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alberchico
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United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:46 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?
 
Aliqiout
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:55 pm

It's less than 1%. Doesn't sound too high.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:01 pm

Also found in the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/09/29 ... ne-mandate

The company said on Wednesday that it had already begun its termination process for its U.S.-based employees. Workers losing their jobs because of noncompliance with the mandate make up less than 1 percent of the airline’s work force.

“We will work with folks if during that process they decide to get vaccinated,” said a spokeswoman at United Airlines, which did not give a timeline for the termination process.


Does the employee memo detail the termination process? Effective date?
 
evanb
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:02 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


How many does United employe these days? 80k, 90k?
 
panamair
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:04 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:06 pm

United need to target a few employees who they have been wanting to fire for other reasons... and give them a 1 week ultimatum. As soon as maybe a couple of people get fired, word will spread fast internally, and almost all the remaining 593 holdouts will back down
 
airbazar
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:11 pm

panamair wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!

Well, considering they are already understaffed and how strong the job market is right now, this could come back to bite them either in the form of continuing to be understaffed or having to hire from the bottom of the barrel.
No one is buying tickets based on the vaccination status of the airline employees so I really don't understand United's position here.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:18 pm

evanb wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


How many does United employe these days? 80k, 90k?


84,400 effective 6/30/21, according to the 10-Q.
 
JibberJim
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:20 pm

But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:20 pm

Nobody is buying tickets based on vaccination status, because all airlines have had a clear and very public policy of making life difficult for non-vaxed employees, thus ensuring vaccination levels are very high. Customers know this policy exists, and therefore do not feel the need to factor staff vax levels in the mix when choosing an airline.

However, a company needs to be seen to be fair and retain credibility.... if it is seen to apply a policy inconsistently, it risks either being sued from people who vaxed reluctantly, or being ignored with other future policies. By all means, issue a final warning of "you have 1 week or else", but ultimately United has to follow through on its threat
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:22 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
United need to target a few employees who they have been wanting to fire for other reasons... and give them a 1 week ultimatum. As soon as maybe a couple of people get fired, word will spread fast internally, and almost all the remaining 593 holdouts will back down


I'm not sure you understand U.S. union contracts and the effects of 'targeting' employees. About 62K U.S. employees are unionized.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:26 pm

airbazar wrote:
panamair wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!

Well, considering they are already understaffed and how strong the job market is right now, this could come back to bite them either in the form of continuing to be understaffed or having to hire from the bottom of the barrel.
No one is buying tickets based on the vaccination status of the airline employees so I really don't understand United's position here.


Except of all the US3 and WN, United was the only carrier that avoided operational meltdowns do to staffing issues and United has been hiring at some hubs and line stations since late January 2021 not sure why new hires are considered bottom of the barrel employees in your eyes.

As far as the mandate I was surprised to see them apply the mandate to all United employees I thought and I expected United to simply apply the mandate to pilots and flight attendants because as countries reopen I expect many of them will adopt some form of vaccine requirement for entry without any exemptions for crew. I felt like United wanted to get ahead of it to make sure we would be able to resumes international flights as countries reopened.

For the 593 employees who chose not to get vaccinated I must say I'm surprised the number is so low. When United first announced this mandate the number of employees who said they would never get vaccinated and were willing to risk their jobs numbered in the thousands. I would estimate United probably had over 20,000 employees that were not vaccinated at the time the mandate was announced and there were a lot of employees who stated they would never get vaccinated. For that number to have come down to just 593 employees (not including religious exemption), speaks for itself. Whether you understand it, don't understand it, agree with it or disagree with it, United was able to get the number of unvaccinated employees down from an estimated 20,000 to 593 once adjusted for religious exemptions. United had a lot of employee pass away from COVID in 2020 (A LOT of employees), I think this is win for employees in that it cuts down on the risk of transmission while at work in the break rooms or when you another employee are in the confined space of a cargo compartment or any other work space where you have to be in close proximity to another person for extended periods of time.
Last edited by jayunited on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:27 pm

Targeting in the sense that you cannot schedule meetings for all 593 people at the same instantaneous moment in time. One person has to be first into the meeting room with HR. The meeting room can be booked for 30 minute slots for different employees over a few days. Issue invites to a meeting with HR to all 593 at the same time... but propose the undesired employees get a meeting earlier rather than later
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:31 pm

While medical and religious exemptions mean the number of unvaccinated is higher, this is facinating the overall quantity is so low. This shouldn't effect opperations this winter and by next summer, UA could staff up.

Lightsaber

Late edit, I see the OP link has 2,000 apply for exemptions. 2000/67,000=3%. That is impressive 96% of the employees are vaccinated.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:34 pm

JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

Less than 3% have been granted exemptions
 
Aliqiout
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:37 pm

airbazar wrote:
panamair wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!

Well, considering they are already understaffed and how strong the job market is right now, this could come back to bite them either in the form of continuing to be understaffed or having to hire from the bottom of the barrel.
No one is buying tickets based on the vaccination status of the airline employees so I really don't understand United's position here.

Maybe they want to protect their employees from getting sick to avoid operational problems and other expenses from extensive sick leave.
 
448205
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:38 pm

They probably have other jobs lined up. The labor market is on fire right now.
 
PhilipBass
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:46 pm

If you object to vaccination then get immune the old fashioned way; infect yourself with the live virus. Are you willing to (not) die for your beliefs?
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:48 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Targeting in the sense that you cannot schedule meetings for all 593 people at the same instantaneous moment in time. One person has to be first into the meeting room with HR. The meeting room can be booked for 30 minute slots for different employees over a few days. Issue invites to a meeting with HR to all 593 at the same time... but propose the undesired employees get a meeting earlier rather than later

This isn’t some new development, UA has been clear from the start that the employees that do not get vaccinated and do not have a proper exemption will get terminated. So I’m not sure how “targeting” a select few from the group and firing them will suddenly result in the other holdouts complying. They knew this was coming.
Last edited by Polot on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:49 pm

JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.


Religious exemptions are not that cut and dry - you have to be able to demonstrate to HR that your religious faith a. covers this situation and b. has been a serious part of your life for a demonstrable length of time. Just claiming 'I am x religion and my priest said I don't have to get the vaccine' doesn't fly.
 
Boof02671
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:51 pm

The courts have ruled lately they religious exemptions aren’t grounds not to get the vaccine

Funny no where in the Old or New Testaments say it’s against a religion to be vaccinated.

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/10410175 ... =algorithm
Last edited by Boof02671 on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:01 pm

Polot wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Targeting in the sense that you cannot schedule meetings for all 593 people at the same instantaneous moment in time. One person has to be first into the meeting room with HR. The meeting room can be booked for 30 minute slots for different employees over a few days. Issue invites to a meeting with HR to all 593 at the same time... but propose the undesired employees get a meeting earlier rather than later

This isn’t some new development, UA has been clear from the start that the employees that do not get vaccinated and do not have a proper exemption will get terminated. So I’m not sure how “targeting” a select few from the group and firing them will suddenly result in the other holdouts complying. They knew this was coming.


The employee who is due to have an afternoon meeting with HR and who sees a colleague being escorted off site in the morning might decide that calling United's bluff is not a good idea later that day
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
panamair
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:03 pm

airbazar wrote:
panamair wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!

Well, considering they are already understaffed and how strong the job market is right now, this could come back to bite them either in the form of continuing to be understaffed or having to hire from the bottom of the barrel.
No one is buying tickets based on the vaccination status of the airline employees so I really don't understand United's position here.


It will depend on which departments these 593 are in. Certain job classes are still attracting a significant number of applicants etc. Usually pilots and flight attendants have higher vax rates than other positions in the company anyway.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:04 pm

airbazar wrote:
panamair wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!

Well, considering they are already understaffed and how strong the job market is right now, this could come back to bite them either in the form of continuing to be understaffed or having to hire from the bottom of the barrel.
No one is buying tickets based on the vaccination status of the airline employees so I really don't understand United's position here.


Mainline jobs are still highly competitive. Alas, working as a FA is a lot more appealing that working as a checker at a grocery store.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:29 pm

Please post on topic.
 
subramak1
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:16 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
If you object to vaccination then get immune the old fashioned way; infect yourself with the live virus. Are you willing to (not) die for your beliefs?


That has three risks

1. The person infected could die
2. The person will infect many others
3. The protection from infection itself is shortlived

Subramanian
 
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Spacepope
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:19 pm

subramak1 wrote:
PhilipBass wrote:
If you object to vaccination then get immune the old fashioned way; infect yourself with the live virus. Are you willing to (not) die for your beliefs?


That has three risks

1. The person infected could die
2. The person will infect many others
3. The protection from infection itself is shortlived

Subramanian

I work with several Covid longhaulers. Trust me, you do NOT want to get this virus, even if you survive there is a good chance you will never lead the life you did before.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:29 pm

JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:30 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
They probably have other jobs lined up. The labor market is on fire right now.

This… GA is hiring like mad right now.
 
nclarks
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:39 pm

subramak1 wrote:
PhilipBass wrote:
If you object to vaccination then get immune the old fashioned way; infect yourself with the live virus. Are you willing to (not) die for your beliefs?


That has three risks

1. The person infected could die
2. The person will infect many others
3. The protection from infection itself is shortlived

Subramanian


Protection from the actual virus is short lived? Do you have data supporting this? The data I have seen is quite the opposite. The vaccine becomes less effective after only a few months.
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:40 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.
Last edited by Polot on Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:52 pm

Polot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.
 
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Polot
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:57 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Polot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.

The Pfizer vaccine widely available is approved for use (ages 16+. Emergency authorization for 12-15). “Comirnaty” is the new marketing brand name (just like “Tylenol”) for it but it’s the same vaccine.
 
Sooner787
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:14 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
They probably have other jobs lined up. The labor market is on fire right now.


I work for a large national OTR trucking firm & they've stopped short of mandating jabs for the workforce.

Reason is simple; there is such a shortage of drivers right now, they're afraid of losing drivers to competitors.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:16 pm

To any unvaccinated United employees reading this: I have just had my 3rd, booster shot (yes, I am in that age category). After effects to all three doses were mild and uneventful. I haven't "grown a tail", or suffered through a "breakthrough" infection. In short, I am feeling fine and very active for my age.

So in short, go get your vaccine - It is no big deal. You have a great job with a legendary company, please do what you can to keep it.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:19 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Polot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.


Great. Let him sue. Emergency authority to have the vaccine is good enough. Meanwhile, on topic, UA is setting an example for the rest of the industry. If you work around other people, you need to get vaccinated. Protecting yourself from getting sick protects others, and in this case, that means customers. Nobody should have the right to come into work unfit for duty and put customers and coworkers at greater risk of getting sick. That would be nothing but repugnant and selfish behavior.
 
Trk1
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:19 pm

Good job United! Safety is number 1 priority.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:20 pm

Polot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Polot wrote:
There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.

The Pfizer vaccine widely available is approved for use (ages 16+. Emergency authorization for 12-15). “Comirnaty” is the new marketing brand name (just like “Tylenol”) for it but it’s the same vaccine.

To be more pedantic,the BNT162b2 vaccine has full approval.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... NTech.html


Once vaccines are approved by the FDA, companies can market the vaccines under brand names. COMIRNATY is the brand name for the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. Now that the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine has been approved by the FDA for individuals 16 years of age and older, it will be marketed as COMIRNATY. The use of the name Pfizer-BioNTech will still be used for individuals 12-15 years old since this age group has not been approved. There has been no change in the formulation of the vaccine since the name change.


I'm sure there will be lawsuits. All I know about have been dismissed:
https://www.denverpost.com/2021/09/29/d ... issed/amp/
https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/US/202 ... 632789346/


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-co ... NewsSearch

A federal judge on Friday ruled that a Cincinnati, Ohio-area healthcare provider could require its employees get vaccinated against COVID-19 or risk losing their job, in what appears to be the first ruling of its kind for a private employer in the United States.


The legal requirements are to accommodate medical and religious exemptions.

A vaccine could be marketed as Duffvac for all the FDA cares as long as no illegal marketing occurs. BNT162b2 was approved and that little text must be on the bottle somewhere. The fact some other label will be larger? :yawn:

There will be many more mandates. In particular once the Federal mandate moves forward.

Lightsaber

Late edit: One of my friends working with a California county noted they are going through exemptions. Does the person attend religious events. Does the person avoid all medicines known to be from fetal cells? Did a doctor sign a medical exemption? Why?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:44 pm

JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

Still, those (about 2000) are on unpaid leave (https://www.npr.org/2021/09/09/10354759 ... rary-leave).
 
N1120A
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:53 pm

Good. It is great to see the airline industry has led the way on this issue.

Varsity1 wrote:
They probably have other jobs lined up. The labor market is on fire right now.


Not for the kind of quality jobs in this sector.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:06 pm

I work with some of these individuals. Stuck their chest out saying they weren’t going to get the shot, yet here they are today “yeah, I went and got it anyway”. So much drama. Why would you even call the company’s bluff on something that risks such a great job with excellent benefits.
 
tommy1808
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:20 pm

Polot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Polot wrote:
There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.

The Pfizer vaccine widely available is approved for use (ages 16+. Emergency authorization for 12-15). “Comirnaty” is the new marketing brand name (just like “Tylenol”) for it but it’s the same vaccine.


Its not even the new name, that is the marketing name. It just wasn't used in the US yet.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:41 pm

Just to be clear, the FDA, EMA, NHA, and other health authorities know it as BNT162b2 vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... NTech.html

Please don't get hung up on a marketing name. Legally that is a Biontech vaccine anyway.

jetmatt777 wrote:
I work with some of these individuals. Stuck their chest out saying they weren’t going to get the shot, yet here they are today “yeah, I went and got it anyway”. So much drama. Why would you even call the company’s bluff on something that risks such a great job with excellent benefits.

I'm not surprised as many alternatives are not as good employment wise. In a seniority based system, I couldn't imagine walking away unless one was near the bottom of the list.

Lightsaber
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4812
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Just to be clear, the FDA, EMA, NHA, and other health authorities know it as BNT162b2 vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... NTech.html

Please don't get hung up on a marketing name. Legally that is a Biontech vaccine anyway.

jetmatt777 wrote:
I work with some of these individuals. Stuck their chest out saying they weren’t going to get the shot, yet here they are today “yeah, I went and got it anyway”. So much drama. Why would you even call the company’s bluff on something that risks such a great job with excellent benefits.

I'm not surprised as many alternatives are not as good employment wise. In a seniority based system, I couldn't imagine walking away unless one was near the bottom of the list.

Lightsaber


I know a 25-year guy who is pushing this as far as he can. He didn’t file for an exemption and didn’t get a shot.

I think they’ll probably give him the opportunity to change his mind before driving him to the parking lot. Not worth the risk. Total stupidity.
 
Cardude2
Posts: 359
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:13 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Polot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.


He will probably continue licking his lips because that would risk his license to practice. I'm no lawyer but that's teeteringly close to a frivolous lawsuit.
 
Boof02671
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:13 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:37 pm

Discuss the topic, not other users. This is your warning.
 
EBiafore99
Posts: 153
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:04 pm

Frankly, I have a hard time garnering sympathy for the soon to be terminated employees:
1. UA has been pretty clear on it's policy
2. Too many people want the right to choose whether or not to take the vaccine, but not be subject to any consequences for the choice. Well, that's now how life works. Everything decision has consequences. You don't want the vaccine, fine, it's your choice...but this is the consequence. You have no right to a job. In the US, the general employment standard is "at will employment". Unless it's illegal, you can be fired for any reason (we'll see how the religious exemption plays out). The union contract ay provide some protections, but it appears the UA unions are on board with this.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2826
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:16 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
Frankly, I have a hard time garnering sympathy for the soon to be terminated employees:
1. UA has been pretty clear on it's policy
2. Too many people want the right to choose whether or not to take the vaccine, but not be subject to any consequences for the choice. Well, that's now how life works. Everything decision has consequences. You don't want the vaccine, fine, it's your choice...but this is the consequence. You have no right to a job. In the US, the general employment standard is "at will employment". Unless it's illegal, you can be fired for any reason (we'll see how the religious exemption plays out). The union contract ay provide some protections, but it appears the UA unions are on board with this.

Not all unions are on board with this.

The position of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers union is that vaccine mandates are unnecessarily controversial and should not be used until a good faith effort to employ incentives has been tried first. Throughout this process, United Airlines has failed to provide clear communications and a consistent policy towards vaccinations.
“The IAM will pursue any grievance where our members were wrongfully denied an exemption and then terminated,” IAMAW District President Mike Klemm said in a September 3 statement. “Let me be abundantly clear. Your IAM attorneys have advised us that the company is within its legal rights to mandate the vaccine as a condition of employment so any grievance would be an uphill battle. Morally it’s deplorable, but welcome to Kirby Airlines.”
IAMAW International President Robert Martinez has also demanded that any vaccine mandates be part of the bargaining process. “The IAM will work to enforce the legal obligation of employers to bargain with unions over effects that implementation will have on union-represented employees,” said Martinez. “Rest assured, the IAM will, as always, continue to vigorously protect our members’ rights.”

https://iam141.org/united-delays-action ... xemptions/
 
kalvado
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..

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