Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Topic Author
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:33 am

FAA asks airlines to 'take more action' in curbing unruly passenger incidents

The FAA wants to hear within a week what steps carriers will take to address the issue

https://twitter.com/FAA_Steve/status/14 ... 5830228994

The FAA's appeal for assistance from airlines is its latest move in a crackdown against passengers that don't follow mask guidelines or who become violent on flights. Last month, Dickson wrote a letter asking airports to ramp up arrests when incidents are reported and to step up enforcement of alcohol violations. The agency earlier this year issued a zero-tolerance policy and has imposed hefty fines totaling more than $1 million against passengers found to be responsible for in-flight disturbances. The Biden administration moved recently to double such fines for mask violations.

There has been an unprecedented surge in violent and disorderly passenger reports this year, fueled largely – but not entirely – by mask violations as frustrations mount over continued regulations aimed at curbing COVID-19 on commercial flights.


https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/fa ... -incidents

So the FAA is offering no guidelines, and just wants suggestions from the airlines. I guess that will work.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5945
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:45 am

Upgrade from duct tape to speed tape?
:duck:
 
alasizon
Posts: 3077
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:48 am

I'm sorry, the FAA (part of who's job is aviation safety) wants to know what the carriers are going to do to curb passenger behavior?? 90% of disruptive passengers aren't arrested so unless the FAA is going to provide enhanced guidance and funding to airport police, nothing is going to change.
 
battlegroup62
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:05 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:02 am

Francoflier wrote:
Upgrade from duct tape to speed tape?
:duck:

Handcuffs that will slit your wrists by accident :x Definitely a deterrent to struggling.
Last edited by battlegroup62 on Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
trent768
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:32 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:06 am

That sounds super weird. As if the cops asked us "a'ight, what do you guys wants us to do to the robbers? Come on now, don't be shy!".

I'm not an American so I don't really know how the system works. But for me it looks like that the government asked the big business to set up rules that will be eventually turned in to law. Which is weird and usually not a very good idea.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3077
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:12 am

trent768 wrote:
That sounds super weird. As if the cops asked us "a'ight, what do you guys wants us to do to the robbers? Come on now, don't be shy!".

I'm not an American so I don't really know how the system works. But for me it looks like that the government asked the big business to set up rules that will be eventually turned in to law. Which is weird and usually not a very good idea.


It's not even asking the airlines to setup the laws, it's more akin to asking car manufacturers how they are going to stop people from stealing cars and what they are going to do to enforce it.
 
Flydude1063
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:39 am

Allowing flight crews to carry tasers would be a step in the right direction. :bouncy:
 
sibibom
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:51 am

Perhaps an IQ test before boarding?

Jokes apart have they considered the effect of smaller/narrower/tighter seat pitch along with growing size of Americans causing discomfort leading to such outburst....
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:15 am

How about all passengers with a black bag over the head, and handcuffed to the seat. On a bright note no more arguments over the dimming windows on the 787s
 
User avatar
jeffreyklm
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:21 am

sibibom wrote:
Perhaps an IQ test before boarding?

Jokes apart have they considered the effect of smaller/narrower/tighter seat pitch along with growing size of Americans causing discomfort leading to such outburst....


Not the easiest correlation to prove causality. However, I do think there's a small link but I think most of the problems arise from (in their opinion!) poor service or disrupted operations.

I do hope that the FAA asked for the airlines' expert judgement and will empower the airport police and the airlines to take more action instead of just pointing fingers.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3902
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 am

Francoflier wrote:
Upgrade from duct tape to speed tape?
:duck:


That will teach them. When they try to get it off that is.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 6013
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:35 am

Universal no-fly lists and hefty fines. Get the riff raff out of the sky.
 
TXL4ever
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:21 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:53 am

not a bad idea to request input from those who have to deal with the issue on a day to day basis (aka the airlines) and then see what additional measures would be needed/helpful.

This is not a US-only issue, not a too-wide-a$§ in a too-narrow-seat issue, not a too-much-booze-in thin-air issue... I have experienced similar stuff on board planes in Europe and am frustrated about the ignorance people display (reg. masks) onboard trains as well...
 
kalvado
Posts: 3392
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:04 am

alasizon wrote:
trent768 wrote:
That sounds super weird. As if the cops asked us "a'ight, what do you guys wants us to do to the robbers? Come on now, don't be shy!".

I'm not an American so I don't really know how the system works. But for me it looks like that the government asked the big business to set up rules that will be eventually turned in to law. Which is weird and usually not a very good idea.


It's not even asking the airlines to setup the laws, it's more akin to asking car manufacturers how they are going to stop people from stealing cars and what they are going to do to enforce it.

I wonder who came up with the idea of car keys with chips - manufacturers, regulators, or some unlucky engineer who's car was stolen?
It is certainly not a bad idea to get some input from those who would be implementing those measures. Hopefully they gave that issue some thought by now.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:20 am

How about actually arresting and charging these idiots that are doing it to start with? If nothing happens to these people they will continue to do it. It was so incredibly irritating when I dated a Customer Service Supervisor at my airline and she would tell me about people acting a fool and having to call Cleveland Police to the gate just for the police to escort them out with no arrest and no charges.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10191
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:21 am

TXL4ever wrote:
not a bad idea to request input from those who have to deal with the issue on a day to day basis (aka the airlines) and then see what additional measures would be needed/helpful.


U.S. Federal rulemaking routinely asks for public comment - from industry and citizens.

There's probably a provision for an emergency order that wouldn't require a public comment period - but that risks carriers acting butt-hurt and saying they weren't consulted, the rule is an unreasonable burden, blah blah blah.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10191
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:28 am

kalvado wrote:
I wonder who came up with the idea of car keys with chips - manufacturers, regulators, or some unlucky engineer who's car was stolen?


Off-topic, but it was brought to market by GM in the mid-80s, with one of 15 resistor values, under the name Vehicle Anti-Theft System (VATS). If the value matched, the security module would send a signal to ground at the engine computer on a certain frequency. In the U.S., other manufactuers started using non-contact SAW devices in the mid-90s after knowledge of how to defeat VATS had become fairly commonplace, requiring only the simplest of tools.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3392
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:48 am

[twoid][/twoid]
737MAX7 wrote:
How about actually arresting and charging these idiots that are doing it to start with? If nothing happens to these people they will continue to do it. It was so incredibly irritating when I dated a Customer Service Supervisor at my airline and she would tell me about people acting a fool and having to call Cleveland Police to the gate just for the police to escort them out with no arrest and no charges.

There is an ongoing dispute if death penalty actually does anything in terms of crime prevention. Fines are not likely to have a lot of deterrent effect, especially as they would be handled mostly out of view for general public.
Police involvement may be the most effective part of it as it is seen by thousands of passengers in the terminal.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23102
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:08 pm

alasizon wrote:
I'm sorry, the FAA (part of who's job is aviation safety) wants to know what the carriers are going to do to curb passenger behavior?? 90% of disruptive passengers aren't arrested so unless the FAA is going to provide enhanced guidance and funding to airport police, nothing is going to change.

This is the issue, we live in a society where the consequences for poor behavior have gone away.

I'm not saying during Covid19 airline travel is fun (it isn't like it used to be pre-TSA, that is for sure).

Airlines have a problem. They need help. Perma bans from flying is a start.

Lightsaber
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5146
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:43 pm

Corrections invited, but it seems there are some broken jurisdiction problems. I suspect local law enforcement really does not want to spend money dealing with violent passengers who will be flying off to another state or country three days later. Airline law enforcement likely needs to be federalized, with enforcement and courts specifically dealing only with aviation related issues. A 'no fly' order should be able to applied to all airlines. This would put teeth into enforcement. On the other hand passengers with a grievance should be able to go to the aviation court and receive redress. And as I have mentioned repeatedly at least some cabin crew should have law enforcement and de-escalation training . FAs have made erroneous interpretation of laws and regulations along with inappropriate threats to passengers. It is unfair to FAs to expect them to deal with difficult situations (whether passenger or airline is at fault) without the backing of a senior FA who has training. I think I have observed correctly that FAA enforcement takes months to resolve. Effective recourse for or against a passenger should be resolved within days or weeks.
 
IAmGaroott
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:37 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:53 pm

Make an example out of a few people and this will stop. Give a lifetime flight ban to the next 10 people who are forcibly removed and put them on a public list online.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1151
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:57 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
Make an example out of a few people and this will stop. Give a lifetime flight ban to the next 10 people who are forcibly removed and put them on a public list online.


Sounds like North Korea, I do not hope the USA deals with people that way.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10191
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:01 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
Make an example out of a few people and this will stop. Give a lifetime flight ban to the next 10 people who are forcibly removed and put them on a public list online.


No, that won't work, not any better than the death penalty ends homicides. (Would you have guessed that states with the death penalty have, on average, higher homicide rates than states which do not? Have some fun with FBI data.)

The fools causing the problems lack social skills, a sense of community, and impulse control. They won't be thinking about how driving to Florida next year instead of flying will hurt their quality of life.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect local law enforcement really does not want to spend money dealing with violent passengers who will be flying off to another state or country three days later. Airline law enforcement likely needs to be federalized, with enforcement and courts specifically dealing only with aviation related issues.


I just don't see any stomach for significant expansion of Federal law enforcement in this venue - just zero probabiity of passage in Congress. We're still fighting states rights battles from 1861.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3562
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:02 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
How about actually arresting and charging these idiots that are doing it to start with? If nothing happens to these people they will continue to do it. It was so incredibly irritating when I dated a Customer Service Supervisor at my airline and she would tell me about people acting a fool and having to call Cleveland Police to the gate just for the police to escort them out with no arrest and no charges.


Bingo, one will be surprised how quickly this would stop if people knew for a certainty this will hit their pocket book or effect future travel. Some people may be crazy but they are not stupid.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1753
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm

Let the non-unruly passengers beat the unruly bloody and toss them onto the ramp.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:

If you are incapable of handling your emotions around wearing a mask in flight; then you probably shouldn’t be onboard an airplane, or in public in the first place.

99% of people can comply without throwing a temper tantrum and assaulting people. If you are that easily aggravated then they should be in a mental asylum.

I don’t think anyone particularly likes wearing them, but most people can act like adults and do as they are told.


Exactly. I’ve had people react better to having their flight canceled at the last second (waiting for pushback) than when I tell them they need to wear a little piece of cloth for a few hours.

Sorry but it’s not an excuse. It’s our plane, our rules and we’re told that pax have to wear masks to be on them. If you can’t handle that, then go back to the daycare you belong in.
 
planecane
Posts: 1748
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:07 pm

How about instead of letting it escalate to a violent incident, if a person refuses to wear a mask just tell them if they don't put it on they will be banned from flying the airline and arrested upon arrival. Don't continue to try and force them to wear it. If we're being honest about "the science" inside the aircraft cabin is not a location with a high risk of spread due to the airflow and filtration so letting a person be maskless isn't that big of a deal. It's much "safer" than ending up with a violent confrontation onboard. They just have to be punished after the fact and banned from flying the airline due to not obeying crewmember instructions and arrested.
 
umichman
Posts: 291
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:13 pm

There are always going to be judgement calls here. What's the threshold for judging someone to be in a "fit of rage"? These things are not always black and white. One persons standard may not be the same as another person. I witnessed mask rage on a flight back in March where a pax was escorted off by police after arrival. While his case was pretty obvious (cursing at a FA), I could see other cases where a person might be a little snippy and get accused of "rage".

The problem is that the rule enforcement seems all over the board especially with people eating and drinking on flights. I was in the MIA DL club yesterday and was eating a bowl of soup and apparently paused too long between bites and had a lounge attendant come over and remind me to pull my mask back up. It felt like a bit much as my soup bowl was clearly visible and it was the first time I've been told to put my mask back on while eating in a club and I was tempted to say something snippy back to the attendant (I just said I was finishing up my soup and let it go).
Last edited by umichman on Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2858
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:58 pm

TXL4ever wrote:
not a bad idea to request input from those who have to deal with the issue on a day to day basis (aka the airlines) and then see what additional measures would be needed/helpful.

This is not a US-only issue, not a too-wide-a$§ in a too-narrow-seat issue, not a too-much-booze-in thin-air issue... I have experienced similar stuff on board planes in Europe and am frustrated about the ignorance people display (reg. masks) onboard trains as well...


The seats on. 737's are the same width they have always been.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4655
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:01 pm

Debates about mask requirements do not belong in the aviation forums. They only drag the discussion off topic with politically charged rhetoric. That discussion belongs in Non Av.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
2175301
Posts: 2240
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:03 pm

planecane wrote:
How about instead of letting it escalate to a violent incident, if a person refuses to wear a mask just tell them if they don't put it on they will be banned from flying the airline and arrested upon arrival. Don't continue to try and force them to wear it. If we're being honest about "the science" inside the aircraft cabin is not a location with a high risk of spread due to the airflow and filtration so letting a person be maskless isn't that big of a deal. It's much "safer" than ending up with a violent confrontation onboard. They just have to be punished after the fact and banned from flying the airline due to not obeying crewmember instructions and arrested.


The proper implementation of this would involve an agreement with the police that not only are they arrested, that they are held for 24 hours in jail. That the passengers sign (in person or electronically) that they understand the mask rules and follow directions of the Flight Attendants regarding masks. That they acknowledge up front that if they violate the rules that they will be arrested and held in jail for a minimum of 24 hours, Fine of $X,XXX - $YY,YYY if charged. That they will be immediately banned from flying for at least 5 years on the airline (and perhaps a lifetime ban), and other airlines may also ban them for a similar period, etc. That if they don't like and agree to the rules that they should travel by land or sea.
 
User avatar
tjwgrr
Posts: 2599
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:17 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Universal no-fly lists and hefty fines. Get the riff raff out of the sky.


:thumbsup: Agreed. Keep them off ALL airlines.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4809
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:18 pm

The railroads have fully deputized private police forces: they are not rent-a-cops.

Given the close legal framework of railroads and airlines (airlines follow most of the railway act) could there not be some way to allow flight attendants to write and issue citations? Not saying every FA to be a sworn officer of the law, but under the right circumstances and with consultation of the company and captain via already existing communication channels could they not be warranted a “one-time” authority to issue a court summons and written citation on behalf of the company?

There has to be a way to allow enforcement in the unique environment of operating aircraft where law enforcement is not present and cannot be made present.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:38 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
The railroads have fully deputized private police forces: they are not rent-a-cops.

Given the close legal framework of railroads and airlines (airlines follow most of the railway act) could there not be some way to allow flight attendants to write and issue citations? Not saying every FA to be a sworn officer of the law, but under the right circumstances and with consultation of the company and captain via already existing communication channels could they not be warranted a “one-time” authority to issue a court summons and written citation on behalf of the company?

There has to be a way to allow enforcement in the unique environment of operating aircraft where law enforcement is not present and cannot be made present.


I'm a big supporter of FAs and their absolute critical role (having been one for several years), but there are plenty who would use that power and simply make the situation worse (advertently or inadvertently). There were plenty of FAs I flew with who I would cringe to see with a citation pad.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:46 pm

FGITD wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

If you are incapable of handling your emotions around wearing a mask in flight; then you probably shouldn’t be onboard an airplane, or in public in the first place.

99% of people can comply without throwing a temper tantrum and assaulting people. If you are that easily aggravated then they should be in a mental asylum.

I don’t think anyone particularly likes wearing them, but most people can act like adults and do as they are told.


Exactly. I’ve had people react better to having their flight canceled at the last second (waiting for pushback) than when I tell them they need to wear a little piece of cloth for a few hours.

Sorry but it’s not an excuse. It’s our plane, our rules and we’re told that pax have to wear masks to be on them. If you can’t handle that, then go back to the daycare you belong in.

You just perfectly summed up the problem I see online with various Flight Attendants. Your tone in your own post is confrontational from the start like you’re already spoiling for a fight with a passenger. Then you come up front to the business end and tell us that you want a passenger removed for non compliance while my partner and I just listened to you berate our customers for the last ten minutes with endless mask PA’s. To blame passengers as the only problem here is missing the point. It’s not always, but sometimes a two way street when it comes to these airborne rage incidents. Did the Flight Attendant really do everything they could do defuse the situation, or did they gaslight it and get the passenger to overreact. Just something to think about from someone who observes this on a daily basis.
 
User avatar
whisperjet727
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:48 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:55 pm

Fines? You’re not supposed to drive 80 on the freeway while texting. Yet most people do it because they know the likelihood of being stopped and fined is almost zero. American have been pushing for laissez faire law enforcement for years and this is the result.
 
FGITD
Posts: 1805
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:58 pm

SWADawg wrote:
FGITD wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

If you are incapable of handling your emotions around wearing a mask in flight; then you probably shouldn’t be onboard an airplane, or in public in the first place.

99% of people can comply without throwing a temper tantrum and assaulting people. If you are that easily aggravated then they should be in a mental asylum.

I don’t think anyone particularly likes wearing them, but most people can act like adults and do as they are told.


Exactly. I’ve had people react better to having their flight canceled at the last second (waiting for pushback) than when I tell them they need to wear a little piece of cloth for a few hours.

Sorry but it’s not an excuse. It’s our plane, our rules and we’re told that pax have to wear masks to be on them. If you can’t handle that, then go back to the daycare you belong in.

You just perfectly summed up the problem I see online with various Flight Attendants. Your tone in your own post is confrontational from the start like you’re already spoiling for a fight with a passenger. Then you come up front to the business end and tell us that you want a passenger removed for non compliance while my partner and I just listened to you berate our customers for the last ten minutes with endless mask PA’s. To blame passengers as the only problem here is missing the point. It’s not always, but sometimes a two way street when it comes to these airborne rage incidents. Did the Flight Attendant really do everything they could do defuse the situation, or did they gaslight it and get the passenger to overreact. Just something to think about from someone who observes this on a daily basis.



Well I’m not a flight attendant, so I do agree with you to a certain degree on that front. Some of them are a little…iffy…in their approach.

The problem with many pax mentality is that in the end, this isn’t negotiation or a bargaining situation and yet so many people take that to mean that they’re the exception and can talk their way out of it.

So many announcements are made, and it’s become a pretty prevalent part of life for almost 2 years. If you can’t or don’t want to wear the mask, then you don’t fly.

The people referred to by the FAA here are generally not the ones who took the mask off to eat or drink briefly and had an FA remind them to put it in. They’re the ones who left home with the idea that they won’t be wearing a mask no matter what anyone tells them.

As for the FAs being in a bad mood-imagine running a restaurant and having to remind a good 50% of your patrons that they have to put their pants on to enter…all day, every day.?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4809
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:01 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
The railroads have fully deputized private police forces: they are not rent-a-cops.

Given the close legal framework of railroads and airlines (airlines follow most of the railway act) could there not be some way to allow flight attendants to write and issue citations? Not saying every FA to be a sworn officer of the law, but under the right circumstances and with consultation of the company and captain via already existing communication channels could they not be warranted a “one-time” authority to issue a court summons and written citation on behalf of the company?

There has to be a way to allow enforcement in the unique environment of operating aircraft where law enforcement is not present and cannot be made present.


I'm a big supporter of FAs and their absolute critical role (having been one for several years), but there are plenty who would use that power and simply make the situation worse (advertently or inadvertently). There were plenty of FAs I flew with who I would cringe to see with a citation pad.


Did you even read my post? I said a one-time authority issued to the FA by the airline in consultation with the airline and captain. Please do not put words in my mouth. A one-time authority issued by the company and captain to write a citation is a long ways from having a citation pad and unlimited authority to use it.

I.e. this guy in 12B is throwing a fit. Text the company, include a video if able. Company agrees behavior warrants a citation. FA is given authorization to write the ticket. Or company does not see a citation is necessary, and the authority is not granted.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:34 pm

Shadow ban them. If they refuse to mask up, take note of their seat, their identity and add them to the no fly list with no warning. Immediately. If they have a return flight booked, sorry. They won't be able to check in. Maybe they get a refund, maybe not. They'll learn the hard way. That will de-escalate the onboard problems, and the ne'er do wells get theirs.
 
User avatar
FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:49 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The fools causing the problems lack social skills, a sense of community, and impulse control. They won't be thinking about how driving to Florida next year instead of flying will hurt their quality of life.


it really begins with training at home. That is not occuring, so now it's a larger societal issue. The stress of travel just provides all of the necessary stimuli to bring out the absolute worst in folks ill equipped to handle it (for the three reasons you describe).

There is an expressions folks use abroad to describe this phenonmen when encountering unruly tourist who hail from the USA...'Ugly American'. That unpleasant distinction has come to roost in a much larger way domestically. It's gone beyond unpleasantness becuase of impatience or a sense of entitlement. It's much more disruptive now and the root causes are much harder to fix.

Fixing it is the rub. Where to begin? I wish we could just tell folks to "play nice" or ask them "'can't we all just get along?" But these disrupters don't seem capable of thinking in those most basic of human terms... It's really discouraging.

I think the recent European Campaign of 'Not On My Flight' is one good approach. Make it clear from the very onset that there is a ZERO tolerance policy for any disruptive behavior or speech. Then enforce the policy. Deal with the lawsuits and publicity later.... allow me, the flying well-behaved public, to get to my destination in relative peace and security.
 
fraspotter
Posts: 2286
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 8:12 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:55 pm

jeffreyklm wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Perhaps an IQ test before boarding?

Jokes apart have they considered the effect of smaller/narrower/tighter seat pitch along with growing size of Americans causing discomfort leading to such outburst....


Not the easiest correlation to prove causality. However, I do think there's a small link but I think most of the problems arise from (in their opinion!) poor service or disrupted operations.

I do hope that the FAA asked for the airlines' expert judgement and will empower the airport police and the airlines to take more action instead of just pointing fingers.


It seems that often times these instances are triggered by alcohol (whether it was onboard or before boarding) so some might say that airlines permanently banning booze (fat chance) or breathalyzer before boarding (even fatter chance) would be the answer.

It's hard to test for simply being an @$$hole as it doesn't show up on a breathalyzer or blood test. Whoever invents said device will surely make a bundle though.
 
pnut
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:16 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:05 pm

SWADawg wrote:
FGITD wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

If you are incapable of handling your emotions around wearing a mask in flight; then you probably shouldn’t be onboard an airplane, or in public in the first place.

99% of people can comply without throwing a temper tantrum and assaulting people. If you are that easily aggravated then they should be in a mental asylum.

I don’t think anyone particularly likes wearing them, but most people can act like adults and do as they are told.


Exactly. I’ve had people react better to having their flight canceled at the last second (waiting for pushback) than when I tell them they need to wear a little piece of cloth for a few hours.

Sorry but it’s not an excuse. It’s our plane, our rules and we’re told that pax have to wear masks to be on them. If you can’t handle that, then go back to the daycare you belong in.

You just perfectly summed up the problem I see online with various Flight Attendants. Your tone in your own post is confrontational from the start like you’re already spoiling for a fight with a passenger. Then you come up front to the business end and tell us that you want a passenger removed for non compliance while my partner and I just listened to you berate our customers for the last ten minutes with endless mask PA’s. To blame passengers as the only problem here is missing the point. It’s not always, but sometimes a two way street when it comes to these airborne rage incidents. Did the Flight Attendant really do everything they could do defuse the situation, or did they gaslight it and get the passenger to overreact. Just something to think about from someone who observes this on a daily basis.


You just perfectly summed up the problem why some Flight Attendants are burned out of experiencing the abuse from passengers. The "endless P/As" many times are company required P/As that are already written in the announcement handbook that are specified to be read verbatim.
Also, there is very little support, if at all, from the cockpit when there is an issue because some pilots have a chauvinistic or dismissive attitude towards F/As in general. (Your "business end" comment subliminally providing a case in point - the customers are the business; and F/As are part of the crew also.)
Most passengers, I have observed, are either apathetic, courteous, or at the very least, begrudgingly compliant with the mask mandates.
However, there are some real doozies out there who either are looking to take their frustration out on a target, wanting attention, or just downright aggressive/antagonisitic.
There are also some Flight Attendants, among ALL crew/employees who are ALSO part of those latter descriptions.
Pilots, in my experience with the hotel transportation and in the cockpit, have been the MOST rebellious with the company mask requirements, and they are also some of the worst cuplrits of micro-aggressions toward F/As that ask them in the workplace and on crew transport to "mask up".
Last edited by pnut on Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
TheZ
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:12 pm

A lot of these people are hoping to reap all the benefits of society without doing their part. This goes far beyond safety in air travel but it'd be a good place to start. No more slaps on the wrist. If you're not in, you're out.
 
Adipocere
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:16 pm

Why not deputize FA’s to full Federal Law Enforcement Officers? Railroads have their own LE officers, why not airlines?
 
F27500
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:36 pm

I think one thing airlines should stop doing is having people removed for their belligerent, threatening or abusive behavior and. then allowing them to take a later flight once they've "calmed down" enough. If you get pulled off a plane for the way you behaved, if you're not arrested, then at the very least, you should NOT reaccomodated under any circumstances by that airline. "Here's your refund ... BYEEE and don't ever come back".
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:06 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
The railroads have fully deputized private police forces: they are not rent-a-cops.

Given the close legal framework of railroads and airlines (airlines follow most of the railway act) could there not be some way to allow flight attendants to write and issue citations? Not saying every FA to be a sworn officer of the law, but under the right circumstances and with consultation of the company and captain via already existing communication channels could they not be warranted a “one-time” authority to issue a court summons and written citation on behalf of the company?

There has to be a way to allow enforcement in the unique environment of operating aircraft where law enforcement is not present and cannot be made present.


I'm a big supporter of FAs and their absolute critical role (having been one for several years), but there are plenty who would use that power and simply make the situation worse (advertently or inadvertently). There were plenty of FAs I flew with who I would cringe to see with a citation pad.


Did you even read my post? I said a one-time authority issued to the FA by the airline in consultation with the airline and captain. Please do not put words in my mouth. A one-time authority issued by the company and captain to write a citation is a long ways from having a citation pad and unlimited authority to use it.

I.e. this guy in 12B is throwing a fit. Text the company, include a video if able. Company agrees behavior warrants a citation. FA is given authorization to write the ticket. Or company does not see a citation is necessary, and the authority is not granted.


Get off your high horse. Yeah, I read your post. Yeah, I disagree with it. Yeah, FAs tend to attract a number of people on a power trip who would abuse such a system. Yeah, it would create more problems than it would solve. Nough said. Thanks for the great dialogue. /sarcasm.

I think these scumbags deserve far more than they're getting. But I don't think that putting it in the hands of someone at the company is the right approach. Sorry if you do.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:22 pm

F27500 wrote:
I think one thing airlines should stop doing is having people removed for their belligerent, threatening or abusive behavior and. then allowing them to take a later flight once they've "calmed down" enough. If you get pulled off a plane for the way you behaved, if you're not arrested, then at the very least, you should NOT reaccomodated under any circumstances by that airline. "Here's your refund ... BYEEE and don't ever come back".


Amen! And not being a lawyer, not sure, but if that behavior is a breach of the contract of carriage, don't even bother with the refund. "You bought a product but didn't want to comply with the terms of service, so it's null and void." Who knows. Pure postulation.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4809
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:38 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:

I'm a big supporter of FAs and their absolute critical role (having been one for several years), but there are plenty who would use that power and simply make the situation worse (advertently or inadvertently). There were plenty of FAs I flew with who I would cringe to see with a citation pad.


Did you even read my post? I said a one-time authority issued to the FA by the airline in consultation with the airline and captain. Please do not put words in my mouth. A one-time authority issued by the company and captain to write a citation is a long ways from having a citation pad and unlimited authority to use it.

I.e. this guy in 12B is throwing a fit. Text the company, include a video if able. Company agrees behavior warrants a citation. FA is given authorization to write the ticket. Or company does not see a citation is necessary, and the authority is not granted.


Get off your high horse. Yeah, I read your post. Yeah, I disagree with it. Yeah, FAs tend to attract a number of people on a power trip who would abuse such a system. Yeah, it would create more problems than it would solve. Nough said. Thanks for the great dialogue. /sarcasm.

I think these scumbags deserve far more than they're getting. But I don't think that putting it in the hands of someone at the company is the right approach. Sorry if you do.


So what is your solution? I offered my suggestion which clearly you take great offense to.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Topic Author
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:53 pm

Inform all passengers that offenders will serve a minimum mandatory time in a federal jail, far away from their loved ones.
 
User avatar
BWIAirport
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:29 pm

Re: FAA wants to know what actions Airlines are going to do to curb unruly passenger incidents

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:16 pm

Yeah this has devolved into a topic on masking as if that's the only potential cause (I bear some responsibility). If you want to continue that, message me or let's head to non-aviation.
Other possible causes of an increase in violent incidents:
Is there a pattern that these are happening at any particular airports? I know some are seeing crowds higher than pre-covid levels and I wonder if the crowd helps contribute to these.
It's also possible that there are no particular new issues occurring, but people feel more confrontational. I wonder what alcohol sales at airports look like nowadays, if that data is even publicly available.
Also, is there actual hard data on the increase in violent incidents or is this primarily anecdotal?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos