CrimsonNL wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Very easy to fly all that in on a cargo plane

I’ve loaded a 747 with an RB211 and all the tooling and kits needed to change an engine. And believe it or not a small drive around crane.

How did all that gear unloaded ? I ask as do we know if MDY has cargo loaders that 1) reach the belly cargo holds 2) reach the main deck ? You would assume there are available forklifts on the island, but are they big enough to reach the main deck of a freighter to unload an engine ? Without these cargo handling luxuries, you would need an aircraft with ramps, such as the AN124, etc

Google maps of all places, seems to have the entire island covered including the airport (taken in 2012). There doesn't seem to be much equipment there at all at the time. You can even look inside the hangar but there's nothing noteworthy in there;

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.2100051 ... 312!8i6656

(and holy cow look at the number of Albatrosses across the various viewpoints on the isle!)

?

While I don’t see the hangar cranes in operation, the back side hangars are full of heavy equipment including a large fork lift, bobcats, excavators, flat bed trucks.

There is also a tennis court with a high fence around it.

cschleic wrote:

zeke wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

How did all that gear unloaded ? I ask as do we know if MDY has cargo loaders that 1) reach the belly cargo holds 2) reach the main deck ? You would assume there are available forklifts on the island, but are they big enough to reach the main deck of a freighter to unload an engine ? Without these cargo handling luxuries, you would need an aircraft with ramps, such as the AN124, etc

Just about any sort of heavy equipment you would expect at any airport is available in MDY, they also have heavy equipment for unloading large shipping containers. This includes bulldozers, mobile cranes, telehandlers, large forklifts capable of stacking 40 ft shipping containers, fire trucks are on the atoll.

The question is not are the physically present, it’s how do you get access to them, who operates them, and how they get paid for.

As MDY is a common port to support EDTO for the airline, and I understand also an occasional charter destination, I would be very surprised if they don’t already have arraignments in place.

Doesn't an airport have to have a certain amount of equipment to be an eligible diversion alternative?

Most of the requirements for an alternate concerns safety (runway length, CFR, etc.) and passenger protection (a building to keep from freezing to death at Yakutsk for example, sanitary facilities, basic passenger services like food for an ETOPS alternate in a remote location).

Yes, US airlines do have to have a maintenance contract with a contractor to get an alternate approved, but the technical support is generally minimal.....like servicing engine oil or changing a tire. They can also add MEL'S when working with with maintenance controller over the phone or computer. An engine change or a gear swing done by a contractor is a deeper level of tech support than that required for an alternate.

I've seen them referred to as "alternative airports" by Europeans, we call them alternate airports in the USA since the rules are completely different between the countries/regions.

The engine was not shut down.
Delta was not apart of the rescue team.
There was no engine change.
HAL mechanics fixed the problem.
The plane returned to HNL safely.

I know they don't fit in at the speculation party, but those are the facts.

Coronado990 wrote:

Perhaps Delta went to the wrong Midway.

Did I say MDW? Yep, I did. That's hilarious. I meant to type out "Midway" and ended up typing "MDW". Probably comes from all the time I spent there years ago. Good catch.

azjubilee wrote:

The engine was not shut down.
Delta was not apart of the rescue team.
There was no engine change.
HAL mechanics fixed the problem.
The plane returned to HNL safely.

I know they don't fit in at the speculation party, but those are the facts.

Well, that's a little-aggressive, my friend.

A DL guy said that they were putting together a team to go there with a new engine. Your facts don't undermine that statement. It sounds like HAL mechanics either were on the plane or got there on the protection flight, and were able to fix it. So that's good, but why the attitude?

As to there being no engine shutdown in your telling, can we agree there was an oil pressure or quantity issue sufficient to cause the pilots to think it best to put the thing down on Midway Atoll? So they kept it running with a significant oil leak. That changes the ultimate analysis a little, but not much. And if it had seized while still "not shut down", that probably would have been A Bad Thing, but fortunately it didn't.

The tracking data is a little-sketchy, but it does appear that an A332 came from HNL, and that that plane presumably took the pax back to HNL, followed the next day by the repaired aircraft. It doesn't seem like some mechanics just replaced an o-ring and everyone got back on and flew to HNL. And I notice that the incident aircraft is still out of service.

In any event, a good job all around, and I'm glad everything worked out.

RB211trent wrote:

You need a crane to swop the nose cowl, exhaust etc. Regarding the leak, if it’s not internal replacement parts/seals are needed. You can’t just bodge some sealant and hope for the best.

The inlet cowl is 500 lb, and the exhaust 550 lb, seen it all done manually before, even the engine being lifted in place with the lifting beams.

cschleic wrote:

Doesn't an airport have to have a certain amount of equipment to be an eligible diversion alternative?

No, not unless it’s been planned as a beyond 180 min EDTO flight. Diversions for us need someone there that knows the airports conditions and can report them, (ie. Issue notams), fire fighting capability, ATC, navigation aid, lights if the planned arrival is at night, and an instrument approach. I have diverted into smaller airports before and made up my own parking arrangements as I know there would be no towbar there so I self positioned to be able to get out under my own power.

Dalmd88 wrote:

Once Kallita arrived, It was I believe the Memorial Day holiday. the contractors. who were the only ones allowed to drive the fork lift, only unloaded the 747 and would not move any more. Only after calls to the DOD in the Pentagon did the contractors grudgingly work on the holiday so they could move the new engine to the airplane. My buddies called it the road trip to hell. The rare Midway Passport stamp and t-shirt from the store were not worth it.

It’s the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service that has most of the heavy equipment on the island that airlines have negotiated contracts with. Examples of FWS fees at MDY

Attended hours of operation

0 < 12,500 lbs. MGLW $500/day
12,500 < 60,000 lbs. MGLW $750/day
Over 60,000 lbs. MGLW $1000/day

Unattended hours of operation

0 < 12,500 lbs. MGLW $1000/day
12,500 < 60,000 lbs. MGLW $1500/day
Over 60,000 lbs. MGLW $2000/day

Emergency Prices Vary


Parking/ Ramp Fees

0 < 12,500 lbs. MGLW $300/day
12,500 < 60,000 lbs. MGLW $500/day
Over 60,000 lbs. MGLW $700/day
Aircraft Fuel (JP-5) $20/gal
Refuel Truck $250/trip
Air Stairs $50/hour
Ground Power Unit $50/hour

Labor and Equipment Fees
Item Hourly Rental Daily Rental
Backhoe $150 $700
Bulldozer $300 $1,300
Crane 60K $450 $1,900
Flat Bed 5 Ton Truck $100 $350
Forklift 4K $100 $400
Forklift 10K $110 $450
Forklift 12K $125 $500
Loader $200 $900
Low-boy Tractor Truck $200 $900
Man Lift $125 $500
Mini Tiger Truck $75 $250
Pick-up truck (Compact) $85 $300
Skid Steer $100 $400
Telehandler $125 $500
Tractor/Brush Hog $100 $350
Vacuum Truck $150 $600
Air Compressor $40 $250
Generator $35 $250
Dump Truck $125 $500
Excavator $450 $1,900
Extended and/or special use equipment rates are negotiable. Some lifting equipment has not been weight test certified. Additional fees may apply for moving and setting up equipment.
Labor

Skilled Laborer $64/hr
Laborer/Equipment Operator $25/hr
Additional fee for supplies/materials (retail price + transportation cost).

azjubilee wrote:

The engine was not shut down.
Delta was not apart of the rescue team.
There was no engine change.
HAL mechanics fixed the problem.
The plane returned to HNL safely.

I know they don't fit in at the speculation party, but those are the facts.

You'd be wrong. I see the notes and what was sent where.

They did indeed shutdown the engine, hence the diversion in the first place.

Delta and HA mechanics were absolutely on the roadtrip, DL also brought parts and like the engine bolt kits and any parts they thought they needed, including the tube they ended up replacing.

If you'd read the thread, I corrected myself on the engine change. Again, they had initially planned an engine change if Rolls engineering couldn't approve a ferry.

Again, DL and HA mechanics fixed the problem. HA pays DL for total care on their A330 fleet, so you best believe HA will get their money's worth.

The only thing you got right here is that they made it back safely.

LTEN11 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

An engine change, see UA 777 cases, would be quite a challenge on Midway. My squadron did a trip in there when the USN left. I very much doubt any cranes, lifts, etc for an engine change are positioned there, just in case.

Very easy to fly all that in on a cargo plane

I’ve loaded a 747 with an RB211 and all the tooling and kits needed to change an engine. And believe it or not a small drive around crane.

How did all that gear unloaded ? I ask as do we know if MDY has cargo loaders that 1) reach the belly cargo holds 2) reach the main deck ? You would assume there are available forklifts on the island, but are they big enough to reach the main deck of a freighter to unload an engine ? Without these cargo handling luxuries, you would need an aircraft with ramps, such as the AN124, etc

LAS had equipment to offload

wjcandee wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

[Looks like they have a good idea of what failed and caused the leak and are ready to repair it there with how little gear they show.

Really doesn't look like prepping for an engine change. More like replacing a seal and filling the engine up with those 4 boxes of oil.

Good point. Your observations are consistent with our friend from DL who indicated that at first DL was going to send an engine and a team to change it out to MDW, but that maint had instead authorized a ferry.

Does DL do all of HAL's engine maint, or did HAL simply reach out for a great AOG team?

MDW?

zeke wrote:

RB211trent wrote:

You need a crane to swop the nose cowl, exhaust etc. Regarding the leak, if it’s not internal replacement parts/seals are needed. You can’t just bodge some sealant and hope for the best.

The inlet cowl is 500 lb, and the exhaust 550 lb, seen it all done manually before, even the engine being lifted in place with the lifting beams.
.

You’ve seen a nose cowl change on an A330 done by hand…..I doubt that very much.

RB211trent wrote:

zeke wrote:

RB211trent wrote:

You need a crane to swop the nose cowl, exhaust etc. Regarding the leak, if it’s not internal replacement parts/seals are needed. You can’t just bodge some sealant and hope for the best.

The inlet cowl is 500 lb, and the exhaust 550 lb, seen it all done manually before, even the engine being lifted in place with the lifting beams.
.

You’ve seen a nose cowl change on an A330 done by hand…..I doubt that very much.

There is a nose call stand. I’ve loaded one on a 747 for an RB211

https://insidedefense.com/insider/air-f ... nt-program

Boof02671 wrote:

RB211trent wrote:

zeke wrote:

The inlet cowl is 500 lb, and the exhaust 550 lb, seen it all done manually before, even the engine being lifted in place with the lifting beams.
.

You’ve seen a nose cowl change on an A330 done by hand…..I doubt that very much.

There is a nose call stand. I’ve loaded one on a 747 for an RB211

Boof02671 wrote:

MDW?

Read reply 54 above.

777Mech wrote:

You'd be wrong. I see the notes and what was sent where. [...]

The only thing you got right here is that they made it back safely.

Thanks as always for your detailed, knowledgeable posts.

777Mech wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

The engine was not shut down.
Delta was not apart of the rescue team.
There was no engine change.
HAL mechanics fixed the problem.
The plane returned to HNL safely.

I know they don't fit in at the speculation party, but those are the facts.

You'd be wrong. I see the notes and what was sent where.

They did indeed shutdown the engine, hence the diversion in the first place.

Delta and HA mechanics were absolutely on the roadtrip, DL also brought parts and like the engine bolt kits and any parts they thought they needed, including the tube they ended up replacing.

If you'd read the thread, I corrected myself on the engine change. Again, they had initially planned an engine change if Rolls engineering couldn't approve a ferry.

Again, DL and HA mechanics fixed the problem. HA pays DL for total care on their A330 fleet, so you best believe HA will get their money's worth.

The only thing you got right here is that they made it back safely.

*mic drop*

Sometimes a.net egos are more important & appearing to be right.....

Midway Island sure sounds like an interesting diversion point. I wonder if theres a staging area for the passengers.

777Mech wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

The engine was not shut down.
Delta was not apart of the rescue team.
There was no engine change.
HAL mechanics fixed the problem.
The plane returned to HNL safely.

I know they don't fit in at the speculation party, but those are the facts.

You'd be wrong. I see the notes and what was sent where.

They did indeed shutdown the engine, hence the diversion in the first place.

Delta and HA mechanics were absolutely on the roadtrip, DL also brought parts and like the engine bolt kits and any parts they thought they needed, including the tube they ended up replacing.

If you'd read the thread, I corrected myself on the engine change. Again, they had initially planned an engine change if Rolls engineering couldn't approve a ferry.

Again, DL and HA mechanics fixed the problem. HA pays DL for total care on their A330 fleet, so you best believe HA will get their money's worth.

The only thing you got right here is that they made it back safely.

Sorry to say you are absolutely wrong. There were NO Delta mechanics involved. 2 HAL mechanics, along with 4 HAL pilots were on the rescue flight. The engine was NOT shutdown until after landing. Thrust however, was kept at idle.

777Mech wrote:

azjubilee wrote:

The engine was not shut down.
Delta was not apart of the rescue team.
There was no engine change.
HAL mechanics fixed the problem.
The plane returned to HNL safely.

I know they don't fit in at the speculation party, but those are the facts.

You'd be wrong. I see the notes and what was sent where.

They did indeed shutdown the engine, hence the diversion in the first place.

Delta and HA mechanics were absolutely on the roadtrip, DL also brought parts and like the engine bolt kits and any parts they thought they needed, including the tube they ended up replacing.

If you'd read the thread, I corrected myself on the engine change. Again, they had initially planned an engine change if Rolls engineering couldn't approve a ferry.

Again, DL and HA mechanics fixed the problem. HA pays DL for total care on their A330 fleet, so you best believe HA will get their money's worth.

The only thing you got right here is that they made it back safely.

No, the engine was not shut down. It wouldn't have to be in order to make the decision to divert. Also, I am wholly unaware of DL mechanics being on the rescue team. If they were, where'd they come from?

Separate question... what exactly is "Total Care?" Because DL doesn't "totally" care for the HAL 330s.

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

azjubilee wrote:

Separate question... what exactly is "Total Care?" Because DL doesn't "totally" care for the HAL 330s.

TotalCare is Rolls-Royce's Power-by-the-Hour maintenance and service agreement for their engines:

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/our-s ... lcare.aspx

As I understand it, an airline pays an hourly rate to "use" the engine and Rolls-Royce picks up all maintenance, repair, and overhaul costs on the engine.

How that plays out in an AOG situation like this, I don't know. Speculating: If Hawaiian has TotalCare with Rolls-Royce for their A330's and Delta TechOps is the maintenance supplier for the Hawaiian TotalCare contact, then Delta TechOps could/would be involved in a potential AOG situation, especially if an engine change in a remote location is necessary. However, if it is a simple fix and Hawaiian's own mechanics out of HNL have the part in stock and can fix it faster than Delta TechOps can get out to MDY, then that could have been what happened here. Delta TechOps may have been alerted early that their assistance for an engine change may be necessary, but after the Hawaiian mechanics got to MDY and fixed it with what they brought, they were probably called off. Again, pure speculation, but reasonable based upon some of the comments previously in the thread about Delta being involved in a fix. Does Delta TechOps have anyone at HNL for routine maintenance on Hawaiian TotalCare aircraft?

EDIT: Okay, Hawaiian has Delta TechOps Complete Fleet Services, so no TotalCare from Rolls-Royce as that would be redundant, I assume. However, that would explain why Delta TechOps would be involved very early on since they are caring for the engines.

jjbiv wrote:

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

Total Care agreements are with Rolls-Royce, which subcontracts out the work to different parties, including Delta. I know Delta provides some contract maintenance work to Hawaiian at outstations, but does not have a fleet agreement for the A330.

STLflyer wrote:

Out of curiosity, if the mechanics have to spend a few days on the island to fix the plane, what services are available for them? I'm guessing there's not much in the way of hotels and restaurants on the island. Are they stuck sleeping in the business class seats and eating whatever they can find in the galley?

Are you kidding? I'd volunteer to run mx for that flight if I got to stay at Midway. That's about the coolest damn thing for a history buff on earth lol - I could only imagine what one might find just walking the beaches. Worst case you string up some hammocks in the downed plane or put a row together lol.

Either way, sounds like a non-event as they got the plane out of there pretty quickly.

EDIT: OMG this A330 had 67 pax and 12 crew?!?! AND they had to send a rescue aircraft, maintenance staff, etc? Oooooouuuuuuucccccchhhhhhh, there goes their profit for the week lol!

sxf24 wrote:

jjbiv wrote:

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

Total Care agreements are with Rolls-Royce, which subcontracts out the work to different parties, including Delta. I know Delta provides some contract maintenance work to Hawaiian at outstations, but does not have a fleet agreement for the A330.

Could you please provide a source for your statement?

From the previously posted Delta.com link:
Delta TechOps has provided its Complete Fleet services for Hawaiian since 2009 across its Airbus A330 fleet.

jjbiv wrote:

sxf24 wrote:

jjbiv wrote:

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

Total Care agreements are with Rolls-Royce, which subcontracts out the work to different parties, including Delta. I know Delta provides some contract maintenance work to Hawaiian at outstations, but does not have a fleet agreement for the A330.

Could you please provide a source for your statement?

From the previously posted Delta.com link:
Delta TechOps has provided its Complete Fleet services for Hawaiian since 2009 across its Airbus A330 fleet.

I'm still troubled by the concept of "Complete Fleet" or "Total Care." I know DL does C checks in MSP, A checks in some stations on the west coast like SEA and LAX. Some line maintenance in certain cities in North America is done by DL as well. HAL and DL collaborate on many initiatives behind the scenes. Some stations are outsourced, perhaps where there are no DL mechanics, including stations in Asia/Aussie/NZ. H checks were done by QANTAS in BNE prior to Covid and when the borders closed, that work was sent to SIN. HAL Mechanics does all the maintenance in Hawaii stations, including engine changes. Those same Mechanics travel on the PPT and PPG flights to provide required service. Perhaps it isn't as "complete" and "total" as the words suggest. Clearly the program is customizable per the PDF provided and HAL has some sort of hybrid program going on.

jjbiv wrote:

sxf24 wrote:

jjbiv wrote:

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

Total Care agreements are with Rolls-Royce, which subcontracts out the work to different parties, including Delta. I know Delta provides some contract maintenance work to Hawaiian at outstations, but does not have a fleet agreement for the A330.

Could you please provide a source for your statement?

From the previously posted Delta.com link:
Delta TechOps has provided its Complete Fleet services for Hawaiian since 2009 across its Airbus A330 fleet.

I know people at Delta and Hawaiian?

There are contracts in place, but Delta does not provide complete or total maintenance for Hawaiian, which has an extremely capable tech ops organization.

Total Care is Rolls-Royce engine support program and is only provided by Rolls-Royce. Delta even contracts with Rolls-Royce for work that is subcontracted back to Delta TechOps!

ikramerica wrote:

CrimsonNL wrote:

LTEN11 wrote:

How did all that gear unloaded ? I ask as do we know if MDY has cargo loaders that 1) reach the belly cargo holds 2) reach the main deck ? You would assume there are available forklifts on the island, but are they big enough to reach the main deck of a freighter to unload an engine ? Without these cargo handling luxuries, you would need an aircraft with ramps, such as the AN124, etc

Google maps of all places, seems to have the entire island covered including the airport (taken in 2012). There doesn't seem to be much equipment there at all at the time. You can even look inside the hangar but there's nothing noteworthy in there;

https://www.google.com/maps/@28.2100051 ... 312!8i6656

(and holy cow look at the number of Albatrosses across the various viewpoints on the isle!)

?

While I don’t see the hangar cranes in operation, the back side hangars are full of heavy equipment including a large fork lift, bobcats, excavators, flat bed trucks.

There is also a tennis court with a high fence around it.

Dalmd88's buddies said it was a boring wait, that tennis court must be for members only...

sxf24 wrote:

jjbiv wrote:

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

Total Care agreements are with Rolls-Royce, which subcontracts out the work to different parties, including Delta. I know Delta provides some contract maintenance work to Hawaiian at outstations, but does not have a fleet agreement for the A330.

Hawaiian absolutely does have Complete Fleet for their A330, and have had it since 2009. This is why you see A330s go to MSP for C-Checks, for the heavy checks, DL subs out to SASCO in SIN.

777Mech wrote:

sxf24 wrote:

jjbiv wrote:

This might clarify the maintenance relationship between DL and HA a bit: https://news.delta.com/techops-expands- ... n-airlines
Delta TechOps provides Hawaiian with their Complete Fleet services. Here is a PDF description of those services: https://www.deltatechops.com/PDF/aircra ... es-dto.pdf

Total Care agreements are with Rolls-Royce, which subcontracts out the work to different parties, including Delta. I know Delta provides some contract maintenance work to Hawaiian at outstations, but does not have a fleet agreement for the A330.

Hawaiian absolutely does have Complete Fleet for their A330, and have had it since 2009. This is why you see A330s go to MSP for C-Checks, for the heavy checks, DL subs out to SASCO in SIN.

I guess that may be marketed as Complete Fleet, but that’s not what I would equate to Total Care and not an agreement that would make Delta responsible for engine maintenance or change.

Let’s stop making this thread about Delta. That’s what the rest of Anet is for.

777Mech wrote:

Hawaiian absolutely does have Complete Fleet for their A330, and have had it since 2009. This is why you see A330s go to MSP for C-Checks, for the heavy checks, DL subs out to SASCO in SIN.

You are talking past tense, SIAEC does it now.

Jim Landers, senior vice president, Technical Operations at Hawaiian Airlines, said: “This agreement is a testament to the demonstrated performance of SIAEC on work performed to date on our A330 fleet. In a maintenance provider, we expect and rely on timeliness, quality, and value. SIAEC has not only delivered on all three but additionally demonstrated flexibility and responsiveness through the challenges of the COVID turmoil. We are confident in our choice of SIAEC as a long-term provider and partner.”

From https://asianaviation.com/sia-engineeri ... -airlines/