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rbavfan
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:48 pm

CARST wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:
CARST wrote:

I personally look forward to this future.


Would you mind explaining why?

No Tax On Rotax


Well, quite simply, in longhaul, especially in premium classes up front, most sane people try to sleep for a good part of the flight (usually inbetween meals), so you can arrive refreshed at your destination and not loose a day there due to travelling through the time zones. And when the whole people has their windows closed, but one or two people think they must let full bright sunlight into the cabin, that makes sleeping a lot harder for a lot of people. Especially getting into a sleepy mode, when it's not yet the usual sleeping time in the time-zone you are departing from.

With a centrally controlled electronic window shade, the crew can create a natural sunset and sunrise. By my experience BA crew is often excellent in doing that, especially in combination with the installed mood lights. And for everyone who doesn't want to sleep and stays awake, they can still look out through the dimmed windows.


True on partially dimmed windows, but some go full on dim. Wear a mask or have seporate dark cabins if you can't deal with it. Mind you the same people that scream wearing a face mask will scream the same my rights crap. What about our rights to see what we at times have to pay extra for. Airlines like NK and allegiant & even one unnamed carriers that pretends not to be ULLC. Have charged higher tiered pricing for Window (highest, Isle next highest & middle seat cheapest. Then make us lower our paid for blinds because a passenger does not like the light.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:31 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Tristar787 wrote:
The windows do automatically “clear” on the 787 when you descend through 10,000 feet but unless the crew lock them clear at that time a pax can darken them again. I’m sure the 350 will be similar. Not all carriers require windows to be open/clear for take off and landing though.


In the US it is a requirement for windows to be open (Clear) during that flight phase.

Nope, it isn't. The FAA require the airline to follow it's submitted "Operational Plan" (I forget it's proper title). Each US airline specifies their individual requirement within their plan. Some require all shades open, some require certain shades open, some don't require any.

Meanwhile in the rest of the world.....it's mostly mandated shades should be raised for take-off and landing.
 
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CARST
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:13 am

rbavfan wrote:
CARST wrote:
notaxonrotax wrote:

Would you mind explaining why?

No Tax On Rotax


Well, quite simply, in longhaul, especially in premium classes up front, most sane people try to sleep for a good part of the flight (usually inbetween meals), so you can arrive refreshed at your destination and not loose a day there due to travelling through the time zones. And when the whole people has their windows closed, but one or two people think they must let full bright sunlight into the cabin, that makes sleeping a lot harder for a lot of people. Especially getting into a sleepy mode, when it's not yet the usual sleeping time in the time-zone you are departing from.

With a centrally controlled electronic window shade, the crew can create a natural sunset and sunrise. By my experience BA crew is often excellent in doing that, especially in combination with the installed mood lights. And for everyone who doesn't want to sleep and stays awake, they can still look out through the dimmed windows.


True on partially dimmed windows, but some go full on dim. Wear a mask or have seporate dark cabins if you can't deal with it. Mind you the same people that scream wearing a face mask will scream the same my rights crap. What about our rights to see what we at times have to pay extra for. Airlines like NK and allegiant & even one unnamed carriers that pretends not to be ULLC. Have charged higher tiered pricing for Window (highest, Isle next highest & middle seat cheapest. Then make us lower our paid for blinds because a passenger does not like the light.


I really don't care what some US LCCs do and this is apple and oranges anyway and has nothing to do with my argument. A350s and 787s are longhaul aircraft and thus are mainly used on longhaul routes. As far as I know no airline charges extra for window seats on longhaul flights. And in Business and First Class cabins, people don't pay extra to look out the window. They pay to get a good seat, good food, good service, but mostly, as part of the seat, the ability to get a good sleep to arrive not too tired at their destination.
 
skipness1E
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:01 am

So westbound transatlantic, rather than stay reasonably awake and alert, you are nudged to nap like a compliant kid for 4-6 hours then get to the States in the afternoon having slept. And you wonder why you can't sleep that first night to get onto US time?
PLEASE.....
 
LLA001
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:26 am

Reading the reactions from you reminds me of another window centered discussion in transport,

In 1890s, when first deep level London Underground trains were introduced they did not have windows. Compared to other London Underground lines, new built line was %100 below the ground and constantly travelled inside tunnels and operators thought there was no need for passengers to look out. They were named "Padded Cells" by the public as the interior of the train was quite claustrophobic, you can see a picture of the train in the link below.

https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/ ... m/1981-538

Having no windows was not popular amongst the passengers ( first of all someone had to shout the station name when they arrived) but mostly it made a cramped space feel even smaller. So later undeground trains were built with proper windows so the passengers can gaze outside even if its pitch black.

So 130 years later, now we are discussing whether a flying tube should have a controllable or uncontrollable windows :)
 
lifecomm
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:22 pm

I'd love to see exterior cameras giving passengers the ability to see various views from their PEDs.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:28 pm

Bad news for passengers who like to see the world. Until now it was easy for me. I just avoid all flights operated by the Boeing 787. Now I have to find out the delivery date of the Airbus A350 the airline is using. After 2022? Than I will book another flight.
 
wingman
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:40 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Bad news for passengers who like to see the world. Until now it was easy for me. I just avoid all flights operated by the Boeing 787. Now I have to find out the delivery date of the Airbus A350 the airline is using. After 2022? Than I will book another flight.


At some point you won't be able to fly long haul at all so maybe get all the global bucket list stuff done now and then you can retire with a more limited travel plan that relies on EVs and trains. You're lucky in that respect, it's impossible to beat the richness of "nearby" vacation destinations when Europe is your home base. I don't have that luxury beyond National Parks from Portland, OR. After a while one just yearns for a pizza in a piazza.
 
MeCe
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:43 pm

oldJoe wrote:

What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


I think you never see a thunderstrom from distance.
 
Tristar787
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:45 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Tristar787 wrote:
The windows do automatically “clear” on the 787 when you descend through 10,000 feet but unless the crew lock them clear at that time a pax can darken them again. I’m sure the 350 will be similar. Not all carriers require windows to be open/clear for take off and landing though.


In the US it is a requirement for windows to be open (Clear) during that flight phase.


Not anymore. I have flown Delta extensively over the last few years and their windows do not have to be open for take off and landing. I was on a DL 321 just last week on a day flight and the overwhelming majority of window blinds were closed the entire flight. I asked a friend who works for DL about it and was told that it is no longer a FAA safety requirement.
 
CALAV8R
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:22 pm

747-600X wrote:
I flew the 787 from Chicago to Honolulu and they had the windows locked dark from just after takeoff until we were actually on the ground. It drove my mad. It literally begs the question: why have windows at all? I won't fly on 787s now unless I have some way to know, for certain, that I'll be able to control the window myself.


If the "company in question" sends you an email requesting feedback....write that up! It is against SOP's of the "company in question" to lock the windows at any time.
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:24 pm

PacificRim wrote:
davies2911 wrote:
Im really curious to hear too whats so hard about watching the world through a dimmed window?


It's like seeing the world through cataracts.


Or watching the world through dark sun glasses. No, thanks.

There shall be light!
 
CALAV8R
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:26 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Tristar787 wrote:
The windows do automatically “clear” on the 787 when you descend through 10,000 feet but unless the crew lock them clear at that time a pax can darken them again. I’m sure the 350 will be similar. Not all carriers require windows to be open/clear for take off and landing though.


In the US it is a requirement for windows to be open (Clear) during that flight phase.


It is only a requirement for exit door windows shades to be open/clear. So we're talking physical doors here not overwing exits and certainly not pax windows. Individual company policies however may go above and beyond this rule if needed. For example, United's company policy is to "request, not require" pax to open their window shades for taxi/takeoff/landing. I have seen on both UA and AA (both on occasion) that the crew will clear all windows on the 787 during the final phase before landing. But as someone mentioned before, since they're not locked open, pax are free to dim them again.
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:41 pm

oldJoe wrote:
What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


When flying DUS - SIN on a SIA A350: Excellent view on the moon, which was suddenly in a complete different possition than at home. Phantastic view on Calcutta (new speech: Kolkata) and the river Ganges at night.

On another night fligth on a Turkish Airlines B777 IST to BKK: Phantastic sunset with glowing horizon.

In both cases I was happy to have a window seat in J with full control on the classic shader.

I have the feeling, that many of you here are spoilt brats and have forgotten to admire the miracle of flight. If ever possible, I choose a window seat and I want to look out.

During daytime flights, it is smart to choose a window seat on the side opposite to the sun.

When in Australia, I had to learn, that the sun is in the North at noon...
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:44 pm

lifecomm wrote:
I'd love to see exterior cameras giving passengers the ability to see various views from their PEDs.


May be that works for people, who are used to see the world through the small screen of their PED.

That can never beat the view from a real window.
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:49 pm

skipness1E wrote:
davies2911 wrote:
Im really curious to hear too whats so hard about watching the world through a dimmed window?

You can barely see it and any attempt at photography is hopeless without editing. Also there's a huge tint.


Look like these FA controlled dimmed a/c windows are made for people, who drive cars with dark tainted "privacy" windows.

No, thanks. I want to see the world as it is as clear and bright as possible.
 
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ro1960
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:05 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.


Darkening the cabin? How about centrally turning off all the back seat IFE screens? That’s what will keep it dark, not blocking the windows when it’s dark out!
 
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ro1960
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:13 pm

How about malfunction? Specially for airlines requiring that windows shades be open on takeoff and landing. Can it be stuck on full dark?
 
Kent350787
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:20 pm

lifecomm wrote:
I'd love to see exterior cameras giving passengers the ability to see various views from their PEDs.


Joke? A350 already have three HD exterior cameras acessible to passengers.

I don't have strong views on dimmable windows. I've seen how they don't work effectively in winter trans-pacific (can't fully block low sun - JL had physical plugs that you could request if on the southern side of 787), but even full dim during daylight I can still see out, and the cabin isn't blasted with bright sun from a shade cracked open.
 
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Polot
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:21 pm

ro1960 wrote:
How about malfunction? Specially for airlines requiring that windows shades be open on takeoff and landing. Can it be stuck on full dark?

Fail state results in window being clear. (Very low) Voltage required to keep dim.
 
oldJoe
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:49 pm

Heinkel wrote :
When flying DUS - SIN on a SIA A350: Excellent view on the moon, which was suddenly in a complete different possition than at home. Phantastic view on Calcutta (new speech: Kolkata) and the river Ganges at night.

Strange I talk about night flight over ocean and you come up with this flight :
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=DUS-SGN ???

In both cases I was happy to have a window seat in J with full control on the classic shader.

What about if these seats where sold out ?
I have the feeling, that many of you here are spoilt brats and have forgotten to admire the miracle of flight. If ever possible, I choose a window seat and I want to look out.

I see that as an insult which clearly violates the forum rules !
During daytime flights, it is smart to choose a window seat on the side opposite to the sun.

What about you can`t have a seat on that side and the FA`s decide not to shade your window ? ( be happy )
Look like these FA controlled dimmed a/c windows are made for people, who drive cars with dark tainted "privacy" windows.

No, thanks. I want to see the world as it is as clear and bright as possible.


I think we come from the same country and what can you see out of the window in autumn, right simply fog? In addition, it is forbidden in our country to darken the front windshield and the front windows, so you as the driver or passenger can sit in the right seat and enjoy the landscape, nothing less !

If you really want to see the moon, what do you do when there is a lunar eclipse on you really want to see the moon, what do you do when there is a lunar eclipse on your flight which happened to several times flight ?
My company has always insisted that we arrive rested (sleep) and start working immediately ! And that cannot be achieved by looking at the moon during the night
 
AngMoh
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:34 am

Heinkel wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


When flying DUS - SIN on a SIA A350: Excellent view on the moon, which was suddenly in a complete different possition than at home. Phantastic view on Calcutta (new speech: Kolkata) and the river Ganges at night.



This flight is a bad example. You saw Kolkata at 3 am local time: it is night and you see lights of the city and nobody will stop you as it does not affect other pax. The flight departs at 11 am and lands 7 am. There is no need for shades down because the light/dark outside corresponds to when people on the flight want to sleep.

If you had done the same on the 10pm LH or SQ FRA-SIN flight, people would have been screaming and the crew would have commanded you to close the shade immediately. You would be above Kolkata at noon local time and the opening of the shade would have flooded the cabin and woken up everyone. When flying Europe-Sin, I prefer fly from FRA or LHR as most pax fly for business and try to sleep. AMS, CPH, ARN are terrible with all the tourist making a zoo of the plane. And lets not talk about DME-SIN which seems to be the drunk flight.

I had one 787 flight WAW-SIN and it used dimmable shades. It did not work - it was just not dark enough. Departure 1:45am (flight was delayed), sun up 2 hours later and flight duration 12 hours landing at 5pm. On top of that, there was damage to 3 shades causing a purple sheen through the cabin. You really want the mechanical shades. I finally got some proper sleep 40 hours after I woke up at my place of stay in Europe. And I was not travelling for fun.

On the other hand, 787 dimmable shades were great during BKK-SIN day flight, just partially dim them so the glare is gone but you can see everything.
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:53 am

AngMoh wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


When flying DUS - SIN on a SIA A350: Excellent view on the moon, which was suddenly in a complete different possition than at home. Phantastic view on Calcutta (new speech: Kolkata) and the river Ganges at night.



This flight is a bad example. You saw Kolkata at 3 am local time: it is night and you see lights of the city and nobody will stop you as it does not affect other pax. The flight departs at 11 am and lands 7 am. There is no need for shades down because the light/dark outside corresponds to when people on the flight want to sleep.


You are right. It was around 3 a.m., still a few hours to go to SIN.

And what a loss, if some FA on a power trip (or airline regulation) had blocked my vision, because "there is nothing to see at night"? We have ways to make you sleep! There is a lot to see, for those, who are willing and able to see.

AngMoh wrote:
If you had done the same on the 10pm LH or SQ FRA-SIN flight, people would have been screaming and the crew would have commanded you to close the shade immediately. You would be above Kolkata at noon local time and the opening of the shade would have flooded the cabin and woken up everyone. When flying Europe-Sin, I prefer fly from FRA or LHR as most pax fly for business and try to sleep. AMS, CPH, ARN are terrible with all the tourist making a zoo of the plane. And lets not talk about DME-SIN which seems to be the drunk flight.


Oh these bad, bad tourists. Note that our DUS-SIN flight (and second leg SIN-SYD) was in SIA's busines class but not for business. I've paid the full fare for me and my wife from my own money. So I insisted on an unobstructed window seat.

Many of the business travellers I know, like to fly in J, as long as their employer pays. When they fly for their own pleasure, they sit on their wallets and fly Y, even on long haul. Ridiculous.

AngMoh wrote:
I had one 787 flight WAW-SIN and it used dimmable shades. It did not work - it was just not dark enough. Departure 1:45am (flight was delayed), sun up 2 hours later and flight duration 12 hours landing at 5pm. On top of that, there was damage to 3 shades causing a purple sheen through the cabin. You really want the mechanical shades. I finally got some proper sleep 40 hours after I woke up at my place of stay in Europe. And I was not travelling for fun.

On the other hand, 787 dimmable shades were great during BKK-SIN day flight, just partially dim them so the glare is gone but you can see everything.


In the 1980s our company's Beechcraft Super King Air had some kind of dimmable window shades. They worked like a polarizer. You could turn the inner polariser layer and move from bright to dark by turning it 90°. Pure mechanic. And you had full control of the settings.

So the primary question is not if the shades are mechanical or optical/electrical it is a question of who has control. And the electrooptical version takes away a lot of your control. You are at the mercy of the FAs (or the airline's regulations).

Next time, when I'll fly for vacation to Australia, I'll ask SIA before, if they are in control of the shades or if I am.
 
lifecomm
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:34 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
lifecomm wrote:
I'd love to see exterior cameras giving passengers the ability to see various views from their PEDs.


Joke? A350 already have three HD exterior cameras acessible to passengers.


I did not know that! I have not been on a a350 - do 787s have these cameras?
 
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Jayafe
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:44 pm

lifecomm wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
lifecomm wrote:
I'd love to see exterior cameras giving passengers the ability to see various views from their PEDs.


Joke? A350 already have three HD exterior cameras acessible to passengers.


I did not know that! I have not been on a a350 - do 787s have these cameras?


Some carriers equip them on the A380s as well...
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:44 pm

oldJoe wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
The inevitable has happened! :mad: Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future. :banghead:


Heinkel wrote:

You are right. Good analogy. It is like Marmite / Vegemite. 90% of the population really hates it - me included.

It is not the dimmed windows per se, it is the fact, that - depending on the airline - the crew has the control if you can look out of the window or not.

When I fly, I want a window seat, if ever available. And why? because I want to look out of the window! I don't want, that anyone else controls the shaders or the dimmable windows. Period.


Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.


What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


Apparently the skies are always cloudy when you fly or you simply don't bother to look out the window! There's so much to see when flying, especially at daytime, have you ever seen cities like NYC, London or Paris or famous landmarks like The Grand Canyon or The Himalayas from 40000'?! Even at nighttime, flying over a big city is a very enjoyable experience.

rbavfan wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
The inevitable has happened! :mad: Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future. :banghead:




Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.


What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


Lets see you can see the stars better than on the ground & there is that thing called the aurora borealis "The Northern Lights" Have had people book flights to be able to see it & have FA's darken the windows. People have posted about it online here.

Also: You can these days buy really nice Mask now that padding around the the edges so to create a better seal & keep the cloth off your eyelids.. Man-up people.


I'm one of those people! I have a friend who just like me would go out of his way to avoid the so-called Dreamliner 'cause he missed out on seeing the The Northern Lights on his "dream" flight! I did post about him on this forum.

skipness1E wrote:
So westbound transatlantic, rather than stay reasonably awake and alert, you are nudged to nap like a compliant kid for 4-6 hours then get to the States in the afternoon having slept. And you wonder why you can't sleep that first night to get onto US time?
PLEASE.....


:checkmark: Exactly! I'm pretty sure airlines encourage their crews to create a sleep-inducing atmosphere on all flights and their crews are more than happy to oblige, the longer pax sleep the less demand there's for food, drink, IFE, etc... and the happier their employees (flight attendants) are.

lifecomm wrote:
I'd love to see exterior cameras giving passengers the ability to see various views from their PEDs.


Nothing is quite like the real thing, enjoying the view from an actual airplane's window, if I wanted to see a video of aerial views I'd go to Youtube, which I did a lot during the past 18+ months!

ro1960 wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.


Darkening the cabin? How about centrally turning off all the back seat IFE screens? That’s what will keep it dark, not blocking the windows when it’s dark out!


I'm talking about dimming/closing the windows when it's NOT dark out, the windows allow a lot more light in than the IFE screens would ever create.
 
oldJoe
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:44 am

LOVE2FLY wrote ;
Apparently the skies are always cloudy when you fly or you simply don't bother to look out the window! There's so much to see when flying, especially at daytime, have you ever seen cities like NYC, London or Paris or famous landmarks like The Grand Canyon or The Himalayas from 40000'?! Even at nighttime, flying over a big city is a very enjoyable experience.


I spoke of a night flight over an ocean and not of daytime ! Tell me which big city or famous landmarks you can see over an ocean :roll:
Even with eagle eyes you wouldn't even see a large whale from this height
 
dredgy
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:22 am

paullam wrote:
A genuine question to all those in favour of the cabin crew darkening the windows:

What prevents you from wearing an eye mask if you wish to sleep?
This way, those who want to sleep have their darkness whereas those who wish to have some daylight (for reasons regarding their inner clock, watching the scenery etc.) can still have their windows “open”.

I’m really curious to hear from you.


So I’m not really in favour of cabin crew in control of windows, and I’ve never had it happen in flight. BUT when someone opens a window shade when everybody else has theirs closed it’s extremely annoying. I don’t usually sleep on a plane, and when I do, I watch a movie to help me get to sleep. If I’m not trying to sleep, I’m also usually watching a movie. A dark cabin with some noise cancelling headphones is actually not a bad cinema-like experience. Until someone gives you an unexpected dose of sunlight. Plus I’m a side sleeper who tosses and turns, a sleep mask doesn’t stay on for long before it gets loose or caught on something. If I’m watching a movie trying to sleep I’m often wearing glasses so a sleep mask is useless in that situation (usually they fall off during sleep)

Every time I’ve flown on an 787 and cabin crew have dimmed windows, they’ve never been locked and I’ve always been able to turn the brightness back up.
I am someone who loves to look out the windows and much prefer the dimmable windows for this!

It’s always the best of both worlds to me - set the windows dark enough to not intrude on anybody else (and so I can sleep myself) but still be able to see out. Then if I wake up during the flight I can kind look out the window until I doze off again.

If I’m on a plane with window shades, I usually keep them closed out of politeness or desire to sleep so see much less out of the window than on the dimmable ones.
 
Noshow
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:31 am

A terrible innovation from my passenger perspective. I'd easily call it the worst innovation of this century.

First the window area gets widened to "improve" the views, make you see the horizon at all times and such and then centrally mastered blinds will prevent you from looking outside. Different from the promises you cannot completely undim the windows yourself and end up with bubbles and strange colours preventing you to take any pictures. This takes away all the flying experience and fascination. Flying has become subway riding.
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:43 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
The inevitable has happened! :mad: Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future. :banghead:

Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.


What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


Apparently the skies are always cloudy when you fly or you simply don't bother to look out the window! There's so much to see when flying, especially at daytime, have you ever seen cities like NYC, London or Paris or famous landmarks like The Grand Canyon or The Himalayas from 40000'?! Even at nighttime, flying over a big city is a very enjoyable experience.


Agreed 150% !!!
 
Noshow
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:51 pm

In the real world they seem to master dim all windows even at night and they master dim the shadow side of the flight that never gets sunlight shining into it. Just bad.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:35 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
So westbound transatlantic, rather than stay reasonably awake and alert, you are nudged to nap like a compliant kid for 4-6 hours then get to the States in the afternoon having slept. And you wonder why you can't sleep that first night to get onto US time?
PLEASE...

:checkmark: Exactly! I'm pretty sure airlines encourage their crews to create a sleep-inducing atmosphere on all flights and their crews are more than happy to oblige, the longer pax sleep the less demand there's for food, drink, IFE, etc... and the happier their employees (flight attendants) are.


Not inaccurate, however consider another perspective in that, perhaps many of the other passengers would prefer the cabin to be in that condition for other reasons as well, and that the 'sleep cabin' is actually a neutral that is best workable for the vast majority of people (passengers and crew) on the flight. In interacting with the crew, and/or tailoring your FF profile, you can really make the best, out of both worlds. On that same flight, instead of the 'mandatory nap' - have a mini vacation; action movie (that you honestly 've been to busy to watch anyway), some decent coffee, stretch, and a walk down the aisle, a few tasks in (check emails, write trip reports, meditate, text your Mom...), a meal (in the middle of everyone else's 'nap time'), and by the time that you land, you're powered enough to get through the airport/hotel/dinner and ready for that night's rest. A quick conversation with crew, and you can have it to your advantage. That said, the rest of the cabin may need that 'rest', because even at work (emails, webinars, training, reading), and/or rest, and/or consumption of media, and/or cooling of the cabin, and/or for then auxiliary benefit of the crew - the darker cabin is the best 'medium'. That said, the journey has to work best, for the traveler. If you know that you've found a great medium of time, and will keep it - go for it. If you've been connecting, though - it might not be the best idea, and - rest is best. What works best, for both? The aircraft, and crew - can accommodate, especially if they understand why and how. Often, they're receptive - because they're the ones spending the most time in the cabin to being with.

Case in point, and I admit to not necessarily being one to prefer VS over any other, but consider how much light can/should/will/does affect the mood that they are attempting to create, on their A350s going forward - in the same markets that you're discussing:

https://thedesignair.net/2021/09/02/innovation-is-great-but-it-needs-to-have-purpose-dont-forget-your-passengers-introducing-virgins-booth/It’s not clear where ‘The Booth’ will be situated (as the mock-ups shown have a curved wall, suggesting it might not be situated in the middle of the cabin). However, we believe it will most likely be by the First Left door (Door L1), as this is usually where one of the toilets are situated. With just 16 seats, there’s an argument that you’d only need 2 instead of the three at the front of the existing A350s, and the triangular wedge on one of the seats in the booth seem to reflect the footwell of a potential Upper Class suite – so it’s a logical conclusion to make.

The customer:
The routes that these specifically configured A350’s will fly will mainly be leisure routes. Expect Caribbean and Orlando to top the list here. These are low-business routes, and high leisure routes. As such the need for privacy, or a meeting room are minimal. Most Upper Class passengers on this route will be affluent leisure passengers who may have saved or looked forward to a trip for months.


Image

Image

Advocating for the crew;

https://thedesignair.net/2021/09/02/innovation-is-great-but-it-needs-to-have-purpose-dont-forget-your-passengers-introducing-virgins-booth/"You may also remember James Bond sipping Vesper martinis at the Upper Class bar and for those fortunate enough to have flown with them over a decade ago, the beauticians and massage therapists that flew with the crew, giving passengers anything from a neck and shoulder rub to a manicure. Simply put, what Virgin Atlantic means to many can be summed up as ‘fun’.".


Image
*mind you, image above is on an A330.

Advocate, both with the cabin, and the crew - for the brilliant idea above, of a 'light zone'. I mean, another great space to get some light, is from the crew's seat/perspective. They have the best stories, are the best to talk to, and can often take some pictures, or offer some ventures - that you can't.

To add, this was what QF was studying on their 787s, with their SYD-JFK flights:
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/qantas-new-york-sydney-flight-record-scli-intl/index.html
"Passengers in the main cabin wore monitoring devices, and experts from the Charles Perkins Centre will study how their "health, wellbeing and body clock" was impacted by a set of variables that include lighting, food and drink, movement, sleep patterns and inflight entertainment.

Pilots and cabin crew will also keep sleep diaries. Cameras were mounted in the cockpit to record pilot alertness.
"People seem to be wildly different when it comes to the experience of jetlag -- and we need more research on what contributes to jetlag and travel fatigue, so we can try and reduce the impact of long-haul flights," Professor Stephen Simpson, academic director of the University of Sydney's Charles Perkins Centre, told CNN Travel.
"We have a long way to go in terms of understanding how the wide variety of influences -- including nutrition, hydration, exercise, sleep and light -- might work together for maximum benefit,"".


The pictures alone are worth the visit.
Image

Backing to the topic at had, QF tested these flights, on the 787, and with the A350 in mind;
https://simpleflying.com/qantas-project-sunrise-capa/
"Project Sunrise is Qantas’ ambitious scheme to operate globe striding non-stop passenger flights using specially modified Airbus A350-1000 aircraft. Qantas flagged non-stop flights between Australia’s east coast cities and New York, Rio de Janeiro, Frankfurt, Capetown, and London.
Qantas was just weeks from sealing the deal early last year when the travel downturn scuppered its plans. But the airline never dropped the idea. Instead, Qantas quietly put the strategy away into the top drawer and waited for the market to improve.".


So, a carrier like QF, at the top of the mission profile for the A350 might well see improvements that have been studied and tested before, on the 787.

Once more, this is the beginning of a rather significant step forward for this type of travel - and improvements are needed, however not without both study, and passenger demands/responses. Not suggesting that anyone must pay for the privilege, however - especially with experienced travelers - those changes can be enlightening for both parties, if they advocate for them.

Congratulations to the A350, and once again - what an accomplishment as a whole, considering that the A350 is capable of performing tasks that we once assumed to be impossible. Not willing to give up the fight, flying assisted in innovation. Work on the passenger's experience, and I am sure that you'll find not only many more that are just like you - but also, truly what can work best for most traveling.
 
skipness1E
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:14 pm

None of those many, many words mean anything for those of us in Economy who might just want to watch the sunset at 30,000ft or watch the enormity of New York and JFK/LGA pass on the right hand side as you head towards Miami. Such are memories made of....
Without overcomplicating things, this is one of THE basics of flying, that folk in a window seat are being denied the benefit of a window.

Sleep cabin is not, not, NOT neutral. It's a conscious decision to get people to nap, and frankly, if I am shelling out hundreds of pounds, that's kind of contrary to my expectations, I don't like being "managed" in that way.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:03 pm

oldJoe wrote:
LOVE2FLY wrote ;
Apparently the skies are always cloudy when you fly or you simply don't bother to look out the window! There's so much to see when flying, especially at daytime, have you ever seen cities like NYC, London or Paris or famous landmarks like The Grand Canyon or The Himalayas from 40000'?! Even at nighttime, flying over a big city is a very enjoyable experience.


I spoke of a night flight over an ocean and not of daytime ! Tell me which big city or famous landmarks you can see over an ocean :roll:
Even with eagle eyes you wouldn't even see a large whale from this height


Many night flights begin/end with a sunrise/sunset, have you ever seen a sunrise/sunset from high altitude, if you haven't I highly recommend it! It doesn't matter whether you're over an ocean or land, also as I mentioned above a friend of mine missed out on seeing The Northern Lights on a red eye flight on the 787.

Noshow wrote:
A terrible innovation from my passenger perspective. I'd easily call it the worst innovation of this century.

First the window area gets widened to "improve" the views, make you see the horizon at all times and such and then centrally mastered blinds will prevent you from looking outside. Different from the promises you cannot completely undim the windows yourself and end up with bubbles and strange colours preventing you to take any pictures. This takes away all the flying experience and fascination. Flying has become subway riding.


It's certainly the worst invention in air travel. I remember years ago when Boeing announced that the 787 will have larger windows than all other airliners, as a huge window seat fan I was so excited and then I learned about the awful dimmable windows! :mad: I'm so disappointed at Airbus for jumping on the dimmable windows bandwagon, they were my only hope.

Heinkel wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!


Apparently the skies are always cloudy when you fly or you simply don't bother to look out the window! There's so much to see when flying, especially at daytime, have you ever seen cities like NYC, London or Paris or famous landmarks like The Grand Canyon or The Himalayas from 40000'?! Even at nighttime, flying over a big city is a very enjoyable experience.


Agreed 150% !!!


Always good to hear from fellow a.netter with common sense in a world full of people who think that looking out of an airplane's window is overrated, it's unbelievable that even on a.net there's so many of those people!

skipness1E wrote:
None of those many, many words mean anything for those of us in Economy who might just want to watch the sunset at 30,000ft or watch the enormity of New York and JFK/LGA pass on the right hand side as you head towards Miami. Such are memories made of....
Without overcomplicating things, this is one of THE basics of flying, that folk in a window seat are being denied the benefit of a window.

Sleep cabin is not, not, NOT neutral. It's a conscious decision to get people to nap, and frankly, if I am shelling out hundreds of pounds, that's kind of contrary to my expectations, I don't like being "managed" in that way.


:checkmark: Very well said skipness1E, unfortunately we live in a world full of nervous flyers and dummies who'd rather watch a movie or play a game than look out the windows and enjoy the spectacular beauty of planet Earth!
 
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Tugger
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:10 pm

dredgy wrote:
Every time I’ve flown on an 787 and cabin crew have dimmed windows, they’ve never been locked and I’ve always been able to turn the brightness back up.
I am someone who loves to look out the windows and much prefer the dimmable windows for this!

It’s always the best of both worlds to me - set the windows dark enough to not intrude on anybody else (and so I can sleep myself) but still be able to see out. Then if I wake up during the flight I can kind look out the window until I doze off again.

If I’m on a plane with window shades, I usually keep them closed out of politeness or desire to sleep so see much less out of the window than on the dimmable ones.

Noboby seems to acknowledge the above post, made with real world experience.

And even at full "dark" the 787 window (using as a proxy for the A350) is not "black" and impossible to see out of for daylight viewing (which is when the crew does cabin-wide darkening).

Tugg
 
Noshow
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:28 am

Full dark is dark enough to spoil the experience. I prefer a clear window and using my jacket to shield my fellow passengers from incoming bright light if necessary. On the shadow side of the flight you would not need any shield.
Wouldn't it be easy to install light sensors that at least automatically fully open blinds whenever there is no incoming light?
 
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Tugger
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:58 pm

Apparently it has been an issue and the airlines have directed staff to not interfere with customers that wish to lighten the window for better viewing:
American tells crews not to “lock” window shades

As noted by @xJonNYC, American Airlines has sent out a memo to flight attendants reminding them not to lock the window dimmers on the Boeing 787, because “it’s important that each customer at a window can control their own experience.”

Here’s the full memo:

Customers sitting in the window seats enjoy watching take off, landing and even spotting landmarks from the sky. The Boeing 787 windows are larger and have unique controls for window shades. Recent feedback about customer experiences on this aircraft is that the windows are being fully dimmed and locked by flight attendants, leaving customers frustrated that they are unable to control the window features from their seat. Do not lock the window features on the Boeing 787. It’s important that each customer at a window can control their own experience.

https://onemileatatime.com/american-air ... w-dimmers/

In a short note to flight attendants, United reminded them not to “force window shades to darken or lock them at a set level”:

“Remember, on B787s, please don’t use the flight attendant panel to force window shades to darken or lock them at a set level. This prevents customers from adjusting their window shades as they prefer.”

https://liveandletsfly.com/787-window-shades/

Tugg
 
EChid
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:28 pm

Tugger wrote:
dredgy wrote:
Every time I’ve flown on an 787 and cabin crew have dimmed windows, they’ve never been locked and I’ve always been able to turn the brightness back up.
I am someone who loves to look out the windows and much prefer the dimmable windows for this!

It’s always the best of both worlds to me - set the windows dark enough to not intrude on anybody else (and so I can sleep myself) but still be able to see out. Then if I wake up during the flight I can kind look out the window until I doze off again.

If I’m on a plane with window shades, I usually keep them closed out of politeness or desire to sleep so see much less out of the window than on the dimmable ones.

Noboby seems to acknowledge the above post, made with real world experience.

And even at full "dark" the 787 window (using as a proxy for the A350) is not "black" and impossible to see out of for daylight viewing (which is when the crew does cabin-wide darkening).

Tugg

This has been precisely my experience too (and, as others have posted, is the experience that several airlines have since directed their FAs to provide). I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. As stated, the physical shades actually make the experience worse because their is no 'middle ground' - it's either nothing or too bright, and as a result I often just keep them closed.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:29 pm

Does anyone know of the reliability of these systems? I've been on one fairly new 787 and my window control was broken. The other rows worked but mine stayed on the brightest setting. I've been on other fairly new 787s where the buttons were falling apart.
 
studentlife
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:52 pm

Personally, I don’t think it’s that bad, as on my sole 787 flight (AA), the FA’s didn’t lock the windows. I don’t really understand the point though, because it just doesn’t work as well as shades for darkening the cabin.

Will Airbus be ripping out the physical shades, or will they have both shades and dimmers?
 
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Polot
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:56 pm

studentlife wrote:

Will Airbus be ripping out the physical shades, or will they have both shades and dimmers?

They will certainly be ripping out the shades. No need to have both- that is just more weight and maintenance.
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 1548
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:12 pm

Tugger wrote:
dredgy wrote:
Every time I’ve flown on an 787 and cabin crew have dimmed windows, they’ve never been locked and I’ve always been able to turn the brightness back up.
I am someone who loves to look out the windows and much prefer the dimmable windows for this!

It’s always the best of both worlds to me - set the windows dark enough to not intrude on anybody else (and so I can sleep myself) but still be able to see out. Then if I wake up during the flight I can kind look out the window until I doze off again.

If I’m on a plane with window shades, I usually keep them closed out of politeness or desire to sleep so see much less out of the window than on the dimmable ones.

Noboby seems to acknowledge the above post, made with real world experience.

And even at full "dark" the 787 window (using as a proxy for the A350) is not "black" and impossible to see out of for daylight viewing (which is when the crew does cabin-wide darkening).

Tugg


Obviously dredgy has been very lucky on his 787 flights, I've been fortunate enough to avoid the 787 so far but almost everyone I know who flew it had their windows dimmed and locked. I think the crew-override feature makes them the worst of both worlds actually, window seat fans who pay for seat assignment like yours truly get to see a hideous silhouette of the beautiful views while nervous flyers who sometimes get randomly assigned a window seat get terrified 'cause they can still see outside. Doing away with the crew-override feature is the best solution IMHO, I do realize that'll never happen! :mad:


Tugger wrote:
Apparently it has been an issue and the airlines have directed staff to not interfere with customers that wish to lighten the window for better viewing:


I hope more and more airlines will do that, I bet they received a ton of complaints from pax who paid for window seats and had their windows unfairly dimmed.


EChid wrote:
This has been precisely my experience too (and, as others have posted, is the experience that several airlines have since directed their FAs to provide). I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. As stated, the physical shades actually make the experience worse because their is no 'middle ground' - it's either nothing or too bright, and as a result I often just keep them closed.


This middle ground is like looking through a welder's helmet, absolutely ugly dark view!

Polot wrote:
studentlife wrote:

Will Airbus be ripping out the physical shades, or will they have both shades and dimmers?

They will certainly be ripping out the shades. No need to have both- that is just more weight and maintenance.


The A350 unlike the 787 already has shades designed for it, I'm hoping that shades without dimmable windows will still be an option.
 
B747forever
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:32 pm

Was on yet another 787 flight yesterday on AC LHR-YVR in which the crew locked the window at the darkest setting for the majority of the flight. This is a mid day 2:10pm to 3:30pm westbound flight, so really not meant for creating a dark cabin for 7 hours. Just HATE the override function crew have.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:58 pm

B747forever wrote:
Was on yet another 787 flight yesterday on AC LHR-YVR in which the crew locked the window at the darkest setting for the majority of the flight. This is a mid day 2:10pm to 3:30pm westbound flight, so really not meant for creating a dark cabin for 7 hours. Just HATE the override function crew have.


Complain to them, demand a refund for your seat selection fee, there's absolutely no need to forcibly dim the windows on a westbound flight that departs and arrives well within daytime hours.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 512
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Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:44 pm

Opus99 wrote:
A350 deliveries will have dimmable windows from next year and it will be standard on all aircraft. I personally love dimmable windows but I know it’s like marmite. Either you really like it or you really hate it.

Thoughts?

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 56962?s=21


Will come in handy when it's time to restrict people from being able to see things outside that some do not want them to see.

Chinese carriers do this from time to time, and window seat passengers are not happy at all, but have no choice.

Restrictions come in many forms.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 5146
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:25 pm

B747forever wrote:
Was on yet another 787 flight yesterday on AC LHR-YVR in which the crew locked the window at the darkest setting for the majority of the flight. This is a mid day 2:10pm to 3:30pm westbound flight, so really not meant for creating a dark cabin for 7 hours. Just HATE the override function crew have.

Tweet, Instagram and use the website feedback. No, REALLY, please.
 
Adipocere
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:55 am

Since windows are electronically controlled - can the airline have a way to charge the passenger for opening the shades? Maybe an economic solution like $50/ hour to have a shade open will efficiently allocate “shade-up” time to those who really want/ value it and prevent unnecessary usage that bothers other people.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:02 am

oldJoe wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
The inevitable has happened! :mad: Airbus did announce that they'll offer them at the beginning of last year. Thanks to this awful feature, enjoying the beauty of planet Earth from the air will become a thing of the past in the not so distant future. :banghead:


Heinkel wrote:

You are right. Good analogy. It is like Marmite / Vegemite. 90% of the population really hates it - me included.

It is not the dimmed windows per se, it is the fact, that - depending on the airline - the crew has the control if you can look out of the window or not.

When I fly, I want a window seat, if ever available. And why? because I want to look out of the window! I don't want, that anyone else controls the shaders or the dimmable windows. Period.


Airlines and their cabin crews love these windows 'cause they allow them to keep as many pax as possible asleep by darkening the cabin for much of the flight, more pax asleep = less workload for the cabin crew, it's that simple.


What do you want to see during a night flight over an ocean besides the outside lighting of the wings? I can not imagine that it is so exciting to look at for hours?
I have never been on a flight with the windows dimmed down during the day!

Aurora Borealis
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:02 am

LAXLHR wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
A350 deliveries will have dimmable windows from next year and it will be standard on all aircraft. I personally love dimmable windows but I know it’s like marmite. Either you really like it or you really hate it.

Thoughts?

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 56962?s=21


Will come in handy when it's time to restrict people from being able to see things outside that some do not want them to see.

Chinese carriers do this from time to time, and window seat passengers are not happy at all, but have no choice.

Restrictions come in many forms.

Can you elaborate on this? Where exactly do Chinese carriers do this?
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4929
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: A350 Dimmable Windows will be standard from next Year

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:09 pm

skipness1E wrote:
None of those many, many words mean anything for those of us in Economy who might just want to watch the sunset at 30,000ft or watch the enormity of New York and JFK/LGA pass on the right hand side as you head towards Miami. Such are memories made of....
Without overcomplicating things, this is one of THE basics of flying, that folk in a window seat are being denied the benefit of a window.

Sleep cabin is not, not, NOT neutral. It's a conscious decision to get people to nap, and frankly, if I am shelling out hundreds of pounds, that's kind of contrary to my expectations, I don't like being "managed" in that way.


Well said, Skipness

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