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vfw614
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Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:05 am

We all know countless examples of airports that have suffered massively from an airline dominating the airport going bancrupt or changing strategy (think of places like St. Louis, Cleveland, Cincinatti in the US or Berlin, Clermont-Ferrand or Southampton in Europe).

But how about (larger) airports that have lost a significant part of their route network at one point or another in their history because alternative ground transport - railway lines, highways, bridges, tunnels - improved massively? There are, of course, quite a few airports where new road/rail links massively impacted passenger numbers on a specific route (the most prominent example appears to be France where at some airports the TGV HSR network resulted in point-to-point services to Paris disappearing or getting greatly reduced), but I am interested in airports where improved ground structure had an impact on the route network, not just on a specific route. I can only think of three examples:

Copenhagen: I recently came across the timetable of Copenhagen from 1996 which was the year immediately before the bridges/tunnels nowadays linking the Danish islands of Zealand and Funen (Sotrebelt bridge) and - somewhat later in 2000 - Denmark and Sweden (Oresund bridge) opened. Looking at the timetable, there were lots of destinations in Denmark and Sweden that have since disappeared as they were no longer viable. Here is a link to the brilliant departedflights website that has the 1996 OAG timetable: http://www.departedflights.com/CPH96intro.html

Malmoe: In a similar way, Malmoe airport lost almost all non-domestic destinations after the Oresund bridge opened in 2000 as it became easier to get to CPH airport from Malmoe downtown than to the city's own airport (I took a flight from MMX just a month after the bridge opened and already by then it had become quite a different place...).

Taipei Songshan: ...suffered spectacularly from Taiwan's new HSR network, wiping out alomost the entire mainland domestic network (today, there is just a handful of routes left to the two east coast airports of Hualien and Taitung) including a route that once was one of the busiest air routes in the world (Taipei - Kaoshiung).

Erfurt: Another example, albeit on a much smaller scale, is Erfurt in Germany which had a dozen domestic air routes with commuter aircraft in the early 1990s. When first highways and then rail links greatly improved, on route after the other disappeared, with the last domestic route closing in 2010.

Are there other examples?
Last edited by vfw614 on Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Noshow
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:12 am

In Germany a new high speed train link (ICE Schnellstrecke Köln-Rhein-Main) has shortened travel times to Frankfurt airport pretty much. So from the north and the populated Ruhr valley instead of flying from Düsseldorf or Cologne going to Frankfurt Airport Terminal by train (50 minutes from Cologne) can be more comfortable. A similar effect can be seen from the south and Stuttgart and Mannheim to Frankfurt Airport Terminal. The trains can even be "booked" with airline tickets and Lufthansa even has own "flight numbers" on certain trains.

In Korea high speed trains seem to have killed domestic flights except for Seoul Busan and holiday flights. France has a good TGV system that is quite competitive on many routes. But not on others. They still want to politically abandon domestic flights.
 
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vfw614
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:24 am

I tend to disagree about the impact of HSR in Germany. It has had some impact, but it did not really alter the route map at airports like CGN, DUS or STR as it mainly impacted the feeder route to FRA (gone at CGN and somewhat, but not massively reduced at DUS and STR). When the HSR line opened in 2002, CGN was in the beginning of a transition to a LCC "hub" which was the reason why Lufthansa gave up the European routes it served from there with small regional jets (it had little to do with the new HSR.
 
hitower3
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:35 am

One example from Austria: The connection between Linz and Vienna was dropped after the high speed rail connection was opened a few years ago.
It's likely that in a few years from now, also Salzburg-VIE and Graz-VIE will shift towards HSR connection.

Hendric
 
dstc47
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:46 am

Ireland was a late developer of a number of regional airports, which supported both domestic and some overseas flights.

Economic conditions, and to a degree improved road transport, have led to the closure of all commercial scheduled passenger traffic at Galway, Sligo and Waterford Airports.
(Waterford is where Ryanair once started their operations).
 
AA737-823
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:04 am

The first thing that came to my mind immediately was all of Western Taiwan.
But I see you've already included it!
I'm obviously an avgeek, but I've ridden THSR both in business class and in economy, and I'm here to say it's a very pleasant experience.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:53 am

Not just Erfurt. In the 90s and early 2000s, there was a much denser regional network across Europe. Most of that has disappeared, even large RJs like the CR9 and E175 are becoming rare. In Germany alone there are RLG, FMO, ERF, LHA, ZQW, SCN, AGB, SZW, MHG, LBC, KEL (and probably some more) that have lost most or all of their scheduled routes. Many others are in financial trouble.
Passengers nowadays simply take a train or their car to the closest large airport. One of the largest beneficiaries is probably BER, which increasingly collects passengers from all of eastern Germany and parts of western Poland.

Similar effects are visible in the US as well.

European HSR has impacted the gauge and frequency between many city pairs, but hasn't actually killed that many routes. For example, there are still flights between London and Paris even though the majority of passengers travels by train.
Same in Japan, where the demand for domestic widebodies shrank as the Shinkansen network grew.
 
airbazar
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:17 pm

hitower3 wrote:
One example from Austria: The connection between Linz and Vienna was dropped after the high speed rail connection was opened a few years ago.
It's likely that in a few years from now, also Salzburg-VIE and Graz-VIE will shift towards HSR connection.

Even without HSR, SZG-VIE is already mostly train (or car). I think that currently there are no domestic flights in and out of SZG but even before the pandemic there was very little domestic travel on this route. OS likely used it primarily as a feeder for connections.
 
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CARST
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:21 pm

vfw614 wrote:
I tend to disagree about the impact of HSR in Germany. It has had some impact, but it did not really alter the route map at airports like CGN, DUS or STR as it mainly impacted the feeder route to FRA (gone at CGN and somewhat, but not massively reduced at DUS and STR). When the HSR line opened in 2002, CGN was in the beginning of a transition to a LCC "hub" which was the reason why Lufthansa gave up the European routes it served from there with small regional jets (it had little to do with the new HSR.


Basically the opening of the Berlin - Hamburg HSR link ended the flights between Berlin and Hamburg. And this was a major route within Germany for decades. In the Cold War it was flown by PanAm IGS and BA/DeutscheBA I think, later Lufthansa and AirBerlin, perhaps even the original standalone EuroWings to THF, but not sure.
 
blandy62
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:22 pm

TSA-KHH, GMP-PUS definitely come in mind. A lot of regional airports in France and Germany would surely be bigger with high speed rail.
 
blandy62
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:23 pm

TSA-KHH, GMP-PUS definitely come in mind. A lot of regional airports in France and Germany would surely be bigger without high speed rail.
Last edited by blandy62 on Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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CARST
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:25 pm

While in Europe, Japan and Korea HSR had a huge impact, it would be interesting to know how the situation is in other countries. Like did the opening of the Northeast Corridor and arrival of TGV trains (Acela Express) change air travel behaviour in the Northeast US between Boston, New York and Washington?
 
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Phen
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:39 pm

dstc47 wrote:
Ireland was a late developer of a number of regional airports, which supported both domestic and some overseas flights.

Economic conditions, and to a degree improved road transport, have led to the closure of all commercial scheduled passenger traffic at Galway, Sligo and Waterford Airports.
(Waterford is where Ryanair once started their operations).

Indeed Ryanair used to fly between Dublin and Cork (Ireland's second city) but since the opening of the motorway between Dublin and Cork that route hasn't been flown in over 10 years if I am correct. There has always been a direct rail link between Dublin and Cork but it is slow by continental European standards so it is often quicker to drive.
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:46 pm

More a Europe/Asia thing than US

Even post Acela, the LGA shuttles run with smaller equipment and certainly high frequency service to places like BOS from JFK and EWR.

Americans are just more car/air oriented than train oriented and Acela is lacking in the HSR category

It will be interesting to see what happens when the HSR opens in MCO shortly.

That is really the only intermodal situation I can think of in the US and it is located (ironically) in car-friendly Florida.
 
blockski
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:19 pm

In 2002, the number one O/D market from DCA was LGA, with 1.3m annual passengers. Acela started service in December, 2000.

In 2019, LGA wasn't even in the top ten. In 2018, it was number ten - with just 422k annual passengers.

Now, DCA's number one O/D market is BOS, and has been since ~2011. That's the kind of market where if the US was able to get real HSR along the NEC, you'd likely see that market drop as well.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:20 pm

TXL and THF - both went from the easiest way in and out of town to closed.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:32 pm

In France, I can think of Avignon, Lannion and Strasbourg amongst others which have been TGV-ised. Maybe also Metz-Nancy and Angouleme as well
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:38 pm

I don't think I would follow the OP in arguing that 'airports suffered.' The routes served evolved into greater fractions of long distance flying. That seems sensible enough. There's no reason to see networks cast in amber, expecting them to be unchanged for multiple decades. Comparison to regulated markets of fifty years ago just doesn't work.

We don't see U.S. examples because the U.S. doesn't want to subsidize HSR construction and operation to the same degreed found in Germany and France (and, spending EU development funds, Spain).

CARST wrote:
While in Europe, Japan and Korea HSR had a huge impact, it would be interesting to know how the situation is in other countries. Like did the opening of the Northeast Corridor and arrival of TGV trains (Acela Express) change air travel behaviour in the Northeast US between Boston, New York and Washington?


It's been a few years since I've seen the data but Amtrak had become the #1 way to travel NYC-BOS/WAS. Yet BOS/DCA/LGA didn't exactly wither to nothing, did they?
 
ikramerica
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:56 pm

blockski wrote:
In 2002, the number one O/D market from DCA was LGA, with 1.3m annual passengers. Acela started service in December, 2000.

In 2019, LGA wasn't even in the top ten. In 2018, it was number ten - with just 422k annual passengers.

Now, DCA's number one O/D market is BOS, and has been since ~2011. That's the kind of market where if the US was able to get real HSR along the NEC, you'd likely see that market drop as well.

But HSR just wouldn’t be possible. The time it would take to cross the Manhattan area at non-HS would eat dramatically into the efficiency. It’s not like the train would bypass Manhattan. So the DC-BOS flights are here to stay.
 
ScottB
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
We don't see U.S. examples because the U.S. doesn't want to subsidize HSR construction and operation to the same degreed found in Germany and France (and, spending EU development funds, Spain).


It isn't just about the money, but also the political will to deal with neighbors and people/businesses which would be displaced. California is spending tens of billions of dollars on HSR which will not connect the two major metros in the state -- because there is no way the government will find a politically acceptable route into Los Angeles or San Francisco. If the train even does make it into those cities, it will operate at conventional rail speeds on existing lines and the trip time will be uncompetitive with flying.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:06 pm

CARST wrote:
While in Europe, Japan and Korea HSR had a huge impact, it would be interesting to know how the situation is in other countries. Like did the opening of the Northeast Corridor and arrival of TGV trains (Acela Express) change air travel behaviour in the Northeast US between Boston, New York and Washington?

For the NEC, considering there is still 30 flights a day between NYC and DC and 18 flights between BOS and DC. Not much impact. Sadly the Acela is still too slow but the seating is at least better.
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:25 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:

TXL and THF - both went from the easiest way in and out of town to closed.


That was a political decision, rather than access related.
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:28 pm

Alb and nyc
 
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vfw614
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:32 pm

Thanks for the input so far.

Just to clarify: I am not insinuating that the airports in question sort of "went under", Of course most of them still thrived as international flights and low cost carriers compensated the loss of the traditional routes. In the examples given in my first post, CPH has thrived in the past two decades, of course, and the Taiwanese airports at least partly off-set the losses through flights to mainland China. MMX has at least attracted some LCC flights.

What I am interested in are airports that experienced a massive change to their destination portfolio as a result of a largish number of destinations (not just a single oute) either disappearing or massively shrinking because of new traffic systems (rail or road) being built .

To be honest, I don't think that other than the Korean example, any of the airports mentioned upthread are really comparable to my initial examples. Mostly a specific city pair taking a hit because of a specific HSR line being opened that left the rest of the destination unaffected.
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
More a Europe/Asia thing than US

Even post Acela, the LGA shuttles run with smaller equipment and certainly high frequency service to places like BOS from JFK and EWR.

Americans are just more car/air oriented than train oriented and Acela is lacking in the HSR category

It will be interesting to see what happens when the HSR opens in MCO shortly.

That is really the only intermodal situation I can think of in the US and it is located (ironically) in car-friendly Florida.


Bright line is not HSR.
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:59 pm

MAD-BCN lost a lot of traffic to HSR, as well as PAR-LON presumably. BRU-AMS and BRU-CDG are feeders only these days. And what about Milan-Rome?

Arguably ENS suffered from a new direct rail link to AMS that opened in 1993 (not HSR though), that may have contributed to its demise. On the other hand, RTM does not seem to have suffered from the opening of the HSR between Rotterdam and AMS (just 20-25 minutes by train).
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:22 pm

ScottB wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
We don't see U.S. examples because the U.S. doesn't want to subsidize HSR construction and operation to the same degreed found in Germany and France (and, spending EU development funds, Spain).


It isn't just about the money, but also the political will to deal with neighbors and people/businesses which would be displaced. California is spending tens of billions of dollars on HSR which will not connect the two major metros in the state -- because there is no way the government will find a politically acceptable route into Los Angeles or San Francisco. If the train even does make it into those cities, it will operate at conventional rail speeds on existing lines and the trip time will be uncompetitive with flying.


Even assuming money and NIMBYs were no object, I'm not sure that a hypothetical Los Angeles-San Francisco HSR link would affect air travel demand all that much. It would be like Los Angeles-San Diego is now vis a vis rail (although to San Diego, the competition for O&D passengers is car, not air). For downtown-downtown specifically, rail is competitive. But for the very large fraction of trips that are not downtown-downtown, it isn't.
 
blockski
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:39 pm

ikramerica wrote:
blockski wrote:
In 2002, the number one O/D market from DCA was LGA, with 1.3m annual passengers. Acela started service in December, 2000.

In 2019, LGA wasn't even in the top ten. In 2018, it was number ten - with just 422k annual passengers.

Now, DCA's number one O/D market is BOS, and has been since ~2011. That's the kind of market where if the US was able to get real HSR along the NEC, you'd likely see that market drop as well.

But HSR just wouldn’t be possible. The time it would take to cross the Manhattan area at non-HS would eat dramatically into the efficiency. It’s not like the train would bypass Manhattan. So the DC-BOS flights are here to stay.


Of course the flights are here (just like DCA-LGA flights are still here).

HSR is absolutely possible. Is it likely? That's another question. The point, however, of the Acela is that even a modest improvement and mediocre rail network can dramatically change the air market between the cities.

If you had world-class HSR on the corridor, you could do DC to Boston in 3-4 hours, and that time would absolutely eat into the air travel between the cities. You don't need the train to bypass Manhattan to achieve this. That's one of the benefits of rail travel - adding stops doesn't introduce a huge time penalty. The dominant markets for a NEC HSR line wouldn't be travel from DC to Boston, it would be (just like today) DC to NYC and NYC to BOS, but merely by enabling the journey, you'd likely induce traffic to make the switch for a variety of reasons.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:50 pm

ScottB wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
We don't see U.S. examples because the U.S. doesn't want to subsidize HSR construction and operation to the same degreed found in Germany and France (and, spending EU development funds, Spain).


It isn't just about the money, but also the political will to deal with neighbors and people/businesses which would be displaced. California is spending tens of billions of dollars on HSR which will not connect the two major metros in the state -- because there is no way the government will find a politically acceptable route into Los Angeles or San Francisco. If the train even does make it into those cities, it will operate at conventional rail speeds on existing lines and the trip time will be uncompetitive with flying.

Construction cost per mile of HSR in the US is nearly twice as high as in Europe (where the UK is more expensive than continental Europe), and nearly three times as expensive as in China.
China’s high speed rail with a maximum speed of 350 km/h has a typical infrastructure unit cost of about US$ 17-21m per km, with a high ratio of viaducts and tunnels, as compared with US$25-39 m per km in Europe and as high as US$ 56m per km currently estimated in California.

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press ... -countries
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:50 pm

PVD Would be much busier today had the Ted Williams tunnel to BOS not been constructed. Also LGA and JFK service would have likely been retained if not for the Acela (Providence was the #11 busiest station for Amtrak in 2019 with 767,000 passengers).
 
CMA727
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:25 pm

Mexico City to Acapulco with the 1993 openning of the new "Autopista del Sol" toll highway. Before that MEX-ACA-MEX was a real cash machine for mexican airlines.
 
ScottB
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:30 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
(Providence was the #11 busiest station for Amtrak in 2019 with 767,000 passengers).


A fair number of those Providence passengers are commuting to/from Boston, though. The Amtrak monthly pass (which lets you use the Northeast Regional trains) is only marginally more expensive than an MBTA Zone 8 pass and the trip is half an hour faster.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:37 pm

Should be interesting to see what Texas Central Railway HSR does to DAL-HOU, DAL-CLL, and HOU-CLL, when it opens in 2026.

Project cost is $20B for a 400 km line, which works out to $50M/km.

Source: https://www.texascentral.com/facts/
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:45 pm

N757ST wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
More a Europe/Asia thing than US

Even post Acela, the LGA shuttles run with smaller equipment and certainly high frequency service to places like BOS from JFK and EWR.

Americans are just more car/air oriented than train oriented and Acela is lacking in the HSR category

It will be interesting to see what happens when the HSR opens in MCO shortly.

That is really the only intermodal situation I can think of in the US and it is located (ironically) in car-friendly Florida.


Bright line is not HSR.


125 mph from Palm Beach to MCO.

Acela does 150 for a whopping 30 miles in the NEC.

I would say Brightline will be the best we have in the US when it opens shortly (provided projections come to fruition)
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
We don't see U.S. examples because the U.S. doesn't want to subsidize HSR construction and operation to the same degreed found in Germany and France (and, spending EU development funds, Spain).


It isn't just about the money, but also the political will to deal with neighbors and people/businesses which would be displaced. California is spending tens of billions of dollars on HSR which will not connect the two major metros in the state -- because there is no way the government will find a politically acceptable route into Los Angeles or San Francisco. If the train even does make it into those cities, it will operate at conventional rail speeds on existing lines and the trip time will be uncompetitive with flying.


Even assuming money and NIMBYs were no object, I'm not sure that a hypothetical Los Angeles-San Francisco HSR link would affect air travel demand all that much. It would be like Los Angeles-San Diego is now vis a vis rail (although to San Diego, the competition for O&D passengers is car, not air). For downtown-downtown specifically, rail is competitive. But for the very large fraction of trips that are not downtown-downtown, it isn't.



And that is the problem in the US for HSR…a nation of low density suburbs
 
ScottB
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:18 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
And that is the problem in the US for HSR…a nation of low density suburbs


Even in the Northeast Corridor, a region with adequate density for HSR, the cost of building a new HSR corridor between Boston and Washington, D.C. would be measured in the hundreds of billions of dollars. A new pair of tunnels under the Hudson to connect New Jersey to Penn Station will run north of $10 billion.
 
hpff
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:23 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
And that is the problem in the US for HSR…a nation of low density suburbs


I think it's really more distances than anything else - in the distance between LAX and SFO (which really are one of the logical places for HSR in the US) you can get almost all the way across most European countries, or more, making it more economical to develop road and air transport than passenger train transport. The US would have lots of airports fitting the OP's definition as the milk runs would have given smaller cities passenger service under regulation especially in the western US.

I can think of a number of destinations around the globe who have lost air transport links for one reason or another but not for reasons related to the better connection of road//rail transport links as the Malmö and Korea situations are fairly unique.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:34 pm

The thing is, will it also help?

In the US, the NEC doesn't really connect airports - only EWR (arguably) and BWI are really served. Otherwise it goes city center to city center. That takes away travel between those pairs, but no other routes.

If in fact rail served airports, yes it could potentially take away those city pair connections, but then it also would allow airlines to service many more smaller cities that they really can't economically serve with aircraft. It is an extra leg, but then you can reach smaller markets. This would be a great help in many parts of the mid west where the cities themselves are too small for unsubsidized air service, but a true high-speed rail connection could provide a way to get to the larger airports.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:13 pm

ScottB wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
(Providence was the #11 busiest station for Amtrak in 2019 with 767,000 passengers).


A fair number of those Providence passengers are commuting to/from Boston, though. The Amtrak monthly pass (which lets you use the Northeast Regional trains) is only marginally more expensive than an MBTA Zone 8 pass and the trip is half an hour faster.

There's only one train northbound in the morning that gets you to Boston before 10am and its routinely delayed, so the vast majority of those are southbound. From my experience every morning weekday Acela departure from Providence boards at least 50 people (pre covid)
 
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:23 pm

vfw614 wrote:
We all know countless examples of airports that have suffered massively from an airline dominating the airport going bancrupt or changing strategy (think of places like St. Louis, Cleveland, Cincinatti in the US or Berlin, Clermont-Ferrand or Southampton in Europe).

But how about (larger) airports that have lost a significant part of their route network at one point or another in their history because alternative ground transport - railway lines, highways, bridges, tunnels - improved massively? There are, of course, quite a few airports where new road/rail links massively impacted passenger numbers on a specific route (the most prominent example appears to be France where at some airports the TGV HSR network resulted in point-to-point services to Paris disappearing or getting greatly reduced), but I am interested in airports where improved ground structure had an impact on the route network, not just on a specific route. I can only think of three examples:

Copenhagen: I recently came across the timetable of Copenhagen from 1996 which was the year immediately before the bridges/tunnels nowadays linking the Danish islands of Zealand and Funen (Sotrebelt bridge) and - somewhat later in 2000 - Denmark and Sweden (Oresund bridge) opened. Looking at the timetable, there were lots of destinations in Denmark and Sweden that have since disappeared as they were no longer viable. Here is a link to the brilliant departedflights website that has the 1996 OAG timetable: http://www.departedflights.com/CPH96intro.html

Malmoe: In a similar way, Malmoe airport lost almost all non-domestic destinations after the Oresund bridge opened in 2000 as it became easier to get to CPH airport from Malmoe downtown than to the city's own airport (I took a flight from MMX just a month after the bridge opened and already by then it had become quite a different place...).


Copenhagen and Malmö both where affected by the Öresund bridge. But that was not the only thing. Improved rail infrastructure in Sweden also was a reason. I.e. the rail link to ARN and decreased train travel times to Stockholm.

vfw614 wrote:
Are there other examples?


Brussels? For an airport in the de facto capital of the EU it seems a bit small. Maybe since there are direct high speed trains to AMS?
 
Happytycho
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Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:30 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
N757ST wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
More a Europe/Asia thing than US

Even post Acela, the LGA shuttles run with smaller equipment and certainly high frequency service to places like BOS from JFK and EWR.

Americans are just more car/air oriented than train oriented and Acela is lacking in the HSR category

It will be interesting to see what happens when the HSR opens in MCO shortly.

That is really the only intermodal situation I can think of in the US and it is located (ironically) in car-friendly Florida.


Bright line is not HSR.


125 mph from Palm Beach to MCO.

Acela does 150 for a whopping 30 miles in the NEC.

I would say Brightline will be the best we have in the US when it opens shortly (provided projections come to fruition)

125 mph from MCO to Cocoa, 110 mph from Cocoa to West Palm Beach, and 79 mph from West Palm Beach to Miami. Ultimately, the average speed from MCO to Miami isn't going to be much better than the average speed of the Acela on DC-NYC or NYC-BOS.

I'm incredibly excited about what Brightline is doing and what it could mean for the future of rail transportation in the US, but their Florida project is definitely not high speed rail by any conventional definition.

And for the topic of this thread, I don't think Brightline will have much of an impact on MCO or MIA because both have most of their flights to outside Florida.
 
mxaxai
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Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:42 pm

Bostrom wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Are there other examples?


Brussels? For an airport in the de facto capital of the EU it seems a bit small. Maybe since there are direct high speed trains to AMS?

There are also high speed trains to CDG (1:35h) and FRA (2:52h).
 
blockski
Posts: 794
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:39 pm

Happytycho wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
N757ST wrote:

Bright line is not HSR.


125 mph from Palm Beach to MCO.

Acela does 150 for a whopping 30 miles in the NEC.

I would say Brightline will be the best we have in the US when it opens shortly (provided projections come to fruition)

125 mph from MCO to Cocoa, 110 mph from Cocoa to West Palm Beach, and 79 mph from West Palm Beach to Miami. Ultimately, the average speed from MCO to Miami isn't going to be much better than the average speed of the Acela on DC-NYC or NYC-BOS.

I'm incredibly excited about what Brightline is doing and what it could mean for the future of rail transportation in the US, but their Florida project is definitely not high speed rail by any conventional definition.

And for the topic of this thread, I don't think Brightline will have much of an impact on MCO or MIA because both have most of their flights to outside Florida.


The broader point is that you don't need high speed rail to change air travel patterns.

It's certainly not as if Brightline will displace any particular airport's overall traffic. But it absolutely can (and likely will) shape the travel patterns in that area.

Just eyeballing it from Flightaware, there were 9 flights between MCO and FLL on Monday; 7 between MCO and MIA;

The advantage that rail offers is frequency - before the pandemic, Brightline was operating 16 trains a day on a nice clockface schedule.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3380
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:49 pm

Maybe someone will know, but back in 2018/19 I was doing a lot of Venice - Florence - Rome trips via the fantastic rail system, before the advent of HSR there, were there a lot of flights ?
 
myki
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:31 pm

Buyantukhaa wrote:
MAD-BCN lost a lot of traffic to HSR

Using this as an example, and no I don't have the answer, but is there somewhere like MAD or BCN that originally would've seen a downturn in flights, but has eventually seen this replaced with more flights from further afield which there wouldn't have been the space for previously?
 
cloudboy
Posts: 1142
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:38 pm

blockski wrote:
Happytycho wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:

125 mph from Palm Beach to MCO.

Acela does 150 for a whopping 30 miles in the NEC.

I would say Brightline will be the best we have in the US when it opens shortly (provided projections come to fruition)

125 mph from MCO to Cocoa, 110 mph from Cocoa to West Palm Beach, and 79 mph from West Palm Beach to Miami. Ultimately, the average speed from MCO to Miami isn't going to be much better than the average speed of the Acela on DC-NYC or NYC-BOS.

I'm incredibly excited about what Brightline is doing and what it could mean for the future of rail transportation in the US, but their Florida project is definitely not high speed rail by any conventional definition.

And for the topic of this thread, I don't think Brightline will have much of an impact on MCO or MIA because both have most of their flights to outside Florida.


The broader point is that you don't need high speed rail to change air travel patterns.

It's certainly not as if Brightline will displace any particular airport's overall traffic. But it absolutely can (and likely will) shape the travel patterns in that area.

Just eyeballing it from Flightaware, there were 9 flights between MCO and FLL on Monday; 7 between MCO and MIA;

The advantage that rail offers is frequency - before the pandemic, Brightline was operating 16 trains a day on a nice clockface schedule.


What Brightline is going to do in Florida is shape both local tourism as well as European tourism to the area. Americans don't take long vacations. So a trip to Orlando is going to be a different trip than one to the southeast coast. But, for Europeans who spend a couple or more weeks on vacation, they might fly into Miami, then take the train to Orlando for a few days, then back down to Miami. This might end up reshaping Florida routes to Europe - with more open jaw flights.
 
Ionosphere
Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: Airports That Have Suffered From Improved Road / Rail Infrastructure

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:59 pm

Manchester, NH (MHT was negatively impacted by the completion of a major construction project in Boston. The project made it easier to get to BOS. Previously passengers saw Manchester as a cheaper and less stressful option to Boston. Southwest also started BOS service in 2009. Since 2006 pax numbers have dropped. In 2017 they reached 1998 passenger levels. Many airlines have cut back service at MHT.

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