Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:53 pm

Denying customers is not and cut and dried as it would seem in the USA.

There is so much tax money that goes into the system, that it is very difficult to ban a taxpayer from using those services. The interstate highway system is supported by the federal tax system. If you pay your taxes you have a right to use those roads.....just like the airports. (Losing your drivers lesson is a different thing, even then you can still ride in a car).

I reiterate that gate agents should stop boarding drunks. That's on the airline, and upon reflection I think that is the focus of the FAA here.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:05 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I reiterate that gate agents should stop boarding drunks. That's on the airline, and upon reflection I think that is the focus of the FAA here.


The problem is the level of interaction it takes to scan your boarding pass is not nearly enough for agents to identify whether or not someone is intoxicated most times.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:29 pm

alasizon wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I reiterate that gate agents should stop boarding drunks. That's on the airline, and upon reflection I think that is the focus of the FAA here.


The problem is the level of interaction it takes to scan your boarding pass is not nearly enough for agents to identify whether or not someone is intoxicated most times.


That's a good point, especially in the era of reduced manning on the gates, one agent working a flight. But again, that's on the airlines. Cutting everything to the bone in an effort to lower prices lower lower lower and make money even with LCC'S.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 850
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:08 pm

A lot of times customers will snitch on their fellow customers if they are watching them guzzle alcohol in the gate area. Then that focuses attention on the suspect and if they show any signs of intoxication, they are off.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8602
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:50 am

Here’s the FBI report,

https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com ... 442285.pdf

Make of it what you will, but why are we assuming it’s a case of drunk passenger who can’t handle his anxiety?
 
XaraB
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:23 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:00 am

Easy fix; raise the bar as to what is considered an unruly passenger. Numbers will drop in an instant.

Seriously though, as some other posters have noted, this is probably more of a general cultural issue in society than an airline (or transportation) related issue. Bans, public humilitation, visible enforcement etc. are poor short term solutions. The real fix takes a couple of decades to implement, and involves teaching our teenagers how to behave in public. The rules to be enforced should be as similar to whatever civil law practice is going on outside the airport perimeter; there really should be no need to have stricter rules or enforcement within an airport or an airplane than outside (this will probably work in Europe, I have my doubts about the US...)

On another note, a better short term solution would be to have alcohol free airports. Even better, check everyone for drug or alcohol influence. But alas, assuming that both airports and airlines draw a significant amount of revenue from alcoholic beverages, this will never happen, Yes, we are all deeply concerned about your safety and convenience, as long as we don't have to pay for it...
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 3004
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Biden Addresses Issue of 'Unruly' Passengers

Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:17 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/07/politics ... index.html

"The comments came during a speech near Chicago, where Biden was highlighting his administration's push toward Covid-19 vaccine requirements.
Speaking in the direction of United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby, who joined Biden for the speech in Elk Grove Village, the President said, "Scott, I want you to know I instructed the Justice Department to make sure that we deal with the violence on aircraft coming from those people who are taking issues."
"We're going to deal with that," the President added."

Great to see this has the attention of the current administration. Looking forward to seeing if something significant comes out of this.
 
Blockplus
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:53 am

Hypercapnia coupled with mild hypoxia. Selling small O2 bottles and co2 scrubbers for exhalates while on the plane might help. It is ,in my experience, not alcohol. Just got done with a day over Chicago center and heard 3 …..3 medical emergencies on the Same frequency. All with symptoms of hypercapnia and mild hypoxia. Just had a medical divert last week. Same symptoms in flight, once on O2 and after landing, symptoms disappear…. Strange, or is it.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Here’s the FBI report,

https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com ... 442285.pdf

Make of it what you will, but why are we assuming it’s a case of drunk passenger who can’t handle his anxiety?

6 or 7 flight crew members on a a320 restraining passenger? Could be the case of a drunk FBI agent as well.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 am

1. Just bring back basic free onboard catering and people will get back to normal blood sugar levels and more relaxed social interactions. Any 20 cent candy bar will be good enough.
2. Don't let passengers rot in lines for hours before, between and after flights.
3. Bring back a little more respect to the customer.

Fortunately many airlines and airports are already starting to implement this.
 
challeygat300
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:02 pm

Noshow wrote:
1. Just bring back basic free onboard catering and people will get back to normal blood sugar levels and more relaxed social interactions. Any 20 cent candy bar will be good enough.
2. Don't let passengers rot in lines for hours before, between and after flights.
3. Bring back a little more respect to the customer.

Fortunately many airlines and airports are already starting to implement this.


Give them more toys so they have fewer temper tantrums? More respect for the children?

Nah

They need to follow the law and to respect that crews are not simply rule-happy sky wardens. NOBODY IS HAVING FUN/ENJOYING HAVING TO POLICE STUPIDITY. Crews are just doing a job that is handed down by the companies. Respect them THEN expect increased “affection”.

The vast majority of PAX who are chill and compliant deserve to be there. The crews working have to be there. The jerks with “low blood sugar” or whatever who think “I’m the customer so I’m right” can either pack a snack or pack a car.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:52 pm

Isn't one issue that crew are not dutifully sworn officers of the law and so do not have "I witnessed this and you are under arrest and my testimony will convict you" power. Instead it goes through several steps from the incident to crew reaction/solution to the ground authorities to the witness statements and available videos and company desire to push the case and legal systems ability to press a case etc?

That is a terrible way to "enforce" anything.

I say video with audio in all aircraft every six rows or so, looking forward and back, so there is full coverage. It can only be pulled if there is an incident (or whatever the legal term is). That is your "witness" and various authorities will have their proof to press whatever case is needed. Followed by nationwide, all airlines, no fly status for the person(s) found guilty (or termination if crew is found to be the culprit for some odd reason) for a set minimum time (5 years?).

Tugg
 
tootallsd
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:57 pm

Universal, transparent no-fly lists operated by the TSA -- isn't that what it should be for?
 
Noshow
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:33 pm

The vast majority of PAX who are chill and compliant deserve to be there. The crews working have to be there. The jerks with “low blood sugar” or whatever who think “I’m the customer so I’m right” can either pack a snack or pack a car.


The crowds are stressed by long waits, inspections, masks, security, walks and such. Wouldn't it be easy as a services industry to give them a little goodie here and there, like a can to drink or some food to make the industry's life easier? Why did all this established and well known art of customer care got lost over the years? Too much growth? I agree that the final idiots should be put on no fly lists but the majority of air travellers just needs to be treated a little more friendly again.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5155
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
Isn't one issue that crew are not dutifully sworn officers of the law and so do not have "I witnessed this and you are under arrest and my testimony will convict you" power. Instead it goes through several steps from the incident to crew reaction/solution to the ground authorities to the witness statements and available videos and company desire to push the case and legal systems ability to press a case etc?

That is a terrible way to "enforce" anything.

I say video with audio in all aircraft every six rows or so, looking forward and back, so there is full coverage. It can only be pulled if there is an incident (or whatever the legal term is). That is your "witness" and various authorities will have their proof to press whatever case is needed. Followed by nationwide, all airlines, no fly status for the person(s) found guilty (or termination if crew is found to be the culprit for some odd reason) for a set minimum time (5 years?).

Tugg


More important than heavy fines or being on the no fly list for a long time is fast action after an offense. Someone having to appear before an aviation judge after the first offense is likely to learn a lesson. Taking 2-3 years to resolve a case is bad policy, and tends to be ineffective.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:08 pm

Yes, agreed, either the action occurred or it did not and upon warning was continued or was not.

He is another example where they need to press charges:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/09/faa-pla ... ident.html
A senior law enforcement official briefed on the incident said the passenger was unruly and when confronted by the flight crew allegedly suggested he had a device aboard the plane.


I think the person needs to be fined for the cost involved in the diversion (including taking passenger impacts into consideration). Jail time may be avoidable but no-fly list for sure.

Tugg
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:37 pm

Dumping the mask requirement might be a decent start. Just sayin
 
ozark1
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:46 pm

What a total joke. This is exactly the kind of relationship that the FAA has had with the commercial aviation industry for 40 years. But this one does take the cake. Since they are the agency that would (supposedly) have to approve any rules the airlines decide upon, what do they want the carriers to do? Gather representatives from each airline in DC to have them make suggestions? AA could bring a taser, DL could have mace, WN could have certain bags of peanuts that have cyanide in them ( kept in a locked galley compartment), etc, etc. The airlines should be asking the FAA what THEY propose to do about it. Everything has to be agreed to by them anyway. To me, this is the most pathetic attempt to try and show that they know what they are doing, by telling those doggone airlines to get their acts together. Hmm, the U.S. delayed a decision to ground the 737 MAX, while they were already sitting in the desert in other countries. Did you know that the head of the FAA is a former Delta pilot? Naw, no conflict of interest there. So now theyve slapped the hands of all the US carriers, meanwhile, somewhere above the country (origination or destination is probably Miami), a flight attendant is slapped and another gets a broken nose.
 
WNbob
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:36 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:51 pm

So Airlines are asking the FAA to do something, and FAA in turn asks Airlines to do something. Great.

I recently witnessed a violent passenger, for sure I thought they are not going to let her on, but THEY DID! left me aghast. Overheard the lady crying about going to see a dying family member, meanwhile throwing stuff on the floor, loud like children at tantrum-max. Airlines are forever such p--sies, first they fight for every customer, second they are horrified of ANY bad publicity and are actively monitoring social media, in REAL TIME! man, worse than teenagers on their phones.

To you, if you witness such incident, you have the right to ask the airline to rebook you on another flight, if you don't want the crazy to fly in your plane, assuming your schedule allows.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4812
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:27 pm

WNbob wrote:
So Airlines are asking the FAA to do something, and FAA in turn asks Airlines to do something. Great.

I recently witnessed a violent passenger, for sure I thought they are not going to let her on, but THEY DID! left me aghast. Overheard the lady crying about going to see a dying family member, meanwhile throwing stuff on the floor, loud like children at tantrum-max. Airlines are forever such p--sies, first they fight for every customer, second they are horrified of ANY bad publicity and are actively monitoring social media, in REAL TIME! man, worse than teenagers on their phones.

To you, if you witness such incident, you have the right to ask the airline to rebook you on another flight, if you don't want the crazy to fly in your plane, assuming your schedule allows.


The airlines are in a no-win situation. They do not have the authority to enforce any of the rules, only refer to them to the FAA or law enforcement. Cops take forever to show up at the airport and often are not interested in writing any citations or arresting anybody. The officer does not want to go to court to be a witness and are already apprehensive about it because of federal vs local jurisdiction. The airline does not want to send someone to be a witness. The employee does not want to be in the spotlight. Many just shrug their shoulders because in the end nothing ever happens even when cops show up. The TSA has no law enforcement authority. It’s such a grey area for everybody involved that ends up with the troublemakers getting a free pass to continue to behave like bungholes.

Either allow the airlines to issue citations or hire a bunch of federal police officers to be on duty at airports instead of relying on the local police department who are too busy with doing anything but law enforcement.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 850
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:28 pm

Is anyone really surprised? The FAA is deep in bed with the airlines. Anyone remember the last set of laws passed by congress directing the FAA to give Flight Attendants at least 10 hours rest between duty shifts? Years ago and still crickets from the FAA and the airlines are MORE THAN happen to whistle innocently and claim they are waiting on the FAA for "direction"

Total joke.
 
Douglas7Seas
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:00 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:29 pm

Civilizing the uncivilized is a tall order for an airline.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23119
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:26 pm

Douglas7Seas wrote:
Civilizing the uncivilized is a tall order for an airline.

It shouldn't be the job of the airlines. They should have resources to call upon. They are not the police, they are not the CDC. Unfortunately, with how long this problem has occured, we're not going to like the solution.

Lightsaber
 
challeygat300
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:45 pm

Noshow wrote:
The vast majority of PAX who are chill and compliant deserve to be there. The crews working have to be there. The jerks with “low blood sugar” or whatever who think “I’m the customer so I’m right” can either pack a snack or pack a car.


The crowds are stressed by long waits, inspections, masks, security, walks and such. Wouldn't it be easy as a services industry to give them a little goodie here and there, like a can to drink or some food to make the industry's life easier? Why did all this established and well known art of customer care got lost over the years? Too much growth? I agree that the final idiots should be put on no fly lists but the majority of air travellers just needs to be treated a little more friendly again.


Waits, inspections, security, walks have been going on for 20 years or more. Anecdotally, airport waits have been shorter than ever since last March. Many airports have been/still are only using parts of the terminal so flights/transfers are closer together.

For decades, Americans have continually voted with ballots for corporations who care only about to have all the power and with their wallets for the cheapest version of everything. Combine those 2 and you realize that you can’t have profits and cheap tickets and endless pampering to assuage all your bad attitudes. Again it is not on the crews to pamper passengers. Crews will use their available resources to make things easier but stop expecting crews to fix every issue.

Want friendly treatment? Quit leaving your common sense in the bins at security
 
challeygat300
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:47 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Is anyone really surprised? The FAA is deep in bed with the airlines. Anyone remember the last set of laws passed by congress directing the FAA to give Flight Attendants at least 10 hours rest between duty shifts? Years ago and still crickets from the FAA and the airlines are MORE THAN happen to whistle innocently and claim they are waiting on the FAA for "direction"

Total joke.



Absolutely crazy how labor-favoring laws can go 3+ years abs still not be implemented. SOME airlines were more proactive and went ahead and found implementation within the first 12 months. but some others…..??
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10211
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 pm

Noshow wrote:
The vast majority of PAX who are chill and compliant deserve to be there. The crews working have to be there. The jerks with “low blood sugar” or whatever who think “I’m the customer so I’m right” can either pack a snack or pack a car.


The crowds are stressed by long waits, inspections, masks, security, walks and such. Wouldn't it be easy as a services industry to give them a little goodie here and there, like a can to drink or some food to make the industry's life easier? Why did all this established and well known art of customer care got lost over the years? Too much growth?


It's pretty well established that passengers won't pay for better treatment (or, for many, even seat pitch). Spirit was still growing and making money in the bad old days; people still bought AA in spite of a series of peristently poor metrics (on-time, cancellation, baggage handling, IDB) in 2019.

Can Delta command an extra $10 a segment for rolling out a pizza party and bev carts when a flight is delayed more than a hour? I doubt it.

The U.S. domestic industry is still pretty competitive on city-pairs (if a little less so on airport pairs) in all major markets. Add in a connection and it's very competitive. It's pretty good at giving people what they'll pay for - but that's not always the same as what people want.

I agree with the point on crew not being law enforcement. That detail makes prosecution difficult. Unilateral bans without demands for due process and standards for evidence aren't going to work, either. U.S. air carriers are common carriers - have been for decades, and that's how they want it. They don't get to pick their passengers.

The good-old days of regulated routes and prices, fancy meals, and 7% returns with planes flying 55% load factors -- forget it. That's when flying was pretty much a luxury good. But ask yourself when it became OK to be boorish and beligerent in public.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:01 pm

This time I don't come from the "customer satisfaction"-side of things. I'm coming from the "get calm and relaxed passengers fastest and cheapest"-side. Calling the police having flights delayed or cancelled and people arrested will be costlier. Feed them just a bit, do all those old school tricks from muzak to nicer passenger announcements already invented to relax them. Obviously there is some issue brewing and what is done is not enough. Does maybe the seat pitch need to be increased with all of us having gained weight during the pandemic times?
 
oldJoe
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:34 pm

Noshow wrote:
This time I don't come from the "customer satisfaction"-side of things. I'm coming from the "get calm and relaxed passengers fastest and cheapest"-side. Calling the police having flights delayed or cancelled and people arrested will be costlier. Feed them just a bit, do all those old school tricks from muzak to nicer passenger announcements already invented to relax them. Obviously there is some issue brewing and what is done is not enough. Does maybe the seat pitch need to be increased with all of us having gained weight during the pandemic times?


Feed them just a bit when they have gained weight during pandemic times ? How much you want them to gain more ?
 
Noshow
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:36 pm

Just don't fight your customers.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:50 pm

Noshow wrote:
Just don't fight your customers.


What would you do if one or more disrespectful, rampaging customers meet you, smile and feed them? In my experience, they don't want snacks but alcohol or things that they can't get on board or somewhere else legally.
I was once on a sold out 350-seat flight. Three passengers came on board already drunk. Shortly after the takeoff, two of them vomited right behind me.and then refused to eat but asked for more alcohol. I didn't want to endure the stench for another 4 hours and asked a male FA to keep things tidy, which he did.Even the massive statue of the FA made no impression on the three until he pulled out the biggest cracker over two seats. My question now is whether the airline prefers 3 passengers who riot and pollute the aircraft over the other 347 passengers ? The problem lies completely elsewhere, namely that in recent years the lack of respect and readiness for violence as well as arrogance/ignorance has increased significantly in all areas of life.
Good luck fixing that with a few snacks !
 
USAirKid
Posts: 915
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:09 am

Noshow wrote:
This time I don't come from the "customer satisfaction"-side of things. I'm coming from the "get calm and relaxed passengers fastest and cheapest"-side. Calling the police having flights delayed or cancelled and people arrested will be costlier. Feed them just a bit, do all those old school tricks from muzak to nicer passenger announcements already invented to relax them. Obviously there is some issue brewing and what is done is not enough. Does maybe the seat pitch need to be increased with all of us having gained weight during the pandemic times?


You'd think some of these could be reasonably cheap, such as boarding music of public domain music or something the airline paid to have composed and recorded. (Don't scoff, they could probably hire someone to do that for inside of $10k and they'd own it to use as they'd like for years.

I'm betting the airlines have done the numbers on how much increasing food service will cost versus how much it'll save in disruptions. Thats a lotta food to possibly prevent one incident.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:32 am

Airlines were cost optimised for years getting rid of so many comfort features and putting in more seats for tighter seating. People fight over carry on space and schlepp their stuff upstairs and downstairs and onboard their flights. Now in times of additional stress, like terror fear and covid, having to wear masks this bites back. Instead of going the suppression route some have voted for my advice is to bring back some of the most basic comfort features airlines want to sell separately but everybody needs. Like something to drink or a chocolate bar because this is cheaper. Cost savings just went a tiny bit too far. No surprise the average Joe is close to the edge these days. It feels like nobody is connecting the dots between creature comfort and unruly behaviour.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4925
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:35 am

Noshow wrote:
Airlines were cost optimised for years getting rid of so many comfort features and putting in more seats for tighter seating. People fight over carry on space and schlepp their stuff upstairs and downstairs and onboard their flights. Now in times of additional stress, like terror fear and covid, having to wear masks this bites back. Instead of going the suppression route some have voted for my advice is to bring back some of the most basic comfort features airlines want to sell separately but everybody needs. Like something to drink or a chocolate bar because this is cheaper. Cost savings just went a tiny bit too far. No surprise the average Joe is close to the edge these days. It feels like nobody is connecting the dots between creature comfort and unruly behaviour.


Not a valid reason, sorry. Yes, the industry and how it is managed has made flying increasingly unpleasant but leaving it up to the airlines themselves to find a way to deal with unruly passengers is ludicrous. In the US, Federal mandates are needed, making disruptions a criminal offense, carrying heavy fines, prison sentences, and long duration (or lifetime bans) on commercial air travel. While not a uniquely American problem, it does seem to be happening at a much higher rate in the US than elsewhere and that is a reflection on the state of country just as much as it is on the need for federal criminal charges to be applied to those committing these acts on planes.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:53 am

My point was it is just cheaper to solve the problem instead of going for it's symptoms.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:16 pm

Noshow wrote:
My point was it is just Ocheaper to solve the problem instead of going for it's symptoms.

US poorly understands good will. Bring in the legislation.
Copying EU261/204 would be a good start. 3 hours for the compensation to kick in is a bit too liberal. 60 or 30 minutes would be better.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1738
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:41 pm

As a station manager I deal with this crap all the time. This is NOT being caused by security or lack of amenities. By and large it is being caused by assholes, people who would display this behavior anywhere.
These incidents primarily triggered by 3 things:

Alcohol - This could be drastically reduced simply by eliminating alcohol sales in the airport. Responsible party - local governments.

Carryon bag fees - Airlines make clear that these fees will be applied and what the fees are. Some Pax don't read their terms of carriage. Others think they can sneak by without paying. Pax in both groups throw an attitude when called out on their bs. Sometimes they carry that onto the plane. Solution - Build an extra $50 into every airfare for every pax regardless of having a bag or not and drop the separate fee. Responsible party - Pax for their irresponsibility and behavior, Airlines for creating an arena for confrontation.

Masks - This is 100% the fault of government and should just simply be done away with. It's a polarizing subject in the first place but just try rationalizing the difference between a restaurant, bus or theater and an airplane.

The primary causes of these incidents belong on the shoulders of government and the Pax themselves. In some ways the Airlines do contribute to a degree but they are neither the cause of nor the solution to the problem.
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Flaps wrote:
As a station manager I deal with this crap all the time. This is NOT being caused by security or lack of amenities. By and large it is being caused by assholes, people who would display this behavior anywhere.
These incidents primarily triggered by 3 things:

Alcohol - This could be drastically reduced simply by eliminating alcohol sales in the airport. Responsible party - local governments.

Carryon bag fees - Airlines make clear that these fees will be applied and what the fees are. Some Pax don't read their terms of carriage. Others think they can sneak by without paying. Pax in both groups throw an attitude when called out on their bs. Sometimes they carry that onto the plane. Solution - Build an extra $50 into every airfare for every pax regardless of having a bag or not and drop the separate fee. Responsible party - Pax for their irresponsibility and behavior, Airlines for creating an arena for confrontation.

Masks - This is 100% the fault of government and should just simply be done away with. It's a polarizing subject in the first place but just try rationalizing the difference between a restaurant, bus or theater and an airplane.

The primary causes of these incidents belong on the shoulders of government and the Pax themselves. In some ways the Airlines do contribute to a degree but they are neither the cause of nor the solution to the problem.


Yup. I’ve seen plenty of station managers say it’s simply the mask stories we hear about now but in reality even pre Covid there was and still is a high number of pax incidents on flights every day involving violence or foul language towards flight attendants. We simply never heard about it unless it was an exceptional incident like that nut beating the FAs over the head with wine bottles on that transpacific flight a few years back. I do think the mask mandate will end in the spring. Not because it should, but because it’s political and we have a pretty big election next fall and they will want to play nice the anti mask crowd and not rile them up.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:05 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
I do think the mask mandate will end in the spring. Not because it should, but because it’s political and we have a pretty big election next fall and they will want to play nice the anti mask crowd and not rile them up.

It will end because the passengers and crew will be vaccinated, lifting the need for masking.

Though I suspect that there will still be a solid percentage of passengers (25-30%?) that will continue to fly with a mask for a long time going forward.

Tugg
 
Elementalism
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:27 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Universal no-fly lists and hefty fines. Get the riff raff out of the sky.


US already has a no-fly list. It is run so well US senators and children are placed on it.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5155
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:11 pm

Elementalism wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Universal no-fly lists and hefty fines. Get the riff raff out of the sky.


US already has a no-fly list. It is run so well US senators and children are placed on it.


This is what can happen when an integrated system is not put in place. Those kids on the list had no formal means of appeal. (Senators rightfully have privileges). We need some sort of Aviation Judicial system. For passengers, workers, for the security and safety of the US. Not only would that expedite the more minor cases, in the case of serious assaults/crimes the Aviation system would have some clout in referring cases to the appropriate prosecutors and judicial systems. This is a complex problem - city, state, federal, and sometimes even international treaties can all get involved.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos