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keesje
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:32 pm

United's A320, 757, and 767 are getting pretty old, on average.

(type, number, age)

- Airbus A320 96 22.9 years
- Boeing 757 72 23 years
- Boeing 767 54 23.8 years

While 777s and A319 fleets aren't getting any younger either

- Airbus A319 66 19.5 years
- Boeing 777 95 17.8 years (incl young 77W's)

https://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Uni ... rlines.htm

It seems United has 370 A321NEO/XLR/ 737-10s on order to replace 61 757's so a general significant upsizing of their NB fleet seems in the cards. With the 120 A321NEOs probably replacing many 767s. Not optimal at all for Uniteds network, but little choice in absense of an NMA. Only 8 787s left on order (787-10s). Something is gonna be ordered / pulled forward there I think.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:43 pm

keesje wrote:
United's A320, 757, and 767 are getting pretty old, on average.

(type, number, age)

- Airbus A320 96 22.9 years
- Boeing 757 72 23 years
- Boeing 767 54 23.8 years

While 777s and A319 fleets aren't getting any younger either

- Airbus A319 66 19.5 years
- Boeing 777 95 17.8 years (incl young 77W's)

https://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Uni ... rlines.htm

It seems United has 370 A321NEO/XLR/ 737-10s on order to replace 61 757's so a general significant upsizing of their NB fleet seems in the cards. With the 120 A321NEOs probably replacing many 767s. Not optimal at all for Uniteds network, but little choice in absense of an NMA. Only 8 787s left on order (787-10s). Something is gonna be ordered / pulled forward there I think.


Everything is two years younger than what it says due to lower covid usage!!

I know UA did the life extension mods to the A319/320 and 767's prior to putting new interiors in both a/c types. Figure 6-7 years to fully depreciate those investments?

A good tell sign of the future of the A319/320 fleet is whether or not they get the new UA interiors with PTV's. If not, there will have to be an order to replace them as you suggest. I'd guess you'll know that by the end of 2022.

On the 767's, that's an age old debate. AA went to the 788+ (or whatever you call the revamped design). UA decided to kick the can down the road by doing the life extension kits. They'll need to make the call in 3 years?
 
Golfmikey
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:54 pm

keesje wrote:
United's A320, 757, and 767 are getting pretty old, on average.

(type, number, age)

- Airbus A320 96 22.9 years
- Boeing 757 72 23 years
- Boeing 767 54 23.8 years

While 777s and A319 fleets aren't getting any younger either

- Airbus A319 66 19.5 years
- Boeing 777 95 17.8 years (incl young 77W's)

https://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Uni ... rlines.htm

It seems United has 370 A321NEO/XLR/ 737-10s on order to replace 61 757's so a general significant upsizing of their NB fleet seems in the cards. With the 120 A321NEOs probably replacing many 767s. Not optimal at all for Uniteds network, but little choice in absense of an NMA. Only 8 787s left on order (787-10s). Something is gonna be ordered / pulled forward there I think.


I think its important to break down the 757 into the two separate groups

757-200 there are 40 of them and much older. i agree the 737 max 8/9/10 and a321neo/xlr are all good replacements for the 752 and older airbus and 738.

757-300 there are 21 of them and much younger. i dont see a clear plane to replace the the 753...seat wise the closest would be the 788 but there are none on order
 
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keesje
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:59 pm

fun2fly wrote:

Everything is two years younger than what it says due to lower covid usage!!

...

They'll need to make the call in 3 years?


You are correct, 2 years of no cycles extends service live :D

I think with the current backlogs, you need to order ~5 yeras in advance to get sufficient deliveries going if you want to replace a type. The United A320 must be getting real worn out.. Seeing the large number of 737-10s and A321 on order and think many will be replaced by bigger aircraft. Possibly creating room for the A220-300 (possibly -500) in the future, IMO. Still lots of 150 seaters required & probably nobody believes they'll order 737-7s or A319NEO's.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:43 pm

United executives as recently as this past summer have discussed keeping the 767s and 772s in service well past their respective 30th birthdays. They've invested in life extension mods and with COVID (especially the PW 77E fleet) resulting in dramatically reduced usage compared to a "normal" year, United likely has kicked widebody replacement needs toward the back half of the decade.
 
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Acey559
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:32 pm

I just came back to the 756 fleet after getting bumped to the Airbus in 2020. Obviously what is being spread around can change or may not be accurate to begin with, but everything we have heard thus far is that the 756 fleet will be around until the middle/end of this decade.

I can't say that the fleet will be fully intact, but at least some of the frames will be on property. They seem to really like the 767 still, especially the high-J 76L. Which is good for me because I love it too. :) I would guess we should know more in a few years if they want to stick to the alleged plan of starting to park them in about 5-6 years.
 
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UPlog
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:54 pm

Regarding older 777 fleet, Kirby in his interview stated he sees the A350 as a replacement towards the end of the decade.
 
Cardude2
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:28 pm

what about the 737-700's and non-er -900's retirement?
 
Cardude2
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:29 pm

also, are the 767-400er still going to be retired by 787-10's, or are they back for good and getting Polaris?
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:39 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
what about the 737-700's and non-er -900's retirement?


The only people who want to retire the 737-700s and standard 737-900s are on this board. The airline wants all the mainline narrowbodies it can get. It's going to fly all the NGs it has at least 'til the end of the MAX and neo deliveries, if not longer.
Last edited by adamblang on Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:40 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
also, are the 767-400er still going to be retired by 787-10's, or are they back for good and getting Polaris?

The 767-400ERs have a place in the network for years to come.
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:19 pm

Golfmikey wrote:
keesje wrote:
United's A320, 757, and 767 are getting pretty old, on average.

(type, number, age)

- Airbus A320 96 22.9 years
- Boeing 757 72 23 years
- Boeing 767 54 23.8 years

While 777s and A319 fleets aren't getting any younger either

- Airbus A319 66 19.5 years
- Boeing 777 95 17.8 years (incl young 77W's)

https://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Uni ... rlines.htm

It seems United has 370 A321NEO/XLR/ 737-10s on order to replace 61 757's so a general significant upsizing of their NB fleet seems in the cards. With the 120 A321NEOs probably replacing many 767s. Not optimal at all for Uniteds network, but little choice in absense of an NMA. Only 8 787s left on order (787-10s). Something is gonna be ordered / pulled forward there I think.


I think its important to break down the 757 into the two separate groups

757-200 there are 40 of them and much older. i agree the 737 max 8/9/10 and a321neo/xlr are all good replacements for the 752 and older airbus and 738.

757-300 there are 21 of them and much younger. i dont see a clear plane to replace the the 753...seat wise the closest would be the 788 but there are none on order

I've been thinking about the generations of aircraft. Back in 2001-03, when airlines were replacing 727's and DC-10's, I'm sure that any upgrade was beneficial, especially because they could skip a generation in technology. CO wasn't replacing 727's with 733's, they were keeping the 733/735 and replacing 727's with 738's. In 2008, it was hard to compare, because with the recession and the fuel price spikes, airlines weren't so much replacing 733's as much as just getting rid of them.

737Max's are unquestionably more efficient than any older generation of 737, but is the jump from 737NG to Max as big as going from 737Classics to NG? It certainly isn't as big as 737NG replacing 727/732's. Is it the lack of effiency jumps that are keeping A320's/early 738/73G's flying longer, or is it just that airlines have so much growth potential that no price of oil can force them to retire 25+ year old planes?
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:38 pm

cosyr wrote:
737Max's are unquestionably more efficient than any older generation of 737, but is the jump from 737NG to Max as big as going from 737Classics to NG? It certainly isn't as big as 737NG replacing 727/732's. Is it the lack of effiency jumps that are keeping A320's/early 738/73G's flying longer, or is it just that airlines have so much growth potential that no price of oil can force them to retire 25+ year old planes?


That's a fair point... going from 727-200 to 737-800 as CO substantially did in the 90s skips a generation (737-300/400 or 757-200) and consequently was more of a quantum leap forward in operating cost: roughly 40% better fuel burn head-to-head, one fewer engine, no FE, etc. 737-800 to MAX 8 is about a 20% fuel burn advantage, but other savings are more incremental in nature,as would be expected between successive generations.
 
airplanedriver6
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:34 am

keesje wrote:
It seems United has 370 A321NEO/XLR/ 737-10s on order to replace 61 757's so a general significant upsizing of their NB fleet seems in the cards.

Yup.

FWIW, with the latest orders UAL's total order book is closer to 500 aircraft (source) and UAL has been very public about the "United Next" plan to up-gauge virtually all domestic operations with ~200 50-seat RJs exiting the fleet on the bottom. The XLR's are apparently not a near-term replacement for the 767s as UAL is completing the nose-to-tail Polaris upgrades on the fleet which presumes UA expects a return on their investment.

United was very opportunistic with both orders and delivery positions at the nadir of the pandemic.
 
Cardude2
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:20 am

What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:28 am

Cardude2 wrote:
What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.


Q400 is out as it is a ‘large RJ’ for the purposes of scope, which is the main reason they were parked previously. They were scope-exempt at CO, but once the pilots were combined they were parked quickly to free scope for E175s.

Time will tell, but if United see a future in small city flying (and recent moves suggest that maybe they don’t?) then the ATR-42 is probably the best option. The ATR wouldn’t be flown in more competitive markets, which will be CRJ550 or larger, but to many small cities it could be ATR or nothing so passengers will adapt. Given current trends, though, I think it’s more likely that cities that can’t support two class RJs will simply be cut.
 
alo2yyz
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:11 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.


Q400 is out as it is a ‘large RJ’ for the purposes of scope, which is the main reason they were parked previously. They were scope-exempt at CO, but once the pilots were combined they were parked quickly to free scope for E175s.

Time will tell, but if United see a future in small city flying (and recent moves suggest that maybe they don’t?) then the ATR-42 is probably the best option. The ATR wouldn’t be flown in more competitive markets, which will be CRJ550 or larger, but to many small cities it could be ATR or nothing so passengers will adapt. Given current trends, though, I think it’s more likely that cities that can’t support two class RJs will simply be cut.


Care to speculate on routes where the -200 is used but appear to be more about distance to hub? e.g., whenever I am on TYS-IAD on UA, it's on a -200. But TYS has far more pax than a place like GRK or AZO (to name a couple of the recent closures). I've always interpreted the use of the 200 as being about frequency & distance to IAD, not demand. Seems like a good ATR or Dash route. I guess upgauging and reduced frequency is in the cards.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:58 am

767-300ER Polaris/PP:
N662UA sked to exit HKG 2699/24Nov in High J Polaris and Premium Economy.
20 of 24 complete (2 in Mod, 2 Stored).
 
Golfmikey
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:37 am

adamblang wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
also, are the 767-400er still going to be retired by 787-10's, or are they back for good and getting Polaris?

The 767-400ERs have a place in the network for years to come.


I hope if they put Polaris in they will put the lower lobe crew rest like delta has
 
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keesje
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:58 am

I've seen cabin upgrades being installed with the aircraft leaving the fleet soon after. In the grand scheme of things, apparently product consistency/ marketing, operational efficiency and fleet strategy changes weigh in & scrapping new cabins happens. After stripping out what can be re-used (galley inserts, IFE components, seat cushions, lavs etc.) Older aircraft being included in fleet wide modifications doesn't guarantee long time service. E.g. UA A320 fleet is also lined up for interior modification, not sure they'll serve for another 8 years after getting those. If they are upgrading cockpits, galleys that another thing.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:42 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
767-300ER Polaris/PP:
N662UA sked to exit HKG 2699/24Nov in High J Polaris and Premium Economy.
20 of 24 complete (2 in Mod, 2 Stored).


I wonder what the delay was? 661 should be done shortly.

Will 657 and 658 be Hi J or standard Polaris?
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:21 pm

keesje wrote:
I've seen cabin upgrades being installed with the aircraft leaving the fleet soon after. In the grand scheme of things, apparently product consistency/ marketing, operational efficiency and fleet strategy changes weigh in & scrapping new cabins happens. After stripping out what can be re-used (galley inserts, IFE components, seat cushions, lavs etc.) Older aircraft being included in fleet wide modifications doesn't guarantee long time service. E.g. UA A320 fleet is also lined up for interior modification, not sure they'll serve for another 8 years after getting those. If they are upgrading cockpits, galleys that another thing.

True, but A320 interior components may be more transferable to new/replacement aircraft. UA would have no problem pulling Y seats off of a retiring 320 and putting them on a new 321NEO. J seat, and even the odd width Y seats on a 767 can't be as easily reused. You might still be right that they are willing to make that investment even with a short lifespan, but I think it is a bigger decision than on most domestic narrowbodies.
 
Cardude2
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:17 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.


Q400 is out as it is a ‘large RJ’ for the purposes of scope, which is the main reason they were parked previously. They were scope-exempt at CO, but once the pilots were combined they were parked quickly to free scope for E175s.

Time will tell, but if United see a future in small city flying (and recent moves suggest that maybe they don’t?) then the ATR-42 is probably the best option. The ATR wouldn’t be flown in more competitive markets, which will be CRJ550 or larger, but to many small cities it could be ATR or nothing so passengers will adapt. Given current trends, though, I think it’s more likely that cities that can’t support two class RJs will simply be cut.


Great insight, thanks!
 
Cardude2
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:41 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.


Q400 is out as it is a ‘large RJ’ for the purposes of scope, which is the main reason they were parked previously. They were scope-exempt at CO, but once the pilots were combined they were parked quickly to free scope for E175s.

Time will tell, but if United see a future in small city flying (and recent moves suggest that maybe they don’t?) then the ATR-42 is probably the best option. The ATR wouldn’t be flown in more competitive markets, which will be CRJ550 or larger, but to many small cities it could be ATR or nothing so passengers will adapt. Given current trends, though, I think it’s more likely that cities that can’t support two class RJs will simply be cut.


Great insight, thanks!


I completely forgot there's a bonus note that Sikorsky is currently using the ATR-42 for the purposes of technology retrofit so it can do single-pilot operations.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/sik ... rgo-plane/
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:08 pm

I don’t see how that is possible. I bet they left the headset splitter in. There’s no way a headset would hang on that panel for even taxi out.

The CRJ has two connections, MIC and Headphone. This requires a cable splitter to be inserted into the AC. Every other plane has a single connection. That would be my guess. The headset is operated by the driver. So for him to leave the headset connected to the airplane makes no sense.
 
MDC862
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:44 pm

Someone didn't follow their check list. Steps for dispatch are spelled out and its "A, B, C..."

Looks like someone will be getting some time off to "reflect" about this
 
alasizon
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:16 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t see how that is possible. I bet they left the headset splitter in. There’s no way a headset would hang on that panel for even taxi out.

The CRJ has two connections, MIC and Headphone. This requires a cable splitter to be inserted into the AC. Every other plane has a single connection. That would be my guess. The headset is operated by the driver. So for him to leave the headset connected to the airplane makes no sense.


Could have been they left the wireless gateway attached if they were using the David Clark wireless headsets (not sure if UA in EWR uses those). We've had a few gateways take flight and arrive at the downline station still attached.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:22 am

alasizon wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t see how that is possible. I bet they left the headset splitter in. There’s no way a headset would hang on that panel for even taxi out.

The CRJ has two connections, MIC and Headphone. This requires a cable splitter to be inserted into the AC. Every other plane has a single connection. That would be my guess. The headset is operated by the driver. So for him to leave the headset connected to the airplane makes no sense.


Could have been they left the wireless gateway attached if they were using the David Clark wireless headsets (not sure if UA in EWR uses those). We've had a few gateways take flight and arrive at the downline station still attached.


Interesting, we don’t have those in my station. If true, that is an unforeseen hazard of that type of equipment. With a corded headset it is darn near impossible to forget that it is plugged in because the yellow bungee cable is always in your way and the headset operator will definitely feel the headset being yanked off their head as they back away.

Not having the cable might make it easier to forgot that something is still attached to the airplane.
 
alasizon
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:25 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t see how that is possible. I bet they left the headset splitter in. There’s no way a headset would hang on that panel for even taxi out.

The CRJ has two connections, MIC and Headphone. This requires a cable splitter to be inserted into the AC. Every other plane has a single connection. That would be my guess. The headset is operated by the driver. So for him to leave the headset connected to the airplane makes no sense.


Could have been they left the wireless gateway attached if they were using the David Clark wireless headsets (not sure if UA in EWR uses those). We've had a few gateways take flight and arrive at the downline station still attached.


Interesting, we don’t have those in my station. If true, that is an unforeseen hazard of that type of equipment. With a corded headset it is darn near impossible to forget that it is plugged in because the yellow bungee cable is always in your way and the headset operator will definitely feel the headset being yanked off their head as they back away.

Not having the cable might make it easier to forgot that something is still attached to the airplane.


Which is exactly why AA makes Mainline teams use an extender attached to the wireless gateway to ensure it isn't forgotten anymore.
 
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keesje
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:09 am

UPlog wrote:
Regarding older 777 fleet, Kirby in his interview stated he sees the A350 as a replacement towards the end of the decade.


That would confirm what they said in the past (2018). But so much has changed, United is probably unsure themselves how markets will look in a few years.

Image
http://veritas-lux.blogspot.com/2018/03/range-of-a350-787-and-777x.html
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:26 pm

keesje wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Regarding older 777 fleet, Kirby in his interview stated he sees the A350 as a replacement towards the end of the decade.


That would confirm what they said in the past (2018). But so much has changed, United is probably unsure themselves how markets will look in a few years.

Image
http://veritas-lux.blogspot.com/2018/03/range-of-a350-787-and-777x.html


That chart from the Airbus marketing team claiming that the A350 is the perfect size always makes me laugh. The difference between the 787-9 and 777-200 in United’s configuration is only 19 seats. It’s not a 40 seat difference.

Let’s also not forget that the number of 787-9s in service worldwide already exceeds the number of 777-200ERs built. 787-9 total orders also exceeds A350-900 orders. While the A359 can replace the 777-200ER, the idea that only the A350-900 can replace the 777-200ER is silly.

I expect United to continue to adjust routes and capacity in its network so that there will be no one for one replacement. After all the 777-200ER fleet was used to replace many 747-400 routes in the late 1990s.
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:49 pm

United Adds Capacity To Three Long Haul Routes In 2022 - Simple Flying

  • EWR-FCO this summer goes from 763s and 764s to 773s
  • IAH-GRU in February and March goes from a 763 to a 772
  • ORD-GRU goes from a mix of 772s and 789s to only 789s
  • SFO-PPT in February adds two weekly frequencies and changes from all 788s to all 789s
 
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keesje
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:08 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
That chart from the Airbus marketing team claiming that the A350 is the perfect size always makes me laugh. The difference between the 787-9 and 777-200 in United’s configuration is only 19 seats. It’s not a 40 seat difference.

Let’s also not forget that the number of 787-9s in service worldwide already exceeds the number of 777-200ERs built. 787-9 total orders also exceeds A350-900 orders. While the A359 can replace the 777-200ER, the idea that only the A350-900 can replace the 777-200ER is silly.

I expect United to continue to adjust routes and capacity in its network so that there will be no one for one replacement. After all the 777-200ER fleet was used to replace many 747-400 routes in the late 1990s.


Heads-up: it's a chart made & presented by United Airlines, why does it make you laugh?

Image
© United Airlines
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:35 pm

keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
That chart from the Airbus marketing team claiming that the A350 is the perfect size always makes me laugh. The difference between the 787-9 and 777-200 in United’s configuration is only 19 seats. It’s not a 40 seat difference.

Let’s also not forget that the number of 787-9s in service worldwide already exceeds the number of 777-200ERs built. 787-9 total orders also exceeds A350-900 orders. While the A359 can replace the 777-200ER, the idea that only the A350-900 can replace the 777-200ER is silly.

I expect United to continue to adjust routes and capacity in its network so that there will be no one for one replacement. After all the 777-200ER fleet was used to replace many 747-400 routes in the late 1990s.


Heads-up: it's a chart made & presented by United Airlines, why does it make you laugh?

Image
© United Airlines


I laugh because the capacities for the 777-200 and 777-300 don’t actually match United’s configuration.

Do you have an actual source for that image?
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:53 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
That chart from the Airbus marketing team claiming that the A350 is the perfect size always makes me laugh. The difference between the 787-9 and 777-200 in United’s configuration is only 19 seats. It’s not a 40 seat difference.

Let’s also not forget that the number of 787-9s in service worldwide already exceeds the number of 777-200ERs built. 787-9 total orders also exceeds A350-900 orders. While the A359 can replace the 777-200ER, the idea that only the A350-900 can replace the 777-200ER is silly.

I expect United to continue to adjust routes and capacity in its network so that there will be no one for one replacement. After all the 777-200ER fleet was used to replace many 747-400 routes in the late 1990s.


Heads-up: it's a chart made & presented by United Airlines, why does it make you laugh?

Image
© United Airlines


I laugh because the capacities for the 777-200 and 777-300 don’t actually match United’s configuration.

Do you have an actual source for that image?


This isn’t the Airbus thread. We don’t need to rehash A350 for the 957th time. Time will tell and then everyone can talk about how they were right later. This is still years away.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:12 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Heads-up: it's a chart made & presented by United Airlines, why does it make you laugh?

Image
© United Airlines


I laugh because the capacities for the 777-200 and 777-300 don’t actually match United’s configuration.

Do you have an actual source for that image?


This isn’t the Airbus thread. We don’t need to rehash A350 for the 957th time. Time will tell and then everyone can talk about how they were right later. This is still years away.


Fair enough. Where the A350 fits in won’t be known for a long time.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 2104
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 pm

I’ve heard from a source that the new Max 9 interior is being finalized and should begin appearing in early 2022 deliveries. I’m glad to hear that as I was worried UA was going to drag its feet just like with the 789s still coming new with the Diamond seats.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:16 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
I don’t see how that is possible. I bet they left the headset splitter in. There’s no way a headset would hang on that panel for even taxi out.

The CRJ has two connections, MIC and Headphone. This requires a cable splitter to be inserted into the AC. Every other plane has a single connection. That would be my guess. The headset is operated by the driver. So for him to leave the headset connected to the airplane makes no sense.


Could have been they left the wireless gateway attached if they were using the David Clark wireless headsets (not sure if UA in EWR uses those). We've had a few gateways take flight and arrive at the downline station still attached.


Interesting, we don’t have those in my station. If true, that is an unforeseen hazard of that type of equipment. With a corded headset it is darn near impossible to forget that it is plugged in because the yellow bungee cable is always in your way and the headset operator will definitely feel the headset being yanked off their head as they back away.

Not having the cable might make it easier to forgot that something is still attached to the airplane.



Yes. Unfortunately the headset splitter & bluetooth adapter (We now use bluetooth adapter on all of our lead boxes - no more wired connections between pushback driver and aircraft) It was left behind after taking off the towbar.
1. The agent after disconnecting the towbar never took the adapter. I guess he forgot.
2. The Lead who was driving the pushback never got the adapter set back from the agent.
Foul-ups on both ends. Ramp 101.

Now we will probably have to show the pilots (during end of dispatch) the adapter set up during salute off. BTW: the adapter setup has a long streamer attached like the bypass pin.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:24 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
That chart from the Airbus marketing team claiming that the A350 is the perfect size always makes me laugh. The difference between the 787-9 and 777-200 in United’s configuration is only 19 seats. It’s not a 40 seat difference.

Let’s also not forget that the number of 787-9s in service worldwide already exceeds the number of 777-200ERs built. 787-9 total orders also exceeds A350-900 orders. While the A359 can replace the 777-200ER, the idea that only the A350-900 can replace the 777-200ER is silly.

I expect United to continue to adjust routes and capacity in its network so that there will be no one for one replacement. After all the 777-200ER fleet was used to replace many 747-400 routes in the late 1990s.


Heads-up: it's a chart made & presented by United Airlines, why does it make you laugh?

Image
© United Airlines


I laugh because the capacities for the 777-200 and 777-300 don’t actually match United’s configuration.

Do you have an actual source for that image?


It's from an investor presentation. Might have been a quarterly earnings review or some industry event. Granted it was a couple years back.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2462
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:37 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.


Q400 is out as it is a ‘large RJ’ for the purposes of scope, which is the main reason they were parked previously. They were scope-exempt at CO, but once the pilots were combined they were parked quickly to free scope for E175s.

Time will tell, but if United see a future in small city flying (and recent moves suggest that maybe they don’t?) then the ATR-42 is probably the best option. The ATR wouldn’t be flown in more competitive markets, which will be CRJ550 or larger, but to many small cities it could be ATR or nothing so passengers will adapt. Given current trends, though, I think it’s more likely that cities that can’t support two class RJs will simply be cut.


Both SBN and FWA can support two class RJ's to ORD on United. Both cities also have Skywest Maintenance bases that can work on all of their RJ's. SBN is also working with United to possibly bring back a DEN flight to allow alternate connections when ORD gets ATC delays and cancellations. F9 is no longer a connecting airline and they were averaging 109 passengers on their 133 seat A319's when they flew the route out of SBN so what airplane would UA use for a daily flight if they even start it at all?
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:51 am

adamblang wrote:
United Adds Capacity To Three Long Haul Routes In 2022 - Simple Flying

  • EWR-FCO this summer goes from 763s and 764s to 773s
  • IAH-GRU in February and March goes from a 763 to a 772
  • ORD-GRU goes from a mix of 772s and 789s to only 789s
  • SFO-PPT in February adds two weekly frequencies and changes from all 788s to all 789s


When UA started PPT, first it was seasonal 3x weekly winter seasonal. Then they upgraded it to year round. Now they are adding 2x more weekly flights. I wonder if the 2 extra flights will stick post February.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5203
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:58 am

Is this confirmed? Per this tweet, UA 767-400s are now confirmed to be getting the Polaris mod sometime before summer 2023.

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1463692407954976770
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 3544
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:10 am

STT757 wrote:
Golfmikey wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
With the 772 GE and 77W fleet running pretty much full bore (except for 1 each in HKG maint), I wouldn't expect N77012 to go into paint soon.
The first couple weeks of December are low periods, maybe then or after the new year is more likely.


Someone at Willis must have been reading this thread it went into ama tonight (11/20) lol


Now that is impressive.


Balls 12 going in for paint had nothing to do with 'Someone at Willis' reading this thread. Paint Audits were started up again this past summer and the aircraft scores drive the paint visits. Many scored worse after their desert stays.
 
gon2fly
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:50 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:20 am

I see 757-300 #854 ferrying ORD-AMA on 26th. Believe this will be the first -300 we might see with new paint.
 
Cmac787
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:50 pm

N17265 737MAX8 has entered SEA induction new delivery F2710/24 Nov
15th MAX delivered. Only 1 more MAX scheduled for delivery this year
 
avi8
Posts: 1441
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:01 pm

How many MAX8 and MAX9 are expected next year?
 
camdawg
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:34 pm

The PPT-SFO adds are past February. It’s seems that they added a new Friday and Sunday flight.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:18 am

freakyrat wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
What do you guys think is going to happen with the CRJ-200's? I think the -700 supply is running down and that's only replacing the e145. My guess since not all of those routes can really be upgaged is ATR 42 (I have checked the de-icing issue will not be a problem) or Q400.


Q400 is out as it is a ‘large RJ’ for the purposes of scope, which is the main reason they were parked previously. They were scope-exempt at CO, but once the pilots were combined they were parked quickly to free scope for E175s.

Time will tell, but if United see a future in small city flying (and recent moves suggest that maybe they don’t?) then the ATR-42 is probably the best option. The ATR wouldn’t be flown in more competitive markets, which will be CRJ550 or larger, but to many small cities it could be ATR or nothing so passengers will adapt. Given current trends, though, I think it’s more likely that cities that can’t support two class RJs will simply be cut.


Both SBN and FWA can support two class RJ's to ORD on United. Both cities also have Skywest Maintenance bases that can work on all of their RJ's. SBN is also working with United to possibly bring back a DEN flight to allow alternate connections when ORD gets ATC delays and cancellations. F9 is no longer a connecting airline and they were averaging 109 passengers on their 133 seat A319's when they flew the route out of SBN so what airplane would UA use for a daily flight if they even start it at all?

Probably 2x CR7, 2x 175, or one of each. Maybe a CR2 added for a 3rd frequency if not a 70+ seater (probably can support 3 70+ seaters or 2 and an A319 if F9 was pretty consistent at 109 pax/day given UAs network in Denver).
 
sfojvjets
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:25 am

rjbesikof wrote:
adamblang wrote:
United Adds Capacity To Three Long Haul Routes In 2022 - Simple Flying

  • EWR-FCO this summer goes from 763s and 764s to 773s
  • IAH-GRU in February and March goes from a 763 to a 772
  • ORD-GRU goes from a mix of 772s and 789s to only 789s
  • SFO-PPT in February adds two weekly frequencies and changes from all 788s to all 789s


When UA started PPT, first it was seasonal 3x weekly winter seasonal. Then they upgraded it to year round. Now they are adding 2x more weekly flights. I wonder if the 2 extra flights will stick post February.

I think the pandemic led to a big bump in demand for premium leisure. We see this on the other side of the network with DBV. I wonder how much of UA's PPT traffic is simply O&D from SFO (I'm guessing the vast majority).
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2462
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:33 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Both SBN and FWA can support two class RJ's to ORD on United. Both cities also have Skywest Maintenance bases that can work on all of their RJ's. SBN is also working with United to possibly bring back a DEN flight to allow alternate connections when ORD gets ATC delays and cancellations. F9 is no longer a connecting airline and they were averaging 109 passengers on their 133 seat A319's when they flew the route out of SBN so what airplane would UA use for a daily flight if they even start it at all?

Probably 2x CR7, 2x 175, or one of each. Maybe a CR2 added for a 3rd frequency if not a 70+ seater (probably can support 3 70+ seaters or 2 and an A319 if F9 was pretty consistent at 109 pax/day given UAs network in Denver).


F9 flew 21,000 passengers each way on 182 A319 flights. They flew 3 times a week. That averages out to about 109 passengers per flight both ways. At an average fare of $118.00 at the time they grossed close to 5 million dollars off those flights. So regardless of what some doomsdayers have said on the Indiana Aviation page local United folks have the data and figure that they could profitably operate 2 daily E175 flights to DEN and offer alternative connections to ORD. They can still fly a few CR7's to ORD and make those profitable and get rid of the CR2's. If UA would use a Skywest CR7 for the late evening and early morning flight this would allow for overnight maintenance and save Skywest from ferrying an empty airplane in.

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