spinotter wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Based on his record, money enough will allow him to sleep easy for the duration.


If Peter DeFazio had his way, that could change
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-lawmaker-blames-boeing-leaders-culture-that-led-crashes-2021-10-15/


Interesting! I don't see how it would be possible to convict the chief test pilot and leave all his supervisors and upper management free of any consequences, as if the test pilot concocted the strategy and put it into execution on his own, without anyone else knowing, but that seems to be how these things often work.


The issue is not the existence of MCAS or even its prior configuration. The crime being charged is knowingly withholding details of the system from the FAA and customers.

I’d be interested to know what other crimes allegedly occurred or if there’s simply an emotional motivation to see other individuals punished.
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