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LAX772LR
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:12 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
I get your point but consider the paradox: "the only thing that'd make me comfortable with the idea of stepping on that thing, would be yearsss of operation under more carriers, with more units...". You would only feel comfortable flying in one when a lot of airlines have used them but yet hope they do not (well... at least DL...).

You only need to read the last three words to see the flaw in this statement.

I'd have no reason to care if essentially every other network carrier in the world operated 737MAXs; I'm just happy to have one that doesn't.
The fact that it's my longtime near-exclusive carrier, is bonus.


DXTraveler wrote:
I'm with LAX772LR, going to wait this one out for a few years. It's not an irrational position. I flew out of ADD the morning of the ET crash on another flight departing about 45 minutes behind it. I watched a few 737's take off that morning and often wonder if that ill fated flight was one of them. Thankfully I was never in any danger but that experience shook me in a way I've not had before.

Yikes! :eek:

I know someone who was checked-in for UA93 on 9/11, and had his physical boarding pass already printed. In fact, most people here know him, as he was an extremely popular member back in the early '00s. But at the last minute, his waitlist for a nonstop cleared, so he switched to that instead of going via SFO.

He still keeps the pass.
 
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Revelation
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:33 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Political pressures trump these types of decisions in the U.S. airline industry. A congressman/woman will inquire to DL about why it hasn't purchased Boeing equipment as of late at the behest of Boeing.

These days corporations tell congress what to do, not the other way around.

ewt340 wrote:
Delta probably think that Boeing would sold the MAX at extremely low prices. But they found out that Boeing is unwilling to go that low.

Recent MAX orders were facilitated by companies who ordered MAX before the grounding thus had compensation credits to "spend" on more MAXes.

DL missed out on that. Boeing wasn't going to give them the same kind of deals that others got via compensation credits.

flyboy80 wrote:
I think the 320 NEO is too small, I expect DL will eventually go with the -8 max.

MAX8 would work great for DL's network, and IAG's too.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Political pressures trump these types of decisions in the U.S. airline industry. A congressman/woman will inquire to DL about why it hasn't purchased Boeing equipment as of late at the behest of Boeing.

These days corporations tell congress what to do, not the other way around.



Is Boeing not a corporation in this context? I'd hazard a guess that Boeing has more hands in the congressional cookie jar than do the airlines.

That's not to say Boeing has tried to force its way and failed (Attempted block of DL A220 sale), but goes to show you the length Boeing will take.
 
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Revelation
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:56 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Revelation wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Political pressures trump these types of decisions in the U.S. airline industry. A congressman/woman will inquire to DL about why it hasn't purchased Boeing equipment as of late at the behest of Boeing.

These days corporations tell congress what to do, not the other way around.

Is Boeing not a corporation in this context? I'd hazard a guess that Boeing has more hands in the congressional cookie jar than do the airlines.

That's not to say Boeing has tried to force its way and failed (Attempted block of DL A220 sale), but goes to show you the length Boeing will take.

Would say more, but would take us too far OT and get us shunted over to non-av.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:58 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Is Boeing not a corporation in this context? I'd hazard a guess that Boeing has more hands in the congressional cookie jar than do the airlines.

What makes you assume that whatever politicians Boeing has in its pocket, could somehow impact DL more than the politicians the latter would be funding?

....you think senators Ossoff or Warnock would ever dare cross Delta-- in GEORGIA?
You think for even a second that they wouldn't put a senatorial block on legislation that would affect an airline for a fleet purchase? It would only take one of them, to do that.

Come now.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Political pressures trump these types of decisions in the U.S. airline industry. A congressman/woman will inquire to DL about why it hasn't purchased Boeing equipment as of late at the behest of Boeing.

These days corporations tell congress what to do, not the other way around.

ewt340 wrote:
Delta probably think that Boeing would sold the MAX at extremely low prices. But they found out that Boeing is unwilling to go that low.

Recent MAX orders were facilitated by companies who ordered MAX before the grounding thus had compensation credits to "spend" on more MAXes.

DL missed out on that. Boeing wasn't going to give them the same kind of deals that others got via compensation credits.

flyboy80 wrote:
I think the 320 NEO is too small, I expect DL will eventually go with the -8 max.

MAX8 would work great for DL's network, and IAG's too.

I agree DL won't get as good of pricing as compensation credits. But Boeing needs sales. I think the engine service contract remains the obstacle.

My opinion is -8, -9, and -10, price dependent. Smaller will remain A220.

Oh, I share Mark Twain's opinion on congress, nothing changes.

Lightsaber
 
Boof02671
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:19 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Article sums it up:

https://airlineweekly.com/2021/09/delta ... -in-fleet/


I still doubt they'll do it without getting MRO on that specific engine variant from CFM.

Personally hope that neither happens, as it's nice to have a major airline option that allows avoidance of the MAX; but will be interesting to see what eventually shakes out.


I'd rather they launch the A225 instead, much better flying experience.

Until they get the costs down of the 220 program they won’t launch a new variant. Delta got their 220s for a price that was less than what it should have sold for.
 
Boof02671
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:20 pm

Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.

You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?
 
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Revelation
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
My opinion is -8, -9, and -10, price dependent. Smaller will remain A220.

I agree. To say it kindly, DL is an opportunistic buyer. To say it unkindly, DL is a bottom feeder. Pick your favorite rendition.

Regardless, DL will sit back and wait till Boeing needs some sales. It could be very late in the product life cycle. No one predicted DL would be buying -900ER late in its life cycle, now it's cornered that market via new and used aircraft purchases.

Also if CFM doesn't relent, DL could easily just keep buying NEO with GTF and leverage that relationship.

They are not locked in to any one strategy.
 
RobertoMugabe
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:36 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.

You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?


Is that measured in actual physical content, or in value of the product on the aircraft? I have always wondered but never had a clear answer, because the bulk of the components could be made in Europe/China, but the highest value parts, engines and complex machined pieces could be made in the US, but then I don't know what the Airbus value stream looks like.

To play devil's advocate, a lot of the engineering and touch labor on Airbus remains in Europe, while the bulk of Boeing's engineering and final assembly, even supply chain, lies in the United States.
 
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:39 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.

You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?


So you also favor AF, LH, and all the other EU airlines weeding out the foreign (i.e. American) aircraft in their fleets and replacing them with European equipment, right?
 
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:41 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Is Boeing not a corporation in this context? I'd hazard a guess that Boeing has more hands in the congressional cookie jar than do the airlines.

What makes you assume that whatever politicians Boeing has in its pocket, could somehow impact DL more than the politicians the latter would be funding?

....you think senators Ossoff or Warnock would ever dare cross Delta-- in GEORGIA?
You think for even a second that they wouldn't put a senatorial block on legislation that would affect an airline for a fleet purchase? It would only take one of them, to do that.

Come now.


And if a block only applies to one single airline it may be considered an unconstitutional bill of attainder. It would have to be all or none.
 
F9Animal
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:09 pm

Meh!! I prefer they go for more Airbus 321's. But if the MAX is part of their hopes, I cant complain. I figured DL was waiting to see the MAX get through it's teething issues.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:23 pm

Every time they make progress towards fleet standardization, they lose focus a short time later and regress. Massive number of 321 and 321N are coming......focus Ed, focus. Stay the course. Remember, you once had 1,000 more pilots than AA even though they had 100 more airplanes. The 737 series offers no unique capabilities that the 320 series doesn't already meet (or exceed).
 
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:45 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.

You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?


But the name 'Airbus' (and NOT Boeing) is slapped on the side of every ship. Which one is more patriotic?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:54 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Every time they make progress towards fleet standardization, they lose focus a short time later and regress. Massive number of 321 and 321N are coming......focus Ed, focus. Stay the course

Why?

Regardless as to this site's obsession with the concept: "commonality" doesn't mean much, once a particular fleet type begins numbering into the hundreds.

The cost vs. benefit of a mixed 737/A32X shorthaul fleet is negligible on the scale that AA/DL/UA/etc operate; particularly seeing as there's a slew of other factors (most notably, acquisition cost) that can come into play.

When the airline envisioned "fleet standardization" they meant going from 717/MD88/MD90/737/A32X/757 shorthaul to A220/737/A32X..... which is essentially what they'll have done, once the last 757s depart. A 737MAX order wouldn't change that.
 
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:57 pm

LX015 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.

You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?


But the name 'Airbus' (and NOT Boeing) is slapped on the side of every ship. Which one is more patriotic?

BETTER QUESTION: since when do publicly-owned private corporations make financial decisions based on "patriotism?"
 
starrion
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:25 pm

Corporations largely don't make decisions on CAPEX on patriotism unless they perceive a sales PR advantage.
Most people know nothing about planes and would not make a flight decision based on the origin of the aircraft.
That was one reason I was doubtful when I heard many people proclaiming they wouldn't fly on the max.
 
smartplane
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:38 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
DL clearly has an Airbus preference, and will continue to stay like that under Bastian, but it also knows from a supply chain perspective that exclusivity always costs more in the long-run.

If 'exclusivity always costs more in the long-run', using that logic, surely Southwest is more likely to change than Delta?
 
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keesje
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:47 pm

Delta A320 and 737-800 both seat 150 in 3 classes. Probably determined by cabin crew rstes. The A320NEO is used with same seatnumbers, is a little lighter and has better engines. Still I give the 737-8 a good chance. Long term dual source policy
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:54 pm

keesje wrote:
Delta A320 and 737-800 both seat 150 in 3 classes. Probably determined by cabin crew rstes. The A320NEO is used with same seatnumbers, is a little lighter and has better engines. Still I give the 737-8 a good chance. Long term dual source policy


What are you talking about? Delta has 160 seats on their 737-800.
 
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Polot
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:58 pm

keesje wrote:
Delta A320 and 737-800 both seat 150 in 3 classes. Probably determined by cabin crew rstes. The A320NEO is used with same seatnumbers, is a little lighter and has better engines. Still I give the 737-8 a good chance. Long term dual source policy

DL has ~160 seats in both, with the 738 having double the number of Y+ seats and older but larger lavs and galley. With a Max8 DL would probably move to the now more common smaller lavs/galley as found on their 739s.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:58 pm

Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.


That would be neat, but they're going to go with the best product available for their needs and "North American" = Boeing. That's telling.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:10 pm

smartplane wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
DL clearly has an Airbus preference, and will continue to stay like that under Bastian, but it also knows from a supply chain perspective that exclusivity always costs more in the long-run.

If 'exclusivity always costs more in the long-run', using that logic, surely Southwest is more likely to change than Delta?


"Exclusivity" in this context is referring to a single supplier of multiple products, not a single fleet type.

More history on the Boeing agreements with AA, CO, and DL from the late 1990s:

https://money.cnn.com/1997/05/21/companies/continental/

Source: CNN
 
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Every time they make progress towards fleet standardization, they lose focus a short time later and regress. Massive number of 321 and 321N are coming......focus Ed, focus. Stay the course

Why?

Regardless as to this site's obsession with the concept: "commonality" doesn't mean much, once a particular fleet type begins numbering into the hundreds.

The cost vs. benefit of a mixed 737/A32X shorthaul fleet is negligible on the scale that AA/DL/UA/etc operate; particularly seeing as there's a slew of other factors (most notably, acquisition cost) that can come into play.

When the airline envisioned "fleet standardization" they meant going from 717/MD88/MD90/737/A32X/757 shorthaul to A220/737/A32X..... which is essentially what they'll have done, once the last 757s depart. A 737MAX order wouldn't change that.


Exactly. "Fleet commonality" was a big thing with the Wall Street nitwits starting about 10-15 years ago. What they don't recognize is that there is zero savings from a single fleet type above a certain fleet size. They just saw WN making money and assumed that the big network carriers should follow suit. The reality is that the more common your fleet is, the less-optimal it is for any given mission. You can use a 757 to run ATL-MCO because you need a plane of that size, but, apples-to-apples, the frame has much more capability than you need on that run. Something else, cheaper, would be more-efficient, if you had it. (Of course, a fully-paid-for 757 on that route eliminates the capital cost component, so... Which also is a point: fleets aren't static; there's always a mix of old and new, and the old tend to be lower-capital-cost and higher-operating-cost. Someone focusing only on your operating results will think you're doing great with a brand-new fleet of fuel-efficient blah-blahs, but you then gotta use that profit to pay debt service and, ultimately, the principal of the debt.)

It's a complex, ever-changing, analysis, and, in the long-term, DL seems to have mastered it. I don't know why most airline CEOs these days chant the mantra that fewer fleet types is necessarily-better. In reality, including the optimal aircraft for a particular route in the analysis will yield a better overall result.
 
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keesje
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:38 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
What are you talking about? Delta has 160 seats on their 737-800.


My fault I meant A320 and 737-800 both ~160 seats.

If the customer appreciation of the lav's are the same as a.net members indicate, Delta might look if the old (Yokohama) ones are still available. Or Collins/BEA makes some wider ones.. if MAX is selected.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:55 pm

keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
What are you talking about? Delta has 160 seats on their 737-800.


My fault I meant A320 and 737-800 both ~160 seats.

If the customer appreciation of the lav's are the same as a.net members indicate, Delta might look if the old (Yokohama) ones are still available. Or Collins/BEA makes some wider ones.. if MAX is selected.


Given that Delta opted for SpaceFlex galley and lavatories on the A321neo, I suspect they will opt for smaller lavatories and galleys and increase seatcount on future airplanes. If they order 737-8s I’d expect more than 160 seats

You can see the tiny lavatory with a toilet that is not centered because it is so tight.

Image

https://services.airbus.com/en/in-fligh ... t-lav.html
 
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keesje
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:05 pm

Apparently MAX new lav's were a topic at AA and UA (before the crashes). Many links, complaints everywhere. Never used them though.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:11 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
You can see the tiny lavatory with a toilet that is not centered because it is so tight.

I'm still waiting for the inevitable ADA lawsuit over these things, and am somewhat shocked that it hasn't happened already.
 
spartanmjf
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:16 pm

spinotter wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.

You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?


So you also favor AF, LH, and all the other EU airlines weeding out the foreign (i.e. American) aircraft in their fleets and replacing them with European equipment, right?


And how many Boeing aircraft are flown by SAS? Lufthansa? Aeroflot? Brussels? There has clearly been pressure on EU airlines over the past twenty years.....
 
Flyglobal
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:30 pm

LH for example has a lot of Boeing wide body aircraft. Same as Air Framce.
The only problem is the 737 as Europe is rather more containerrized. And the 737 has its old fashioned Flight system and felt es sub standard.
Would Boeing move to a new narrow body finally success also in Europe would be immediately there. But they dont move.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:35 pm

wjcandee wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Every time they make progress towards fleet standardization, they lose focus a short time later and regress. Massive number of 321 and 321N are coming......focus Ed, focus. Stay the course

Why?

Regardless as to this site's obsession with the concept: "commonality" doesn't mean much, once a particular fleet type begins numbering into the hundreds.

The cost vs. benefit of a mixed 737/A32X shorthaul fleet is negligible on the scale that AA/DL/UA/etc operate; particularly seeing as there's a slew of other factors (most notably, acquisition cost) that can come into play.

When the airline envisioned "fleet standardization" they meant going from 717/MD88/MD90/737/A32X/757 shorthaul to A220/737/A32X..... which is essentially what they'll have done, once the last 757s depart. A 737MAX order wouldn't change that.


Exactly. "Fleet commonality" was a big thing with the Wall Street nitwits starting about 10-15 years ago. What they don't recognize is that there is zero savings from a single fleet type above a certain fleet size. They just saw WN making money and assumed that the big network carriers should follow suit. The reality is that the more common your fleet is, the less-optimal it is for any given mission. You can use a 757 to run ATL-MCO because you need a plane of that size, but, apples-to-apples, the frame has much more capability than you need on that run. Something else, cheaper, would be more-efficient, if you had it. (Of course, a fully-paid-for 757 on that route eliminates the capital cost component, so... Which also is a point: fleets aren't static; there's always a mix of old and new, and the old tend to be lower-capital-cost and higher-operating-cost. Someone focusing only on your operating results will think you're doing great with a brand-new fleet of fuel-efficient blah-blahs, but you then gotta use that profit to pay debt service and, ultimately, the principal of the debt.)

It's a complex, ever-changing, analysis, and, in the long-term, DL seems to have mastered it. I don't know why most airline CEOs these days chant the mantra that fewer fleet types is necessarily-better. In reality, including the optimal aircraft for a particular route in the analysis will yield a better overall result.


Of course, it depends on who is doing the analysis, and their predefined objectives.

There may be some benefit when the airplanes are different sizes and the fleets are large. You can send the right number of seats to the right market. But when the seating capacity and range are essentially the same, where is the benefit to multiple fleets? At one time Delta had M90, 737-8, and A320 all with very similar capabilities. Centering on two types is improvement I guess. One type would be even better, all the more so given that they appear to be very A330 centric on the widebody side. Transition to/from A320 to A330 is very easy and abbreviated for pilots, 737 to/from A330 not so much.

I noticed that both respondents overlooked my comments about pilots versus AA. Pilots are your most expensive large employee group, roughly 10% of your employees suck down 40-50% of your employee expenses. Carrying a thousand to 1,500 more is very expensive, and also has operational complexities that aren't always easily reflected in a numerical analysis conducted by the cubicle police (or their consultants).
 
WayexTDI
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:39 pm

spartanmjf wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
You do know the A320 family uses around 40% content of American made parts?


So you also favor AF, LH, and all the other EU airlines weeding out the foreign (i.e. American) aircraft in their fleets and replacing them with European equipment, right?


And how many Boeing aircraft are flown by SAS? Lufthansa? Aeroflot? Brussels? There has clearly been pressure on EU airlines over the past twenty years.....

Air France: 213 aircraft, 76 of which are Boeing.
Brussels: 38 aircraft, all Airbus.
Lufthansa: 273 aircraft, 27 of which are Boeing.
SAS: 132 aircraft, 25 of which are Boeing (to be replaced by Airbus).
Aeroflot: 204 aircraft, 57 of which are Boeing - not sure I'd include them in a political discussion about Europe...

Now, do you want to talk about the one that do not fit your narrative?
KLM: 111 aircraft, 100 of which are Boeing (and the 11 Airbus to be retired in 2025).
Ryanair: 443 aircraft, 443 of which are Boeing!?!?!?!?!
Icelandair: 35 aircraft, 30 of which are Boeing (and the rest are Dash8s).
Lot Polish: 75 aircraft, 26 of which are Boeing, 12 Dash8s and 37 ERJs (0 Airbus)

Let's have a look at US airlines as well:
Alaska: 320 aircraft, 169 of which are Boeing (the 44 A320 inherited from Virgin America will be gone by 2023, and the 10 A321neos are up in question).
Southwest: 736 aircraft, 736 of which are Boeing!?!?!?!?

Wanting airlines to only purchase from the "home team" for political reasons goes against financial sense: some (mainly single type airlines) have found their perfect aircraft to come from Boeing, some from Airbus. And the majority of international airlines have found that neither manufacturer has THE best offering and order from both.
 
bigb
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:19 pm

wjcandee wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Every time they make progress towards fleet standardization, they lose focus a short time later and regress. Massive number of 321 and 321N are coming......focus Ed, focus. Stay the course

Why?

Regardless as to this site's obsession with the concept: "commonality" doesn't mean much, once a particular fleet type begins numbering into the hundreds.

The cost vs. benefit of a mixed 737/A32X shorthaul fleet is negligible on the scale that AA/DL/UA/etc operate; particularly seeing as there's a slew of other factors (most notably, acquisition cost) that can come into play.

When the airline envisioned "fleet standardization" they meant going from 717/MD88/MD90/737/A32X/757 shorthaul to A220/737/A32X..... which is essentially what they'll have done, once the last 757s depart. A 737MAX order wouldn't change that.


Exactly. "Fleet commonality" was a big thing with the Wall Street nitwits starting about 10-15 years ago. What they don't recognize is that there is zero savings from a single fleet type above a certain fleet size. They just saw WN making money and assumed that the big network carriers should follow suit. The reality is that the more common your fleet is, the less-optimal it is for any given mission. You can use a 757 to run ATL-MCO because you need a plane of that size, but, apples-to-apples, the frame has much more capability than you need on that run. Something else, cheaper, would be more-efficient, if you had it. (Of course, a fully-paid-for 757 on that route eliminates the capital cost component, so... Which also is a point: fleets aren't static; there's always a mix of old and new, and the old tend to be lower-capital-cost and higher-operating-cost. Someone focusing only on your operating results will think you're doing great with a brand-new fleet of fuel-efficient blah-blahs, but you then gotta use that profit to pay debt service and, ultimately, the principal of the debt.)

It's a complex, ever-changing, analysis, and, in the long-term, DL seems to have mastered it. I don't know why most airline CEOs these days chant the mantra that fewer fleet types is necessarily-better. In reality, including the optimal aircraft for a particular route in the analysis will yield a better overall result.


Fleet commonality still offers even larger carriers great flexibility with fleet usage today. United has ton of flexibility from the 737-700 up to the 739 Maxes now. The only exception at the 321 NEOs coming online to over the longer haul missions that the 739 Maxes will be unable to cover. But everything that the A320 can do in United fleet the 737 can do as well. Operationally, there is a ton a flexibility operating a single type of fleet (think plane swaps, crew swaps). The same can be said with the 787 fleet from the -8 up to the -10 as well.

You can introduce complexity into the fleet when aircraft can be acquired without a lot of capital expenditure (see the A220 in DL fleet, and used 737 orders). You can also introduce complexities if the aircraft will bring additional income opportunities for the airline (engine deals for MRO work). All of the new aircraft DL are bringing online are the busses. I foresee that to continue. I don’t see DL ordering Maxes unless they can get a great deal on them and/or secure a deal on to do perform engine work with the MROs.
 
SEU
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:35 pm

Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.


You know that Airbus Neos have over 45% US parts and that Airbus has a factory in the US at Mobile, Alabama?

Very very strange thing to say.
 
wjcandee
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:56 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
You can see the tiny lavatory with a toilet that is not centered because it is so tight.

I'm still waiting for the inevitable ADA lawsuit over these things, and am somewhat shocked that it hasn't happened already.


It probably would have, except that the ADA doesn't apply to airlines and their aircraft and services, as regards the public.
There's something called the ACAA (Air Carrier Access Act) that occupies the field, and DOT is the enforcement entity. So it's handled in a politically driven organization which considers they position of all stakeholders, including the airlines. That's probably not a bad thing, in that if enough negative publicity towards these horrendously inaccessible lavatories could be brought to bear on and administration or Congress, DOT might act.

If you're in the terminal, the airport authority, and I presume the facilities of the airline in the terminal, are indeed subject to the ADA, so you could sue over inaccessible airport lavatories, but not airplane lavatories.

That's my understanding, anyway. But you're right, there's a reason that nobody has sued about this yet.

That said, read this: "Aircraft with more than one aisle should provide at least one lavatory accessible via an on-board aircraft wheelchair. The lavatory must provide door locks, call buttons, grab bars, faucets and other controls accessible to a person with a disability, including those who entered by means of the on-board wheelchair. 14 CFR § 382.21 (a) (3)" But that's only for widebodies.
Last edited by wjcandee on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:02 pm

bigb wrote:
You can introduce complexity into the fleet when aircraft can be acquired without a lot of capital expenditure (see the A220 in DL fleet, and used 737 orders).


Exactly. The capital cost of the asset affects the decision as to whether, long-term, it's cheaper to add the complexity.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:05 pm

bigb wrote:
All of the new aircraft DL are bringing online are the busses. I foresee that to continue. I don’t see DL ordering Maxes unless they can get a great deal on them and/or secure a deal on to do perform engine work with the MROs.

All of the new aircraft DL has engine MRO contracts:

https://deltatechops.com/techops/engine-maintenance/

.There is no strong arming Delta any anyone, the have enough A320 NEO and A220 options and DL can buy more used 737s or A320CEOs, with the CFM engines, opportunistically. Used A320CEO or 737-800 are cheap enough. MAX -8 new are less than new in 2019 737-800.

viewtopic.php?t=1460947

viewtopic.php?t=1422705

I'm not worried about Delta. I think the MAX is a great fit for them, but only with an engine MRO deal. Hence why they will discuss and wait.

Lightsaber
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:11 pm

Never understood why CFM has always been so tight on MRO. Obviously it's for profit reasons but they have sold so many engines that I feel like it gets too far when you're losing business because of that stance. This also screws Boeing out of any sales on the MAX, I guess this is another good reason to have engine options.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:29 pm

DL isn’t making noise…. Just the obligatory question at a pilot town hall about the MAX that comes up every quarter.

The MAX will almost certainly happen at some point for DL just not in the near term with their current order book. Realistically the timeframe is probably for deliveries in the 2027-2030 timeframe as 757s start to go out en mase and the B738 start to approach retirement. I see it as a way to keep the 737 fleet around or above 250 frames (739 + MAX) into the next decade.
 
sxf24
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:35 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Never understood why CFM has always been so tight on MRO. Obviously it's for profit reasons but they have sold so many engines that I feel like it gets too far when you're losing business because of that stance. This also screws Boeing out of any sales on the MAX, I guess this is another good reason to have engine options.


GE and CFM have been loosest with MRO agreements among engine OEMs. I’ve heard they were willing to work with Delta on the LEAP but Delta didn’t like the terms.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:39 am

sxf24 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Never understood why CFM has always been so tight on MRO. Obviously it's for profit reasons but they have sold so many engines that I feel like it gets too far when you're losing business because of that stance. This also screws Boeing out of any sales on the MAX, I guess this is another good reason to have engine options.


GE and CFM have been loosest with MRO agreements among engine OEMs. I’ve heard they were willing to work with Delta on the LEAP but Delta didn’t like the terms.


Doesn't Delta have a history of conflict with CFM over PMA parts and CFM overhauls? I thought I read that somewhere, sorry no link.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:31 am

It may be CFM that is the issue rather than Boeing, with Delta growing its B739 fleet. Keep in mind that Delta’s A321neos will be powered by PW engines, and that issues with CFM likely cost Boeing that order. It may not be MAX v. Neo, but Delta v. CFM. Going with Pratt and Whitney was a surprise given that Delta hadn’t selected PW since the 757 order until the A220 and A321neo.
 
777Mech
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:22 am

sxf24 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Never understood why CFM has always been so tight on MRO. Obviously it's for profit reasons but they have sold so many engines that I feel like it gets too far when you're losing business because of that stance. This also screws Boeing out of any sales on the MAX, I guess this is another good reason to have engine options.


GE and CFM have been loosest with MRO agreements among engine OEMs. I’ve heard they were willing to work with Delta on the LEAP but Delta didn’t like the terms.


They were willing to let DL Techops tear down and assemble engines, but overhaul of all components were not allowed, they would have to be shipped to another vendor for overhaul. They would not allow engine testing as well.
 
sxf24
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:00 am

SteelChair wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Never understood why CFM has always been so tight on MRO. Obviously it's for profit reasons but they have sold so many engines that I feel like it gets too far when you're losing business because of that stance. This also screws Boeing out of any sales on the MAX, I guess this is another good reason to have engine options.


GE and CFM have been loosest with MRO agreements among engine OEMs. I’ve heard they were willing to work with Delta on the LEAP but Delta didn’t like the terms.


Doesn't Delta have a history of conflict with CFM over PMA parts and CFM overhauls? I thought I read that somewhere, sorry no link.


RR and PW don’t allow PMA parts in new generation engines.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:54 am

sxf24 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

GE and CFM have been loosest with MRO agreements among engine OEMs. I’ve heard they were willing to work with Delta on the LEAP but Delta didn’t like the terms.


Doesn't Delta have a history of conflict with CFM over PMA parts and CFM overhauls? I thought I read that somewhere, sorry no link.


RR and PW don’t allow PMA parts in new generation engines.

I searched and couldn't find Delta TechOps repairs on core components of the new engines. But I did find Lufthansa developing accessory repairs while UTAS (now Raytheon Technologies) maintained the rights to repair engine core parts.
Edit: forgot link:
https://alfresk.wordpress.com/2018/11/0 ... t-repairs/
I found searching for Delta engine component repairs snippets of CFM-56 turbine and compressor repairs, but nothing like that on the PW1x00G or Trents.

If CFM made an offer on the LEAP, something didn't close the deal. I can only speculate and without knowing more, I'd probably be wrong on what.

I wish I knew what is the impediment. For it is inconceivable to me that Delta doesn't want to keep their CFM-56-5/-7 customers on the LEAP-1B/A.

Something didn't close the business case. I really wonder what it was.

Lightsaber
 
flyabr
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:10 am

If the GTF were hanging onto a Max wing, the deal might have already been done! :-)
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:37 am

keesje wrote:
Apparently MAX new lav's were a topic at AA and UA (before the crashes). Many links, complaints everywhere. Never used them though.

Still better than an Airbus Spaceflex lav, which I think is the worst out there in terms of space (irony), and ergonomics.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:52 am

SEU wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.


You know that Airbus Neos have over 45% US parts and that Airbus has a factory in the US at Mobile, Alabama?

Very very strange thing to say.

But with a lot less engineering design and R&D done in the US compared to Boeing. Thats the higher value work and jobs that matters more to the American future.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1745
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: DL making media noise about purchasing 737MAX, again.

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:53 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
SEU wrote:
Douglas7Seas wrote:
I'd like to see Delta slowly weed out the foreign aircraft in its fleet and replace them with North American equipment.


You know that Airbus Neos have over 45% US parts and that Airbus has a factory in the US at Mobile, Alabama?

Very very strange thing to say.

But with a lot less engineering design and R&D done in the US compared to Boeing. Thats the higher value work and jobs that matters more to the American future.


It's a matter of degree. I've read countless articles about the amount of engineering work that Boeing outsourced overseas contributing to the MAX and 787 issues

The whole issue seems moot to me in the age of globalization.

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