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Pythagoras
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Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:33 am

Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:39 pm

News today is the United Airlines has reached 99% employee vaccination rate.

United Airlines is touting the success of its COVID-19 vaccine mandate, saying that more than 99% of its U.S.-based employees have met the company's requirement to get vaccinated, or have applied for a religious or medical exemption.


https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1041360095/united-airlines-workers-vaccinated

Will passengers choose to fly on United because they are safer than other airlines?

Are American and Southwest going to lose passengers because they haven't shared employee vaccination rates?

It seems to me that if the airlines and their employees wanted to get back to normal that everyone at the airline would get vaccinated as soon as possible. Why isn't vaccination being discussed with regards to getting back to normal?
 
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United787
Posts: 2997
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:26 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
News today is the United Airlines has reached 99% employee vaccination rate.

United Airlines is touting the success of its COVID-19 vaccine mandate, saying that more than 99% of its U.S.-based employees have met the company's requirement to get vaccinated, or have applied for a religious or medical exemption.


https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1041360095/united-airlines-workers-vaccinated

Will passengers choose to fly on United because they are safer than other airlines?

Are American and Southwest going to lose passengers because they haven't shared employee vaccination rates?

It seems to me that if the airlines and their employees wanted to get back to normal that everyone at the airline would get vaccinated as soon as possible. Why isn't vaccination being discussed with regards to getting back to normal?


United's policy definitely gives me more reason to fly them, Bravo to United for being a leader on this issue.

The whole anti-vaxxer movement is mind boggling to me. But it isn't just the U.S., this is a European problem also.

You are exactly right about getting back to normal. It seems some of the people that were most vocal against any sort of lockdowns and masks are also the same folks against the vaccines, it doesn't make sense.
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:01 pm

It is a safety issue to me. This is how I see the situation.

It says a lot to me that United Airlines understands the public health issues. I appreciate the leadership. Other airlines just don't get it.

Image
 
dcajet
Posts: 5101
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:37 pm

American does a 180 degree turn on its policy regarding unvaccinated US staff. Without specifying dates it says now that "team members who choose to remain unvaccinated will not be able to work at American Airlines".


Image
 
AirDO
Posts: 56
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:39 pm

Will DL and others follow suit as well after AA and UA?
 
kalvado
Posts: 3381
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:55 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
It is a safety issue to me. This is how I see the situation.

It says a lot to me that United Airlines understands the public health issues. I appreciate the leadership. Other airlines just don't get it.

Image

Problem is, I don't interact with airline staff enough to meet CDC possible infection criteria - 10 min under 6'. The person in the next seat, though....
 
JohanTally
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:40 am

AirDO wrote:
Will DL and others follow suit as well after AA and UA?

As stated in the AA memo this is because they have government contracts which I'm sure DL would be in the same boat.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:43 am

AS is also requiring the vaccine now: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... employees/
 
cpl22586
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:39 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:45 am

JetBlue is apparently also going to require all new hires and current employees to be fully vaccinated by December 8th
 
alasizon
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:28 am

JohanTally wrote:
AirDO wrote:
Will DL and others follow suit as well after AA and UA?

As stated in the AA memo this is because they have government contracts which I'm sure DL would be in the same boat.


All the US majors are in the same boat - mandated vaccinations by December 8th.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:46 am

dcajet wrote:
American does a 180 degree turn on its policy regarding unvaccinated US staff. Without specifying dates it says now that "team members who choose to remain unvaccinated will not be able to work at American Airlines".


Image

They probably don't specify dates because the dates are set out in the EO. Contractors are required to be vaccinated by Dec. 8.

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/contract ... e-mandate/
 
tys777
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:13 am

Only warning. Keep the thread on topic. Posting off topic, political, or other rule violations will result in immediate deletion and possible suspension.
 
crj900lr
Posts: 500
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:16 am

atcsundevil wrote:
dcajet wrote:
American does a 180 degree turn on its policy regarding unvaccinated US staff. Without specifying dates it says now that "team members who choose to remain unvaccinated will not be able to work at American Airlines".


Image

They probably don't specify dates because the dates are set out in the EO. Contractors are required to be vaccinated by Dec. 8.

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/contract ... e-mandate/



Then I am sure Dougie and Robert will sign a letter stating they they and American Airline take full responsibility for the health and well being of the vaccinated employees and if anything should happen to said employee, as a result of the vaccine, American will be held 100% responsible.
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:37 am

So it seems the Biden admin is using a funky loop hole of some kind to claim the airlines are government contractors. I’ll be intrigued to see if SWA and DAL cave also. My feeling is they will not. Delta last I saw was at 84-86% anyway
 
32andBelow
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:52 am

madpropsyo wrote:
AS is also requiring the vaccine now: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... employees/

I bet the calculus was hard for Alaska. I don’t think the anchorage based crews are gonna take that very well
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:53 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
So it seems the Biden admin is using a funky loop hole of some kind to claim the airlines are government contractors. I’ll be intrigued to see if SWA and DAL cave also. My feeling is they will not. Delta last I saw was at 84-86% anyway

EAS, cares funds, military contracts. How are they not?
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:55 am

32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
So it seems the Biden admin is using a funky loop hole of some kind to claim the airlines are government contractors. I’ll be intrigued to see if SWA and DAL cave also. My feeling is they will not. Delta last I saw was at 84-86% anyway

EAS, cares funds, military contracts. How are they not?


If they were wouldn’t this have immediately been a story 3-4 weeks ago when the initial mandate came out? Also most of the employees aren’t directly involved anyway with personal CONTACT with any of those folks. I have to assume this is a loophole because as I said otherwise the airlines all would have realized this a month back
 
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Aaron747
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:55 am

crj900lr wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
dcajet wrote:
American does a 180 degree turn on its policy regarding unvaccinated US staff. Without specifying dates it says now that "team members who choose to remain unvaccinated will not be able to work at American Airlines".


Image

They probably don't specify dates because the dates are set out in the EO. Contractors are required to be vaccinated by Dec. 8.

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/contract ... e-mandate/



Then I am sure Dougie and Robert will sign a letter stating they they and American Airline take full responsibility for the health and well being of the vaccinated employees and if anything should happen to said employee, as a result of the vaccine, American will be held 100% responsible.


This is not required due to a. very low risk of adverse side effects b. employers are not administering vaccines themselves. There is basically no employer liability if employees are getting vaccinated on their own and/or the employer is partnering with a healthcare provider to have them done.

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... rkers.aspx
[i]
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:59 am

Aaron747 wrote:
crj900lr wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
They probably don't specify dates because the dates are set out in the EO. Contractors are required to be vaccinated by Dec. 8.

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/contract ... e-mandate/



Then I am sure Dougie and Robert will sign a letter stating they they and American Airline take full responsibility for the health and well being of the vaccinated employees and if anything should happen to said employee, as a result of the vaccine, American will be held 100% responsible.


This is not required due to a. very low risk of adverse side effects b. employers are not administering vaccines themselves. There is basically no employer liability if employees are getting vaccinated on their own and/or the employer is partnering with a healthcare provider to have them done.

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... rkers.aspx
[i]


I’m guessing now we will see big issues with delays and cancellations because there is a markedly higher number of unvaccinated people at AA SWA JBU Alaska than there was at UAL OR DAL even prior to the mandate coming down so this is going to get real bad
 
32andBelow
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:02 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
So it seems the Biden admin is using a funky loop hole of some kind to claim the airlines are government contractors. I’ll be intrigued to see if SWA and DAL cave also. My feeling is they will not. Delta last I saw was at 84-86% anyway

EAS, cares funds, military contracts. How are they not?


If they were wouldn’t this have immediately been a story 3-4 weeks ago when the initial mandate came out? Also most of the employees aren’t directly involved anyway with personal CONTACT with any of those folks. I have to assume this is a loophole because as I said otherwise the airlines all would have realized this a month back
Am I missing something. Where does it say they are being forced? To me this looks like classic industry matching
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:06 am

32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
EAS, cares funds, military contracts. How are they not?


If they were wouldn’t this have immediately been a story 3-4 weeks ago when the initial mandate came out? Also most of the employees aren’t directly involved anyway with personal CONTACT with any of those folks. I have to assume this is a loophole because as I said otherwise the airlines all would have realized this a month back
Am I missing something. Where does it say they are being forced? To me this looks like classic industry matching


I’m not sure what it is lol. Didn’t the initial guidance say weekly testing was fine in the absence of vaccination? The only people that didn’t apply to was actual federal employees working DIRECTLY for the Feds. So I don’t see why AA and JBU had to do this. It seems maybe the just used this as an excuse because they didn’t want to be financially responsible for how much weekly testing cost for 10-20,000 people
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:11 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:

If they were wouldn’t this have immediately been a story 3-4 weeks ago when the initial mandate came out? Also most of the employees aren’t directly involved anyway with personal CONTACT with any of those folks. I have to assume this is a loophole because as I said otherwise the airlines all would have realized this a month back
Am I missing something. Where does it say they are being forced? To me this looks like classic industry matching


I’m not sure what it is lol. Didn’t the initial guidance say weekly testing was fine in the absence of vaccination? The only people that didn’t apply to was actual federal employees working DIRECTLY for the Feds. So I don’t see why AA and JBU had to do this. It seems maybe the just used this as an excuse because they didn’t want to be financially responsible for how much weekly testing cost for 10-20,000 people


The revised OSHA guidance from August emphasizes requiring vaccination as one of the optimal steps to safeguarding workforce populations:

OSHA said getting vaccinated against the coronavirus is "the optimal step" to protect the workplace. The agency encouraged employers to "engage with workers and their representatives to implement multi-layered approaches to protect unvaccinated or otherwise at-risk workers from the coronavirus." OSHA "suggests that employers consider adopting policies that require workers to get vaccinated or to undergo regular COVID-19 testing—in addition to mask wearing and physical distancing—if they remain unvaccinated."

https://www.shrm.org/ResourcesAndTools/ ... rkers.aspx
 
dcajet
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:27 am

jetBlue also joined the list of vaccine-mandating airlines

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-a ... 1633138914

Wondering when Southwest will join the list?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:28 am

LNCS0930 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:

If they were wouldn’t this have immediately been a story 3-4 weeks ago when the initial mandate came out? Also most of the employees aren’t directly involved anyway with personal CONTACT with any of those folks. I have to assume this is a loophole because as I said otherwise the airlines all would have realized this a month back
Am I missing something. Where does it say they are being forced? To me this looks like classic industry matching


I’m not sure what it is lol. Didn’t the initial guidance say weekly testing was fine in the absence of vaccination? The only people that didn’t apply to was actual federal employees working DIRECTLY for the Feds. So I don’t see why AA and JBU had to do this. It seems maybe the just used this as an excuse because they didn’t want to be financially responsible for how much weekly testing cost for 10-20,000 people

I think they just wanted to match United because United did it. The industry matches each other all the time with anything that could be seen as a competitive advantage
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:31 am

dcajet wrote:
jetBlue also joined the list of vaccine-mandating airlines

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-a ... 1633138914

Wondering when Southwest will join the list?


One of them or DAL will probably try to make it only those with direct interaction with federal contractors. So basically Joe Doe who sits at a desk processing invoices all day in Dallas or Atlanta probably won’t have to get vaccinated
 
jetwet1
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:47 am

You're missing the big point, health care expense, last year and to a point this year the Fed has been picking up the bulk of the Covid costs, next year it's on the companies. Starting Jan 1st my company is offering all employees the choice, be vaccinated and covered or be unvaccinated, have mandatory weekly tests at the employees expense and not be covered for any covid related medical expenses.
 
panamair
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Re: American Airlines will terminate unvaccinated US-based staff

Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:35 am

LNCS0930 wrote:

I’m guessing now we will see big issues with delays and cancellations because there is a markedly higher number of unvaccinated people at AA SWA JBU Alaska than there was at UAL OR DAL even prior to the mandate coming down so this is going to get real bad


Not necessarily. This is the argument used constantly to justify why we should not have these mandates. However, the real-world experience at UAL shows that IT WORKS. Heck, despite the well-publicized 593 number at UAL that were going to be terminated, they managed to further get that number down to about 320 within 24 hours after that. When the NY mandate for health care professionals deadline approached, they went from 84% to 92% almost overnight....plenty of examples like these to go around.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:01 am

jetwet1 wrote:
You're missing the big point, health care expense, last year and to a point this year the Fed has been picking up the bulk of the Covid costs, next year it's on the companies. Starting Jan 1st my company is offering all employees the choice, be vaccinated and covered or be unvaccinated, have mandatory weekly tests at the employees expense and not be covered for any covid related medical expenses.


Yep, this is what smart companies have been doing for months already.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:23 am

32andBelow wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
AS is also requiring the vaccine now: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... employees/

I bet the calculus was hard for Alaska. I don’t think the anchorage based crews are gonna take that very well


Why not? And why is there a difference between ANC based crews vs those based anywhere else?
 
11C
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:00 pm

32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
So it seems the Biden admin is using a funky loop hole of some kind to claim the airlines are government contractors. I’ll be intrigued to see if SWA and DAL cave also. My feeling is they will not. Delta last I saw was at 84-86% anyway

EAS, cares funds, military contracts. How are they not?


That would be the “funky loop hole.”
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:18 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
I’m not sure what it is lol. Didn’t the initial guidance say weekly testing was fine in the absence of vaccination? The only people that didn’t apply to was actual federal employees working DIRECTLY for the Feds. So I don’t see why AA and JBU had to do this. It seems maybe the just used this as an excuse because they didn’t want to be financially responsible for how much weekly testing cost for 10-20,000 people

They were separate EOs, but both were signed at the same time on Sept. 9th. One applies to federal employees, the other to federal government contractors. The initial guidance for testing in place of vaccination largely followed federal guidance prior to the EOs, but the EOs being signed changed the requirements across the government. All that happened since then is that the determination was made that airlines qualify as federal government contractors. That determination was likely made after some legal wrangling between government and airline legal councils, but has been made nonetheless.

As for pilots, they maintain FAA medicals, so even if this EO wasn't applicable to airlines, I'm willing to bet the flight surgeons could have imposed this as a condition of maintaining a medical certificate. The pilot groups seem to be the most vocal group on this issue, as they are with most issues, but they're probably going to be required to get it one way or another, assuming they'd like to continue flying. The recent SCOTUS referrals seem to indicate that the court is on the side of mandates, so that's an unlikely avenue out of this.

Federal employees have already been notified that a first dose must be administered by Nov. 9 and be fully vaccinated by Nov. 22. After those dates, those who remain unvaccinated are subject to suspension pending termination. We as a controller group are being incentivised with time off awards through an MOU between the union and FAA, but there will no doubt be some who would rather walk. Perhaps the airlines would be well served to consider similar incentives. If people are still unswayed, then that's a choice they're free to make, assuming they can accept the consequences.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:15 pm

Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:22 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


Seems pretty outdated to me
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:46 pm

That's quite a reach to say "because we have federal contracts, you need a vaccine"

There's no provision that says the mere existence of federal contracts in a company means everyone in the company needs vaccinated. It just says anyone working directly or indirectly on a federal contract. It does say that if you are a non-contractor employee sharing workspace with an eligible contractor, you need vaccinated.
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:18 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
That's quite a reach to say "because we have federal contracts, you need a vaccine"

There's no provision that says the mere existence of federal contracts in a company means everyone in the company needs vaccinated. It just says anyone working directly or indirectly on a federal contract. It does say that if you are a non-contractor employee sharing workspace with an eligible contractor, you need vaccinated.


How much money do the majors get from these contracts? You wonder if they just cancel all of them if it significantly impacts their bottom lines
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:19 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


Seems pretty outdated to me

Length of time since a court decision isn't really relevant, because it's case law. Large portions of the constitution are outdated by some measures, but our entire legal framework is still shaped around it.

smokeybandit wrote:
That's quite a reach to say "because we have federal contracts, you need a vaccine"

There's no provision that says the mere existence of federal contracts in a company means everyone in the company needs vaccinated. It just says anyone working directly or indirectly on a federal contract. It does say that if you are a non-contractor employee sharing workspace with an eligible contractor, you need vaccinated.

Here's the thing though — there are a lot of companies that want vaccine mandates, but didn't want to actually impose the mandate themselves. They're using government mandates as cover. Delta recently said that it cost the company upwards of $40,000 for each covid hospitalization, which is probably in line with the costs associated to other companies, and that's an expense that companies are highly motivated to mitigate. Not only that, but there's the costs associated with leave, workers' comp, disability, etc. Vaccination is a way to dramatically reduce those costs, so simply from the standpoint of the best interests for the company, it's an obvious choice to impose a mandate.

In any event, maybe it is a bit of a reach to label the entire company as contractors, but even if the airlines didn't want to use the mandate as cover, they'd also be put in a potential logistical bind by ensuring only vaccinated employees are fulfilling the roles of government contracts. It would be a lot of effort from a scheduling and administrative perspective. Or they can just vaccinate everyone and skip the extra steps. These contracts are highly lucrative at a time when airlines are amidst a major recovery, not to mention they all just received billions in government aid. It would seem they'd rather risk upsetting a small percentage of the workforce as opposed to biting the hand that feeds them.

United reported yesterday that of its 67,000 employees, fewer than 250 had still declined the vaccine and were at risk of termination. I would expect the result to be largely similar at other airlines, because ultimately very few people are going to give up their careers (and senority) over this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/busi ... &smtyp=cur
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:20 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


Seems pretty outdated to me


If read in the modern day context we find ourselves in, it actually reads as highly relevant and prescient.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:23 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Vaccination is a way to dramatically reduce those costs, so simply from the standpoint of the best interests for the company, it's an obvious choice to impose a mandate.


This is what a lot of people still fail to realize - these decisions are being made by organizations because they are logical, they help them meet their obligations, and they bring clarity to a fluid and complex situation.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:27 pm

dcajet wrote:
jetBlue also joined the list of vaccine-mandating airlines

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-a ... 1633138914

Wondering when Southwest will join the list?


GK has already said Southwest will fully comply to what ever the Mandatory requirements are. They have been doing there own legal evaluation of the Mandate on how it will impact its overall operations and staffing issues.
Now that The White House has set forth a December 8 deadline I’m sure top WN brass are working this weekend in HDQ on the legalities of the implication and will probably address it’s employee on Monday morning when GK gives his weekly employee update.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy
Last edited by wnflyguy on Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:28 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


The decision focused on the state level though, not federal.

It also was regarding a disease that had a 30% death rate and those that did survive commonly had lifelong problems.
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:30 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


The decision focused on the state level though, not federal.

It also was regarding a disease that had a 30% death rate and those that did survive commonly had lifelong problems.


To me this is all a waste of time because the vaccine doesn’t prevent illness, if just mitigates it and it’s effectiveness weakens over time. I can’t see the pilots unions agreeing to boosters. If they try to force that 8-10-12 months from now because we are still not seeing any improvements I’m almost sure there will be pilot strikes
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:32 pm

11C wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
So it seems the Biden admin is using a funky loop hole of some kind to claim the airlines are government contractors. I’ll be intrigued to see if SWA and DAL cave also. My feeling is they will not. Delta last I saw was at 84-86% anyway

EAS, cares funds, military contracts. How are they not?


That would be the “funky loop hole.”


Do you think a carrier will walk away from EAS, military, or government-contracted flying? Go for it - and cut employment by 10% the same day. Through Covid the airline industry has been supported more generously than any other industry in the U.S. relative to contribution to GDP.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16451
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:40 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


The decision focused on the state level though, not federal.

It also was regarding a disease that had a 30% death rate and those that did survive commonly had lifelong problems.


To me this is all a waste of time because the vaccine doesn’t prevent illness, if just mitigates it and it’s effectiveness weakens over time.


This statement is not accurate - preventing hospitalizations and serious illness is a major benefit. It also slows rates of mutations, the higher the % of vaccinated in the population. Unvaccinated who survive the illness can experience debilitating long term effects. Get the facts.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... t-20484859

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... t-20490351
Last edited by Aaron747 on Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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atcsundevil
Moderator
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Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:41 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
To me this is all a waste of time because the vaccine doesn’t prevent illness, if just mitigates it and it’s effectiveness weakens over time. I can’t see the pilots unions agreeing to boosters. If they try to force that 8-10-12 months from now because we are still not seeing any improvements I’m almost sure there will be pilot strikes

It would likely not be a lawful strike, and would therefore not be protected. Unions can strike to protest an unlawful activity on the part of the company, but if the requirements are deemed lawful (which, so far, they have), then the unions would have no right to engage in a strike.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3997
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:09 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

Seems pretty outdated to me


I suppose you are not familiar with the principle of stare decisis.

Once the issue is decided, there is no need to "update" it.
 
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Sig56
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:25 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:57 pm

The rates are likely lower for maintenance and ramp crews since their workforce tends to be far more blue collar and likely more resistant to vaccination than the rest of the workgroups.

Heard that one large ground handler is currently at 40% vaccination rate. With the major labor shortage already occurring I wonder how much worse this will end up being come Dec 8.
 
global1
Posts: 551
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:07 pm

I fully expect, and support,DL making vaccination a condition of employment.

Want to fall on the sword and give up a good job at DL? Be my guest. The relatively small numbers would have many applicants for those positions and filled in 3 shakes of a lamb’s tail.

You could always go to work for a federal or city agency, a healthcare provider, Amazon….opps, mabe not. Your options are very limited. Can’t even count on unemployment.
Last edited by global1 on Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10950
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:12 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
That's quite a reach to say "because we have federal contracts, you need a vaccine"

There's no provision that says the mere existence of federal contracts in a company means everyone in the company needs vaccinated. It just says anyone working directly or indirectly on a federal contract. It does say that if you are a non-contractor employee sharing workspace with an eligible contractor, you need vaccinated.


Yeah, it's just cover. Private companies are allowed to make vaccination a condition of continued employment. It's certainly litigatable whether gov't could force every person physically present in the US to get injected. It's obviously to an employer's advantage to have a fully-vaccinated workforce. But for the fear that employees would quit and work elsewhere, more employers would have issued a mandate already.

United led the pack, and discovered that while, yes, some employees refused the vaccine and will be separated, other people like the idea of working among an entirely-vaccinated workforce.

That was something of a revelation to many employers, so we'll likely see more employer mandates. You may lose Suzie, but Bob will want her job.

In the meantime, the WH mandate (which hasn't actually been fully-implemented) was designed to make employees think that it's going to be inevitable at ANY employer, so they should go ahead and do it.

The health care experience in NYC is instructive. When given a hard inflexible deadline, all but a very-tiny few end up getting vaccinated. This is because it isn't just one thing that causes people not to want it. Some are afraid of needles. Some are afraid of doctors/shots/etc. Some are afraid that they'll experience a bad side effect. Some are perfectly-comfortable getting a shot, but see no imperative to do so, and are the kind of folks that won't do anything unless they absolutely have to or are given a deadline; otherwise, they'll just keep putting it off no matter how easy you make it for them. Most people won't admit to any of these things, so what they say isn't what's really going on in their head, consciously or unconsciously.

The thing about the Delta variant is this: it's so-significantly-contagious that non-N95 masks and distancing are actually of significantly-attenuated benefit as compared to the ancestral strain of the virus. So whereas you needed maybe 30 minutes of exposure within 6 feet, unmasked, with the original strain to have a good chance of getting it, now the thing will find you with much less exposure. It's more-contagious, by a significant degree, than colds, flu, polio, SARS, chickenpox and a host of others. It's not as contagious as measles (which can infect you two floors away in a building -- crazy contagious). But it's contagious-enough that, unlike the ancestral strain, it can come off one contagious patient and find a lot of people. If you're unvaccinated, it really is at this point a question of when, not whether. So the calculus about whether to get the vaccine really now comes down to "Am I likely to get really sick or die from the thing when I get it." Unfortunately, while high-risk groups are well-defined, it is still taking out lots of folks in healthier, non-obvious populations, and you really don't have the ability to know how sick you're gonna get. For most, it is always a very-unpleasant experience that they don't want to repeat and one that, once they have it, cause them to wish they had been vaccinated. The actual group of "asymptomatic" patients was very-very small; most were probably false-positive tests rather than actually asymptomatic infected people. As a broad generalization, if you get this thing, and are otherwise-healthy, you're gonna feel sicker than you ever have.

For myself, at least, the choice was obvious. For others, the crazy-low incidence of side effects from this vaccine, and the almost-complete absence of very-serious side effects should enter into their calculus, but that requires them to have a reliable source of accurate, contextualized, information, something that social media isn't doing a good job of providing.
 
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Pythagoras
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:33 am

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:35 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here is the link to the Supreme Court Case that made mandatory vaccines legal.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/


The decision focused on the state level though, not federal.

It also was regarding a disease that had a 30% death rate and those that did survive commonly had lifelong problems.


To me this is all a waste of time because the vaccine doesn’t prevent illness, if just mitigates it and it’s effectiveness weakens over time. I can’t see the pilots unions agreeing to boosters. If they try to force that 8-10-12 months from now because we are still not seeing any improvements I’m almost sure there will be pilot strikes


I will pass along your comment to my daughter who just caught COVID from a child with asthma and COVID she was evaluating for admission to her ICU. Since she was vaccinated, she only had mild cold and flu symptoms and was out of work for 10 days.

ICU docs and nurses, especially nurses, are at the breaking point from all this. They are seeing patients who are dying only because they have this warped sense that getting vaccinated is a political statement. They are all losing their ability to be compassionate in their care giving.
 
LNCS0930
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Re: Airline Employee Covid Vaccination Rates

Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:50 pm

global1 wrote:
I fully expect, and support,DL making vaccination a condition of employment.

Want to fall on the sword and give up a good job at DL? Be my guest. The relatively small numbers would have many applicants for those positions and filled in 3 shakes of a lamb’s tail.

You could always go to work for a federal or city agency, a healthcare provider, Amazon….opps, mabe not. Your options are very limited. Can’t even count on unemployment.


DL on the chart posted has a huge percent of people vaccinated already. They’d be okay with a mandate if they did if. American seems way lower so I feel they’d have issues. If even 5% don’t abide that screws their op
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