A350 deliveries will have dimmable windows from next year and it will be standard on all aircraft. I personally love dimmable windows but I know it’s like marmite. Either you really like it or you really hate it.

Thoughts?

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 56962?s=21

Opus99 wrote:

A350 deliveries will have dimmable windows from next year and it will be standard on all aircraft. I personally love dimmable windows but I know it’s like marmite. Either you really like it or you really hate it.

You are right. Good analogy. It is like Marmite / Vegemite. 90% of the population really hates it - me included.

It is not the dimmed windows per se, it is the fact, that - depending on the airline - the crew has the control if you can look out of the window or not.

When I fly, I want a window seat, if ever available. And why? because I want to look out of the window! I don't want, that anyone else controls the shaders or the dimmable windows. Period.

I love them by design but hate the fact sometimes I'm forced to look through a completely dimmed glass when flying.
I paid for a window seat to be able to see through it.
Somebody that wants to sleep can put a mask on (already can hear the dumb argument).

I avoided booking 787 flights because of those ridiculous windows until I realized Air France and AA just have bad crews that think sleeping until 11 AM local time is very cool and okay. Some carriers/crews are a lot better than others. When managed properly they are much better than conventional windows. As with new any new 'convenience' technology application is more important than the features.

I do wonder how safe it is to have nearly opaque windows that cannot be undone except by the crew. It's no different than military transports but regular people don't fly around on military craft for a reason...

N867DA wrote:

I do wonder how safe it is to have nearly opaque windows that cannot be undone except by the crew. It's no different than military transports but regular people don't fly around on military craft for a reason...

Safety-wise the windows probably ought to be locked at "full open" from engine start to 10,000 feet and from top of descent to engines off. But no carrier of which I am aware does that.

I flew the 787 from Chicago to Honolulu and they had the windows locked dark from just after takeoff until we were actually on the ground. It drove my mad. It literally begs the question: why have windows at all? I won't fly on 787s now unless I have some way to know, for certain, that I'll be able to control the window myself.

I have never in my experience had the Windows locked on my 787 experience. I don’t think I’ve flown with an airline that does that.

The windows do automatically “clear” on the 787 when you descend through 10,000 feet but unless the crew lock them clear at that time a pax can darken them again. I’m sure the 350 will be similar. Not all carriers require windows to be open/clear for take off and landing though.

The inevitable has happened! Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future.

Heinkel wrote:

Opus99 wrote:

A350 deliveries will have dimmable windows from next year and it will be standard on all aircraft. I personally love dimmable windows but I know it’s like marmite. Either you really like it or you really hate it.

You are right. Good analogy. It is like Marmite / Vegemite. 90% of the population really hates it - me included.

It is not the dimmed windows per se, it is the fact, that - depending on the airline - the crew has the control if you can look out of the window or not.

When I fly, I want a window seat, if ever available. And why? because I want to look out of the window! I don't want, that anyone else controls the shaders or the dimmable windows. Period.

Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.

L0VE2FLY wrote:

The inevitable has happened! Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future.

Heinkel wrote:

Opus99 wrote:

A350 deliveries will have dimmable windows from next year and it will be standard on all aircraft. I personally love dimmable windows but I know it’s like marmite. Either you really like it or you really hate it.

You are right. Good analogy. It is like Marmite / Vegemite. 90% of the population really hates it - me included.

It is not the dimmed windows per se, it is the fact, that - depending on the airline - the crew has the control if you can look out of the window or not.

When I fly, I want a window seat, if ever available. And why? because I want to look out of the window! I don't want, that anyone else controls the shaders or the dimmable windows. Period.

Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.

What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!

I've been on many long haul flights where the cabin crew ordered the old school window shades to be closed for the entire flight. The most irritating of these for me was on an MH flight from LHR to KUL. Any time someone opened a shade, the crew immediately appeared to tell them to close it again. Eventually, during the descent, all window shades were required to be opened again.

At least with the new windows, even when they are fully darkened, there is still at least some slight view outside as the don't seem to darken 100% fully.

Opus99 wrote:

I have never in my experience had the Windows locked on my 787 experience. I don’t think I’ve flown with an airline that does that.

What airlines are you flying with? US and CA domestics seem to have been left at the passengers discretion, and BA / VS long haul doesn't lock em (yet). But many long haul carriers do, all the way to the darkest level.

skipness1E wrote:

Opus99 wrote:

I have never in my experience had the Windows locked on my 787 experience. I don’t think I’ve flown with an airline that does that.

What airlines are you flying with? US and CA domestics seem to have been left at the passengers discretion, and BA / VS long haul doesn't lock em (yet). But many long haul carriers do, all the way to the darkest level.

BA and QR are the only airlines i fly to be fair. Between them I can get anywhere I need to.

They never lock them

I've heard several issues from the 787s' dimmable windows, such as the time it takes to dim itself, windows heating up and not really providing any shade when needed, alongside the notorious god-forbid crew-controbility.

Does anyone know if these problems have been fixed with the technological advancement?

I see the centralized override darkening feature as the problem. If the flight attendant dims all windows it is okay if the individual is permitted to unblind his own window afterwards. If not a window seat has lost any value.

What a dilemma: as cabin crew I would say: sleeping passengers = good passengers.

As a passenger, I absolutely detest these windows. What a horror when my airline soon flies both types and one day I can probably not avoid working on at least one of them...

I am very sure we are heading into the future, where ALL new aircraft will have these. With technology advancing such a old technology must be rather cheap these days. And considering that you don't have to replace window shades anymore and that you can give the crew full control over it, this is the way ahead. It will be cheaper to operate/maintain and be easier for crews to manage.

I know some people don't like this, but I personally look forward to this future.

I'd have a major problem paying for a window seat .. and then sitting next to basically a wall .. not being permitted to see out of that window just because some precious flight attendants on a power trip want the cabin dark out of sheer laziness so passengers won't bother them. Passengers should have control over this .. not flight attendants.

Though, at least AA has told their flight attendants to stop locking the dimmable windows .. this was from another recent post on the subject ..

"Customers sitting in the window seat enjoy watching take-off, landing and even spotting landmarks from the sky. The Boeing 787 windows are larger and have unique controls for window shades. Recent feedback about customer experiences on this aircraft is that the windows are completely dimmed and locked by flight attendants, leaving customers frustrated that they are unable to control the window features from their seat. Do not lock the window features on the Boeing 787. It's important that each customer at a window can control their own experience."

Bravo American.

The principle reason Airbus chose to pass on dimmable windows until now was that the technology did not fully obscure daylight (or moonlight). 3rd gen presumably manages to do so.
Always been a tough call as to freedom to look out, especially when almost everyone else wants to sleep or watch a movie. There always seemed to be someone who likes the view and "floods" the cabin with light. Will always be thus. Up to operators to decide to use the override (assuming Airbus follow the Boeing 787 lead). Not that an IFE equipped cabin will ever be dark!

Considering it seems Airbus has been offering it for a while now, but as an option, I wonder why they've decided to make it standard?

What airlines have taken them up on the option so far?

I don't have a problem with dimmable windows as long as the crew can't override them, hopefully Airbus won't make the same mistake Boeing made on this one.

oldJoe wrote:

What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!

LIGHT. You want to see daylight. The thing that you would normally expect to see between 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. The thing that informs the circadian rhythm. The thing that gives you Vitamin D. Also, the ORD-HNL flight I referenced is only half over water; there's plenty of scenery during the other half. The opposite question is: Why would you want to be stuck in a dark tube with 250 others in the middle of the day and have your ONLY source of outside light cut off?
/
The airline was American.

skipness1E wrote:

Opus99 wrote:

I have never in my experience had the Windows locked on my 787 experience. I don’t think I’ve flown with an airline that does that.

What airlines are you flying with? US and CA domestics seem to have been left at the passengers discretion, and BA / VS long haul doesn't lock em (yet). But many long haul carriers do, all the way to the darkest level.

The US domestic, ORD-HNL flight I spoke about earlier - windows fully dark for the entire flight in the middle of the day - was on American Airlines.

F27500 wrote:

I'd have a major problem paying for a window seat .. and then sitting next to basically a wall .. not being permitted to see out of that window just because some precious flight attendants on a power trip want the cabin dark out of sheer laziness so passengers won't bother them. Passengers should have control over this .. not flight attendants.

Though, at least AA has told their flight attendants to stop locking the dimmable windows .. this was from another recent post on the subject ..

"Customers sitting in the window seat enjoy watching take-off, landing and even spotting landmarks from the sky. The Boeing 787 windows are larger and have unique controls for window shades. Recent feedback about customer experiences on this aircraft is that the windows are completely dimmed and locked by flight attendants, leaving customers frustrated that they are unable to control the window features from their seat. Do not lock the window features on the Boeing 787. It's important that each customer at a window can control their own experience."

Bravo American.

That's good to know. American was the airline I was on ORD-HNL in the middle of the day where the windows were fully darkened the entire flight. That was nearly 2 years ago.

The passenger experience can be claustrophobic enough, especially when the window seat passenger slams it shut and puts clothing or a pillow in front of it. Now the little bit of outside view and natural light can be blocked out all over by the captain. Not in favor, especially when I book well ahead and often pay a premium. for that bit of view or light.

The dim will also certainly be controllable by the crew like the 787. Many airlines view that as plus, not just for getting passengers to sleep but I know some that like it so they can easily dim all the windows to help keep plane cool if it is going to be sitting in hot sun for an extended period of time.

Polot wrote:

The dim will also certainly be controllable by the crew like the 787. Many airlines view that as plus, not just for getting passengers to sleep but I know some that like it so they can easily dim all the windows to help keep plane cool if it is going to be sitting in hot sun for an extended period of time.

That much is true...From my days in cabin cleaning last year, the purser control panel can allow you to put the entire cabin in a certain programmable setting with minimal fixture lighting and fully darkened windows to prevent overheating inside

CARST wrote:

I personally look forward to this future.

Would you mind explaining why?

No Tax On Rotax

notaxonrotax wrote:

CARST wrote:

I personally look forward to this future.

Would you mind explaining why?

No Tax On Rotax

I'm looking forward to them too. Contrary to the experiences above, most of my experiences on the 787 have been that - yes - while crews set the windows to automatically dim at certain points you ultimately retain control. I also LOVE looking out the window, and the 787 window allows me to see out without disrupting pax. I've been on many many flights where you try to open up the window shade a little to see out and it's absolutely blinding to you and your fellow pax so you just end up closing it again to avoid being disruptive and/or blinding yourself. The dimmable window allows for a happy medium, where you can lighten it just enough to see out and look a things. Plus, one of the big US3 just specifically told their FAs top stop locking them, so I think the industry is heading to a place where there is more flexibility, especially since the windows are generally far less disruptive to neighbouring pax.

I've also been frustrated on multiple occasions by scenarios where windows with physical shades are behind Business Class seat installations (i.e., very hard to get to) or particularly hard to reach/close - even on new planes. FAs often have to do long reach and muscle closed the things across sleeping pax. Dimmables are much less disruptive. It's also a safety issue - windows need to be open in case of emergencies and/or landing (so pax don't get stunned upon emergency exit from the AC and/or the interior lighting isn't functioning I believe), and dimmable windows make that very easy.

Boo, bad decision.

In defense of the 787 though it's windows do have some benefits to crew controlability. Last year I was on a northbound flight that departed around dusk. Going through approximately FL150 we broke through the clouds which led too some really awful low sun angles on the Left (West) side of the aircraft. Obviouly this was much worse than in other aircraft thanks to the 787's enormous windows. However all was not lost. The proactive CSM adjusted the left side windows to dim by three notches (doing so slowly) but left them unlocked so that pax could change their windows as they liked (one or two did). The ambiance was then absolutely perfect in the cabin - further enhanced a while later by the mood lighting doing a slow transition to sunset colours.

crimsonchin wrote:

Considering it seems Airbus has been offering it for a while now, but as an option, I wonder why they've decided to make it standard?

The cost of the technology has probably come down to the point where it costs them more to support/manufacture two different options than to just offer the dimmable windows as standard equipment.

notaxonrotax wrote:

CARST wrote:

I personally look forward to this future.

Would you mind explaining why?

No Tax On Rotax

Well, quite simply, in longhaul, especially in premium classes up front, most sane people try to sleep for a good part of the flight (usually inbetween meals), so you can arrive refreshed at your destination and not loose a day there due to travelling through the time zones. And when the whole people has their windows closed, but one or two people think they must let full bright sunlight into the cabin, that makes sleeping a lot harder for a lot of people. Especially getting into a sleepy mode, when it's not yet the usual sleeping time in the time-zone you are departing from.

With a centrally controlled electronic window shade, the crew can create a natural sunset and sunrise. By my experience BA crew is often excellent in doing that, especially in combination with the installed mood lights. And for everyone who doesn't want to sleep and stays awake, they can still look out through the dimmed windows.

I prefer dimmable windows. My last transatlantic flight was westbound on a UA 767. It was completely a daytime flight (times were 1100 to 1300 local time), and I was sitting on the side away from the sun, and yet the F/A forced me to have my shade completely closed so people could sleep. If it was a 787, then I could at least find a happy medium by dimming it most of the way and still being able to see Greenland and such.

Does it mean no GPS signal as in the 787?

BAINY3 wrote:

I prefer dimmable windows. My last transatlantic flight was westbound on a UA 767. It was completely a daytime flight (times were 1100 to 1300 local time), and I was sitting on the side away from the sun, and yet the F/A forced me to have my shade completely closed so people could sleep. If it was a 787, then I could at least find a happy medium by dimming it most of the way and still being able to see Greenland and such.

This is United company policy. It's a deal breaker, I am never doing THAT again, UA B777 LHR-SFO, picked ny usual back row opposite sun side for the occasional photo and got moved to overwing port where light bounced off the wing and a woman on the opposite side several rows down kicked off loudly as she "couldn't sleep". Not gonna argue on an FAA regulated flight into the US so caved.
It's less about the tech and more about the particular airlines culture. United's senior cabin crew actually do want 100% no exceptions in darkness and use torches in the cabin, when everyone flying westbound is in the middle of the day. American are mostly shades down but never had an issue with mine 1/2 up so long as not streaming in sun. Been a while since I flew Delta on the atlantic. But United were not having it, you paid hundreds to sit in the dark. Oh, and it was a London based cabin crew.

ScottB wrote:

crimsonchin wrote:

Considering it seems Airbus has been offering it for a while now, but as an option, I wonder why they've decided to make it standard?

The cost of the technology has probably come down to the point where it costs them more to support/manufacture two different options than to just offer the dimmable windows as standard equipment.

This. It simplifies installation procedures and maintenance manuals. If the cost is lower, most airlines will want this.

When sleeping, the "flood" of light awakens me.

I look forward to this tech going into narrowbodies too, in particular long haul flights. I love looking out the window, but I find I am doing it taxiing, takeoff/landing and little spurts here and there.

I hadn't thought of cabin heating... Reducing air conditioning reduces fuel burn...

Lightsaber

b4thefall wrote:

I've been on many long haul flights where the cabin crew ordered the old school window shades to be closed for the entire flight. The most irritating of these for me was on an MH flight from LHR to KUL. Any time someone opened a shade, the crew immediately appeared to tell them to close it again. Eventually, during the descent, all window shades were required to be opened again.

At least with the new windows, even when they are fully darkened, there is still at least some slight view outside as the don't seem to darken 100% fully.

Any eastbound flight longer than 6-8 hours is going to have a near majority of people sleeping on it during the daylight hours outside. That's the reality of flying against the sun and across multiple timezones.

Take MH3, flight leaves at 11am and lands at 7am the next day. 13 hour flight time. What are pax going to want to do? Sleep, so they can be ready to go at 7am local time when they land. Keeping the shades open is selfish in these circumstances.

By all means keep your shades open when it's dark outside, it's a short flight (less than four to six hours) or you're flying westbound and people aren't expecting to sleep (like EK201 which is wheels up at 8.30am and landing at 2pm, even though the flight time is 13 hours, pax will want to be awake when they land to beat jetlag).

It's rude to be the only window open in a cabin, the person sitting at the window seat doesn't get blinded by the light, it's the people along the row who cop it. Once more than 50% of the shades are closed, then it's time to start following suit. Your fellow passengers have voted.

lightsaber wrote:

When sleeping, the "flood" of light awakens me.

Eyemask. Problem solved.

Lightsaber wrote:

I hadn't thought of cabin heating... Reducing air conditioning reduces fuel burn...

Because there was not a reason to think of it. For cabin heating to be an issue during cruise, the sun has to be very low in the sky, which is a position that does not last long.

The aircon involved usually involves heating up air, as the ambient temp and pressure are not conducive to thermal excesses.

lightsaber wrote:

ScottB wrote:

crimsonchin wrote:

Considering it seems Airbus has been offering it for a while now, but as an option, I wonder why they've decided to make it standard?

The cost of the technology has probably come down to the point where it costs them more to support/manufacture two different options than to just offer the dimmable windows as standard equipment.

This. It simplifies installation procedures and maintenance manuals. If the cost is lower, most airlines will want this.

When sleeping, the "flood" of light awakens me.

I look forward to this tech going into narrowbodies too, in particular long haul flights. I love looking out the window, but I find I am doing it taxiing, takeoff/landing and little spurts here and there.

I hadn't thought of cabin heating... Reducing air conditioning reduces fuel burn...

Lightsaber

Dark cabin = high % of sleeping passengers

High % of sleeping passengers = lower staff workload

High % of sleeping passengers = lower food and drink consumption

Crew control window shading creates an opportunity to 'sell' passenger control of 'their' window shading. Already an app for this feature developed in conjunction with an Airbus strategic partner.

A genuine question to all those in favour of the cabin crew darkening the windows:

What prevents you from wearing an eye mask if you wish to sleep?
This way, those who want to sleep have their darkness whereas those who wish to have some daylight (for reasons regarding their inner clock, watching the scenery etc.) can still have their windows “open”.

I’m really curious to hear from you.

Im really curious to hear too whats so hard about watching the world through a dimmed window?

While I love the large 787 windows and the dimmable function, as setting it at the 1st or 2nd level still allows you to look outside while filtering the brightest light, I just hate the override function crews have. For instance, just a couple of weeks ago I flew EWR-JNB, a 15 hour flight, and the windows were locked at the darkest level from us reaching cruise altitude to top of descent.

One of the worse one was my AA flight on LAX-PVG, a daylight 14 hour flight (9:30AM-4:30PM), and the whole duration of the flight the windows were locked at the darkest setting. That was quite depressing. Even on short hops like DFW-LAX the windows have been locked at the darkest level.

davies2911 wrote:

Im really curious to hear too whats so hard about watching the world through a dimmed window?

It's like seeing the world through cataracts.

PixelPilot wrote:

I love them by design but hate the fact sometimes I'm forced to look through a completely dimmed glass when flying.
I paid for a window seat to be able to see through it.
Somebody that wants to sleep can put a mask on (already can hear the dumb argument).

This is what I think too. Thank you, I couldn't have said it any better. I wish the number of people who think this way grows.

smartplane wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

ScottB wrote:

The cost of the technology has probably come down to the point where it costs them more to support/manufacture two different options than to just offer the dimmable windows as standard equipment.

This. It simplifies installation procedures and maintenance manuals. If the cost is lower, most airlines will want this.

When sleeping, the "flood" of light awakens me.

I look forward to this tech going into narrowbodies too, in particular long haul flights. I love looking out the window, but I find I am doing it taxiing, takeoff/landing and little spurts here and there.

I hadn't thought of cabin heating... Reducing air conditioning reduces fuel burn...

Lightsaber

Dark cabin = high % of sleeping passengers

High % of sleeping passengers = lower staff workload

High % of sleeping passengers = lower food and drink consumption

Crew control window shading creates an opportunity to 'sell' passenger control of 'their' window shading. Already an app for this feature developed in conjunction with an Airbus strategic partner.

I'll buy this app ASAP!

Tristar787 wrote:

The windows do automatically “clear” on the 787 when you descend through 10,000 feet but unless the crew lock them clear at that time a pax can darken them again. I’m sure the 350 will be similar. Not all carriers require windows to be open/clear for take off and landing though.

In the US it is a requirement for windows to be open (Clear) during that flight phase.

oldJoe wrote:

L0VE2FLY wrote:

The inevitable has happened! Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future.

Heinkel wrote:

You are right. Good analogy. It is like Marmite / Vegemite. 90% of the population really hates it - me included.

It is not the dimmed windows per se, it is the fact, that - depending on the airline - the crew has the control if you can look out of the window or not.

When I fly, I want a window seat, if ever available. And why? because I want to look out of the window! I don't want, that anyone else controls the shaders or the dimmable windows. Period.

Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.

What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!

Lets see you can see the stars better than on the ground & there is that thing called the aurora borealis "The Northern Lights" Have had people book flights to be able to see it & have FA's darken the windows. People have posted about it online here.

Also: You can these days buy really nice Mask now that padding around the the edges so to create a better seal & keep the cloth off your eyelids.. Man-up people.

CARST wrote:

I am very sure we are heading into the future, where ALL new aircraft will have these. With technology advancing such a old technology must be rather cheap these days. And considering that you don't have to replace window shades anymore and that you can give the crew full control over it, this is the way ahead. It will be cheaper to operate/maintain and be easier for crews to manage.

I know some people don't like this, but I personally look forward to this future.

Cheaper to operate yes, better for us passengers that have had to pay for a window seat. Not so much. After all I can no longer get the view from the cockpit on request thanks to 9-11. Also impeds the rescue crews on ground if 1 button dims all windows during a hijacking. Why make it easier for then?

davies2911 wrote:

Im really curious to hear too whats so hard about watching the world through a dimmed window?

You can barely see it and any attempt at photography is hopeless without editing. Also there's a huge tint.