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InnsbruckFlyer
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Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:51 pm

Just wondering why OS has virtually no competition on trans-Atlantic flights from Vienna, with the exception of AC's flight to YYZ. Why wouldn't other airlines try to join the VIE market, like UA from EWR or IAD? Any thoughts?
 
dfw88
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:14 pm

UA and OS are both part of a transatlantic joint business agreement, along with AC, LH, and LX. It looks like the group decided to leave VIE transatlantic flying to OS, which is why you won't find UA on the route. If they did fly it it would be in concert, not competition, with OS's route. It could certainly happen, but for real competition you'd need either an LCC or AA or DL on the route. While any of them could, it appears that AA and DL don't see enough upside to justify a flight and are instead content to funnel traffic to VIE through their partner hubs as connections on BA, KL, or AF.
 
konrad
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:32 pm

Vienna is a very small transatlantic market. Without the OS feed from the Balkans and Eastern Europe it is virtually nonexistent. One exception is some small UN VIE-Washington traffic which is taken care of by the OS93/94.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:45 pm

konrad wrote:
Vienna is a very small transatlantic market. Without the OS feed from the Balkans and Eastern Europe it is virtually nonexistent. One exception is some small UN VIE-Washington traffic which is taken care of by the OS93/94.


Hard to call that an exception when the largest local markets from Vienna (pre-COVID) are NYC, Miami, LA and SF, not Washington.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:48 pm

Vienna is a fairly small transatlantic market. Historically, VIE has been a transit point to Eastern Europe and OS has an established feed at VIE to those points and beyond. Apart from a few other NGOs, there just isn't a consistently strong demand for sustained corporate travel. AC and OS are partners in Star, and I believe only AC flies VIE-YYZ at the moment. No need for UA to fly to VIE from either EWR or IAD as OS does it for them. The two airlines are in the same JV. I don't see AA or DL starting VIE service any time in the near future.

It's no coincidence OS flies to EWR (in addition to JFK) and IAD, as EWR, IAD, + ORD provides it with significant feed from UA.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:16 pm

Delta even with its wide European network tried and failed at Vienna.

Also probably pretty illustrative that OS even with its feed potential cant operates a JFK daily during the winter and its North America network has largely become seasonal.
OS for seemingly the last decade has struggled and been in restructuring mode of its intercontinental network. Likely a marginal operation at best, and more likely an ongoing loss maker.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:19 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
konrad wrote:
Vienna is a very small transatlantic market. Without the OS feed from the Balkans and Eastern Europe it is virtually nonexistent. One exception is some small UN VIE-Washington traffic which is taken care of by the OS93/94.


Hard to call that an exception when the largest local markets from Vienna (pre-COVID) are NYC, Miami, LA and SF, not Washington.

Largest doesn't mean big enough for the smallest unit of OS capacity with range.
 
FSDan
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:49 pm

DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:19 pm

Going back a ways, TWA tried NYC-VIE quite a few different times with VIE as a tag from FRA, AMS, BRU, ZRH at various intervals, as well as a code-share with OS via FRA and/or ZRH. Sometimes year round, sometimes seasonally. Never could quite make it stick.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:38 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Going back a ways, TWA tried NYC-VIE quite a few different times with VIE as a tag from FRA, AMS, BRU, ZRH at various intervals, as well as a code-share with OS via FRA and/or ZRH. Sometimes year round, sometimes seasonally. Never could quite make it stick.


I think VIE also operated very briefly for TWA as a tag on the JFK-GVA nonstop they flew, which was very short lived.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:38 pm

FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


ATH / Greece is not in Eastern Europe.
 
sxf24
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:16 am

FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


DL also flew FRA-VIE in the 90s as part of hub acquired from PA.
 
DETA737
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:39 am

Here's a video of a TWA 767-200ER in Vienna in 1995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAnB-SdAv7c
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:30 am

mercure1 wrote:
Delta even with its wide European network tried and failed at Vienna.

Also probably pretty illustrative that OS even with its feed potential cant operates a JFK daily during the winter and its North America network has largely become seasonal.
OS for seemingly the last decade has struggled and been in restructuring mode of its intercontinental network. Likely a marginal operation at best, and more likely an ongoing loss maker.


I don't know that this is accurate. Obviously in COVID times routes that would normally be operating aren't, but the core US network for OS (JFK, EWR, IAD, ORD) has always been year round. Winter is slow season for travel to/from Europe outside the holidays but OS still maintains their frequencies at EWR so why would it matter that they aren't operating JFK daily in the winter (and for the record they still do operate it alongside EWR during the winter).

OS has vacated LAX and MIA which were leisure routes that were relatively new in the first place. BOS never started because of COVID (I believe that would have been seasonal). And YUL was/is planned to be year round but hasn't operated through COVID - YYZ is operating now with AC and it's worth noting AC (in the JV with OS) only flies this route because OS left YYZ to operate YUL and BOS.

I think the OS long haul network is probably profitable because a) literally no nonstop competition and b) these flights feed a massive amount of traffic to OS' Eastern European network. I think the long haul operation is small enough that LH could have gotten rid of it years ago if it were loss making and replaced it with Eurowings or the JV could have just had UA and AC operate one or two flights from North America.
 
XRadar98
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:51 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


ATH / Greece is not in Eastern Europe.

So, I am learning here. Greece is not Eastern Europe, is it Southern then?

What is the cutoff?
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:45 am

The Austrian market isn't large enough to support many flights and as correctly pointed out by some (but not all) above, OS can maintain the transatlantic flights, but only because of VIE transit traffic. Remember many years ago before OS flew longhaul, VIE was usually a tag-on to another European city when operated by US carriers and the only (low frequency) nonstop flights were on Royal Jordanian & Tarom a few times a week to USA.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:06 pm

XRadar98 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


ATH / Greece is not in Eastern Europe.

So, I am learning here. Greece is not Eastern Europe, is it Southern then?

What is the cutoff?


Southern Europe.
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:44 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
XRadar98 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

ATH / Greece is not in Eastern Europe.

So, I am learning here. Greece is not Eastern Europe, is it Southern then?

What is the cutoff?


Southern Europe.

Geographically Greece is very much in Eastern Europe but politically it's not. They are further East than the former Yugoslavia and they have a long border with Bulgaria. A similar thing happens with Azerbaijan, Armenia, and even Israel who are not even in Europe and yet politically they align with Europe instead of Asia. Although one could argue that Azerbaijan and Armenia belong in Europe because they are in the Caucus region.

But anyways... Vienna is a small market but not an insignificant one. Having its home airline owned by LH certainly doesn't help. The only time I flew from the U.S. into VIE was on... you guessed it, LH. It's pretty darn difficult to compete with the LH group on TATL routes.
The other problem as far as leisure travel is concerned is that it is a lot cheaper to fly into MUC and rent a car and then go explore more of Austria and Bavaria rather than just visit Vienna. So the already smallish market to Austria gets split between VIE and MUC.
 
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ua900
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:27 pm

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Just wondering why OS has virtually no competition on trans-Atlantic flights from Vienna, with the exception of AC's flight to YYZ. Why wouldn't other airlines try to join the VIE market, like UA from EWR or IAD? Any thoughts?


1. A++ explains the relative absence of non-OS long haul *A TATL at VIE.
2. OS practially owns VIE, so Skyteam and oneworld won't use it as a hub or focus city. KL/AF works ok at VIE, as does IAG. But both of these get much weaker in Eastern Europe as their core is the UK, Benelux, France and Spain. These are all developed markets with good connectivity and a long standing tradition of their nationals to use KL/AF and IAG carriers and the same holds true for DACH and Eastern Europe where *A is stronger than in Western Europe.
3. VIE works extremely well as the hub for SE Europe. Without that traffic, VIE wouldn't be what it is. If OS does one thing really well besides their coffee and chef in business class, it's excellent coverage of SE Europe. Much the way the old Sabena excelled in connecting Belgium to Africa.

XRadar98 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


ATH / Greece is not in Eastern Europe.

So, I am learning here. Greece is not Eastern Europe, is it Southern then?

What is the cutoff?


For most people, Eastern Europe = Former Warsaw pact countries, so the cutoff to the south would generally be the borders between Hungary / Romania and ex-Jugoslavia on the one hand and the border between Bulgaria and Greece / Turkey on the other hand. Aside from considering Greece as Southern Europe, Club Med is also frequently used, culturally much more fitting in my view. :)

FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


And that made sense at the time with OK at PRG and RO at OTP being much bigger than today, along with hopes that SU connections might work well for DL. But all these markets ended up seeing massive disruptions by ULCCs, thus destroying the type of feed needed to ultimately sustain these flights.

OzarkD9S wrote:
Going back a ways, TWA tried NYC-VIE quite a few different times with VIE as a tag from FRA, AMS, BRU, ZRH at various intervals, as well as a code-share with OS via FRA and/or ZRH. Sometimes year round, sometimes seasonally. Never could quite make it stick.


In VIE, feed really matters, it's on par with FRA when it comes to that.

O&D alone isn't enough to make VIE work, their culture and their economy is more like DUS, you won't stay a stranger for very long. Not on par with say ZRH as this neutral playground / meeting place that sees money come in from all directions.
 
FSDan
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:32 pm

ua900 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DL flew ATL-VIE briefly in the late 2000s. That was back in the "Delta dartboard" days when the airline still flew fairly extensively to Eastern Europe (PRG, BUD, ATH, OTP, KBP, SVO).


And that made sense at the time with OK at PRG and RO at OTP being much bigger than today, along with hopes that SU connections might work well for DL. But all these markets ended up seeing massive disruptions by ULCCs, thus destroying the type of feed needed to ultimately sustain these flights.


At some point DL also upped their standards for long haul profitability, and cut a bunch of these routes that were heavily VFR and lower-yielding.
 
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ua900
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Re: Austrian Trans-Atlantic Competition

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:58 pm

FSDan wrote:

At some point DL also upped their standards for long haul profitability, and cut a bunch of these routes that were heavily VFR and lower-yielding.


Quite right. With OK being on-off for PRG-NYC, the sentiment at the time might have been to leave the route to them for example. And as you said correctly, it was a bet on DLs part when they established these routes.

Economic growth in the Czech Republic was comparable to Poland, so in a parallel universe perhaps OK could have been as successful with TATL as LO was. For some reason PRG stayed more of a VFR / tourist destination a la TXL instead of becoming more like LO's WAW hub, which might be small compared to FRA or VIE, but certainly enables LO to survive and be a reasonably good alliance partner, as much as LH Group lets them. If OK could have done the same at PRG, IMO they would have turned into a real asset for DL as alliances go, with a much stronger performance. What happened with RO is somewhat similar, they had potential and could have been a good alliance partner for DL as well had history been different.

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