Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

smokeybandit · Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:38 am

lightsaber wrote:
The mandate is still there, it is now on how to handle exemptions.

Lightsaber

My company is largely federal contractors and we were told today they still have no official guidance on how to adjudicate the exemption requests

Dan77W · Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:47 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
What is the rate of vaccination for B6? They have a large international network for an airline of its size.

As for the United vaccine mandate, UA should immediately appeal on the grounds that the case was filed in the wrong court (it should have been filed in Chicago, where the carrier is headquartered). Likewise, if B6 pilots were to sue in Florida, B6 would file to have the case moved to New York City.

As for AA and WN's decision to defy the Texas governor on vaccine mandates...that will be really interesting since I expect both to raise the same argument that Norwegian Cruises used to get a Florida law on a ban on vaccine mandates invalidated...this interferes with commerce (remember that most countries have a vaccination mandate at the outstation); Norwegian raised the Commerce Clause.

Cubsrule wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:

Brian Kemp will probably do the same if Delta comes out with this which is why people need to understand why they haven’t done anything is multifaceted. They had enough to think about then the Tex Gov issues that order which gets their brains starting to run about the Ga Gov doing the same

The question will be whether the federal government wants to push the issue hard enough to force airlines into litigation. Someone will file suit against the Texas EO and will probably win for federal preemption reasons, but my guess is that AA does not want to be that someone (nor does DL want to be that someone against a potential Georgia EO).

The other fly in the ointment is that there is one airline based in a decidedly liberal state that could have employees suing, B6 in New York. If there are lawsuits in TX, GA, and NY, count on the 2nd Circuit to force a circuit split.

Not as much of an issue for aircrews, more often than not they are exempt.

FlyingElvii · Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:24 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
As a Delta employee I'm waiting to see when Delta joins the ranks of the must be vaxed. Company wide we are in the high 80% range I think. The drag down is mostly in my division, Tech Ops, I think. Last I heard we were around 74% with the first shot. I know there are more hold outs than I would like around me. If and when Delta mandates it I expect a lot of push back in Tech Ops. I even suspect some around me will opt to walk away after 25+ years. I really don't understand that, but it is their choice.

Endeavor is requiring new hires to take it, but not sure about everyone else.
I am not sure about everyone else, but I can see why they wouldn’t require it, the already tight pilot pool would immediately shrink by 20% or more.

WkndWanderer · Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:35 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
As a Delta employee I'm waiting to see when Delta joins the ranks of the must be vaxed. Company wide we are in the high 80% range I think. The drag down is mostly in my division, Tech Ops, I think. Last I heard we were around 74% with the first shot. I know there are more hold outs than I would like around me. If and when Delta mandates it I expect a lot of push back in Tech Ops. I even suspect some around me will opt to walk away after 25+ years. I really don't understand that, but it is their choice.

Endeavor is requiring new hires to take it, but not sure about everyone else.
I am not sure about everyone else, but I can see why they wouldn’t require it, the already tight pilot pool would immediately shrink by 20% or more.

Endeavor has more than 100 employees, they are going to have to require it. They’re are almost certainly a subcontractor, but at a bare minimum they’ll have to require vaccine or weekly testing.

WkndWanderer · Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:38 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
What is the rate of vaccination for B6? They have a large international network for an airline of its size.

As for the United vaccine mandate, UA should immediately appeal on the grounds that the case was filed in the wrong court (it should have been filed in Chicago, where the carrier is headquartered). Likewise, if B6 pilots were to sue in Florida, B6 would file to have the case moved to New York City.

As for AA and WN's decision to defy the Texas governor on vaccine mandates...that will be really interesting since I expect both to raise the same argument that Norwegian Cruises used to get a Florida law on a ban on vaccine mandates invalidated...this interferes with commerce (remember that most countries have a vaccination mandate at the outstation); Norwegian raised the Commerce Clause.

Cubsrule wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:

Brian Kemp will probably do the same if Delta comes out with this which is why people need to understand why they haven’t done anything is multifaceted. They had enough to think about then the Tex Gov issues that order which gets their brains starting to run about the Ga Gov doing the same

The question will be whether the federal government wants to push the issue hard enough to force airlines into litigation. Someone will file suit against the Texas EO and will probably win for federal preemption reasons, but my guess is that AA does not want to be that someone (nor does DL want to be that someone against a potential Georgia EO).

The other fly in the ointment is that there is one airline based in a decidedly liberal state that could have employees suing, B6 in New York. If there are lawsuits in TX, GA, and NY, count on the 2nd Circuit to force a circuit split.

This particular type of contractor mandate is more established through federal preemption under the supremacy clause, but there are multiple ways to skin a cat here. This is more about Abbott facing primary challenges to his right than a legitimate belief that the governor of Texas can control federal contractor requirements.

lightsaber · Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:28 am

smokeybandit wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The mandate is still there, it is now on how to handle exemptions.

Lightsaber

My company is largely federal contractors and we were told today they still have no official guidance on how to adjudicate the exemption requests

That I agree on. They just seem to tell the companies do it and... poor guidance.

I expect at my work many exemptions, but for the majority of the currently unvaccinated, I expect today they'll attend the onsite vaccination clinic (all 3 available), there will be another in 4 weeks.
The rest will figure out a way to apply for an exemption. They are frustrated the company will not provide any guidance in how to fill out exemptions and that is because my employer just doesn't know as no one, including the airlines, knows.

While I expect more exemptions at WN and AA say then UA, UA only had 2,000 apply (link upthread).

This is something that must be addressed and should have been addressed when the mandate was issued.

Lightsaber

aemoreira1981 · Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:39 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The mandate is still there, it is now on how to handle exemptions.

Lightsaber

My company is largely federal contractors and we were told today they still have no official guidance on how to adjudicate the exemption requests

It is looking as though the circuit courts are going to split, meaning there will be a resolution sooner than later. Then the second issue will be when airlines deny religious exemptions claiming no legitimate basis for the exemption.

aemoreira1981 · Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.

UA did very well. Just to nitpick, it is about 2300, with exemptions. Out of 67,000 employees, that is 3.4% unvaccinated with only 2000 to remain or 3%.

There is an issue with the TX mandate as the government can set requirements for government contracts. AA in particular will be hard hit if they loose the government contracts. I expect the courts will give the case priority. So far, they have sided with vaccine mandates, but technically I believe this is a state's right (I am not a lawyer).

We shall see. I have a preference for which airline I fly on and I shall book my tickets accordingly. I believe others shall too. The question is, which preference is higher yield?

Lightsaber

In the case of American, I suspect they may actually claim that Texas is violating the Commerce Clause, which would also directly take on a different judge in the same circuit (a Trump appointee) ruling against United...that their ability to engage in international commerce is more important than a religious exemption.

LAXintl · Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:09 pm

Related, TSA says about 40% of its workforce remains unvaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics ... index.html

TSA Administrator David Pekoske says the agency is preparing contingency plans to deal with staff shortages.

32andBelow · Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:46 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Related, TSA says about 40% of its workforce remains unvaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics ... index.html

TSA Administrator David Pekoske says the agency is preparing contingency plans to deal with staff shortages.

I don’t know where they come up with figures like this. Before the mandates people weren’t submitting their vax status to the gov.

lightsaber · Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:27 pm

32andBelow wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Related, TSA says about 40% of its workforce remains unvaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics ... index.html

TSA Administrator David Pekoske says the agency is preparing contingency plans to deal with staff shortages.

I don’t know where they come up with figures like this. Before the mandates people weren’t submitting their vax status to the gov.

I imagine it is like my employer. We had to go online and affirm our vaccination status back in July.
After the September mandate, we had to re-go back into the system and affirm our vaccination status.
Starting tomorrow, we must scan in our vaccine card into the system and due date for dose #1 is end of the month (October).

I've had to submit other vaccine status to the government. In fact, a large number of my friends are on a project where the other government required a complete vaccination proof. A really simple "do you want the job or not."
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... demic.html

People have forgotten bad pandemics. Talk to anyone who lived through the 1957 flu, most say when they had it, they were afraid they wouldn't die.
Or the 1968, where people who had it also felt it was so bad
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... demic.html

Considering what all the doctors I know in the coronavirus wards are prescribing as pain killers, I think since people suffer in isolation, we have interesting opinions.

Lightsaber

32andBelow · Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:51 pm

lightsaber wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Related, TSA says about 40% of its workforce remains unvaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics ... index.html

TSA Administrator David Pekoske says the agency is preparing contingency plans to deal with staff shortages.

I don’t know where they come up with figures like this. Before the mandates people weren’t submitting their vax status to the gov.

I imagine it is like my employer. We had to go online and affirm our vaccination status back in July.
After the September mandate, we had to re-go back into the system and affirm our vaccination status.
Starting tomorrow, we must scan in our vaccine card into the system and due date for dose #1 is end of the month (October).

I've had to submit other vaccine status to the government. In fact, a large number of my friends are on a project where the other government required a complete vaccination proof. A really simple "do you want the job or not."
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... demic.html

People have forgotten bad pandemics. Talk to anyone who lived through the 1957 flu, most say when they had it, they were afraid they wouldn't die.
Or the 1968, where people who had it also felt it was so bad
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... demic.html

Considering what all the doctors I know in the coronavirus wards are prescribing as pain killers, I think since people suffer in isolation, we have interesting opinions.

Lightsaber

well I know for my federal agency I was never asked to submit anything until the mandate. We are Union. I assume the Union tsa would be similar.

Polot · Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:54 pm

32andBelow wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I don’t know where they come up with figures like this. Before the mandates people weren’t submitting their vax status to the gov.

I imagine it is like my employer. We had to go online and affirm our vaccination status back in July.
After the September mandate, we had to re-go back into the system and affirm our vaccination status.
Starting tomorrow, we must scan in our vaccine card into the system and due date for dose #1 is end of the month (October).

I've had to submit other vaccine status to the government. In fact, a large number of my friends are on a project where the other government required a complete vaccination proof. A really simple "do you want the job or not."
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... demic.html

People have forgotten bad pandemics. Talk to anyone who lived through the 1957 flu, most say when they had it, they were afraid they wouldn't die.
Or the 1968, where people who had it also felt it was so bad
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resour ... demic.html

Considering what all the doctors I know in the coronavirus wards are prescribing as pain killers, I think since people suffer in isolation, we have interesting opinions.

Lightsaber
well I know for my federal agency I was never asked to submit anything until the mandate. We are Union. I assume the Union tsa would be similar.

Same with my agency. Many of us were vaccinated through our agency though so they already had our statuses (and no additional information was required from us to meet mandate).

atcsundevil · Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:31 pm

32andBelow wrote:
well I know for my federal agency I was never asked to submit anything until the mandate. We are Union. I assume the Union tsa would be similar.

They probably had a better idea with controllers though, because we were required to report our vaccinations to the flight surgeon. TSA obviously don't have medicals, so I can see how it would be more difficult obtaining accurate numbers.

Boof02671 · Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:57 am

The latest from AA

32andBelow · Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:30 am

atcsundevil wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
well I know for my federal agency I was never asked to submit anything until the mandate. We are Union. I assume the Union tsa would be similar.

They probably had a better idea with controllers though, because we were required to report our vaccinations to the flight surgeon. TSA obviously don't have medicals, so I can see how it would be more difficult obtaining accurate numbers.

What do you mean we were required to report our vaccinations to the flight surgeon. That’s untrue. At least in my region. Ours said he didn’t need to know and none were submitted. Im vaccinated, but there’s no way the faa would know that as I haven’t attested to it yet.

atcsundevil · Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:55 am

32andBelow wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
well I know for my federal agency I was never asked to submit anything until the mandate. We are Union. I assume the Union tsa would be similar.

They probably had a better idea with controllers though, because we were required to report our vaccinations to the flight surgeon. TSA obviously don't have medicals, so I can see how it would be more difficult obtaining accurate numbers.

What do you mean we were required to report our vaccinations to the flight surgeon. That’s untrue. At least in my region. Ours said he didn’t need to know and none were submitted. Im vaccinated, but there’s no way the faa would know that as I haven’t attested to it yet.

We were required to report it so that we could be pulled off the schedule for 48 hours.

smokeybandit · Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:23 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Related, TSA says about 40% of its workforce remains unvaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics ... index.html

TSA Administrator David Pekoske says the agency is preparing contingency plans to deal with staff shortages.

At a time when so many people are choosing not to work combined with a federal hiring process that's by no means swift, what possible contingency plans could there be?

flymco753 · Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:58 pm

DL had it remain a personal choice and had religious/medical exemptions but still hit a 90% vaccination rate within the company IJS.

DL777200LR · Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:32 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DL had it remain a personal choice and had religious/medical exemptions but still hit a 90% vaccination rate within the company IJS.

Personal choice yes, but they also included a $200 a month increase in health premiums if not vaccinated which I’m sure led a lot of people to decide to get the vaccine.

LNCS0930 · Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:00 pm

[photoid][/photoid]

DL777200LR wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
DL had it remain a personal choice and had religious/medical exemptions but still hit a 90% vaccination rate within the company IJS.

Personal choice yes, but they also included a $200 a month increase in health premiums if not vaccinated which I’m sure led a lot of people to decide to get the vaccine.

I do suspect Delta within 2-3 weeks will announce its mandatory. As lightsaber maybe theorized they probably are securing doses of all 3 vaccines right now at their vaccine hub they have so often spoken about in Atlanta. When they lower the boom they’ll probably tell the remaining 6-8% they have til 12/8 to get vaccinated and given they’ll have the vaccine right there everyone (who works in Atlanta at least) will easily be able to get it. It would seem illogical otherwise because if you don’t announce it by 11/1 you’ll have a hard time getting everyone who is unvaccinated to get it by 12/8. I don’t think Delta has in some way discovered a mysterious way around the mandate that no other airline has.

KMCOFlyer · Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:59 pm

DL777200LR wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
DL had it remain a personal choice and had religious/medical exemptions but still hit a 90% vaccination rate within the company IJS.

Personal choice yes, but they also included a $200 a month increase in health premiums if not vaccinated which I’m sure led a lot of people to decide to get the vaccine.

From what I’ve heard the $200 surcharge only applies if the affected employee is on the DL health insurance plan (could be wrong) and those with medical exemptions get that fee waived.

32andBelow · Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:46 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Related, TSA says about 40% of its workforce remains unvaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics ... index.html

TSA Administrator David Pekoske says the agency is preparing contingency plans to deal with staff shortages.

At a time when so many people are choosing not to work combined with a federal hiring process that's by no means swift, what possible contingency plans could there be?

They already sub contract some stuff like the ticket checking or line organization at some airports. I wouldn’t mind tsa just being the people that operate the machines and scan the bags under the airport.

smokeybandit · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:26 pm

Southwest Airlines has scrapped a plan to put unvaccinated employees who have applied for but haven’t received a religious or medical exemption on unpaid leave starting by a federal deadline in December.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/19/southwe ... 1634649360

CobaltScar · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:58 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Southwest Airlines has scrapped a plan to put unvaccinated employees who have applied for but haven’t received a religious or medical exemption on unpaid leave starting by a federal deadline in December.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/19/southwe ... 1634649360

lol, likely because half their workforce would have taken them up on free time off.

FlyingElvii · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:05 pm

Looks like American has joined the parade, at least pushing off any work actions until after Thanksgiving. Gee, I wonder why....

American Airlines flight attendants union tells employees they won't be fired if they refuse to get vaccinated by the airline's deadline
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/a ... -ntp-feeds

"The Association of Professional Flight Attendants on Monday updated its members on the status of its negotiations with the airline regarding the vaccine mandate. American, the union stated, indicated that it wouldn't be taking a hardline approach like its rival, United Airlines, to those requesting exemptions for medical or religious reasons.
"For those Flight Attendants who remain unvaccinated and do not receive an accommodation, you will not be automatically removed from service or terminated from employment on the deadline for compliance,"

Boof02671 · Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:46 am

There is an EO for Federal Contractors.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... ontractors

And OSHA had send the rule for the businesses with 100 or more employees

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... eview.aspx

Chemist · Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:17 pm

Looks like I might have to start flying United.

WkndWanderer · Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:39 pm

SWAPA's injunction request to block the vaccine mandate at Southwest was denied today by a federal court in Texas.

"Because Southwest is a federal contractor, the Vaccine Policy is required by law,” the judge said."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/2 ... ate-517253

Cardude2 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:38 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
SWAPA's injunction request to block the vaccine mandate at Southwest was denied today by a federal court in Texas.

"Because Southwest is a federal contractor, the Vaccine Policy is required by law,” the judge said."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/2 ... ate-517253

good, good, as expected its the law

alasizon · Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:10 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
SWAPA's injunction request to block the vaccine mandate at Southwest was denied today by a federal court in Texas.

"Because Southwest is a federal contractor, the Vaccine Policy is required by law,” the judge said."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/2 ... ate-517253

This basically seals that deal that come November 22nd the industry will be having some issues.

JohanTally · Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:58 am

Cardude2 wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
SWAPA's injunction request to block the vaccine mandate at Southwest was denied today by a federal court in Texas.

"Because Southwest is a federal contractor, the Vaccine Policy is required by law,” the judge said."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/2 ... ate-517253

good, good, as expected its the law

Not to nitpick but it is a federal mandate imposed by the Executive Branch. The Legislative Branch is in charge of creating laws in the US. Airlines not abiding by the mandate aren't technically violating the law but they would set themselves up for retaliation from the Federal Government in the form of fines and other penalties.

448205 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:46 am

I know a captain at AA that has already sold his house in anticipation of being fired in December.

With the pilot shortage, this isn't going to be good.

flyboy730 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:25 am

nwadeicer wrote:
global1 wrote:
I'm hopeful Delta will follow suit soon. I don't really see that they have a choice. They will not risk millions in government contracts over the separation of approximately 300 employees (based on UA numbers). Also, the optics are not good when you've worked so hard to be perceived as as a leader in covid prevention with blocking middle seats, no-fly lists, mask enforcement, etc,,,

I'm way over the unvaccinated not protecting themselves much less caring about those around them. No one is irreplaceable.

Show them the door.

I have a valid, documented medical condition that prevents me from getting the vaccine. If Delta forces me to get one I will be a early retired, very well off, ex employee

Same here. After 24 years of airline flying, I can take it or leave it.

tmoney · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:25 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I know a captain at AA that has already sold his house in anticipation of being fired in December.

With the pilot shortage, this isn't going to be good.

No worries, there’s a 100 regional pilots waiting to flow into mainline for any FO promoted to take the outgoing Capt’s spot.
Also, 1000 more CFIs with 1500hrs waiting to go into regionals.

flyingclrs727 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:38 am

lightsaber wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
UA was smart to roll out their mandate when they did. They now have an almost (save approximately 300 ppl) 100% vaccinated workforce. They also got it done before the massive drama started with other airlines making the call closer to the deadline imposed by the federal mandate. UA is the airline everyone loves to hate, but they have managed COVID better than any other US major when it comes to operational performance.

WN and AA’s later decisions mean that they come at a time when the state of Texas and the federal government “feud” over vaccine mandates are at an all time high. Gov. Abbott just issued an EO that bans private employers from mandating vaccines. That’s going to put them in a sticky situation as they’ll have to wait for the issue to work its way through the courts likely. Meanwhile, they’ll face a percentage of their workforce being unvaccinated and emboldened due to the conflict between Texas and the federal government.

I’m not talking about the virtues of vaccine mandates by governments here. Just the simple logistics of one company already being over and done with it and able to essentially function as normal, and two others that are going to be caught in the middle of this for a while and may have portions of their workforce unable to work, or engaging in protests in some form or another.

UA did very well. Just to nitpick, it is about 2300, with exemptions. Out of 67,000 employees, that is 3.4% unvaccinated with only 2000 to remain or 3%.

There is an issue with the TX mandate as the government can set requirements for government contracts. AA in particular will be hard hit if they loose the government contracts. I expect the courts will give the case priority. So far, they have sided with vaccine mandates, but technically I believe this is a state's right (I am not a lawyer).

We shall see. I have a preference for which airline I fly on and I shall book my tickets accordingly. I believe others shall too. The question is, which preference is higher yield?

Lightsaber

I'm not a lawyer either, but the federal government has the constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce. Most flights are between airports in different states. Also considering this involves communicable diseases with that can be spread by proximity to infected people, I wouldn't be surprised if intrastate flights on which there are connecting passengers and crew could also be regulated. It would be awfully hard to have segregated flights that are only intrastate.

Aaron747 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:47 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I know a captain at AA that has already sold his house in anticipation of being fired in December.

With the pilot shortage, this isn't going to be good.

These attitudes are seriously impacting the economy's ability to recover fully. It's stunning to watch.

joeblow10 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:11 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I know a captain at AA that has already sold his house in anticipation of being fired in December.

With the pilot shortage, this isn't going to be good.

These attitudes are seriously impacting the economy's ability to recover fully. It's stunning to watch.

Precisely. Agree with them or not - those refusing to get the vaccine aren’t simply a crowd to write off. They are port workers, state troopers, pilots, grocery store clerks, snowplow drivers… you name it. It’s going to be fun to watch people wake up to the reality of what a sweeping move a federal mandate is when a large percentage of the day to day workforce is fired come December, in conjunction with the already rampaging employment shortage

This isn’t political. It’s simply the reality… things are going to get very ugly come December if this all goes thru. The butterfly effect leading to shortages at your local grocery store is just the beginning

global1 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:45 am

I’m tired of the unvaccinated’s selfish whining and threats.

Go ahead, resign. Call their bluff. It’s 95% hot air. And if we have to go through a temporary rough patch to get to the other side, so be it.

If you face temporary shortages at your local grocery store or have to wait for your IPhone 13, remember the 700,000+ that have lost their lives.

32andBelow · Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:03 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I know a captain at AA that has already sold his house in anticipation of being fired in December.

With the pilot shortage, this isn't going to be good.

These attitudes are seriously impacting the economy's ability to recover fully. It's stunning to watch.

Precisely. Agree with them or not - those refusing to get the vaccine aren’t simply a crowd to write off. They are port workers, state troopers, pilots, grocery store clerks, snowplow drivers… you name it. It’s going to be fun to watch people wake up to the reality of what a sweeping move a federal mandate is when a large percentage of the day to day workforce is fired come December, in conjunction with the already rampaging employment shortage

This isn’t political. It’s simply the reality… things are going to get very ugly come December if this all goes thru. The butterfly effect leading to shortages at your local grocery store is just the beginning

It’s not going to be a large number at all. Have we seen any example of a large number getting fired in any industry? No.

LNCS0930 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:09 pm

32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

These attitudes are seriously impacting the economy's ability to recover fully. It's stunning to watch.

Precisely. Agree with them or not - those refusing to get the vaccine aren’t simply a crowd to write off. They are port workers, state troopers, pilots, grocery store clerks, snowplow drivers… you name it. It’s going to be fun to watch people wake up to the reality of what a sweeping move a federal mandate is when a large percentage of the day to day workforce is fired come December, in conjunction with the already rampaging employment shortage

This isn’t political. It’s simply the reality… things are going to get very ugly come December if this all goes thru. The butterfly effect leading to shortages at your local grocery store is just the beginning

It’s not going to be a large number at all. Have we seen any example of a large number getting fired in any industry? No.

It doesn’t really have to be a large number to have a huge impact. Just 30-50 pilots walking is a big number to operations

Polot · Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:22 pm

Airlines (and other companies) are keeping track of employee’s vaccination progress, and at this point already know roughly the number of employees they are losing and where. So they have time to plan and mitigate.

Has UA fired their unvaccinated employees yet? Wasn’t sure when their requirement went into effect as they did it on their own, not because of the federal contractor mandate.

joeblow10 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:01 pm

global1 wrote:
I’m tired of the unvaccinated’s selfish whining and threats.

Go ahead, resign. Call their bluff. It’s 95% hot air. And if we have to go through a temporary rough patch to get to the other side, so be it.

If you face temporary shortages at your local grocery store or have to wait for your IPhone 13, remember the 700,000+ that have lost their lives.

Once again - easy to say now, but when people go to go grocery store this Holiday season and can’t find ingredients to cook, or the roads aren’t plowed for you to drive on this winter… people will think very differently. And just when exactly does this “temporary issue” you speak of end? These folks are bent on not ever getting the vaccine

About 3-5% of folks have been getting axed in places that have mandated it thus far. Some departments in WA for example saw upwards of 15%. You can bet that if even 5% let alone 15% of folks at companies across America are let go… it’s going to be very ugly. As somebody said - it doesn’t take much to make a big dent in Ops, especially when we’re already short staffed on everybody from pilots to cooks

Dreamflight767 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:27 pm

Since the unvaccinated could kill others, alcohol should be illegal since those who drink could kill people who don’t (me).

Thinking about it, a drunk pilot could kill me as much as an unvaccinated pilot.

alfa164 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:44 pm

global1 wrote:
I’m tired of the unvaccinated’s selfish whining and threats. Go ahead, resign. Call their bluff. It’s 95% hot air. And if we have to go through a temporary rough patch to get to the other side, so be it. If you face temporary shortages at your local grocery store or have to wait for your IPhone 13, remember the 700,000+ that have lost their lives.

This. People who have gotten multiple vaccines (Diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (DTaP), Tetanus, diphtheria and acellular pertussis, Poliovirus (IPV), Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR), Varicella (Chickenpox), Pneumococcal (PCV), Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib), Rotavirus, Hepatitis B (Hep B), and Hepatitis A (Hep A)) have suddenly decided to make the Covid vaccine a political issue (or, prehaps more correctly, demagogic politicians have made it political), and these die-hard objectors want to make their stand for... some irresponsible reason.

An airlines passengers - and fellow crew members - deserve to know they are as safe as possible whenever the fly. That includes being protected from any crew members or workers who might spread a deadly disease. The Covid vaccines are the best protection we have; that is why it is being made mandatory.

Dreamflight767 wrote:
Since the unvaccinated could kill others, alcohol should be illegal since those who drink could kill people who don’t (me). Thinking about it, a drunk pilot could kill me as much as an unvaccinated pilot.

Yes, and that is exactly why drunk pilots are not allowed to fly - just like unvaccinated employees should not be allowed to come into contact with passengers and other employees.
You have made a very sound case for that.

:smile:

119297 · Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:07 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
I know a captain at AA that has already sold his house in anticipation of being fired in December.

With the pilot shortage, this isn't going to be good.

United didn't seem to have any Operational problems.

sircygnus · Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:02 pm

Saw on the news that Sen. Hawley has asked Department of Treasury to look into a possible contradiction in Federal directives regarding the dismissal of those refusing vaccination being a violation of the CARES act or whichever bill provided help to the airlines. Anyone hear of this?

32andBelow · Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:33 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
global1 wrote:
I’m tired of the unvaccinated’s selfish whining and threats.

Go ahead, resign. Call their bluff. It’s 95% hot air. And if we have to go through a temporary rough patch to get to the other side, so be it.

If you face temporary shortages at your local grocery store or have to wait for your IPhone 13, remember the 700,000+ that have lost their lives.

Once again - easy to say now, but when people go to go grocery store this Holiday season and can’t find ingredients to cook, or the roads aren’t plowed for you to drive on this winter… people will think very differently. And just when exactly does this “temporary issue” you speak of end? These folks are bent on not ever getting the vaccine

About 3-5% of folks have been getting axed in places that have mandated it thus far. Some departments in WA for example saw upwards of 15%. You can bet that if even 5% let alone 15% of folks at companies across America are let go… it’s going to be very ugly. As somebody said - it doesn’t take much to make a big dent in Ops, especially when we’re already short staffed on everybody from pilots to cooks

The 5% that won’t get vaccinated are the same 5% that causes problems, scams, is always calling sick, and is always getting in trouble at their work

JoseSalazar · Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:50 pm

32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
global1 wrote:
I’m tired of the unvaccinated’s selfish whining and threats.

Go ahead, resign. Call their bluff. It’s 95% hot air. And if we have to go through a temporary rough patch to get to the other side, so be it.

If you face temporary shortages at your local grocery store or have to wait for your IPhone 13, remember the 700,000+ that have lost their lives.

Once again - easy to say now, but when people go to go grocery store this Holiday season and can’t find ingredients to cook, or the roads aren’t plowed for you to drive on this winter… people will think very differently. And just when exactly does this “temporary issue” you speak of end? These folks are bent on not ever getting the vaccine

About 3-5% of folks have been getting axed in places that have mandated it thus far. Some departments in WA for example saw upwards of 15%. You can bet that if even 5% let alone 15% of folks at companies across America are let go… it’s going to be very ugly. As somebody said - it doesn’t take much to make a big dent in Ops, especially when we’re already short staffed on everybody from pilots to cooks

The 5% that won’t get vaccinated are the same 5% that causes problems, scams, is always calling sick, and is always getting in trouble at their work

Oh is it? So you mean to tell me all my military pilot buddies with impeccable records who are getting out/retiring over the vaccine mandate are trouble makers with poor attendance records? Ditto for my airline pilot buddies who are refusing (many of whom served in / retired from the military and have had good clean records in both careers)? Laughable.

32andBelow · Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:54 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Once again - easy to say now, but when people go to go grocery store this Holiday season and can’t find ingredients to cook, or the roads aren’t plowed for you to drive on this winter… people will think very differently. And just when exactly does this “temporary issue” you speak of end? These folks are bent on not ever getting the vaccine

About 3-5% of folks have been getting axed in places that have mandated it thus far. Some departments in WA for example saw upwards of 15%. You can bet that if even 5% let alone 15% of folks at companies across America are let go… it’s going to be very ugly. As somebody said - it doesn’t take much to make a big dent in Ops, especially when we’re already short staffed on everybody from pilots to cooks

The 5% that won’t get vaccinated are the same 5% that causes problems, scams, is always calling sick, and is always getting in trouble at their work

Oh is it? So you mean to tell me all my military pilot buddies with impeccable records who are getting out/retiring over the vaccine mandate are trouble makers with poor attendance records? Ditto for my airline pilot buddies who are refusing (many of whom served in / retired from the military and have had good clean records in both careers)? Laughable.

Losing your military career over a vaccine is the most hilarious. Military members are the most vaccinated people on earth. Why are they so afraid of this one?

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