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lightsaber
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:37 am

global1 wrote:
We are still waiting.

It's not a question of ‘if’ Delta will comply, but how they go about it. The options are limited and if you are required to be fully vaccinated, a 2 dose regimen means there is a short window left. My gut tells me DL will make every effort to have vaccinations available at the workplace, perhaps secure some J&J once the 2 dose threshold closes, etc..
That said, I think they may try to offer some sort of graceful ‘out’ for those non-compliant.


The math.
Fully vaccinated by December 8th
Final dose by November 24th (all)
First Pfizer by November 3rd
Moderna 1st by October 27th

All the government contractors must get out their rules by next week. I personally expect a run on J&J in November as many are upping medical insurance premiums if spouses aren't vaccinated.

This gets sporty. Soon.

Another poster noted many of the regionals haven't yet posted. I know our major sub vendors are hit as government contactors I cannot see how all regional, major, and LCC airlines aren't hit. Although, Breeze might be new enough to not, yet, be hit.

Lightsaber
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:22 am

ethernal wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Ventilation sufficient to make big differences greatly increases the cost to operate the HVAC system. Most modern systems monitor CO2 levels in the return air and adjust the flow accordingly. Otherwise the system needs to be set for the standard occupancy, ie, every seat occupied. A church with 500 seats takes over 5,000 CFM of outside air, that in the winter needs to be heated by 40F during the winter, and cooled by 20F in the summer. With the CO2 monitoring the room adjusts to the days 100 occupants, not 500 - a huge saving.

But this is still quite insufficient, surgical suites need 5 air changes per hour of outside air, not the 1 air change for an office. Further the in room ventilation needs to be 20 air changes per hour to get the air velocity higher, and the flow needs to be a uniform downward. Virus particles are basically weightless and the high flows are needed to knock them to the floor. Filtering needs to be MERV11, not all the way to HEPA but still a lot of fan head to push thru the filters.

I believe airplanes are 2 pass, 50% of the air is fresh, 50% returned with all filtered at the MERV11 to HEPA levels, which is a good ventilation consideration.

The industry has spent 20 years reducing ventilation to reduce the enormous cost, now it is going back up.


Outside air exchange will always be augmented by recirculated filtration. That said, even for outdoor air exchange, the cost of operation isn't as dramatic as you make it sound for outside air exchange: modern heat exchangers are very good at getting heat losses down to only a couple of degrees with the other cost being a bit higher pressure loss running through the exchanger. It's not heating up air by 40 degrees, it's heating up air by 2-3 degrees. In aggregate, you're talking about a few percentage points energy going to pressure for the heat exchanger and a few percentage points of loss from imperfect heat exchange per extra air replacement cycle.

With modern heat exchangers and low-loss duct work, you can increase cycles by 5X with much of that being outside air with only a 15-20% increase in energy use. While that isn't a trivial increase, it isn't like you're increasing air conditioning costs by 3-5 times. But unfortunately high quality heat exchangers, high quality ducting, and properly sized fans cost money (and it's an up front cost). So without regulatory pressure (just like with energy efficiency standards), you won't see movement in this space outside of potentially Class A office space which already typically has above code filtration/ventilation (albeit still not enough).

MERV 13 is really the (non-HEPA) gold standard if you want to get virus particles, although MERV 11 is better than the garbage MERV 8 that is the most common filtration that is used. MERV-8 probably does little to stop aerosols. I switched from MERV 8 in my house to MERV 13 a few years back and the difference in air quality is noticeable. UV lights are interesting (and can be useful for odor control as well), but I trust filtration more because not having a filter damages equipment, and an old filter reduces system efficacy (costing $$) - so it's self-sorting problem: filters get replaced. I bet UV-C filtration has a tendency to end up not getting replaced somewhat frequently.

All that said, improved ventilation and filtration are long term partial solutions to a short term problem (COVID, although better ventilation will help reduce disease burden for all kinds of respiratory infections). Airports still have crap air filtration, and I bet airline's offices aren't exactly doing full air cycles every 3 minutes like planes. Hence why vaccines are being mandated at airlines, and why people need to get vaccinated. Even with waning efficacy, vaccination is the quickest way for airlines to return to some degree of normalcy in operations and quite frankly I'm surprised it took as long as it did for many of them to go heads first into a solid mandate.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised Delta is still quiet on this. Is anyone hearing rumblings on when the announcement is going to come out? I assume it is inevitable.


The project I am involved with either have to meet the Washington State Energy Code or the suite of codes required for US Dept of Defense projects, the WSEC is actually tougher. The efficiency of the Energy Recovery Units on a recent 18,000 SF training facility utilized a Dedicated Outside Air System DOAS rated for 3,000 CFM utilizing parallel plate exchangers (wheel style are discouraged due to leakage exhaust to supply) that are 61% efficient. Refer to the HE-4X in the attached brochure. So intake air is raised by 0.61 x (T room - T outside), so if 30F and 70F the post ERV air temp is 54F requiring heating by 16F not 2-3.
https://www.renewaire.com/wp-content/up ... re_Web.pdf

This equipment is about as efficient as regulated anywhere. Outside of office and assembly space in Washington State, every rooftop package unit up through 30 Tons use economizers to get free cooling, but make up air is power exhausted and with separate direct air intake without any heat recovery, so the full 40F temp rise of the outside air. Typically, a commercial building typically draws 15% outside air with 85% recirculated. Larger buildings usually will go with a variable air volume system. The main units bring in the outside air along with recirculated that is heated or cooled, delivered under medium pressure (2"-4" water column) to the VAV boxes, either just a controlling damper or a fan powered box. The fan powered box blends in like 2/3 recirculated air and 1/3 air from the main air handler. In this case the main unit is drawing more like 35% outside air. The outside air standards look at the outside air per square foot, recent energy conservation methods use CO2 in the return air to adjust the % of outside air, sometimes saving 70% of the required air as the building is not fully occupied every moment.

Typical offices and residences only have from 0.5 to 1.5 air changes per hour, the trainer noted drew in 3,000 CFM into a facility with 216 kSF, so an average 72 minutes for an air change, 0.83 ACH. Even the surgical suite has 20 ACH, or 3 minutes, but only 4 ACH with outside air (5:1 recirculated) or every 15 minutes. That one 7,700 surgical suite VAV 30 ton air handler moves 12,600 CFM total with outside air being 4,200 CFM 350 Mbtuh of gas heat required. The energy codes did not require heat recovery here and the Heath Dept discouraged heat recovery for cleanliness issues.
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:23 am

global1 wrote:
We are still waiting.

It's not a question of ‘if’ Delta will comply, but how they go about it. The options are limited and if you are required to be fully vaccinated, a 2 dose regimen means there is a short window left. My gut tells me DL will make every effort to have vaccinations available at the workplace, perhaps secure some J&J once the 2 dose threshold closes, etc..
That said, I think they may try to offer some sort of graceful ‘out’ for those non-compliant.


My hunch is they won’t do a thing til the EO is official and OSHA issues a statement or outlines. The EO was simply a threat. It was never actually implemented so my guess is delta does nothing til then. The deadline will not be 12-8, I’d bet my life it’s extended to 1/7
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2680
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:53 am

A company like Delta looking at this EO will evaluate the situation in house. If DL sees having only vaccinated employees is better for them, the EO pretty much provides enough cover for them to proceed. If DL sees having current situation continue is better for them, they will likely slow walk the compliance.

I'm jabbed with J&J last spring, but unsure about it being mandatory, there are a lot of good reasons not to take it. I feel if the jab worked, there should be little reason to mask, but we are masking while vaxxed. From a company standpoint, the desire to not have employees out sick really pushes the decision for good reasons.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:25 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
global1 wrote:
We are still waiting.

It's not a question of ‘if’ Delta will comply, but how they go about it. The options are limited and if you are required to be fully vaccinated, a 2 dose regimen means there is a short window left. My gut tells me DL will make every effort to have vaccinations available at the workplace, perhaps secure some J&J once the 2 dose threshold closes, etc..
That said, I think they may try to offer some sort of graceful ‘out’ for those non-compliant.


My hunch is they won’t do a thing til the EO is official and OSHA issues a statement or outlines. The EO was simply a threat. It was never actually implemented so my guess is delta does nothing til then. The deadline will not be 12-8, I’d bet my life it’s extended to 1/7

The airlines are being forced because they are classified as gov contractors which fall under the first mandate
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:38 am

I see these debates and cannot help but think most have employers less strict on vaccines than mine. The airlines seem to be going down to the wire, except for UA. My employer has set a harsh deadline of first dose in this month (October). No exceptions for J&J either. Moderna must be by the 27th too.

However, on site vaccination, I think #5 (if #6, yawn), is this Thursday. Are airlines doing on site clinics?

The question is, where are the airlines towards reaching that goal? We've discussed a few that haven't yet started the clock. Airlines must start by next week. In particular, the pilot no fly for 48 hours post vaccination will be... interesting.
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/

With the needed pilot scheduling, I'm amazed at the delays.

ethernal wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
airbazar wrote:
[


That article was from April when we barely had vaccines or studies on them. Case in point:

Ok, please post a link. My doctors give very different advice than you are claiming. I have seen any reputable medical agency recommending what you suggest.

CDC recommends getting vaccinated unless

If you were treated for COVID-19 with monoclonal antibodies or convalescent plasma, you should wait 90 days before getting a COVID-19 vaccine.


oh and a few rare disorders

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... s/faq.html

The courtesy is when you dismiss a link as out of date, you provide a better link. As that is still the medical recommendation I hear doctors I know are giving, please provide a better reference, from a medical authority. I searched...

So no reason for those not having had those rare treatments not to be vaccinated earlier. The rest have to either get a valid medical or religious exemption. That link is October 4th.

Lightsaber


In fairness, monoclonal antibody use shot up significantly by the end of September so it's hardly rare anymore. About half a million doses were used in September which represents about 10% of all recorded COVID cases receiving this treatment that month (up from only 2-3% in the summer). For some reason, at least a portion of the same folks that eschewed a safe and effective $30-40 vaccine don't mind receiving a more experimental and less effective $1250 treatment when they get sick.

Regardless, at best, this is a short term medical exemption that the airline will asterisk with a "come back to us in [X months] with your vaccine card." It doesn't give you a permanent out to not get vaccinated.

We are overall in agreement. This is at most a delay, not an exit. I don't understand avoiding a low risk, low cost vaccine for a very unknown and expensive treatment myself.

Lightsaber
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:44 am

lightsaber wrote:
I see these debates and cannot help but think most have employers less strict on vaccines than mine. The airlines seem to be going down to the wire, except for UA. My employer has set a harsh deadline of first dose in this month (October). No exceptions for J&J either. Moderna must be by the 27th too.

However, on site vaccination, I think #5 (if #6, yawn), is this Thursday. Are airlines doing on site clinics?

The question is, where are the airlines towards reaching that goal? We've discussed a few that haven't yet started the clock. Airlines must start by next week. In particular, the pilot no fly for 48 hours post vaccination will be... interesting.
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/

With the needed pilot scheduling, I'm amazed at the delays.

ethernal wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
That article was from April when we barely had vaccines or studies on them. Case in point:

Ok, please post a link. My doctors give very different advice than you are claiming. I have seen any reputable medical agency recommending what you suggest.

CDC recommends getting vaccinated unless

If you were treated for COVID-19 with monoclonal antibodies or convalescent plasma, you should wait 90 days before getting a COVID-19 vaccine.


oh and a few rare disorders

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... s/faq.html

The courtesy is when you dismiss a link as out of date, you provide a better link. As that is still the medical recommendation I hear doctors I know are giving, please provide a better reference, from a medical authority. I searched...

So no reason for those not having had those rare treatments not to be vaccinated earlier. The rest have to either get a valid medical or religious exemption. That link is October 4th.

Lightsaber


In fairness, monoclonal antibody use shot up significantly by the end of September so it's hardly rare anymore. About half a million doses were used in September which represents about 10% of all recorded COVID cases receiving this treatment that month (up from only 2-3% in the summer). For some reason, at least a portion of the same folks that eschewed a safe and effective $30-40 vaccine don't mind receiving a more experimental and less effective $1250 treatment when they get sick.

Regardless, at best, this is a short term medical exemption that the airline will asterisk with a "come back to us in [X months] with your vaccine card." It doesn't give you a permanent out to not get vaccinated.

We are overall in agreement. This is at most a delay, not an exit. I don't understand avoiding a low risk, low cost vaccine for a very unknown and expensive treatment myself.

Lightsaber

Us under the fed mandates have to get shot one basically now. There is no help or on site clinics. You're totally on your own to get it. Have to get the second shot by nov 8. However as long as you are making progress you won’t get fired…at worst suspended until you are fully vaxxed after the 8th
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:20 am

Let's please try to keep the thread focused on discussing the aviation impacts of this topic. Discussing antibodies or the efficacy of vaccination is best left for the applicable topics in Non Av. This thread should be for discussion on the vaccination of airline employees, as the title states.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:23 am

atcsundevil wrote:
Let's please try to keep the thread focused on discussing the aviation impacts of this topic. Discussing antibodies or the efficacy of vaccination is best left for the applicable topics in Non Av. This thread should be for discussion on the vaccination of airline employees, as the title states.

✈️ atcsundevil


It seems it is difficult for people to do that without also relating their personal views on vaccine efficacy and how that informs their ability/inability to support airline policies for employees. For those of us arguing from employer perspective it is also difficult to discuss the rationale for policy without also mentioning effectiveness. This is less a forum issue and more an issue of how much misinformation people have been fed from their alternative information sources.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:31 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It seems it is difficult for people to do that without also relating their personal views on vaccine efficacy and how that informs their ability/inability to support airline policies for employees. For those of us arguing from employer perspective it is also difficult to discuss the rationale for policy without also mentioning effectiveness. This is less a forum issue and more an issue of how much misinformation people have been fed from their alternative information sources.

I completely understand. That's why we're making every effort to keep the thread open and at least relatively focused on the topic. It's important to correct misinformation when it arises, but we have to balance that with preserving the aviation focus of this forum. Sometimes these discussions are better had in Non Av so we don't feel the need to be as hands on, but I also feel that would do a disservice to people wanting to engage in a more aviation focused topic. We're just asking people to make their best effort given the circumstances.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I see these debates and cannot help but think most have employers less strict on vaccines than mine. The airlines seem to be going down to the wire, except for UA. My employer has set a harsh deadline of first dose in this month (October). No exceptions for J&J either. Moderna must be by the 27th too.

However, on site vaccination, I think #5 (if #6, yawn), is this Thursday. Are airlines doing on site clinics?

The question is, where are the airlines towards reaching that goal? We've discussed a few that haven't yet started the clock. Airlines must start by next week. In particular, the pilot no fly for 48 hours post vaccination will be... interesting.
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/

With the needed pilot scheduling, I'm amazed at the delays.


I think it’s at least partially a function of the size and complexity of airlines. My employer is now about a month into our mandate, but we have 200ish employees at three sites who mostly work 9-5 Monday to Friday (and, unfortunately, I live in a relatively less vaccinated part of the world so we’ve had good vaccine availability for months). That’s a lot different from airlines that have tens of thousands of employees who collectively work nonstop in a hundred cities.

And the need to give folks (not just pilots) time off post-vaccine just makes it harder. Side effects that are minor in the grand scheme but significant enough that safety-sensitive work probably isn’t a good idea happen with reasonably high frequency.
 
ethernal
Posts: 504
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:26 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
ethernal wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Ventilation sufficient to make big differences greatly increases the cost to operate the HVAC system. Most modern systems monitor CO2 levels in the return air and adjust the flow accordingly. Otherwise the system needs to be set for the standard occupancy, ie, every seat occupied. A church with 500 seats takes over 5,000 CFM of outside air, that in the winter needs to be heated by 40F during the winter, and cooled by 20F in the summer. With the CO2 monitoring the room adjusts to the days 100 occupants, not 500 - a huge saving.

But this is still quite insufficient, surgical suites need 5 air changes per hour of outside air, not the 1 air change for an office. Further the in room ventilation needs to be 20 air changes per hour to get the air velocity higher, and the flow needs to be a uniform downward. Virus particles are basically weightless and the high flows are needed to knock them to the floor. Filtering needs to be MERV11, not all the way to HEPA but still a lot of fan head to push thru the filters.

I believe airplanes are 2 pass, 50% of the air is fresh, 50% returned with all filtered at the MERV11 to HEPA levels, which is a good ventilation consideration.

The industry has spent 20 years reducing ventilation to reduce the enormous cost, now it is going back up.


Outside air exchange will always be augmented by recirculated filtration. That said, even for outdoor air exchange, the cost of operation isn't as dramatic as you make it sound for outside air exchange: modern heat exchangers are very good at getting heat losses down to only a couple of degrees with the other cost being a bit higher pressure loss running through the exchanger. It's not heating up air by 40 degrees, it's heating up air by 2-3 degrees. In aggregate, you're talking about a few percentage points energy going to pressure for the heat exchanger and a few percentage points of loss from imperfect heat exchange per extra air replacement cycle.

With modern heat exchangers and low-loss duct work, you can increase cycles by 5X with much of that being outside air with only a 15-20% increase in energy use. While that isn't a trivial increase, it isn't like you're increasing air conditioning costs by 3-5 times. But unfortunately high quality heat exchangers, high quality ducting, and properly sized fans cost money (and it's an up front cost). So without regulatory pressure (just like with energy efficiency standards), you won't see movement in this space outside of potentially Class A office space which already typically has above code filtration/ventilation (albeit still not enough).

MERV 13 is really the (non-HEPA) gold standard if you want to get virus particles, although MERV 11 is better than the garbage MERV 8 that is the most common filtration that is used. MERV-8 probably does little to stop aerosols. I switched from MERV 8 in my house to MERV 13 a few years back and the difference in air quality is noticeable. UV lights are interesting (and can be useful for odor control as well), but I trust filtration more because not having a filter damages equipment, and an old filter reduces system efficacy (costing $$) - so it's self-sorting problem: filters get replaced. I bet UV-C filtration has a tendency to end up not getting replaced somewhat frequently.

All that said, improved ventilation and filtration are long term partial solutions to a short term problem (COVID, although better ventilation will help reduce disease burden for all kinds of respiratory infections). Airports still have crap air filtration, and I bet airline's offices aren't exactly doing full air cycles every 3 minutes like planes. Hence why vaccines are being mandated at airlines, and why people need to get vaccinated. Even with waning efficacy, vaccination is the quickest way for airlines to return to some degree of normalcy in operations and quite frankly I'm surprised it took as long as it did for many of them to go heads first into a solid mandate.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised Delta is still quiet on this. Is anyone hearing rumblings on when the announcement is going to come out? I assume it is inevitable.


The project I am involved with either have to meet the Washington State Energy Code or the suite of codes required for US Dept of Defense projects, the WSEC is actually tougher. The efficiency of the Energy Recovery Units on a recent 18,000 SF training facility utilized a Dedicated Outside Air System DOAS rated for 3,000 CFM utilizing parallel plate exchangers (wheel style are discouraged due to leakage exhaust to supply) that are 61% efficient. Refer to the HE-4X in the attached brochure. So intake air is raised by 0.61 x (T room - T outside), so if 30F and 70F the post ERV air temp is 54F requiring heating by 16F not 2-3.
https://www.renewaire.com/wp-content/up ... re_Web.pdf

This equipment is about as efficient as regulated anywhere. Outside of office and assembly space in Washington State, every rooftop package unit up through 30 Tons use economizers to get free cooling, but make up air is power exhausted and with separate direct air intake without any heat recovery, so the full 40F temp rise of the outside air. Typically, a commercial building typically draws 15% outside air with 85% recirculated. Larger buildings usually will go with a variable air volume system. The main units bring in the outside air along with recirculated that is heated or cooled, delivered under medium pressure (2"-4" water column) to the VAV boxes, either just a controlling damper or a fan powered box. The fan powered box blends in like 2/3 recirculated air and 1/3 air from the main air handler. In this case the main unit is drawing more like 35% outside air. The outside air standards look at the outside air per square foot, recent energy conservation methods use CO2 in the return air to adjust the % of outside air, sometimes saving 70% of the required air as the building is not fully occupied every moment.

Typical offices and residences only have from 0.5 to 1.5 air changes per hour, the trainer noted drew in 3,000 CFM into a facility with 216 kSF, so an average 72 minutes for an air change, 0.83 ACH. Even the surgical suite has 20 ACH, or 3 minutes, but only 4 ACH with outside air (5:1 recirculated) or every 15 minutes. That one 7,700 surgical suite VAV 30 ton air handler moves 12,600 CFM total with outside air being 4,200 CFM 350 Mbtuh of gas heat required. The energy codes did not require heat recovery here and the Heath Dept discouraged heat recovery for cleanliness issues.


This is way off topic, so I'll end posts on this topic here but I'm confused by the claim that heat exchangers are only ~60% efficient (I couldn't find that number in the spec sheet you listed). Is the issue of scale and/or economically viable units? Swiss Rotors manufacture heat exchangers with 84% nameplate efficiency, and you can up that with lower air speeds (meaning more units at a greater cost to achieve the same airflow of course so I am sure it reaches economic non-viability) to over 90%.. I am not an HVAC expert (and you obviously are :)) so there may be something I am missing here.

In addition, excluding hyper cold climates, I thought that typically most conditioning costs for insulated buildings were on the cooling side, not the heating side. At least when the building is occupied, between ambient electricity consumption of equipment and the 100-watt space heaters walking around inside (humans), only in extremely cold weather is outside air heating needed. If target temp is 70 degrees and outside temperature is 90 degrees (i.e. mid-summer weather in most of the country), that gets to the 2-3 degrees I was mentioning. 0 degrees to 70 degrees is a much bigger delta, but at least in crowded modern buildings, I always understood that heat exhaust was the bigger issue so shedding excess heat is required in all but the coldest weather.

Regardless of the specifics, I think we both agree in principle that additional ventilation (whether recirc or outdoor air introduction) is probably good, albeit comes at a cost (both capital and operating expense). But all that said, doubling ventilation doesn't double HVAC costs. And I do think that is good for all environments - whether it is an airport, an office, or wherever.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1876
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:03 pm

32andBelow wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
AS is also requiring the vaccine now: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... employees/

I bet the calculus was hard for Alaska. I don’t think the anchorage based crews are gonna take that very well


Anchorage based crews should be first in line to get the vaccines given that Alaska's medical system has now fallen apart because of the unvaccinated overwhelming the hospital systems. If AS wants to have healthy workers to carry out their duties, it will issue a you must be vaccinated mandate as well or there will be no employees to operate its flights.
 
SEA
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:18 pm

32andBelow wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see these debates and cannot help but think most have employers less strict on vaccines than mine. The airlines seem to be going down to the wire, except for UA. My employer has set a harsh deadline of first dose in this month (October). No exceptions for J&J either. Moderna must be by the 27th too.

However, on site vaccination, I think #5 (if #6, yawn), is this Thursday. Are airlines doing on site clinics?

The question is, where are the airlines towards reaching that goal? We've discussed a few that haven't yet started the clock. Airlines must start by next week. In particular, the pilot no fly for 48 hours post vaccination will be... interesting.
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/

With the needed pilot scheduling, I'm amazed at the delays.

ethernal wrote:

In fairness, monoclonal antibody use shot up significantly by the end of September so it's hardly rare anymore. About half a million doses were used in September which represents about 10% of all recorded COVID cases receiving this treatment that month (up from only 2-3% in the summer). For some reason, at least a portion of the same folks that eschewed a safe and effective $30-40 vaccine don't mind receiving a more experimental and less effective $1250 treatment when they get sick.

Regardless, at best, this is a short term medical exemption that the airline will asterisk with a "come back to us in [X months] with your vaccine card." It doesn't give you a permanent out to not get vaccinated.

We are overall in agreement. This is at most a delay, not an exit. I don't understand avoiding a low risk, low cost vaccine for a very unknown and expensive treatment myself.

Lightsaber

Us under the fed mandates have to get shot one basically now. There is no help or on site clinics. You're totally on your own to get it. Have to get the second shot by nov 8. However as long as you are making progress you won’t get fired…at worst suspended until you are fully vaxxed after the 8th


When the vaccines first started rolling out, my worksite (govt) had many vaccine clinics. They ended in April of this year and now that the mandate is in place, same thing, no plans to reopen. I got mine early this year, but the inconvenience factor I am sure makes it hard. Especially with so many industries short staffed, including airlines, so not realistically time to get the jab on the clock, and a lot of people working extra hours, so less personal time as well.
 
FlyingElvii
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Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:24 pm

It is going to get very interesting now in the Palace of Dallas, and Ft Worth. Abbott’s No Mandatory Jab Order affects them directly, especially American, with so much state money in the New HQ facility.
 
AMALH747430
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:36 pm

UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:45 pm

SEA wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see these debates and cannot help but think most have employers less strict on vaccines than mine. The airlines seem to be going down to the wire, except for UA. My employer has set a harsh deadline of first dose in this month (October). No exceptions for J&J either. Moderna must be by the 27th too.

However, on site vaccination, I think #5 (if #6, yawn), is this Thursday. Are airlines doing on site clinics?

The question is, where are the airlines towards reaching that goal? We've discussed a few that haven't yet started the clock. Airlines must start by next week. In particular, the pilot no fly for 48 hours post vaccination will be... interesting.
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/

With the needed pilot scheduling, I'm amazed at the delays.


We are overall in agreement. This is at most a delay, not an exit. I don't understand avoiding a low risk, low cost vaccine for a very unknown and expensive treatment myself.

Lightsaber

Us under the fed mandates have to get shot one basically now. There is no help or on site clinics. You're totally on your own to get it. Have to get the second shot by nov 8. However as long as you are making progress you won’t get fired…at worst suspended until you are fully vaxxed after the 8th


When the vaccines first started rolling out, my worksite (govt) had many vaccine clinics. They ended in April of this year and now that the mandate is in place, same thing, no plans to reopen. I got mine early this year, but the inconvenience factor I am sure makes it hard. Especially with so many industries short staffed, including airlines, so not realistically time to get the jab on the clock, and a lot of people working extra hours, so less personal time as well.

That “300” number is only those at United proper that chose to turn it down. It doesn’t include those that chose retirement, or just left, and it does not include any numbers from UGE, it is technically a “seperate” company.
 
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:53 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see these debates and cannot help but think most have employers less strict on vaccines than mine. The airlines seem to be going down to the wire, except for UA. My employer has set a harsh deadline of first dose in this month (October). No exceptions for J&J either. Moderna must be by the 27th too.

However, on site vaccination, I think #5 (if #6, yawn), is this Thursday. Are airlines doing on site clinics?

The question is, where are the airlines towards reaching that goal? We've discussed a few that haven't yet started the clock. Airlines must start by next week. In particular, the pilot no fly for 48 hours post vaccination will be... interesting.
https://www.faa.gov/coronavirus/guidanc ... ccine_faq/

With the needed pilot scheduling, I'm amazed at the delays.


I think it’s at least partially a function of the size and complexity of airlines. My employer is now about a month into our mandate, but we have 200ish employees at three sites who mostly work 9-5 Monday to Friday (and, unfortunately, I live in a relatively less vaccinated part of the world so we’ve had good vaccine availability for months). That’s a lot different from airlines that have tens of thousands of employees who collectively work nonstop in a hundred cities.

And the need to give folks (not just pilots) time off post-vaccine just makes it harder. Side effects that are minor in the grand scheme but significant enough that safety-sensitive work probably isn’t a good idea happen with reasonably high frequency.

Airlines have a very hard time pulling this off. Multiple bases for crew. I will note, my employer almost has 100k employees and also multiple sites. Our mandate came out last week. My site, not much contention, its like those that don't want to be vaccinated just accept it will happen. Another site has had protests that I've been told made TV news (I stopped watching TV). I'm sure the same is happening in airlines. e.g., AA at some bases probably has an easier time getting resigned take up versus another base.

The airlines need to give people rest (not just pilots, but there is a requirement for pilots I posted a link on earlier) will be an extreme hassle for companies trying to have the perfect process with procrastinating employees. But is isn't as if vaccines are new. Two weeks after I qualified to be vaccinated, I recall they opened up vaccines to all adults and today is the six month anniversary of my 2nd jab. When I took my child in for vaccination, 1st day of 12+ year olds, the site wasn't even a third occupied. So it isn't as if there weren't opportunities for everyone and I am in a high demand area (the sites stayed busy at least six weeks later than the low vaccine demand areas).

The deadlines for all government contractors are well known. October 28th (for my employer the 27th, I've been mixing up the Federal date and my employer's date, mea culpa) is the last day for 1st dose of Moderna (I really wouldn't push it until then). You must have vaccine in the blood for two weeks prior to December 8th. This will help make air travel a little bit safer and also tremendously reduce airline health care costs. November 3rd for 1st dose Pfizer (my employer is withing October) and 2nd doses by November 24th or J&J (my employer, J&J must be in October).

I expect, like with UA, they had "some 2,000" exemptions requested and 320 who just refused our of
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/30/uniteds ... fired.html

There is plenty of time. For those sitting on the sidelines, I would request they ask their doctor's advice. I've met people who weren't vaccinated by doctor's advice. But for every one of them, I've met 20 who thought they shouldn't and their doctor ordered them to get vaccinated that very day, if not right there and then in the doctor's office. It has been so easy to get vaccinated for so long, the excuses on the rush... Yea...

Lightsaber
 
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:58 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.

UA did very well. Just to nitpick, it is about 2300, with exemptions. Out of 67,000 employees, that is 3.4% unvaccinated with only 2000 to remain or 3%.

There is an issue with the TX mandate as the government can set requirements for government contracts. AA in particular will be hard hit if they loose the government contracts. I expect the courts will give the case priority. So far, they have sided with vaccine mandates, but technically I believe this is a state's right (I am not a lawyer).

We shall see. I have a preference for which airline I fly on and I shall book my tickets accordingly. I believe others shall too. The question is, which preference is higher yield?

Lightsaber
 
global1
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:04 pm

I believe Gov. Abbott’s move is purely political theatre and will be taken up by the courts on an expedited basis. It will most likely be a matter of days, not months.

I don't pretend to be a constitutional scholar but I find it hard to believe that there is much of a chance that a governor can effectively override a federal presidential mandate. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:04 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.


Brian Kemp will probably do the same if Delta comes out with this which is why people need to understand why they haven’t done anything is multifaceted. They had enough to think about then the Tex Gov issues that order which gets their brains starting to run about the Ga Gov doing the same
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:07 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.


Brian Kemp will probably do the same if Delta comes out with this which is why people need to understand why they haven’t done anything is multifaceted. They had enough to think about then the Tex Gov issues that order which gets their brains starting to run about the Ga Gov doing the same


The question will be whether the federal government wants to push the issue hard enough to force airlines into litigation. Someone will file suit against the Texas EO and will probably win for federal preemption reasons, but my guess is that AA does not want to be that someone (nor does DL want to be that someone against a potential Georgia EO).
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:33 pm

global1 wrote:
I believe Gov. Abbott’s move is purely political theatre and will be taken up by the courts on an expedited basis. It will most likely be a matter of days, not months.

I don't pretend to be a constitutional scholar but I find it hard to believe that there is much of a chance that a governor can effectively override a federal presidential mandate. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

Don’t be so quick to think that. The 1905 court decision the media keeps quoting was a STATE mandating, not the Feds, and that the state constitution gave that power.

This has become entirely political now, and is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:36 pm

This just keeps getting weirder….
Kelly was on CNBC just a bit ago, saying he is AGAINST the Federal mandate. Sounds like he is trying to play both sides of the issue.
He is certainly no Herb, that’s for sure.
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status ... -sa%2Fc%2F
 
ethernal
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:00 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
global1 wrote:
I believe Gov. Abbott’s move is purely political theatre and will be taken up by the courts on an expedited basis. It will most likely be a matter of days, not months.

I don't pretend to be a constitutional scholar but I find it hard to believe that there is much of a chance that a governor can effectively override a federal presidential mandate. I did, however, stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

Don’t be so quick to think that. The 1905 court decision the media keeps quoting was a STATE mandating, not the Feds, and that the state constitution gave that power.


This is true, and does add some legal ambiguity, but not a whole lot. The court already determined that there is no constitutionally protected right not to get vaccinated, and then it's just a question of whether the Feds have the authority to enforce a mandate in the manner proposed. And the answer is, yes, at least as the plan is proposed, they do have the authority. Here's why:

  • No court is going to decide in favor of an argument that the federal government cannot mandate its employees get vaccinated.
  • No court is going to decide in favor of an argument that the federal government cannot set guidelines for how it contracts with companies so long as those guidelines are not discriminatory against protected classes (vaccine mandates are not, especially if they consider medical and sincerely held religious beliefs), they do not favor some companies over another, andwi they are not arbitrary.


And as it relates to the (pending) proposed OSHA guidance on large employers:

  • For employers that operate their business in an interstate manner, there is no debate whatsoever. Any employer with 100+ employees does. Do they have a web presence? A Facebook page? Do they post job postings on the internet? Do they buy from suppliers across state lines? The Federal authority is clear here.
  • For employers that specifically try to craft their business to be intrastate (almost impossible in this day and age), it still doesn't matter: OSHA has already withstood legal challenges even for business that operate purely in intrastate grounds (indeed, the legislation itself articulated its basis of authority and this basis of authority has stood up to judicial challenge).

Anyone can sue for anything. But these cases will be given priority, and they will ultimately lose. Airlines are currently solving for the government contractor requirements, but they will ultimately have to solve for the pending OSHA guidance. There is no real legal argument that says the Feds cannot do this. You can argue that they shouldn't be able to do it because you don't like it, but that is different than saying they can't do it.

If the federal government came out and said "All Americans must be vaccinated" and not exercising its existing regulatory and contracting authority, I would agree that it would be an interesting debate or discussion. But as construed today, there is no question that the Federal government has the authority to execute these mandates as currently planned.

And yes, in this case, Federal law will trump State law. A state cannot void an OSHA regulation because they do not like it. States can spin up their own OSHA capability, but the plan must be at least as restrictive as the Federal OSHA requirements - not less.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:17 pm

OSHA does not have jurisdiction over airline crews, this was specifically forbidden a long time ago, in 1975. Only the FAA has the statutory authority to issue regulations concerning safety and health issues in the airline industry., and there is a regulatory process for that. It is not being followed.
https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standard ... 20industry.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:23 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
OSHA does not have jurisdiction over airline crews, this was specifically forbidden a long time ago, in 1975. Only the FAA has the statutory authority to issue regulations concerning safety and health issues in the airline industry., and there is a regulatory process for that. It is not being followed.
https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standard ... 20industry.

Yah but the government could just cancel all the contracts.
 
ethernal
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:48 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
OSHA does not have jurisdiction over airline crews, this was specifically forbidden a long time ago, in 1975. Only the FAA has the statutory authority to issue regulations concerning safety and health issues in the airline industry., and there is a regulatory process for that. It is not being followed.
https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standard ... 20industry.


Obviously the current issue is government contracts. But even if an airline cut off these contracts, it doesn't matter. The OSHA-FAA conflict is exclusively for physical presence on airplanes. Ground crew, ticket agents, gate agents, and so on are under OSHA. OSHA regulations would prevail any time a crew member is off the airplane. And, because pilots and cabin crew still transit through airports, enter into mixed environments (flight crew and non-flight crew employees), and even occasionally have to show up to corporate or other facilities for training, OSHA's vaccine requirement would almost certainly apply in these cases - even if they are theoretically not required for a pilot to fly the plane.

FAA and OSHA wish to clarify that FAA's 1975 Federal Register Notice affected only the application of OSHA requirements to the working conditions of employees on aircraft in operation. In this Notice, FAA stated that an aircraft is "'in operation' from the time the aircraft is first boarded by a crew member, preparatory to a flight, to the time the last crewmember leaves the aircraft after the completion of that flight, including stops on the ground during which at least one crewmember remains on the aircraft, even if the engines are shut down." With respect to other aviation industry employees, such as maintenance personnel and ground support personnel, OSHA has been enforcing, and will continue to enforce, OSHA requirements to the extent allowed under Section 4(b)(1) of the OSHA Act.


Source: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/mou/2000-08-09

Unless the flight crew is able to somehow go about their jobs while never running across a share environment with other airline employees (not possible), OSHA's requirement will be upheld. If pilots show up to the corporate HQ office, employers still have to enforce safety standards. As a silly example, pilots would not be allowed to walk into an office undergoing fumigation just because they are regulated by the FAA on an airplane.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:15 pm

There is no OSHA vaccine requirement at this point. The only mandate is for federal employees and federal contractors (and most airline employees are not actively working on federal contracts)
 
ethernal
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:33 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
There is no OSHA vaccine requirement at this point. The only mandate is for federal employees and federal contractors (and most airline employees are not actively working on federal contracts)


Do any airlines have in place a way to segregate employees based on federal contracts? Not just in terms of personnel, but in terms of entities? Many large corporations that do a lot of federal and non-federal work have separate entities to avoid the regulatory burden of being a government contractor. As far as I know, airlines do not. This would be a significant effort to legally separate the entities into federal contracting and non-federal contracting entities (it is not just a paperwork exercise; there are actual operational things that need to be adjusted to achieve compliance).

And, if the airlines invested a ton of money to do this in order to avoid the mandate, it would be made moot when the OSHA rulemaking process is complete, which will likely be in the next month or two.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:10 pm

Can you imagine what happens when the next virus shows up and it has much worse (with ebola like) death rates? Don't have the Government tell me to get a shot!

Are the airlines too big ? No one group should have that power - labor or management. More smaller airlines could make up one airlines issues better than what we have now Back in the CAB days, airlines had the Mutual Aid Pact. Northwest would go on strike for months and no one noticed.

And before the free market, anti-govt interference types jump up, you just got $35 billion dollars in free govt money ($50B- 30% to be repaid).

Wouldn't it be interesting if an airline said non-vaccinated employees are out and the US Govt supports that airline financially in the transition into a smaller carrier. Just remember my first line in this post - the next virus might be way worse.
 
global1
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:13 pm

Thank you, ethernal, for your clarity and insight.

It seems to me that this resistance is heavily slanted toward being a ‘pilot’ issue. I’m sure many pilots would welcome not having to be confined for hours on end next to unvaccinated and unmasked coworkers (they do not wear masks inside the flight deck) and then go home to their families. Why don't we get their perspective?

In hindsight, Delta should have required a $200. monthly health insurance supplement for every unvaccinated individual it covers under its plan, not just the employee.
Our numbers would have probably been above 90 percentile by now. That still would not have satisfied the mandate, just a smaller number to address.
Last edited by global1 on Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:35 pm

ethernal wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
ethernal wrote:

Outside air exchange will always be augmented by recirculated filtration. That said, even for outdoor air exchange, the cost of operation isn't as dramatic as you make it sound for outside air exchange: modern heat exchangers are very good at getting heat losses down to only a couple of degrees with the other cost being a bit higher pressure loss running through the exchanger. It's not heating up air by 40 degrees, it's heating up air by 2-3 degrees. In aggregate, you're talking about a few percentage points energy going to pressure for the heat exchanger and a few percentage points of loss from imperfect heat exchange per extra air replacement cycle.

With modern heat exchangers and low-loss duct work, you can increase cycles by 5X with much of that being outside air with only a 15-20% increase in energy use. While that isn't a trivial increase, it isn't like you're increasing air conditioning costs by 3-5 times. But unfortunately high quality heat exchangers, high quality ducting, and properly sized fans cost money (and it's an up front cost). So without regulatory pressure (just like with energy efficiency standards), you won't see movement in this space outside of potentially Class A office space which already typically has above code filtration/ventilation (albeit still not enough).

MERV 13 is really the (non-HEPA) gold standard if you want to get virus particles, although MERV 11 is better than the garbage MERV 8 that is the most common filtration that is used. MERV-8 probably does little to stop aerosols. I switched from MERV 8 in my house to MERV 13 a few years back and the difference in air quality is noticeable. UV lights are interesting (and can be useful for odor control as well), but I trust filtration more because not having a filter damages equipment, and an old filter reduces system efficacy (costing $$) - so it's self-sorting problem: filters get replaced. I bet UV-C filtration has a tendency to end up not getting replaced somewhat frequently.

All that said, improved ventilation and filtration are long term partial solutions to a short term problem (COVID, although better ventilation will help reduce disease burden for all kinds of respiratory infections). Airports still have crap air filtration, and I bet airline's offices aren't exactly doing full air cycles every 3 minutes like planes. Hence why vaccines are being mandated at airlines, and why people need to get vaccinated. Even with waning efficacy, vaccination is the quickest way for airlines to return to some degree of normalcy in operations and quite frankly I'm surprised it took as long as it did for many of them to go heads first into a solid mandate.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised Delta is still quiet on this. Is anyone hearing rumblings on when the announcement is going to come out? I assume it is inevitable.


The project I am involved with either have to meet the Washington State Energy Code or the suite of codes required for US Dept of Defense projects, the WSEC is actually tougher. The efficiency of the Energy Recovery Units on a recent 18,000 SF training facility utilized a Dedicated Outside Air System DOAS rated for 3,000 CFM utilizing parallel plate exchangers (wheel style are discouraged due to leakage exhaust to supply) that are 61% efficient. Refer to the HE-4X in the attached brochure. So intake air is raised by 0.61 x (T room - T outside), so if 30F and 70F the post ERV air temp is 54F requiring heating by 16F not 2-3.
https://www.renewaire.com/wp-content/up ... re_Web.pdf

This equipment is about as efficient as regulated anywhere. Outside of office and assembly space in Washington State, every rooftop package unit up through 30 Tons use economizers to get free cooling, but make up air is power exhausted and with separate direct air intake without any heat recovery, so the full 40F temp rise of the outside air. Typically, a commercial building typically draws 15% outside air with 85% recirculated. Larger buildings usually will go with a variable air volume system. The main units bring in the outside air along with recirculated that is heated or cooled, delivered under medium pressure (2"-4" water column) to the VAV boxes, either just a controlling damper or a fan powered box. The fan powered box blends in like 2/3 recirculated air and 1/3 air from the main air handler. In this case the main unit is drawing more like 35% outside air. The outside air standards look at the outside air per square foot, recent energy conservation methods use CO2 in the return air to adjust the % of outside air, sometimes saving 70% of the required air as the building is not fully occupied every moment.

Typical offices and residences only have from 0.5 to 1.5 air changes per hour, the trainer noted drew in 3,000 CFM into a facility with 216 kSF, so an average 72 minutes for an air change, 0.83 ACH. Even the surgical suite has 20 ACH, or 3 minutes, but only 4 ACH with outside air (5:1 recirculated) or every 15 minutes. That one 7,700 surgical suite VAV 30 ton air handler moves 12,600 CFM total with outside air being 4,200 CFM 350 Mbtuh of gas heat required. The energy codes did not require heat recovery here and the Heath Dept discouraged heat recovery for cleanliness issues.


This is way off topic, so I'll end posts on this topic here but I'm confused by the claim that heat exchangers are only ~60% efficient (I couldn't find that number in the spec sheet you listed). Is the issue of scale and/or economically viable units? Swiss Rotors manufacture heat exchangers with 84% nameplate efficiency, and you can up that with lower air speeds (meaning more units at a greater cost to achieve the same airflow of course so I am sure it reaches economic non-viability) to over 90%.. I am not an HVAC expert (and you obviously are :)) so there may be something I am missing here.

In addition, excluding hyper cold climates, I thought that typically most conditioning costs for insulated buildings were on the cooling side, not the heating side. At least when the building is occupied, between ambient electricity consumption of equipment and the 100-watt space heaters walking around inside (humans), only in extremely cold weather is outside air heating needed. If target temp is 70 degrees and outside temperature is 90 degrees (i.e. mid-summer weather in most of the country), that gets to the 2-3 degrees I was mentioning. 0 degrees to 70 degrees is a much bigger delta, but at least in crowded modern buildings, I always understood that heat exhaust was the bigger issue so shedding excess heat is required in all but the coldest weather.

Regardless of the specifics, I think we both agree in principle that additional ventilation (whether recirc or outdoor air introduction) is probably good, albeit comes at a cost (both capital and operating expense). But all that said, doubling ventilation doesn't double HVAC costs. And I do think that is good for all environments - whether it is an airport, an office, or wherever.


Agreed it is outside of the thread topic. Heat exchangers are very efficient, but they don't make heat. One fluid loses heat, the other gains it. At 100% both would have the same heat level (temp if same fluid and same flow rates).

You are right cooling is the dominant conditioning, in particular buildings with servers and similar equipment. Most of these it is desired to keep on in a standby mode when unoccupied, using a lot of power even if the lights are off and no one is home. The trainer building noted above has enough heat from this standby mode to require cooling nearly 100% of the year. Only if the servers are off does it require heat, life costing pointed to electric duct heaters as by far the cheapest solution. In our climate, it is usually high efficiency gas or heat pump for a standard office or commercial space.
 
panamair
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:52 pm

global1 wrote:
Thank you, ethernal, for your clarity and insight.

It seems to me that this resistance is heavily slanted toward being a ‘pilot’ issue. I’m sure many pilots would welcome not having to be confined for hours on end next to unvaccinated and unmasked coworkers (they do not wear masks inside the flight deck) and then go home to their families. Why don't we get their perspective?

In hindsight, Delta should have required a $200. monthly health insurance supplement for every unvaccinated individual it covers under its plan, not just the employee.
Our numbers would have probably been above 90 percentile by now. That still would not have satisfied the mandate, just a smaller number to address.


Tomorrow is the Q3 earnings call for Delta. The question will certainly come up during the Q&A session if management hasn't addressed it in their opening remarks. Last I heard, at Delta, pilots and flight attendants are not the issue - they were already at 85% vaccinated just before the $200 additional payment was announced. At that time, the big 'problem areas' were TechOps in ATL, ACS in ATL and NYC.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.

UA did very well. Just to nitpick, it is about 2300, with exemptions. Out of 67,000 employees, that is 3.4% unvaccinated with only 2000 to remain or 3%.

There is an issue with the TX mandate as the government can set requirements for government contracts. AA in particular will be hard hit if they loose the government contracts. I expect the courts will give the case priority. So far, they have sided with vaccine mandates, but technically I believe this is a state's right (I am not a lawyer).

We shall see. I have a preference for which airline I fly on and I shall book my tickets accordingly. I believe others shall too. The question is, which preference is higher yield?

Lightsaber


Abbott's order is theater and Southwest and American have already commented effectively saying as much and that they will comply with the federal order:

"Southwest told me by email that “according to the President’s Executive Order, federal action supersedes any state mandate or law, and we would be expected to comply with the President’s Order to remain compliant as a federal contractor.” American Airlines similarly said, “We believe the federal vaccine mandate supersedes any conflicting state laws, and this does not change anything for American.”

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... e-mandates

Federal preemption when there is a direct conflict for an interstate carrier is pretty well established.
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:21 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.


Brian Kemp will probably do the same if Delta comes out with this which is why people need to understand why they haven’t done anything is multifaceted. They had enough to think about then the Tex Gov issues that order which gets their brains starting to run about the Ga Gov doing the same


The question will be whether the federal government wants to push the issue hard enough to force airlines into litigation. Someone will file suit against the Texas EO and will probably win for federal preemption reasons, but my guess is that AA does not want to be that someone (nor does DL want to be that someone against a potential Georgia EO).


American and Southwest have both already announced they will not be complying with the Abbott order as it conflicts with federal requirements.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... abbott-ban
 
ethernal
Posts: 504
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:32 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Can you imagine what happens when the next virus shows up and it has much worse (with ebola like) death rates? Don't have the Government tell me to get a shot!


Part of the issue with COVID is that it is the morbid "sweet spot" for being a big enough issue that society can't ignore it, but it is just survivable enough that most people don't see its effects first hand.

If COVID had a 10-20% IFR while maintaining its initial R0 of 2-3, the world would have done a hard lockdown like China. The national guard would have been ordered to enforce restrictions (possibly augmented by the military under the epidemic authorizations allowed for domestic military use in H.R. 5122). If things were not under control, even supply chain essential businesses would have been shut down - likely electricity restrictions, water restrictions, and other wartime-like controls would be put in place to limit the amount of people required to "keep the world turning".

But with an IFR of .5-.1% (Delta is likely closer to that 1% figure in immuno-naive individuals, although new treatments are helping) and heavily biased towards the elderly? It's just deadly enough that it's a big deal for society (and also is a severe enough disease to overrun medical systems), but not deadly enough that people see and feel the danger day to day. It allows denialism to fester, and allows people to rationalize the absurdity of not getting a safe and effective vaccine.

If COVID had an IFR of 10-20%, there would be no noise on vaccines at airlines. We wouldn't have this thread. If the disease was not controlled entirely by the hard lockdown mentioned earlier, the national guard would have had to secure distribution of the vaccine because people would have been so desperate to get it.

Unfortunately here we are with the IFR just under 1%, and so we're having a bunch of political and social drama about having to force people to do the right thing. Because it's necessary to protect the many, but it's not so dangerous that an individual can't roll the dice and end up ahead most of the time even without the vaccine.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:44 pm

ethernal - you are absolutely correct in your analysis. I'm old enough to have seen loved ones die lingering, painful deaths. My daughter (an ICU nurse treating COVID) says there are good deaths and bad deaths. And she sees a lot of them. In her opinion, COVID is one of the worst rivaling certain cancers or burn victims. Why anyone would run that risk to themselves or loved one is beyond me.
 
Nonrevhell
Posts: 48
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:22 pm

American and Southwest airlines say they will continue implementing vaccine mandate despite Texas’ move. https://twitter.com/AnaCabrera/status/1 ... 7480066056
 
santi319
Posts: 1153
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:55 pm

ethernal wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Can you imagine what happens when the next virus shows up and it has much worse (with ebola like) death rates? Don't have the Government tell me to get a shot!


Part of the issue with COVID is that it is the morbid "sweet spot" for being a big enough issue that society can't ignore it, but it is just survivable enough that most people don't see its effects first hand.

If COVID had a 10-20% IFR while maintaining its initial R0 of 2-3, the world would have done a hard lockdown like China. The national guard would have been ordered to enforce restrictions (possibly augmented by the military under the epidemic authorizations allowed for domestic military use in H.R. 5122). If things were not under control, even supply chain essential businesses would have been shut down - likely electricity restrictions, water restrictions, and other wartime-like controls would be put in place to limit the amount of people required to "keep the world turning".

But with an IFR of .5-.1% (Delta is likely closer to that 1% figure in immuno-naive individuals, although new treatments are helping) and heavily biased towards the elderly? It's just deadly enough that it's a big deal for society (and also is a severe enough disease to overrun medical systems), but not deadly enough that people see and feel the danger day to day. It allows denialism to fester, and allows people to rationalize the absurdity of not getting a safe and effective vaccine.

If COVID had an IFR of 10-20%, there would be no noise on vaccines at airlines. We wouldn't have this thread. If the disease was not controlled entirely by the hard lockdown mentioned earlier, the national guard would have had to secure distribution of the vaccine because people would have been so desperate to get it.

Unfortunately here we are with the IFR just under 1%, and so we're having a bunch of political and social drama about having to force people to do the right thing. Because it's necessary to protect the many, but it's not so dangerous that an individual can't roll the dice and end up ahead most of the time even without the vaccine.

What an excellent post. This describes the situation perfectly.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:00 am

I'm reading the FAQ for vaccinations at work. Executive order 14042 (Biden's requirements for vaccination) requires that the mandate be flowed down to all lower-tier sub-contractors.

I take this to mean the regional airlines must be included.


https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/contractors/

Look under "Scope and Applicability"

It even goes down to small business subcontractors per the FAQ! Excluding subcontractors who only provide a product.

This could legally hit catering companies, if they provide services (delivery to aircraft), theoretically.

It sounds like the compliance clause will be in all Federal contracts.
 
ethernal
Posts: 504
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
I'm reading the FAQ for vaccinations at work. Executive order 14042 (Biden's requirements for vaccination) requires that the mandate be flowed down to all lower-tier sub-contractors.

I take this to mean the regional airlines must be included.


https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/contractors/

Look under "Scope and Applicability"

It even goes down to small business subcontractors per the FAQ! Excluding subcontractors who only provide a product.

This could legally hit catering companies, if they provide services (delivery to aircraft), theoretically.

It sounds like the compliance clause will be in all Federal contracts.


Yes, it's intentionally meant to be as broad as possible. And it's still small fries compared to the OSHA guidance that will truly move the needle on vaccinations. Government contractors and the medicare/medicaid requirements will touch maybe 20-30 million people... if OSHA ever finishes the rulemaking, it will impact another 60-70 million.

To be frank, I'm surprised that they didn't just go nuclear. OSHA regulates pretty thoroughly down to 10 employees for most things (under which.. documentation and records are not required and enforcement is sparse). Getting down to 10 would cover about 90% of the US workforce, or about 140 million people. But my guess is enforcement would become almost impossible for OSHA to do given the amount of non-compliance they are likely to see in the ultra-small business sector and maybe that is why they cut it to 100.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:20 am

Discuss the vaccine and other non-aviation portion in non-Av. This thread is for the aviation side of the discussion.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:22 pm

ethernal wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
There is no OSHA vaccine requirement at this point. The only mandate is for federal employees and federal contractors (and most airline employees are not actively working on federal contracts)


Do any airlines have in place a way to segregate employees based on federal contracts? Not just in terms of personnel, but in terms of entities? Many large corporations that do a lot of federal and non-federal work have separate entities to avoid the regulatory burden of being a government contractor. As far as I know, airlines do not. This would be a significant effort to legally separate the entities into federal contracting and non-federal contracting entities (it is not just a paperwork exercise; there are actual operational things that need to be adjusted to achieve compliance).

And, if the airlines invested a ton of money to do this in order to avoid the mandate, it would be made moot when the OSHA rulemaking process is complete, which will likely be in the next month or two.

They must have zero chance of interacting with an employee working a Federal contract per my interpretation of the Federal FAQ on contractors:
https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/contractors/

The burden for what you propose is high:

Q: If a covered contractor employee is likely to be present during the period of performance for a covered contract on only one floor or a separate area of a building, site, or facility controlled by a covered contractor, do other areas of the building, site, or facility controlled by a covered contractor constitute a covered contractor workplace?

A: Yes, unless a covered contractor can affirmatively determine that none of its employees on another floor or in separate areas of the building will come into contact with a covered contractor employee during the period of performance of a covered contract. This would include affirmatively determining that there will be no interactions between covered contractor employees and non-covered contractor employees in those locations during the period of performance on a covered contract, including interactions through use of common areas such as lobbies, security clearance areas, elevators, stairwells, meeting rooms, kitchens, dining areas, and parking garages.


If during a year it cannot be proven (burden is on the contractor) that the employee will have no contact with any other employee who might work a government contract and that includes the corporate nurse.

The government assumes employees working from home will come in too. Please read every bit of the FAQ. I'm not saying I'm agreeing with everything, but it is the rules and the rules are brutal.

Lightsaber
 
Boof02671
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:54 pm

Here is the EO from the Federal Register

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... ontractors
 
panamair
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:25 pm

Delta announced that they expect to have about 1-2% remaining unvaccinated by the time of the EO deadline. Currently stands at 90% company-wide, expect to reach 95% mid-November, plus a few percentage points for exemptions, would bring them to the 1-2% unvaccinated number.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:05 pm

United's vaccine mandate halted (maybe temporarily) by a federal judge

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1 ... 93056?s=20
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:00 am

smokeybandit wrote:
United's vaccine mandate halted (maybe temporarily) by a federal judge

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1 ... 93056?s=20

The unvaccinated who applied for exemptions cannot be put on unpaid leave.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/13/10455366 ... or-workers

The ones who refused vaccines are on their own. This is about medical and religious accomodations. The mandate is still there, it is now on how to handle exemptions.

Lightsaber
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:32 am

Group of transportation industry employees has formed a group called US Freedom Flyers to push back against mandates that infringe on individual and religious liberty and bodily autonomy.

https://www.usfreedomflyers.org/
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3954
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:46 am

What is the rate of vaccination for B6? They have a large international network for an airline of its size.

As for the United vaccine mandate, UA should immediately appeal on the grounds that the case was filed in the wrong court (it should have been filed in Chicago, where the carrier is headquartered). Likewise, if B6 pilots were to sue in Florida, B6 would file to have the case moved to New York City.

As for AA and WN's decision to defy the Texas governor on vaccine mandates...that will be really interesting since I expect both to raise the same argument that Norwegian Cruises used to get a Florida law on a ban on vaccine mandates invalidated...this interferes with commerce (remember that most countries have a vaccination mandate at the outstation); Norwegian raised the Commerce Clause.

Cubsrule wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.


Brian Kemp will probably do the same if Delta comes out with this which is why people need to understand why they haven’t done anything is multifaceted. They had enough to think about then the Tex Gov issues that order which gets their brains starting to run about the Ga Gov doing the same


The question will be whether the federal government wants to push the issue hard enough to force airlines into litigation. Someone will file suit against the Texas EO and will probably win for federal preemption reasons, but my guess is that AA does not want to be that someone (nor does DL want to be that someone against a potential Georgia EO).


The other fly in the ointment is that there is one airline based in a decidedly liberal state that could have employees suing, B6 in New York. If there are lawsuits in TX, GA, and NY, count on the 2nd Circuit to force a circuit split.

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