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FLYBY72
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting interview by Dominick Gates of Seattle Times with two of BCA's senior leaders at https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... x-crashes/
The article points out repeatedly how Boeing has pretty much lost the narrowbody market segment to Airbus and has nothing in its near term road map that can change that situation.

Well, when the only place you get your "information" is this moron at the Seattle Times, I see how you could think that.

I bet Boeing has a few things up their sleeve...

These article you love to reference are written for clicks. Entertainment produces clicks. They are light on facts because facts are boring.

Great, you trash a guy who has a well established track record for journalism including a Pulitzer Prize and expect others to lean into the "bet" of an anonymous Internet poster instead. Feel free to give us some information to back up your "bet", if you actually have any.


Oh give me a break. Seriously? I post all kinds of quotes and you ignore them. My quotes come from DOJ reports, not washed up hacks claiming to be journalists. Pulitzer? That is worth about as much as an MTV Moon Man. He knows he lied in half those articles. Especially the one about Boeing coaching the FAA during a SIM session. He saw the video that clearly showed who was coaching, and it wasn’t Boeing. He said that he was quoting the whistleblower and they were vetted. Then he just dropped the story and never followed up on it. He doesn’t care about the truth. He cares about saving his job and a failing newspaper.

Boeing also doesn’t pander to media like Airbus. Oh we are going to have hydrogen powered aircraft in 2035. Yeah right. So when it diverts to Clinton Sherman with a mechanical issues is someone going to drive the hydrogen truck to them from LA? Oh United is going to have supersonic aircraft flying around in a few years… no they are not.

Guess you are just going to have to wait and see when Boeing has planned.

You will also see Mark does not have a list of names of people to throw under the bus to use at his trial, well he does, but they are all FAA.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:44 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Well, when the only place you get your "information" is this moron at the Seattle Times, I see how you could think that.

I bet Boeing has a few things up their sleeve...

These article you love to reference are written for clicks. Entertainment produces clicks. They are light on facts because facts are boring.

Great, you trash a guy who has a well established track record for journalism including a Pulitzer Prize and expect others to lean into the "bet" of an anonymous Internet poster instead. Feel free to give us some information to back up your "bet", if you actually have any.


Oh give me a break. Seriously? I post all kinds of quotes and you ignore them. My quotes come from DOJ reports, not washed up hacks claiming to be journalists. Pulitzer? That is worth about as much as an MTV Moon Man. He knows he lied in half those articles. Especially the one about Boeing coaching the FAA during a SIM session. He saw the video that clearly showed who was coaching, and it wasn’t Boeing. He said that he was quoting the whistleblower and they were vetted. Then he just dropped the story and never followed up on it. He doesn’t care about the truth. He cares about saving his job and a failing newspaper.

Boeing also doesn’t pander to media like Airbus. Oh we are going to have hydrogen powered aircraft in 2035. Yeah right. So when it diverts to Clinton Sherman with a mechanical issues is someone going to drive the hydrogen truck to them from LA? Oh United is going to have supersonic aircraft flying around in a few years… no they are not.

Guess you are just going to have to wait and see when Boeing has planned.

You will also see Mark does not have a list of names of people to throw under the bus to use at his trial, well he does, but they are all FAA.

I value your posts, both those that are opinion and those that are substantiated, same for sxf24 too.

I'm still not seeing you back up your "bet" in any way. I guess I should just treat that as opinion and wish you a nice day.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Great, you trash a guy who has a well established track record for journalism including a Pulitzer Prize and expect others to lean into the "bet" of an anonymous Internet poster instead. Feel free to give us some information to back up your "bet", if you actually have any.


Oh give me a break. Seriously? I post all kinds of quotes and you ignore them. My quotes come from DOJ reports, not washed up hacks claiming to be journalists. Pulitzer? That is worth about as much as an MTV Moon Man. He knows he lied in half those articles. Especially the one about Boeing coaching the FAA during a SIM session. He saw the video that clearly showed who was coaching, and it wasn’t Boeing. He said that he was quoting the whistleblower and they were vetted. Then he just dropped the story and never followed up on it. He doesn’t care about the truth. He cares about saving his job and a failing newspaper.

Boeing also doesn’t pander to media like Airbus. Oh we are going to have hydrogen powered aircraft in 2035. Yeah right. So when it diverts to Clinton Sherman with a mechanical issues is someone going to drive the hydrogen truck to them from LA? Oh United is going to have supersonic aircraft flying around in a few years… no they are not.

Guess you are just going to have to wait and see when Boeing has planned.

You will also see Mark does not have a list of names of people to throw under the bus to use at his trial, well he does, but they are all FAA.

I value your posts, both those that are opinion and those that are substantiated, same for sxf24 too.

I'm still not seeing you back up your "bet" in any way. I guess I should just treat that as opinion and wish you a nice day.


Oh my "bet"... How about this? So much for that lost market share.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... uxbndlbing
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
Oh my "bet"... How about this? So much for that lost market share.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... uxbndlbing

Step in the right direction, but doesn't IMO make up for losing QF and KL.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Oh my "bet"... How about this? So much for that lost market share.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... uxbndlbing

Step in the right direction, but doesn't IMO make up for losing QF and KL.


Let's see about that tomorrow, when the full announcement comes out.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:18 pm

Trial Dismissal request and Another Trial delay until March for Captain Forkner: From Flight Global (behind Firewall)

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 11.article
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:25 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
Trial Dismissal request and Another Trial delay until March for Captain Forkner: From Flight Global (behind Firewall)

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 11.article

I was able to get to the report with out a login..

One interesting quote:

Forkner’s team also, on 23 December, asked O’Connor to dismiss the charges.

Attorneys note the charges hinge on the allegation that Forkner withheld details about the MCAS expansion from the FAA’s AEG. The charges do not hold up, they argue, because another FAA office – the aircraft certification office – had been told of the expanded capability by Boeing.

Smart move on their part, IMO.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:22 pm

In a somewhat 737 Max related legal action, It appears that the owners of the Boeing company (the shareholders) have had their legal action against the Boeing management involved in the 737 Max mess by possibly lying to the shareholders revived by the US appeals court on Friday. It sounds like the legal action will now be in the state of Illinois not in the state of Delaware as before. My guess is that the courts in Illinois will not be as friendly to Boeing as the courts in Delaware were. I wonder if Boeing management thought of this when they moved Boeing headquarters to Chicago years ago.
For details see:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/07/us-appe ... suit-.html
 
MrBretz
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:15 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
In a somewhat 737 Max related legal action, It appears that the owners of the Boeing company (the shareholders) have had their legal action against the Boeing management involved in the 737 Max mess by possibly lying to the shareholders revived by the US appeals court on Friday. It sounds like the legal action will now be in the state of Illinois not in the state of Delaware as before. My guess is that the courts in Illinois will not be as friendly to Boeing as the courts in Delaware were. I wonder if Boeing management thought of this when they moved Boeing headquarters to Chicago years ago.
For details see:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/07/us-appe ... suit-.html


From a simple legalistic view, I don’t see how the pension plan that is bringing the suit is harmed. They would be fools if they had put too much Boeing stock in their portfolio. So I see no way that the crashes caused them harm. I think this will be tossed out quickly.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:39 pm

My question about this is:
What effect will the information that may come out have on the criminal trial for Captain Forkner? Obviously some information may come out in this action that may effect the charges against him by the DOJ.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:11 pm

MrBretz wrote:
CanukinUSA wrote:
In a somewhat 737 Max related legal action, It appears that the owners of the Boeing company (the shareholders) have had their legal action against the Boeing management involved in the 737 Max mess by possibly lying to the shareholders revived by the US appeals court on Friday. It sounds like the legal action will now be in the state of Illinois not in the state of Delaware as before. My guess is that the courts in Illinois will not be as friendly to Boeing as the courts in Delaware were. I wonder if Boeing management thought of this when they moved Boeing headquarters to Chicago years ago.
For details see:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/07/us-appe ... suit-.html


From a simple legalistic view, I don’t see how the pension plan that is bringing the suit is harmed. They would be fools if they had put too much Boeing stock in their portfolio. So I see no way that the crashes caused them harm. I think this will be tossed out quickly.

They can sue if they only had one share of stock that they bought on the basis of Boeing management's alleged lies. The damages they'd be awarded would be relative to their amount of loss, be it one share or much more than one share. The make up of the rest of their portfolio is irrelevant.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:16 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
My question about this is:
What effect will the information that may come out have on the criminal trial for Captain Forkner? Obviously some information may come out in this action that may effect the charges against him by the DOJ.

I think that ship has sailed. Both Scott Hamilton and "Flying Blind" say that Boeing is paying Forkner's legal team. I wouldn't count on any damaging information coming out from the Forkner trial. As reported above, Forkner's team is working on getting the charges dismissed.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
CanukinUSA wrote:
My question about this is:
What effect will the information that may come out have on the criminal trial for Captain Forkner? Obviously some information may come out in this action that may effect the charges against him by the DOJ.

I think that ship has sailed. Both Scott Hamilton and "Flying Blind" say that Boeing is paying Forkner's legal team. I wouldn't count on any damaging information coming out from the Forkner trial. As reported above, Forkner's team is working on getting the charges dismissed.


I hope the charges are dismissed. Mark used poor judgement in his choice of words in written communication at times. He also had a snarky sarcastic sense of humor, all of which can be taken out of context when you see it in a newspaper article. You could see the pressure he was under. When I got to know him a bit, I could see it. He was actually a very helpful conscientious person. I don’t believe he would have intentionally done something to disregard safety.

Maybe he made some mistakes or used poor judgement in his choice of words, but he’s no criminal.

The executives who pressured him to minimize training are the criminals.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:53 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Maybe he made some mistakes or used poor judgement in his choice of words, but he’s no criminal.

The executives who pressured him to minimize training are the criminals.


If a person was under some peer pressure to have a few drinks with colleagues after work, and then decided to drive home, and accidentally kill somebody in the process. The person who would be charged as a criminal is the driver, even if they had no intent, and even if there was peer pressure to have a few drinks.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:37 pm

zeke wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Maybe he made some mistakes or used poor judgement in his choice of words, but he’s no criminal.

The executives who pressured him to minimize training are the criminals.


If a person was under some peer pressure to have a few drinks with colleagues after work, and then decided to drive home, and accidentally kill somebody in the process. The person who would be charged as a criminal is the driver, even if they had no intent, and even if there was peer pressure to have a few drinks.


Bad analogy. Mark had nothing to do with the design of the system and information on the design was withheld from him. He didn’t accidentally kill anyone. He was a Tech Pilot, not a Design Engineer. He wasn’t a Test Pilot either, as is commonly misstated.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:44 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Mark had nothing to do with the design of the system and information on the design was withheld from him. He didn’t accidentally kill anyone. He was a Tech Pilot, not a Design Engineer. He wasn’t a Test Pilot either, as is commonly misstated.


Must be a case of significant mistaken identity then at all levels. How it ever got to trial after all those checks and balances in the system is beyond me.

Is his attorney asleep at the wheel ?
 
MrBretz
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
CanukinUSA wrote:
In a somewhat 737 Max related legal action, It appears that the owners of the Boeing company (the shareholders) have had their legal action against the Boeing management involved in the 737 Max mess by possibly lying to the shareholders revived by the US appeals court on Friday. It sounds like the legal action will now be in the state of Illinois not in the state of Delaware as before. My guess is that the courts in Illinois will not be as friendly to Boeing as the courts in Delaware were. I wonder if Boeing management thought of this when they moved Boeing headquarters to Chicago years ago.
For details see:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/07/us-appe ... suit-.html


From a simple legalistic view, I don’t see how the pension plan that is bringing the suit is harmed. They would be fools if they had put too much Boeing stock in their portfolio. So I see no way that the crashes caused them harm. I think this will be tossed out quickly.

They can sue if they only had one share of stock that they bought on the basis of Boeing management's alleged lies. The damages they'd be awarded would be relative to their amount of loss, be it one share or much more than one share. The make up of the rest of their portfolio is irrelevant.


Yes, you are correct. I own BA in mutual funds. So I have standing too, I imagine. Do you think the pension fund will get enough to pay for lawyer fees?
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
CanukinUSA wrote:
My question about this is:
What effect will the information that may come out have on the criminal trial for Captain Forkner? Obviously some information may come out in this action that may effect the charges against him by the DOJ.

I think that ship has sailed. Both Scott Hamilton and "Flying Blind" say that Boeing is paying Forkner's legal team. I wouldn't count on any damaging information coming out from the Forkner trial. As reported above, Forkner's team is working on getting the charges dismissed.


So let me get this straight. You will believe Scott Hamilton and "Flying Blind" say that Boeing is paying Forkner's legal team just because they said so... with no evidence? However, you don't believe the DOJ and the FBI when they say "the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management;" or "others in Boeing disclosed MCAS’s expanded operational scope to different FAA personnel who were responsible for determining whether the 737 MAX met U.S. federal airworthiness standards"

Boeing is not paying, because he is not an employee. They are most likely doing it for a reduced cost. Lawyers love publicity as much as they love money.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:15 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
So let me get this straight. You will believe Scott Hamilton and "Flying Blind" say that Boeing is paying Forkner's legal team just because they said so... with no evidence? However, you don't believe the DOJ and the FBI when they say "the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management;" or "others in Boeing disclosed MCAS’s expanded operational scope to different FAA personnel who were responsible for determining whether the 737 MAX met U.S. federal airworthiness standards"

Boeing is not paying, because he is not an employee. They are most likely doing it for a reduced cost. Lawyers love publicity as much as they love money.

That's your position, I'll stick with mine, TYVM.

I don't think an attorney like Gerger needs more publicity. I don't see how this case generates a flood of valuable clients. I do see how Boeing offering to pay Forkner's legal costs gets him to not want to go after Boeing, especially if they can get him an acquittal, and even if such payment isn't standard practice. I don't see how a mid level tech manager and then new-entrant WN pilot can pay Gerger et al what they'd charge to handle a case like this, even with a discounted fee.

I'm free to believe DoJ didn't do a very good job just like others are free to believe FAA didn't do a good job. The misconduct you find depends on what you are looking for, who's looking, and how hard they look for it. It's incongruous to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boobs.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:19 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
Boeing is not paying, because he is not an employee. They are most likely doing it for a reduced cost. Lawyers love publicity as much as they love money.


What evidence can you produce to support your definitive statement that Boeing are not paying, as unless you are purely guessing, you must have access to something that none of the rest of us do. Him not being a current employee would have no great relevance given the circumstances.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:02 pm

I would only look at defense counsel. David Gerger does not come cheap. I find it incredible that Mark Forkner, out of all this carnage, is THE only one facing criminal charges. But that is only my opinion.

Rgds
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:52 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
I would only look at defense counsel. David Gerger does not come cheap. I find it incredible that Mark Forkner, out of all this carnage, is THE only one facing criminal charges. But that is only my opinion.

Rgds


That’s what I’ve been saying. He’s being made a total scapegoat so Boeing leaders can save their hides and continue to line their pockets with money.

Mark had no influence whatsoever on the MCAS design or testing. Parts of it were even hidden from him. He made some extremely poor unprofessional wording choices in his IMs and E-mails, so Dave Calhoun is throwing him under the bus.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:59 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
I would only look at defense counsel. David Gerger does not come cheap. I find it incredible that Mark Forkner, out of all this carnage, is THE only one facing criminal charges. But that is only my opinion.

Rgds


That’s what I’ve been saying. He’s being made a total scapegoat so Boeing leaders can save their hides and continue to line their pockets with money.

Mark had no influence whatsoever on the MCAS design or testing. Parts of it were even hidden from him. He made some extremely poor unprofessional wording choices in his IMs and E-mails, so Dave Calhoun is throwing him under the bus.


Having worked at a manufacturer, before anyone heard of the MAX or Forkner, I looked twice at every email and asked, “how could this look in a deposition, a headline and could I defend it?” Company got sued a few times over poorly thought out “guarantees”; promises and the like. I made sure I wasn’t part of it.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:13 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
I would only look at defense counsel. David Gerger does not come cheap. I find it incredible that Mark Forkner, out of all this carnage, is THE only one facing criminal charges. But that is only my opinion.

Rgds


That’s what I’ve been saying. He’s being made a total scapegoat so Boeing leaders can save their hides and continue to line their pockets with money.

Mark had no influence whatsoever on the MCAS design or testing. Parts of it were even hidden from him. He made some extremely poor unprofessional wording choices in his IMs and E-mails, so Dave Calhoun is throwing him under the bus.


Having worked at a manufacturer, before anyone heard of the MAX or Forkner, I looked twice at every email and asked, “how could this look in a deposition, a headline and could I defend it?” Company got sued a few times over poorly thought out “guarantees”; promises and the like. I made sure I wasn’t part of it.


Agreed. Don’t think we haven’t gotten coached by Legal what and what not to put in e-mails and IMs. I’m also very careful to maintain professionalism.
 
sxf24
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:47 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
I would only look at defense counsel. David Gerger does not come cheap. I find it incredible that Mark Forkner, out of all this carnage, is THE only one facing criminal charges. But that is only my opinion.

Rgds


That’s what I’ve been saying. He’s being made a total scapegoat so Boeing leaders can save their hides and continue to line their pockets with money.

Mark had no influence whatsoever on the MCAS design or testing. Parts of it were even hidden from him. He made some extremely poor unprofessional wording choices in his IMs and E-mails, so Dave Calhoun is throwing him under the bus.


MCAS design or testing have not resulted in criminal or civil charges. Forkner was indicted for fraud, basically withholding information.

While the government certainly needed to walk away with an indictment, I really fail to see how Boeing’s leaders can influence the Department of Justice outside of withholding certain evidence.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
He made some extremely poor unprofessional wording choices in his IMs and E-mails, so Dave Calhoun is throwing him under the bus.

Having worked at a manufacturer, before anyone heard of the MAX or Forkner, I looked twice at every email and asked, “how could this look in a deposition, a headline and could I defend it?” Company got sued a few times over poorly thought out “guarantees”; promises and the like. I made sure I wasn’t part of it.

I agree Forkner is being made a scapegoat, but he sure didn't help himself. Mandatory annual business conduct training has been a part of my corporate life since the mid 80s. I presume that happens at Boeing just like all big corporations. There's no good way to have unguarded conversations. If you use company equipment you are subject to being recorded. If you use private equipment you are subject to charges of violating security. The company will always protect its interests first, which means if the spam hits the fan they will look for a scapegoat, and his own actions meant he was an ideal scapegoat.

sxf24 wrote:
While the government certainly needed to walk away with an indictment, I really fail to see how Boeing’s leaders can influence the Department of Justice outside of withholding certain evidence.

Personally, I don't know why the government is going after Forkner. They had made their agreement with Boeing and had got headlines in all the media outlets that made them look like they were doing their jobs, at least to the less informed and less cynical readers in the audience. They had what they wanted, going after Forkner in addition to penalizing Boeing seems to be overkill and could backfire if he gets acquitted. They may wish they had quit while they were ahead.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:11 pm

I guess Forkner is the low hanging fruit they believe is the easiest to get an conviction. Thing is, if the DPA is overturned, what happens then?

Interesting that a few days ago, when Deal was intervied by ST, any and all questions regarding MCAS on the MAX was a no go. Boeing PR folks were on hand to make sure.
 
sxf24
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
While the government certainly needed to walk away with an indictment, I really fail to see how Boeing’s leaders can influence the Department of Justice outside of withholding certain evidence.

Personally, I don't know why the government is going after Forkner. They had made their agreement with Boeing and had got headlines in all the media outlets that made them look like they were doing their jobs, at least to the less informed and less cynical readers in the audience. They had what they wanted, going after Forkner in addition to penalizing Boeing seems to be overkill and could backfire if he gets acquitted. They may wish they had quit while they were ahead.


I think there is a valid case against Forkner for the fraud he was indicted for. This should not be equated as holding Forkner responsible for larger accusations, such as existence/functionality of MCAS or the accidents.

There is a need for accountability, but I feel like many are still set on punishing Boeing.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 pm

Link to article by one of the prosecutors who is retired from North Texas office about the DOJ case against Boeing and Mark Forkner. It may be behind firewall.
https://apple.news/AiAB84qGuSFmx6He1p7GOng
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:10 pm

More interesting is the Linked article about the deferred prosecution agreement at: (May be behind firewall)

https://apple.news/AA6xPRSfhTA6CKGL86KzJAw
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:41 pm

Here is a better link to the second article (Does not appear to be behind firewall:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01 ... thing.html
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
Link to article by one of the prosecutors who is retired from North Texas office about the DOJ case against Boeing and Mark Forkner. It may be behind firewall.
https://apple.news/AiAB84qGuSFmx6He1p7GOng

TFA says:

But the truth, as Robison describes it, is that from a technical standpoint, there is no single, simple answer. The crashes were the result of accumulating errors and decisions made largely by Boeing executives and employees.

I don't agree. The single, simple answer is Boeing Engineering produced defective software. Proof is the airplane is now flying again after the software was fixed. Boeing's own admission of committing fraud and Forkner's role in that is a part of a carefully managed damage control effort.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 668
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:37 pm

Editorial in today's ST on holding Boeing accountable for the B737MAX fiasco.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/ed ... hos/?amp=1
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
I'm free to believe DoJ didn't do a very good job just like others are free to believe FAA didn't do a good job. The misconduct you find depends on what you are looking for, who's looking, and how hard they look for it. It's incongruous to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boobs.


So, it is " incongruous" to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boob? No, it is not. The DOJ investigation was conducted by the FBI. The FBI is where the best law in enforcement personnel go to work. They take the best and pay the best. People don't leave the FBI to go be a beat cop in Stillwater Oklahoma. The FAA is where you go when you can't get a job anywhere else. They are not the best and brightest in their field. If they were, they would work in the private sector and make 3x as much. So, when someone works for the FAA you have to wonder why?

Now, back to the DOJ doing their job!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... hp&pc=U531

The Justice Department told the court, however, that the family members are not crime victims. Department lawyers also said the settlement included compensation above what the law required.
 
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REDHL
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:44 am

A federal judge in Fort Worth has dropped 2 of 6 fraud charges against Forkner.

https://apnews.com/article/technology-b ... b33080d10d
 
MrBretz
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:16 pm

I read the story. Here’s a quote from it: “ A federal judge in Fort Worth on Tuesday dismissed, on technical grounds, counts that accused Mark A. Forkner of making and using “a materially false writing... concerning an aircraft part,” in violation of federal law.”

The judge said MCAS is not a “part”. It is software and hence intangible. That strikes me as funny. I spent my entire career working on intangible stuff.

Forkner still has 4 charges against him.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:30 pm

MrBretz wrote:
I read the story. Here’s a quote from it: “ A federal judge in Fort Worth on Tuesday dismissed, on technical grounds, counts that accused Mark A. Forkner of making and using “a materially false writing... concerning an aircraft part,” in violation of federal law.”

The judge said MCAS is not a “part”. It is software and hence intangible. That strikes me as funny. I spent my entire career working on intangible stuff.

Forkner still has 4 charges against him.


Yes, he does, and his lawyers have a lot of questions for the FAA. If the FAA refuses to allow their people to testify that gives him a little thing called reasonable doubt.

The DOT is also conducting an investigation. They too have a lot of questions for the FAA, they can't really stonewall their direct boss like they have been stonewalling Congress. Lots of answers will be coming soon.
 
CanukinUSA
Posts: 186
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:31 pm

The actual legal MEMORANDUM OPINION & ORDER from the North Texas court on the Forkner case can be found at the link below so that you can read it and decide your own conclusions:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USC ... 0268-0.pdf
 
National757
Posts: 490
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:29 am

Noted this trailer for a Netflix documentary on the 737 MAX fiasco that will premiere on February 18th. Very interested to see how this is covered by the traditional media types. Hopefully it will be an honest account of the whole situation.

DOWNFALL: The Case Against Boeing | Official Trailer | Netflix

https://youtu.be/vt-IJkUbAxY
 
CanukinUSA
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:33 pm

What will be interesting is how the producer will treat the Boeing Board of Directors including her cousin Caroline Kennedy who was on the Board for some of the 737 Max mess. The producer is not exactly totally independent from this issue.
 
IAHObserver
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Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:24 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
What will be interesting is how the producer will treat the Boeing Board of Directors including her cousin Caroline Kennedy who was on the Board for some of the 737 Max mess. The producer is not exactly totally independent from this issue.
Other than family ties how in the world did Caroline Kennedy wind up on the board at Boeing? She is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.
 
11C
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:34 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm free to believe DoJ didn't do a very good job just like others are free to believe FAA didn't do a good job. The misconduct you find depends on what you are looking for, who's looking, and how hard they look for it. It's incongruous to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boobs.


So, it is " incongruous" to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boob? No, it is not. The DOJ investigation was conducted by the FBI. The FBI is where the best law in enforcement personnel go to work. They take the best and pay the best. People don't leave the FBI to go be a beat cop in Stillwater Oklahoma. The FAA is where you go when you can't get a job anywhere else. They are not the best and brightest in their field. If they were, they would work in the private sector and make 3x as much. So, when someone works for the FAA you have to wonder why?

Now, back to the DOJ doing their job!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... hp&pc=U531

The Justice Department told the court, however, that the family members are not crime victims. Department lawyers also said the settlement included compensation above what the law required.


A generalization that broad, and sweeping is dangerous. I’m not ready to accept that the FAA is staffed entirely by those who couldn’t get a real job. That just sounds like an unfounded bias to me.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 4:41 pm

Caroline Kennedy resigned from the board of BA just over a year ago. I will look for the documentary.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:49 pm

IAHObserver wrote:
CanukinUSA wrote:
What will be interesting is how the producer will treat the Boeing Board of Directors including her cousin Caroline Kennedy who was on the Board for some of the 737 Max mess. The producer is not exactly totally independent from this issue.
Other than family ties how in the world did Caroline Kennedy wind up on the board at Boeing? She is not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.


Since when has exceptional intelligence, much less specific industry knowledge, been a requirement to sit on a BoD ?
That's like assuming all wealthy people are wealthy, because they are intelligent.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:03 pm

11C wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm free to believe DoJ didn't do a very good job just like others are free to believe FAA didn't do a good job. The misconduct you find depends on what you are looking for, who's looking, and how hard they look for it. It's incongruous to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boobs.


So, it is " incongruous" to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boob? No, it is not. The DOJ investigation was conducted by the FBI. The FBI is where the best law in enforcement personnel go to work. They take the best and pay the best. People don't leave the FBI to go be a beat cop in Stillwater Oklahoma. The FAA is where you go when you can't get a job anywhere else. They are not the best and brightest in their field. If they were, they would work in the private sector and make 3x as much. So, when someone works for the FAA you have to wonder why?

Now, back to the DOJ doing their job!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... hp&pc=U531

The Justice Department told the court, however, that the family members are not crime victims. Department lawyers also said the settlement included compensation above what the law required.


A generalization that broad, and sweeping is dangerous. I’m not ready to accept that the FAA is staffed entirely by those who couldn’t get a real job. That just sounds like an unfounded bias to me.


Like your unfounded bias that the DOJ is not capable of determining that there was no widespread corruption at Boeing?

My statement was not a broad generalization, it was an observation. I have worked with the FAA, I know there backgrounds, I know why they are where they are.

Those who can’t do, teach. Those who can’t teach, regulate. Those who can’t do any of that work for the FAA.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:33 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:

The FBI is where the best law in enforcement personnel go to work.


That is debatable, and essentially only your opinion

[/quote]They take the best and pay the best. People don't leave the FBI to go be a beat cop in Stillwater Oklahoma. The FAA is where you go when you can't get a job anywhere else. They are not the best and brightest in their field. If they were, they would work in the private sector and make 3x as much. So, when someone works for the FAA you have to wonder why?[/quote]

You seem to have a thing where you relate to what a person earns. Far from the truth indeed, but then I don't think you have the experience to know everything does not solely revolve around money. I, and most other people in aviation, certainly don't wonder 'why' anyone works for the FAA, or anyone else.......that seems to be a strange mindset or yourself.
 
11C
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:10 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
11C wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:

So, it is " incongruous" to believe DoJ has the best and the brightest while FAA have incompetent boob? No, it is not. The DOJ investigation was conducted by the FBI. The FBI is where the best law in enforcement personnel go to work. They take the best and pay the best. People don't leave the FBI to go be a beat cop in Stillwater Oklahoma. The FAA is where you go when you can't get a job anywhere else. They are not the best and brightest in their field. If they were, they would work in the private sector and make 3x as much. So, when someone works for the FAA you have to wonder why?

Now, back to the DOJ doing their job!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... hp&pc=U531



A generalization that broad, and sweeping is dangerous. I’m not ready to accept that the FAA is staffed entirely by those who couldn’t get a real job. That just sounds like an unfounded bias to me.


Like your unfounded bias that the DOJ is not capable of determining that there was no widespread corruption at Boeing?

My statement was not a broad generalization, it was an observation. I have worked with the FAA, I know there backgrounds, I know why they are where they are.

Those who can’t do, teach. Those who can’t teach, regulate. Those who can’t do any of that work for the FAA.


I made no mention of the DOJ, just your bias.
 
CanukinUSA
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:33 am

US National Public Radio has article with US Department of Justice Court filing on why it does not think 737 Crash Passengers are not victims under Crime Victims act. For details go to:
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/11/10801630 ... ng-crashes
 
hivue
Posts: 2183
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Feb 14, 2022 2:56 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
US National Public Radio has article with US Department of Justice Court filing on why it does not think 737 Crash Passengers are not victims under Crime Victims act. For details go to:
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/11/10801630 ... ng-crashes


I think your double negative has reversed what the DOJ is saying.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: Updated: Boeing's Fatal Flaw, former Chief Technical Pilot indicted

Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:14 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
US National Public Radio has article with US Department of Justice Court filing on why it does not think 737 Crash Passengers are not victims under Crime Victims act. For details go to:
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/11/10801630 ... ng-crashes


If you read the article is says why.

"The government's investigation, however, did not produce evidence that it believed would allow it to prove beyond a reasonable doubt what factors had caused the crashes of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302," the DOJ document states.

Essentially, the Justice Department is saying that without being able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the crashes were the direct result of a criminal act, the family members of those who died in the two crashes are not crime victims.

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