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N62NA
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Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:54 pm

This person should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and be placed on the no-fly list for life.

BOSTON (CBS) – A passenger on a JetBlue flight from Boston to San Juan, Puerto Rico was arrested after he allegedly choked a flight attendant and tried to enter the cockpit.

Flight 261 was about an hour out from landing in San Juan after taking off from Logan Airport Wednesday night when the attack happened.


https://boston.cbslocal.com/2021/09/23/khalil-el-dahr-passenger-attack-flight-attendant-cockpit-jetblue/
 
tsbooker
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:35 pm

According to the linked article, just as the passenger began to choke the FA with his tie, the flight deck door was opened. Of all the things one would assume would be a possible fatal mistake, opening the flight deck door has to be at or near the top of the list. My understanding is that prior to opening the flight deck door for a pilot to take a restroom break, they would place a call to the cabin requesting that the FA's block entry to the cockpit with a food cart, and have a FA in place to immediately enter the cockpit while the pilot was away thereby minimizing the amount of time that the flight deck door was open. If there was a disturbance in the cabin, the FA should have let the flight deck know and again the last thing that should happen is to open the flight deck door. Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood what was written. Either way, I am glad that this incident ended without serious injury or loss or life.
 
IFlyMGN
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:41 pm

I have reached the point that if I see anyone making any kind of an aggressive move toward a flight attendant, the cockpit door or an entry/emergency exit....I WILL stop them with all the force I can muster whether it be objects, belts or my bare hands. Mentally ill or not, I will not sit by and watch something like this take place. The lives of all of the other passengers and crew are simply more important.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:50 pm

IFlyMGN wrote:
I have reached the point that if I see anyone making any kind of an aggressive move toward a flight attendant, the cockpit door or an entry/emergency exit....I WILL stop them with all the force I can muster whether it be objects, belts or my bare hands. Mentally ill or not, I will not sit by and watch something like this take place. The lives of all of the other passengers and crew are simply more important.

Easy to say sitting at your keyboard…


Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.
 
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ua900
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:56 pm

tsbooker wrote:
According to the linked article, just as the passenger began to choke the FA with his tie, the flight deck door was opened. Of all the things one would assume would be a possible fatal mistake, opening the flight deck door has to be at or near the top of the list. My understanding is that prior to opening the flight deck door for a pilot to take a restroom break, they would place a call to the cabin requesting that the FA's block entry to the cockpit with a food cart, and have a FA in place to immediately enter the cockpit while the pilot was away thereby minimizing the amount of time that the flight deck door was open. If there was a disturbance in the cabin, the FA should have let the flight deck know and again the last thing that should happen is to open the flight deck door. Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood what was written. Either way, I am glad that this incident ended without serious injury or loss or life.


Exactly, if anything stands out in this event, the timing of the door opening would be it.

"Just as that happened, a flight crew officer opened the cockpit door. El Dahr then allegedly choked a flight attendant with his own tie and attempted to enter the cockpit."

Not sure what the B6 procedure is, but I can guarantee you that he wouldn't have gotten past the cart at UA, if B6 used a cart. Nevermind the F/As or a possible FAM / PCFA somewhere in the cabin, the pax in the F cabin would have tackled him good. I doubt all six or seven people who restrained him were "crew members" given staffing levels on a A320/321...

Either way, while he didn't get what he wanted, I'm sure whatever he gets for that will match the crime. I second you on being glad no serious injury or loss of life occured. I'm sure B6 will review what happened closely and optimize their processes if an opportunity presents itself.
 
kalvado
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:57 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
IFlyMGN wrote:
I have reached the point that if I see anyone making any kind of an aggressive move toward a flight attendant, the cockpit door or an entry/emergency exit....I WILL stop them with all the force I can muster whether it be objects, belts or my bare hands. Mentally ill or not, I will not sit by and watch something like this take place. The lives of all of the other passengers and crew are simply more important.

Easy to say sitting at your keyboard…


Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.

tried to make a cell phone call, failed - then yelling that he wanted to be shot in Spanish?
I sure think mental health treatment is the first thing to consider here before anything else
 
drdisque
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:18 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


Good news, this already exists. It's called Secure Flight and that's why you have to put in your gender and birthdate when making a booking.
 
IFlyMGN
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:48 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
IFlyMGN wrote:
I have reached the point that if I see anyone making any kind of an aggressive move toward a flight attendant, the cockpit door or an entry/emergency exit....I WILL stop them with all the force I can muster whether it be objects, belts or my bare hands. Mentally ill or not, I will not sit by and watch something like this take place. The lives of all of the other passengers and crew are simply more important.

Easy to say sitting at your keyboard…


Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


Don't think it would be that hard. My life and that of fellow passengers and crew have a very strengthening effect on the ability to increase self preservation. These flight crews have to endure enough as it is from passengers that shouldn't have even been allowed in an airport, much less on a plane.
 
santi319
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:57 pm

Well its no surprise at all, with the way passengers are behaving recently, an attack is imminent. And it most probably will be a domestic terrorist incident at the way things are going…
 
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whisperjet727
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:14 pm

The problem with a no- fly list is that you’re placed on it after you’ve harmed people. Tasers are the answer I would imagine.
 
slvrblt
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:24 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


No. Time for an automatic jail sentence, AND permanent national no fly ban. How long will people like this be allowed to carry on like idiots?? If you're an idiot, then spend some jail time thinking about it. No BS, no trials, no bleeding hearts wailing the excuses. Immediate jail time plus whatever, can't plead not guilty when you cause a diversion, emergency landing, or assault crew members/passengers. This has been in the news so much there's no excuse for this sort of thing anymore, but there are few consequences so far. Oh, the poor thing has mental problems. Don't care; Don't fly then, unless you have a medical professional's certified clearance. Plenty of people with other issues do need prior clearances to fly and do present them at check-in. Unfortunately - there's one thing that WILL wake everyone up to enforcement - one of these nutcases will cause a crash. And it appears that this nut on Jet blue actually had his chance at infamy- if he'd have moved fast, with that cockpit door opening at the wrong time...........the results might have been really unfortunate.
 
cschleic
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:32 pm

ua900 wrote:
tsbooker wrote:
According to the linked article, just as the passenger began to choke the FA with his tie, the flight deck door was opened. Of all the things one would assume would be a possible fatal mistake, opening the flight deck door has to be at or near the top of the list. My understanding is that prior to opening the flight deck door for a pilot to take a restroom break, they would place a call to the cabin requesting that the FA's block entry to the cockpit with a food cart, and have a FA in place to immediately enter the cockpit while the pilot was away thereby minimizing the amount of time that the flight deck door was open. If there was a disturbance in the cabin, the FA should have let the flight deck know and again the last thing that should happen is to open the flight deck door. Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood what was written. Either way, I am glad that this incident ended without serious injury or loss or life.


Exactly, if anything stands out in this event, the timing of the door opening would be it.

"Just as that happened, a flight crew officer opened the cockpit door. El Dahr then allegedly choked a flight attendant with his own tie and attempted to enter the cockpit."

Not sure what the B6 procedure is, but I can guarantee you that he wouldn't have gotten past the cart at UA, if B6 used a cart. Nevermind the F/As or a possible FAM / PCFA somewhere in the cabin, the pax in the F cabin would have tackled him good. I doubt all six or seven people who restrained him were "crew members" given staffing levels on a A320/321...

Either way, while he didn't get what he wanted, I'm sure whatever he gets for that will match the crime. I second you on being glad no serious injury or loss of life occured. I'm sure B6 will review what happened closely and optimize their processes if an opportunity presents itself.


There's always this example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest ... light_1763
 
TW870
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:39 pm

drdisque wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


Good news, this already exists. It's called Secure Flight and that's why you have to put in your gender and birthdate when making a booking.


Good point. I think it is time to add this info in the safety demo. Have the CEO introduce the demo, mention the mask policy, and mention Secure Flight. I know they want to make the experience feel pleasurable rather than punitive, but as a frequent flyer, I think it would actually feel more calm and secure to lay out the policy up front. The CEO should clearly and calmly say that if you disrupt the flight, we will push to have you added to the no fly list, we will cancel your frequent flyer account, and we will ban you from the airline for good. I think the vast majority of people would support that.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:59 pm

The no fly list for these idiots cannot come soon enough. It's also really tragic that the government wants to hand the problem's solution over to the airlines. It should be fairly straightforward and federally mandated. Cause an issue on a plane, attack a flight attendant, or other crew member or passenger, expect an epic fine, a ban on flying for a minimum of 10 years, or permanently depending on the circumstances, and jail time. Enough already.
 
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:19 pm

Just a reminder to users that posting sensitive security information or any information that could aid an illegal act is strictly forbidden on this forum. Your post will be removed, and you may be banned as a result. This is something we take seriously for reasons that should be obvious. Please think twice before posting information that may be considered sensitive for your sake and for the sake of the flying public. These are open forums, and you have no idea who could be reading.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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robleroy121721
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:18 am

TW870 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


Good news, this already exists. It's called Secure Flight and that's why you have to put in your gender and birthdate when making a booking.


Good point. I think it is time to add this info in the safety demo. Have the CEO introduce the demo, mention the mask policy, and mention Secure Flight. I know they want to make the experience feel pleasurable rather than punitive, but as a frequent flyer, I think it would actually feel more calm and secure to lay out the policy up front. The CEO should clearly and calmly say that if you disrupt the flight, we will push to have you added to the no fly list, we will cancel your frequent flyer account, and we will ban you from the airline for good. I think the vast majority of people would support that.


Like the Dowager Countess of Grantham once said, "Sometimes it's good to rule by fear."
 
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N62NA
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:30 am

Saw on the news today that there have been over 4,000 people who have disrupted flights this year and only ONE person has been charged with a crime. And nobody at the DOJ sees a problem here?
 
panam330
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:48 am

robleroy121721 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
drdisque wrote:

Good news, this already exists. It's called Secure Flight and that's why you have to put in your gender and birthdate when making a booking.


Good point. I think it is time to add this info in the safety demo. Have the CEO introduce the demo, mention the mask policy, and mention Secure Flight. I know they want to make the experience feel pleasurable rather than punitive, but as a frequent flyer, I think it would actually feel more calm and secure to lay out the policy up front. The CEO should clearly and calmly say that if you disrupt the flight, we will push to have you added to the no fly list, we will cancel your frequent flyer account, and we will ban you from the airline for good. I think the vast majority of people would support that.


Like the Dowager Countess of Grantham once said, "Sometimes it's good to rule by fear."

Props for the Downton reference - one of my favorite shows.

I'm so sick of hearing about this crap. Time for every one of these people to have a little visit to jail, a nice fine, and a multi-year ban from flying (at the very least). These people need to learn there are consequences to their actions, or it's only going to keep snowballing.
 
toobz
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:09 pm

This is just insane what is going on. I think it’s rather obvious the mental health situation in the US is getting very worrisome.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:51 pm

slvrblt wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


No. Time for an automatic jail sentence, AND permanent national no fly ban. How long will people like this be allowed to carry on like idiots?? If you're an idiot, then spend some jail time thinking about it. No BS, no trials, no bleeding hearts wailing the excuses. Immediate jail time plus whatever, can't plead not guilty when you cause a diversion, emergency landing, or assault crew members/passengers. This has been in the news so much there's no excuse for this sort of thing anymore, but there are few consequences so far. Oh, the poor thing has mental problems. Don't care; Don't fly then, unless you have a medical professional's certified clearance. Plenty of people with other issues do need prior clearances to fly and do present them at check-in. Unfortunately - there's one thing that WILL wake everyone up to enforcement - one of these nutcases will cause a crash. And it appears that this nut on Jet blue actually had his chance at infamy- if he'd have moved fast, with that cockpit door opening at the wrong time...........the results might have been really unfortunate.



I believe the US have a justice system in place and regardless of the motive or the mental state of the defendant, they are entitled to a fair trial, no? So I don't think the sentence they're facing will come from any a.net member.

Also you cannot check every flying passenger's mental state beforehand. So unfortunately this sort of things will happen again and all that regulators and airlines can do is put procedures in place to help deal with such a situation and minimize if not eliminate impact on the safety of other passengers and the aircraft.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:48 pm

I presume the NTSB and/or the FAA will do an investigation of this incident, the pilots and cabin crew, especially as to the opening of the cockpit door. For sure the PIC and 2nd will be in trouble with the agencies as well as their airline, likely they are suspended from duty until further notice and may get further discipline as they should. Likely the FA will be forced to leave their job due to the mental anguish. The attacker should face attempted murder charges and if convicted get a long prison sentence.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm

Still crickets from JetBlue…
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:55 pm

N62NA wrote:
Saw on the news today that there have been over 4,000 people who have disrupted flights this year and only ONE person has been charged with a crime. And nobody at the DOJ sees a problem here?


Or to state it another way, congress needs to tell the DOJ just what to do via legislation. Even something as seemingly simple as this is more complicated than it appears. You may remember the post 9-11 no fly list. People would be mysteriously put on the list mistakenly and there was no redress. No fly list requires active administration. It even will cost a little.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:37 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I presume the NTSB and/or the FAA will do an investigation of this incident, the pilots and cabin crew, especially as to the opening of the cockpit door. For sure the PIC and 2nd will be in trouble with the agencies as well as their airline, likely they are suspended from duty until further notice and may get further discipline as they should. Likely the FA will be forced to leave their job due to the mental anguish. The attacker should face attempted murder charges and if convicted get a long prison sentence.


Or had the attacker been observing B6's procedure for the pilots to take a lavatory break and then attacked as the door opening was imminent
? There may be more to the story...
 
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N62NA
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:44 pm

ro1960 wrote:
I believe the US have a justice system in place and regardless of the motive or the mental state of the defendant, they are entitled to a fair trial, no? So I don't think the sentence they're facing will come from any a.net member.


The point is out of over 4,000 of these incidents, there has only been ONE prosecution. We've all seen the evidence thanks to phone video uploads. For the Federal government to only press charges in one of these cases makes me wonder what the mental state of those at DOJ who should be prosecuting these cases is.


frmrCapCadet wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Saw on the news today that there have been over 4,000 people who have disrupted flights this year and only ONE person has been charged with a crime. And nobody at the DOJ sees a problem here?


Or to state it another way, congress needs to tell the DOJ just what to do via legislation.


We've already got the Federal laws on the books for this. Interfering with a flight crew.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:33 pm

There are laws. They do not lead to easy enforcement. It is easy to say no interference with flight crew, but that in itself is a meaningless non-enforceable law. Jurisdictional, definitions, enforcement methods, dispute resolutions are all part of a law that works.
 
johns624
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:09 pm

IFlyMGN wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
IFlyMGN wrote:
I have reached the point that if I see anyone making any kind of an aggressive move toward a flight attendant, the cockpit door or an entry/emergency exit....I WILL stop them with all the force I can muster whether it be objects, belts or my bare hands. Mentally ill or not, I will not sit by and watch something like this take place. The lives of all of the other passengers and crew are simply more important.

Easy to say sitting at your keyboard…


Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


Don't think it would be that hard. My life and that of fellow passengers and crew have a very strengthening effect on the ability to increase self preservation. These flight crews have to endure enough as it is from passengers that shouldn't have even been allowed in an airport, much less on a plane.
Exactly. Somebody trying to get into the cockpit is tryin to kill me. If you just sit there or get out your smartphone to video it, you're an idiot.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:17 pm

Something does not add up. I for one want to hear more details. Its a shame we have not heard anymore yet.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:12 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
There are laws. They do not lead to easy enforcement. It is easy to say no interference with flight crew, but that in itself is a meaningless non-enforceable law. Jurisdictional, definitions, enforcement methods, dispute resolutions are all part of a law that works.


This seems pretty clear to me:

49 U.S. Code § 46504 - Interference with flight crew members and attendants

An individual on an aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States who, by assaulting or intimidating a flight crew member or flight attendant of the aircraft, interferes with the performance of the duties of the member or attendant or lessens the ability of the member or attendant to perform those duties, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 20 years, or both. However, if a dangerous weapon is used in assaulting or intimidating the member or attendant, the individual shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(Pub. L. 103–272, § 1(e), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 1244; Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, § 811(i), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 382.)
 
WNCrew
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:48 am

N62NA wrote:
Saw on the news today that there have been over 4,000 people who have disrupted flights this year and only ONE person has been charged with a crime. And nobody at the DOJ sees a problem here?


I agree but there are a few things that get in the way of the Passenger receiving any consequence:

- Airport police are not specifically trained in any way for the Aviation environment in which they work. They can be State, City, Parish, Federal etc...
I recently had an officer show up without a mask (he refused to wear one) and was there to enforce a situation Involving a mask. I also had one tell the Crew "..well it's not
illegal to be drunk on a plane.." when in fact, it is.
- Not all airlines have the same reporting systems or procedures for gathering data.
- Passengers often refuse to give us their information or give us false Identification. We can ask for a Supervisor but they can't physically "get" ID from the pax. We often
ask for Law Enforcement but many times they aren't there when we arrive.
- Pilots sometimes have their own idea of what needs to be done despite whatever resources FAs ask for upon landing.
- This is just in the US, now imagine outside the US how difficult acquiring all of these things for a report can be.
- All of this reporting occurs during Crews' downtime so with everything else they're juggling in the moment; reports can be incomplete (see above) inaccurate or delayed.

There SHOULD be, we NEED there to be, clear protocol for these situations, but industry-wide... there is no standard. Even the LEOs we rely on from city to city have no additional resources or education with which they can support Crews. If they WANT to, they can, but they have no obligation in the moment (legally) to do anything they don't personally deem necessary. As you can see, by the time a report makes its way through an Airline's SMS structure, then gets passed on to the FAA etc... there are likely many holes in the information.... and that Crew member is now 12 days into flying other assignments. There is so much room for improvement but it's never gotten enough attention.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:07 am

WNCrew wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Saw on the news today that there have been over 4,000 people who have disrupted flights this year and only ONE person has been charged with a crime. And nobody at the DOJ sees a problem here?


I agree but there are a few things that get in the way of the Passenger receiving any consequence:

- Airport police are not specifically trained in any way for the Aviation environment in which they work. They can be State, City, Parish, Federal etc...
I recently had an officer show up without a mask (he refused to wear one) and was there to enforce a situation Involving a mask. I also had one tell the Crew "..well it's not
illegal to be drunk on a plane.." when in fact, it is.
- Not all airlines have the same reporting systems or procedures for gathering data.
- Passengers often refuse to give us their information or give us false Identification. We can ask for a Supervisor but they can't physically "get" ID from the pax. We often
ask for Law Enforcement but many times they aren't there when we arrive.
- Pilots sometimes have their own idea of what needs to be done despite whatever resources FAs ask for upon landing.
- This is just in the US, now imagine outside the US how difficult acquiring all of these things for a report can be.
- All of this reporting occurs during Crews' downtime so with everything else they're juggling in the moment; reports can be incomplete (see above) inaccurate or delayed.

There SHOULD be, we NEED there to be, clear protocol for these situations, but industry-wide... there is no standard. Even the LEOs we rely on from city to city have no additional resources or education with which they can support Crews. If they WANT to, they can, but they have no obligation in the moment (legally) to do anything they don't personally deem necessary. As you can see, by the time a report makes its way through an Airline's SMS structure, then gets passed on to the FAA etc... there are likely many holes in the information.... and that Crew member is now 12 days into flying other assignments. There is so much room for improvement but it's never gotten enough attention.



Thanks for your very thoughtful post. It was both informative and horrifying to learn firsthand from someone like you who is on the front lines that our law enforcement and justice system is utterly incapable of properly dealing with 99% of these cases.
 
mjba257
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 am

What is wrong with people? A lot of people will say the mask mandates are causing this, which I am sure is true for a lot of disgruntled pax, but stuff as extreme is this no way. Something else is at play and whoever can figure it out is going to be a rich man.
 
hamiltondaniel
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:08 am

mjba257 wrote:
Something else is at play and whoever can figure it out is going to be a rich man.


It's not complicated. The last two years have been hell, and people are having a hard time. When stress goes up - say, due to unemployment rates hitting 20%, due to a global pandemic killing 4.6 million people, due to a bunch of idiots trying to overthrow the government - people freak out.

If we want the number of incidents like this to start going down, we need to understand the human beings are fragile, emotional creatures. They do crazy things when they're scared. And there's a lot of people who are really, really scared right now.

The law enforcement approach won't help, because it only operates after the fact. Threaten a wounded animal with a cage and see what happens.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8391
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:02 am

hamiltondaniel wrote:
mjba257 wrote:
Something else is at play and whoever can figure it out is going to be a rich man.


It's not complicated. The last two years have been hell, and people are having a hard time. When stress goes up - say, due to unemployment rates hitting 20%, due to a global pandemic killing 4.6 million people, due to a bunch of idiots trying to overthrow the government - people freak out.

If we want the number of incidents like this to start going down, we need to understand the human beings are fragile, emotional creatures. They do crazy things when they're scared. And there's a lot of people who are really, really scared right now.

The law enforcement approach won't help, because it only operates after the fact. Threaten a wounded animal with a cage and see what happens.


People aren’t wounded animals; socialization as a child is supposed to teach self-control, resilience and thinking. That’s been lost in today’s world. Look at indulgent parents and their brat kids everywhere. Look at the wild driving now with zero law enforcement. Look at the lack of judicial action in these incidents, which are very public. The police are “on strike”; the infantile, self-absorbed public knows that fact and take license
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:16 am

slvrblt wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


No. Time for an automatic jail sentence, AND permanent national no fly ban. How long will people like this be allowed to carry on like idiots?? If you're an idiot, then spend some jail time thinking about it. No BS, no trials, no bleeding hearts wailing the excuses. Immediate jail time plus whatever, can't plead not guilty when you cause a diversion, emergency landing, or assault crew members/passengers. This has been in the news so much there's no excuse for this sort of thing anymore, but there are few consequences so far. Oh, the poor thing has mental problems. Don't care; Don't fly then, unless you have a medical professional's certified clearance. Plenty of people with other issues do need prior clearances to fly and do present them at check-in. Unfortunately - there's one thing that WILL wake everyone up to enforcement - one of these nutcases will cause a crash. And it appears that this nut on Jet blue actually had his chance at infamy- if he'd have moved fast, with that cockpit door opening at the wrong time...........the results might have been really unfortunate.

So you just want to disregard the Constitution and other laws?
 
hamiltondaniel
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:40 am

Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
People aren’t wounded animals; socialization as a child is supposed to teach self-control, resilience and thinking. That’s been lost in today’s world. Look at indulgent parents and their brat kids everywhere. Look at the wild driving now with zero law enforcement. Look at the lack of judicial action in these incidents, which are very public. The police are “on strike”; the infantile, self-absorbed public knows that fact and take license


GalaxyFlyer, I really respect your opinion and have enjoyed our exchanges in other threads, but I would urge you to consider the ways your perspective might be narrow here.

Yes, a well-adjusted, well-socialized person will, in ideal situations, be able to practice self-control. That's most people most of the time. That still leaves some people some of the time who are going to crack. For you and me, flying is an awesome, liberating experience - I cherish it. For a lot of people, like my wife, it's an anxiety-ridden, terror-inducing nightmare, and she literally can't get on a plane without a Xanax or a glass of wine. She responds to stress and terror by shutting down and turning inward; a lot of people respond to stress and terror by freaking out. If the baseline level of social anxiety increases, you're going to have more people edging over the line of self-control and freaking out.

I'll also say that your hypothesis that "indulgent parents" or "today's world" are to blame doesn't hold up. If the problem were really due to generational shifts in values or in the way we raise kids, we would see overall crime levels rising over the last few decades. We see the opposite. There's fewer drunk driving fatalities than there's ever been. There's less domestic violence than there's ever been (or at least, there was - until March 2020).

Before COVID, American cities had never been safer and Americans had never been less likely to get into car crashes, kill one another in the street, steal their neighbor's television, or lose their minds on an airplane.

Now, we see rates of all the above skyrocketing. If you really believe that's just a coincidence, I'm not sure what to tell you beyond, "Statisticians, criminal behaviorists, and sociologists would all disagree."
 
tax1k
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:02 am

Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:24 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
slvrblt wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:

Time for a national do not fly list with people like this. It’s getting absolutely out of hand.


No. Time for an automatic jail sentence, AND permanent national no fly ban. How long will people like this be allowed to carry on like idiots?? If you're an idiot, then spend some jail time thinking about it. No BS, no trials, no bleeding hearts wailing the excuses. Immediate jail time plus whatever, can't plead not guilty when you cause a diversion, emergency landing, or assault crew members/passengers. This has been in the news so much there's no excuse for this sort of thing anymore, but there are few consequences so far. Oh, the poor thing has mental problems. Don't care; Don't fly then, unless you have a medical professional's certified clearance. Plenty of people with other issues do need prior clearances to fly and do present them at check-in. Unfortunately - there's one thing that WILL wake everyone up to enforcement - one of these nutcases will cause a crash. And it appears that this nut on Jet blue actually had his chance at infamy- if he'd have moved fast, with that cockpit door opening at the wrong time...........the results might have been really unfortunate.

So you just want to disregard the Constitution and other laws?

There has to be a distinction made between preventive measures and punitive measures. I’m not an expert but it’s hard to imagine a crew member or passenger being civilly or criminally liable for physically preventing this kind of behavior, even if the disruptive subject finds that intervention very unpleasant. After the fact, when everyone is safe on the ground, constitutional protections should apply to any legal proceedings.

IMHO, the problem is that FAs are asked to wear too many hats. Obviously primary role is safety but no one wants to think about that. The customer service function is secondary in theory but gets more emphasis from airlines and customers because smiling FA serving cocktails sells more seats than helping people down a slide. But expecting FAs to play law enforcement also is really going too far.
 
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Re: Passenger Attacks jetBlue FA, Tries To Enter Cockpit In Flight

Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:43 pm

tax1k wrote:
There has to be a distinction made between preventive measures and punitive measures. I’m not an expert but it’s hard to imagine a crew member or passenger being civilly or criminally liable for physically preventing this kind of behavior, even if the disruptive subject finds that intervention very unpleasant. After the fact, when everyone is safe on the ground, constitutional protections should apply to any legal proceedings.

IMHO, the problem is that FAs are asked to wear too many hats. Obviously primary role is safety but no one wants to think about that. The customer service function is secondary in theory but gets more emphasis from airlines and customers because smiling FA serving cocktails sells more seats than helping people down a slide. But expecting FAs to play law enforcement also is really going too far.


Good points. And they're not getting any help from the justice system. Time for some airline industry lobbying to get going on K Street in Washington DC.

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