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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:12 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Just to be clear, the FDA, EMA, NHA, and other health authorities know it as BNT162b2 vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... NTech.html

Please don't get hung up on a marketing name. Legally that is a Biontech vaccine anyway.

jetmatt777 wrote:
I work with some of these individuals. Stuck their chest out saying they weren’t going to get the shot, yet here they are today “yeah, I went and got it anyway”. So much drama. Why would you even call the company’s bluff on something that risks such a great job with excellent benefits.

I'm not surprised as many alternatives are not as good employment wise. In a seniority based system, I couldn't imagine walking away unless one was near the bottom of the list.

Lightsaber


I know a 25-year guy who is pushing this as far as he can. He didn’t file for an exemption and didn’t get a shot.

I think they’ll probably give him the opportunity to change his mind before driving him to the parking lot. Not worth the risk. Total stupidity.


My interpretation of previous links is that UA will try to help people comply. The don't want to send people out the door.

However I and my extended family are curtailing flying due to coronavirus damage to myself (I have exploratory surgery Monday to access the damage beyond what ultrasound could find) and one cousin (possibly another) have damage too (I have tons of cousins, fwiw). Steps like this will allow us to return to normal.

Cardude2 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Polot wrote:
There is a federal mandate (executive order) requiring federal employees to be vaccinated (by some point towards end of November). So far it is not been successfully challenged.

Now that there is a FDA approved vaccine UA employees would probably find it difficult to win their case- UA provided exemptions for health and religion.

There is no “approved” available yet, Comirnaty won’t be available for at least another year. The current one may be used under emergency authorization, in it’s place.

Got a lawyer buddy licking his chops about all of this, already has potential clients lined up. When the firings actually begin, is when the lawsuits start flying. Many Companies already backing down, or informing customers that they will not be able to deliver product on schedule.


He will probably continue licking his lips because that would risk his license to practice. I'm no lawyer but that's teeteringly close to a frivolous lawsuit.


Federal contractors, which UA and their employees are, must be vaccinated by December 8th.

https://www.shrm.org/ResourcesAndTools/ ... t=READ-MOR

I do not know the legalities (I am not a lawyer). There is a legal risk of UA having unvaccinated longer than the deadline. If someone sues, I'm sure it can be tied up past December 8th

I posted links earlier. So far courts have thrown out every case. Best case the lawyer looses weeks of time. Worst case reprimanded and as you note, risk the license to practice.

UA has no choice as a federal contractor. I posted upthread links on the vaccine approval, I'm not repeating a 3rd time, age 16+ can be mandated now.

e.g., San Diego has mandated vaccines for schools for everyone (including students). Students will be mandated as full approval by age happens. San Diego is educated conservative California too:
https://timesofsandiego.com/uncategoriz ... -students/

There is no legal reason not to allow mandates (by age, 16+ today).

Lightsaber
 
nine4nine
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:17 pm

kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.

In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4812
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:30 pm

nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.


Masks are still a thing because of the people refusing to get vaccinated. The vaccines are incredibly effective at reducing symptoms to near zero, and worst case scenarios are usually a sniffle or too. Keeping the virus from spreading prevents it from mutating. Keeping symptoms in check also helps it from not spreading.

If everyone would get vaccinated we would be done with this, or at least have it beaten back to a point where we can just go back to normal.

People refusing vaccinations are causing the rest of us to have to continue wearing masks and dealing with this crap.
 
EdmFlyBoi
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
panamair wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58731340

I'm surprised the number of holdouts is that high. Have other major carriers implemented vaccine mandates ?


High? It's incredibly low...593 out of 67000+ employees? That's about 0.9%...
Good job all around by United and it's employees!

Well, considering they are already understaffed and how strong the job market is right now, this could come back to bite them either in the form of continuing to be understaffed or having to hire from the bottom of the barrel.
No one is buying tickets based on the vaccination status of the airline employees so I really don't understand United's position here.


I would absolutely not fly on a carrier who does not mandate that their employees be vaccinated. Return to normalcy requires that as many people get vaccinated as possible. Kudos to United and the other carriers who are standing by the mandate to be vaccinated.
 
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Aesma
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:34 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.


Maybe you didn't notice but basically all airlines in the world would be bankrupt if governments hadn't poured billions into them. The cause ? That virus.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:35 pm

kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies?


I don't - and the precedents are set, going back over a century to the Supreme Court.

People post as if the matter is undecided. It isn't.

Putting employees with a religious exemption on unpaid leave - now that may lead to an interesting case in court.
 
kalvado
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:51 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.


Masks are still a thing because of the people refusing to get vaccinated. The vaccines are incredibly effective at reducing symptoms to near zero, and worst case scenarios are usually a sniffle or too. Keeping the virus from spreading prevents it from mutating. Keeping symptoms in check also helps it from not spreading.

If everyone would get vaccinated we would be done with this, or at least have it beaten back to a point where we can just go back to normal.

People refusing vaccinations are causing the rest of us to have to continue wearing masks and dealing with this crap.

Lets talk science. Vaccines reduce the chance of getting to ICU by a factor of five or so.
Which is a great result, but far cry from the rosy picture you are painting.
 
kalvado
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies?


I don't - and the precedents are set, going back over a century to the Supreme Court.

People post as if the matter is undecided. It isn't.

Putting employees with a religious exemption on unpaid leave - now that may lead to an interesting case in court.

Precedent quoted above is regarding a state law. Which is very different from an employer mandate.
I would feel a bit better if such mandates originated from health authority. As much as I lost respect to CDC, they still have a lot of medical experience within the group. For some reason, that expertise is used to fiddle with the real estate market...
 
448205
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:59 pm

N1120A wrote:
Good. It is great to see the airline industry has led the way on this issue.

Varsity1 wrote:
They probably have other jobs lined up. The labor market is on fire right now.


Not for the kind of quality jobs in this sector.


Alot of airline employees don't want to work in this sector anymore. Compared to most fields the pay is pathetic for an adult career. The travel benefits aren't what they were. Working more hours, travel restrictions, rude customers.

It's like working for Amtrak without the stability.
 
mcg
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:04 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.



Maybe not as most reasonably trained lawyers understand that employers can require immunization.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:27 pm

Discuss the topic, not other users. No more warnings.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:29 pm

JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

It will be slightly more complicated than that. Some unvaccinated staff will need to change job within the company.

Imagine for instance a FA being unable to check in at an outstation hotel. An unvaccinated FA may have to take an office job instead. Maybe he/she is able to check in at U.S. hotels, I don't know, but UA flies to many countries, and there will certainly be countries that do not accept foreign unvaccinated hotel guests.

That's just an example. With medical or religious exemption you will not get fired from UA. But your career opportunities will in many cases be limited.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies?


I don't - and the precedents are set, going back over a century to the Supreme Court.

People post as if the matter is undecided. It isn't.

Putting employees with a religious exemption on unpaid leave - now that may lead to an interesting case in court.


In the US, the precedent is STATE governments can use their police power to set vaccination mandates. Employers are pretty much free to require anything if there’s a nexus to employment. Federal government requiring private businesses to require vaccinations is new legal terrain.
 
bfitzflyer
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:40 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
But all you needed to do was "apply for a religious exemption" suggests to me that these individuals are very much making a point, as there's going to still be lots of unvaccinated staff around.

There is no federal mandate. Nothing has been formally proposed, nor has anything gone through the rule making process. The moment UA officially terminates these people, the lawsuits begin.


Any company with federal contracts is going through something similar. I know at my company now having to prove vaccination status as we have big government contracts. Basically saying preparing for upcoming regulations. All of the major airlines fly US mail, they will likely be subject to regulations.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2646
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:02 am

nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.

Yes, as much as I want to believe in "desperate times call for desperate measures", the one phrase that leaps to mind in all this for me is "slippery slope". I got vaxed because I felt it the most prudent thing to do for myself and loved ones. But let's not let tyranny get its toe inside the door.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:40 am

I found an older link on UA's vaccine mandate that explains a lot:
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/10360398 ... eave-in-oc
But for customer-facing employees, those employees will be on unpaid leave until the risk of COVID is low enough that we deem it safe.

The article has a bunch more. For example, ready to upload passenger vaccine cards if the government "takes the lead" on a requirement for passengers.

Overall, one of the few CEO interviews worth reading.

Lightsaber
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16578
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:05 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.

Yes, as much as I want to believe in "desperate times call for desperate measures", the one phrase that leaps to mind in all this for me is "slippery slope". I got vaxed because I felt it the most prudent thing to do for myself and loved ones. But let's not let tyranny get its toe inside the door.


Except it's not a slippery slope. A highly contagious respiratory disease is a major concern for any public-facing operation. The mitigation currently available targets a specific disease. Mandating employees be protected is double protection for both the company's operation and their customers. No tyranny, no slippery slope. A solution to a major problem, is all.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:15 am

nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.

I agree 100%. I wish these awesome 600 UA employees the absolute best of luck. I know a person that works for a major airline if they are asked to get vaccinated they will try the religious exemption (witch this person is extremely religious) if that doesn’t work then they are done with that airline that they’ve been with for over two decades.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:29 am

nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.


1) The vaccines have all been approved. An emergency use approval is still an FDA approval and they still have to show that the vaccine (or any medicine) is safe and effective.
2) Yes, the Delta variant can be transmitted by vaccinated people and breakthrough infections can occur. However, if you've been vaccinated, the chances that it develops into a severe life-threatening illness is very low, like almost zero.
3) 1% mortality in a country of 350 million is 3.5 million people. You're cool with that many people dying from a preventative illness?
4) As others pointed out, masks are still required because our vaccination rates are so low and because it can still be transmitted by vaccinated people.

What is more problematic is the longer we allow the virus to spread , the more opportunities it has to mutate into something that the vaccines are ineffective against or that is more deadly. As to the 600 UA employees who don't want to get the vaccine, to quote Alec Baldwin's character in The Departed, "The world always needs more bartenders."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:30 am

tomaheath wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.

I agree 100%. I wish these awesome 600 UA employees the absolute best of luck. I know a person that works for a major airline if they are asked to get vaccinated they will try the religious exemption (witch this person is extremely religious) if that doesn’t work then they are done with that airline that they’ve been with for over two decades.


The vaccines are effective and the 1% mortality rate is a misnomer as hospitalization rates have been high and long-term damage from the disease highly variable among individuals from moderate to severely disabling. These are accepted facts in the medical profession - laymen are neither qualified or experienced to question them. United is not a medical company, and like most companies, their leadership accepts the vetted and professional advice from the medical profession on what constitutes proper mitigation.

Considering the above, the positions of these employees are irresponsible and lionizing them is extremely unwise as it prolongs pandemic conditions.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
2175301
Posts: 2245
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies?


I don't - and the precedents are set, going back over a century to the Supreme Court.

People post as if the matter is undecided. It isn't.

Putting employees with a religious exemption on unpaid leave - now that may lead to an interesting case in court.


In the US, the precedent is STATE governments can use their police power to set vaccination mandates. Employers are pretty much free to require anything if there’s a nexus to employment. Federal government requiring private businesses to require vaccinations is new legal terrain.


Actually the Federal Goverment has long mandated vaccines for certain professions (health care, etc). It is not new legal ground at all. It's just adding another vaccine to the list; and expanding the category of employees that are required to get it.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:48 am

I am glad United is a fully vaccinated airline!! A lot of people who will choose United because of this. This is a smart policy!
 
kalvado
Posts: 3410
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:55 am

2175301 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't - and the precedents are set, going back over a century to the Supreme Court.

People post as if the matter is undecided. It isn't.

Putting employees with a religious exemption on unpaid leave - now that may lead to an interesting case in court.


In the US, the precedent is STATE governments can use their police power to set vaccination mandates. Employers are pretty much free to require anything if there’s a nexus to employment. Federal government requiring private businesses to require vaccinations is new legal terrain.


Actually the Federal Goverment has long mandated vaccines for certain professions (health care, etc). It is not new legal ground at all. It's just adding another vaccine to the list; and expanding the category of employees that are required to get it.

I wouldn't mind federal government issuing a mandate. But UA is not the government.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16578
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:56 am

kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

In the US, the precedent is STATE governments can use their police power to set vaccination mandates. Employers are pretty much free to require anything if there’s a nexus to employment. Federal government requiring private businesses to require vaccinations is new legal terrain.


Actually the Federal Goverment has long mandated vaccines for certain professions (health care, etc). It is not new legal ground at all. It's just adding another vaccine to the list; and expanding the category of employees that are required to get it.

I wouldn't mind federal government issuing a mandate. But UA is not the government.


Companies govern their internal policies and processes - nothing new. Private organizations are empowered to do so.
 
UA748i
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:58 am

UA will be UA. I fundamentally disagree with every aspect of their corporate culture and this merely reinforces that personal view.

I applaud the employees that remained resolute, and didnt succumb to dogma. Its sad that they will probably lose their jobs over draconian mandates, but they are in a good position for lawsuits in the future when the reality of these vaccines begins to come to light.

If you have to resort to blackmailing people to do something, then who's in the right?
 
kpitrrat
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:07 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:02 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
I am glad United is a fully vaccinated airline!! A lot of people who will choose United because of this. This is a smart policy!


Cost of ticket, date of travel, time, and at least 100 other things will probably still be more important than vaccinated employees when your average traveler is purchasing a ticket.
 
Chemist
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:32 am

UA748i wrote:
UA will be UA. I fundamentally disagree with every aspect of their corporate culture and this merely reinforces that personal view.

I applaud the employees that remained resolute, and didnt succumb to dogma. Its sad that they will probably lose their jobs over draconian mandates, but they are in a good position for lawsuits in the future when the reality of these vaccines begins to come to light.

If you have to resort to blackmailing people to do something, then who's in the right?


United requires uniforms to be worn, and grooming standards. How could the employees be succumbing to such dogma for all of these years? Sounds like a good position for lawsuits in the future when the reality of these uniforms become apparent. /sarcasm
 
nclarks
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:55 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:47 am

Polot wrote:
nclarks wrote:
Lootess wrote:


The federal mandate that was proposed said you could test instead, from my understanding, United employees didn't have the option to be tested. It was get it or be terminated.

A federal mandate is not required for a private company to require vaccinations. The whole discussion is a red herring.

The propose one (don’t know if it was implemented or not) was the federal government trying to push private companies to require vaccination. But a private company does not have to wait until a federal mandate to demand that from their employees. They purposely waited until there was a fully FDA approved vaccine to implement it to strengthen legality of it.


I understand what a private entity may do in regards to vaccines. My point was under the federal mandate employees could test.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15375
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:58 am

2175301 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't - and the precedents are set, going back over a century to the Supreme Court.

People post as if the matter is undecided. It isn't.

Putting employees with a religious exemption on unpaid leave - now that may lead to an interesting case in court.


In the US, the precedent is STATE governments can use their police power to set vaccination mandates. Employers are pretty much free to require anything if there’s a nexus to employment. Federal government requiring private businesses to require vaccinations is new legal terrain.


Actually the Federal Goverment has long mandated vaccines for certain professions (health care, etc). It is not new legal ground at all. It's just adding another vaccine to the list; and expanding the category of employees that are required to get it.


I don't know about other vaccine mandates for healthcare workers, but the government can certainly prescribe occupational health standards and (within reason) rules for companies that want to do business with it. I have clients with a menagerie of different rules or requests for their contractors, many of which don't pertain directly to the services we provide. In this context, the government is simply another market participant.
 
PacificWest
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:02 am

I'm okay with a vaccine mandate, but they need to exempt employees that already had covid and recovered.

The science on natural immunity is out. It's unreal that we're ignoring it because they think people will intentionally get covid instead of the vaccine,

Just because the feds are wilfully ignoring it doesn't mean United has to. This is more PR and virtue signaling than anything else.
 
HunterATL
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:34 am

Suits against an employer for disease or injury related to employment are barred by workers' compensation statutes in every jurisdiction in the United States. Any United employee who claims injury from getting the vaccine as a condition to employment is limited to recovery under the applicable workers' compensation scheme, and it might not even constitute a covered claim in the employee's state.
 
mcg
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:54 am

nine4nine wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
In every case so far in regards to employees suing their employer over the mandate the Judge has ruled in favor of the company.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1905 the mandatory vaccines are legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

And the EEOC has also ruled and made guidelines

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ee ... incentives

Does anyone has a problem with the fact, that the government is not taking responsibility, leaving this to private companies? And what would be the next mandate companies would be willing to throw on employers?
In general, government vaccine mandates so far (I am thinking about general immunizations) are just that - government applying the best judgement of medical professionals. UA is not a medical company, nor known for wast medical expertise; and government for whatever reason is not taking responsibility.
Once vaccine mandate is allowed to stand, what would be the next mandatory medical advice employee is allowed to give? Mandatory appendectomy to reduce chances of crew getting sick overseas? That was studied and turned down as a possibility for Apollo missions. Enema for pilots to reduce the need of bathroom trips? (actually done for Soyuz flights)
When precedents have legal power, one has to consider possible future impact of such mandates..



Well said. Where does it stop after this? Not to mention the vaccine isn’t fully effective, fully proven, only to date one has been barely approved by the FDA and all for a virus with a 1% mortality rate. My heart hurts for these people who lost they’re job/career at UA over something unproven they don’t want to introduce into their body. If the vaccine is such a game changer why are masks still required? To protect the vaccinated from the virus they are vaccinated against? And yes I’m vaxxed not an anti.

And yes this will open Pandora’s box for companies down the line to institute mandatory procedures for its employees as they deem necessary. We’ve gone down a dark road where you must fall in line and do what you’re told by business and govt and I don’t think there’s any turning back at this point. Welcome to totalitarianism people.

I hope eventually these 600 UA employees can win a nice settlement. A mandate is NOT a law.


They won't win any settlement.
 
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qf789
Moderator
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: United Airlines to fire 600 staff who refuse vaccine

Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:23 am

Despite several warnings in the thread the off topic comments continue therefore this thread is now locked

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