Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
clrd4t8koff wrote:Why is TLH so underserved compared to smaller markets like Amarillo, TX or Appleton, WI?
Polot wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Why is TLH so underserved compared to smaller markets like Amarillo, TX or Appleton, WI?
TLH bleeds traffic to JAX and PNS, and is neither a major tourist or business destination.
clrd4t8koff wrote:Polot wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Why is TLH so underserved compared to smaller markets like Amarillo, TX or Appleton, WI?
TLH bleeds traffic to JAX and PNS, and is neither a major tourist or business destination.
So that makes it all the more confusing. If TLH is closing in on 1-million passengers *and* bleeding passengers to JAX & ECP, then TLH realistically has over 1-million total passengers. TLH is def not a place one would call a tourist destination, but just shy of 1-million passengers annually is making it some sort of destination, which I would argue is business driven from being the Capital and having 2 large universities (FSU & FAMU) plus a large state college (Tallahassee State College).
To my last point - AMA & ATW are neither tourist nor business destinations and much smaller but receive more service. Doesn’t make sense.
lightsaber wrote:It looks like this small market is heavily dominated by AA with flights to Charlotte, DFW, Miami, and Washington DC.
Delta flies mainline and regional to Atlanta.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaha ... al_Airport
clrd4t8koff wrote:Didn’t feel like they even tried to compete considering AA Eagle operates TLH-DFW 3x daily with larger equipment and more convenient schedules throughout the day.
clrd4t8koff wrote:An airport that’s closing in on 1-million passengers annually that only gets service on DL & AA to hubs on CR7/9’s predominantly with a few flights a week on Silver Airways to TPA seems very underserved.
clrd4t8koff wrote:Comparatively - How can markets like AMA, which the MSA is almost 125k smaller and sees over 200k less passengers annually support mainline service on AA, G4 and WN?
Polot wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Polot wrote:TLH bleeds traffic to JAX and PNS, and is neither a major tourist or business destination.
So that makes it all the more confusing. If TLH is closing in on 1-million passengers *and* bleeding passengers to JAX & ECP, then TLH realistically has over 1-million total passengers. TLH is def not a place one would call a tourist destination, but just shy of 1-million passengers annually is making it some sort of destination, which I would argue is business driven from being the Capital and having 2 large universities (FSU & FAMU) plus a large state college (Tallahassee State College).
To my last point - AMA & ATW are neither tourist nor business destinations and much smaller but receive more service. Doesn’t make sense.
The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
Polot wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Polot wrote:TLH bleeds traffic to JAX and PNS, and is neither a major tourist or business destination.
So that makes it all the more confusing. If TLH is closing in on 1-million passengers *and* bleeding passengers to JAX & ECP, then TLH realistically has over 1-million total passengers. TLH is def not a place one would call a tourist destination, but just shy of 1-million passengers annually is making it some sort of destination, which I would argue is business driven from being the Capital and having 2 large universities (FSU & FAMU) plus a large state college (Tallahassee State College).
To my last point - AMA & ATW are neither tourist nor business destinations and much smaller but receive more service. Doesn’t make sense.
The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
MIflyer12 wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Comparatively - How can markets like AMA, which the MSA is almost 125k smaller and sees over 200k less passengers annually support mainline service on AA, G4 and WN?
AMA is a lot more remote than TLH. There isn't much within 300 miles of AMA. For a lot of TLH trip destinations the overwhelming competition is a car, and planes often lose out to cars for journeys under 300 miles.
Underserved is a ridiculous, moronic airport management term. Yeah, the ten largest airlines in America, domestically fully deregulated for nearly forty years, each with at least sixty mainline aircraft -- they're all doing it wrong!
Polot wrote:lightsaber wrote:It looks like this small market is heavily dominated by AA with flights to Charlotte, DFW, Miami, and Washington DC.
Delta flies mainline and regional to Atlanta.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaha ... al_Airport
Although it’s been a few years since I lived there I’d say DL is the main airline in town, AA by no means heavily dominates. AA has more destinations thanks to US merger but there is a lot of loyalty to DL and their near hourly ATL service (at least pre covid), especially with them using mainline (which use to see practically every narrow body that DL had minus 757/739/A321s, but I think in recent years has tended more to 717s especially with MD retirements).
MIflyer12 wrote:Gee, it's a 70-80 minute flight to the biggest hub in the country and non-stops onward to 180+ destinations. CLT is pretty good, too.
Ask what IAH brings, relevant to TLH travelers, that ATL and CLT don't. What are the ten largest O&D markets to/from TLH? (Not enplanements - O&D.)
clrd4t8koff wrote:Polot wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:
So that makes it all the more confusing. If TLH is closing in on 1-million passengers *and* bleeding passengers to JAX & ECP, then TLH realistically has over 1-million total passengers. TLH is def not a place one would call a tourist destination, but just shy of 1-million passengers annually is making it some sort of destination, which I would argue is business driven from being the Capital and having 2 large universities (FSU & FAMU) plus a large state college (Tallahassee State College).
To my last point - AMA & ATW are neither tourist nor business destinations and much smaller but receive more service. Doesn’t make sense.
The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
I get TLH is not a tourist destination and I’m in agreement with you about that. But whether it’s a tourist destination or a business destination airlines are after one thing - traffic - which TLH has a respectable size traffic base yet is batting way below markets that also aren’t tourist destinations (AMA and ATW as examples) and are receiving way more service.
If I’m an airline like G4 (or any airline for that matter) and I see AMA with 675k annual passengers or ATW with 400k annual passengers and then TLH with 875k annual passengers why would I launch AMA or ATW when my propensity to fill planes is higher at TLH? G4 isn’t all leisure market focused. Their new(ish) IND-BOS route is an example of their expanded strategy. TLH-FLL/DEN/MDW/LAS on an A319 2-3x week are all examples of routes that would work.
FLALEFTY wrote:Polot wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:
So that makes it all the more confusing. If TLH is closing in on 1-million passengers *and* bleeding passengers to JAX & ECP, then TLH realistically has over 1-million total passengers. TLH is def not a place one would call a tourist destination, but just shy of 1-million passengers annually is making it some sort of destination, which I would argue is business driven from being the Capital and having 2 large universities (FSU & FAMU) plus a large state college (Tallahassee State College).
To my last point - AMA & ATW are neither tourist nor business destinations and much smaller but receive more service. Doesn’t make sense.
The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
JAX is 2 1/2 hours drive time from TLH and ECP is a 2 hour drive, so I doubt too much traffic from Tallahassee is bleeding in those directions.
I used to fly in and out of TLH frequently on business and learned that the airline that is granted the state government's air travel contract tends to dominate that market. I imagine UA Express (Skywest) decided they were at a disadvantage flying to IAH when competing with AA/Eagle (who I believe has the current state contract) which offers more frequent flights to 3 hubs - CLT, DFW and MIA. Also, DL still flies limited mainline (usually B717's), along with Endeavor's CR9 flights to ATL.
CitrusCritter wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:Polot wrote:The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
JAX is 2 1/2 hours drive time from TLH and ECP is a 2 hour drive, so I doubt too much traffic from Tallahassee is bleeding in those directions.
I used to fly in and out of TLH frequently on business and learned that the airline that is granted the state government's air travel contract tends to dominate that market. I imagine UA Express (Skywest) decided they were at a disadvantage flying to IAH when competing with AA/Eagle (who I believe has the current state contract) which offers more frequent flights to 3 hubs - CLT, DFW and MIA. Also, DL still flies limited mainline (usually B717's), along with Endeavor's CR9 flights to ATL.
There's no longer a state air service contract. State employees can fly either of the options. United has never been a player in TLH and this meager effort failing is unsurprising. For years, United "served" Tallahassee by connecting with Silver in TPA or MCO. The idea that they can't sustain a few IAH flights is laughable; they simply haven't tried. TLH is dominated by DL, but I think AA's level of service is increasing their market share. The last business trip I took out of TLH, I flew AA to DFW to go west instead of going through ATL on DL. The E-170s are nice planes to ride on.
The bleed in Tallahassee to JAX and ECP (not PNS as OP said) is primarily vacation traffic. Very little business traffic bleeds out. In fact, I'd say if there is any business traffic bleeding to JAX/ECP, it's United FFs headed to Tallahassee. And if there were say a few B6 E-190s to MCO/FLL per day, they'd stop a good portion of the vacation bleed, which is primarily to those airports for WN service.
sxf24 wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:
JAX is 2 1/2 hours drive time from TLH and ECP is a 2 hour drive, so I doubt too much traffic from Tallahassee is bleeding in those directions.
I used to fly in and out of TLH frequently on business and learned that the airline that is granted the state government's air travel contract tends to dominate that market. I imagine UA Express (Skywest) decided they were at a disadvantage flying to IAH when competing with AA/Eagle (who I believe has the current state contract) which offers more frequent flights to 3 hubs - CLT, DFW and MIA. Also, DL still flies limited mainline (usually B717's), along with Endeavor's CR9 flights to ATL.
There's no longer a state air service contract. State employees can fly either of the options. United has never been a player in TLH and this meager effort failing is unsurprising. For years, United "served" Tallahassee by connecting with Silver in TPA or MCO. The idea that they can't sustain a few IAH flights is laughable; they simply haven't tried. TLH is dominated by DL, but I think AA's level of service is increasing their market share. The last business trip I took out of TLH, I flew AA to DFW to go west instead of going through ATL on DL. The E-170s are nice planes to ride on.
The bleed in Tallahassee to JAX and ECP (not PNS as OP said) is primarily vacation traffic. Very little business traffic bleeds out. In fact, I'd say if there is any business traffic bleeding to JAX/ECP, it's United FFs headed to Tallahassee. And if there were say a few B6 E-190s to MCO/FLL per day, they'd stop a good portion of the vacation bleed, which is primarily to those airports for WN service.
AA carries more passengers than DL out of TLH.
CitrusCritter wrote:sxf24 wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:
There's no longer a state air service contract. State employees can fly either of the options. United has never been a player in TLH and this meager effort failing is unsurprising. For years, United "served" Tallahassee by connecting with Silver in TPA or MCO. The idea that they can't sustain a few IAH flights is laughable; they simply haven't tried. TLH is dominated by DL, but I think AA's level of service is increasing their market share. The last business trip I took out of TLH, I flew AA to DFW to go west instead of going through ATL on DL. The E-170s are nice planes to ride on.
The bleed in Tallahassee to JAX and ECP (not PNS as OP said) is primarily vacation traffic. Very little business traffic bleeds out. In fact, I'd say if there is any business traffic bleeding to JAX/ECP, it's United FFs headed to Tallahassee. And if there were say a few B6 E-190s to MCO/FLL per day, they'd stop a good portion of the vacation bleed, which is primarily to those airports for WN service.
AA carries more passengers than DL out of TLH.
That doesn't surprise me if that has changed given the different destinations and levels of service AA has been offering the past several years. I'd be curious to know what FF market share is like - TLH has been a very loyal DL market for a long time, dating back to when state employees went out of their way to justify not using the state contract granted to FL so that they could keep their DL FF benefits.
AA has done a good job for TLH. Several different options for connecting flights. I never flew for work enough to worry about FF status, so I switched from DL to AA based on the flights. Being able to go through CLT if going north/east or DFW if going west was great versus everything going to ATL. And AA was using a lot of E170s, which were the nicest plane options regularly available IMO.
FlyingElvii wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Polot wrote:The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
I get TLH is not a tourist destination and I’m in agreement with you about that. But whether it’s a tourist destination or a business destination airlines are after one thing - traffic - which TLH has a respectable size traffic base yet is batting way below markets that also aren’t tourist destinations (AMA and ATW as examples) and are receiving way more service.
If I’m an airline like G4 (or any airline for that matter) and I see AMA with 675k annual passengers or ATW with 400k annual passengers and then TLH with 875k annual passengers why would I launch AMA or ATW when my propensity to fill planes is higher at TLH? G4 isn’t all leisure market focused. Their new(ish) IND-BOS route is an example of their expanded strategy. TLH-FLL/DEN/MDW/LAS on an A319 2-3x week are all examples of routes that would work.
The Appleton area has three Fortune 1,000 HQ’d within 45 minute drive, as well as the North American HQ for Kimberley-Clark, it can support a lot of biz traffic, even in these times. It is a vacation gateway to the lakes and the Northwoods, and the area is home to a couple of very large worldwide events.
While the area may only be average economically, there is a LOT of wealth in the area, and I mean A LOT…
It is a very different market than Tallahassee.
sxf24 wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:sxf24 wrote:
AA carries more passengers than DL out of TLH.
That doesn't surprise me if that has changed given the different destinations and levels of service AA has been offering the past several years. I'd be curious to know what FF market share is like - TLH has been a very loyal DL market for a long time, dating back to when state employees went out of their way to justify not using the state contract granted to FL so that they could keep their DL FF benefits.
AA has done a good job for TLH. Several different options for connecting flights. I never flew for work enough to worry about FF status, so I switched from DL to AA based on the flights. Being able to go through CLT if going north/east or DFW if going west was great versus everything going to ATL. And AA was using a lot of E170s, which were the nicest plane options regularly available IMO.
It doesn’t matter what the FF share is if the traffic shows a different pattern.
CitrusCritter wrote:sxf24 wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:
That doesn't surprise me if that has changed given the different destinations and levels of service AA has been offering the past several years. I'd be curious to know what FF market share is like - TLH has been a very loyal DL market for a long time, dating back to when state employees went out of their way to justify not using the state contract granted to FL so that they could keep their DL FF benefits.
AA has done a good job for TLH. Several different options for connecting flights. I never flew for work enough to worry about FF status, so I switched from DL to AA based on the flights. Being able to go through CLT if going north/east or DFW if going west was great versus everything going to ATL. And AA was using a lot of E170s, which were the nicest plane options regularly available IMO.
It doesn’t matter what the FF share is if the traffic shows a different pattern.
No reason to get defensive. I didn't challenge what you said. I posed a question as part of a discussion about whether AA was growing more off of a FF base or more casual travelers.
CitrusCritter wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:Polot wrote:The only difference is the presence of G4. TLH is not a tourist destination and most of that traffic bleed is leisure pax so G4 doesn’t want to serve the airport. Not helping is that many residents driving to JAX often have friends or family in JAX and PNS so it is not always about raw price.
AMA has WN but that is mostly because of historical reasons (WN starting out as an intraTexas carrier)-WN serves a lot of small cities in Texas that they would never start today or serve if outside the state.
JAX is 2 1/2 hours drive time from TLH and ECP is a 2 hour drive, so I doubt too much traffic from Tallahassee is bleeding in those directions.
I used to fly in and out of TLH frequently on business and learned that the airline that is granted the state government's air travel contract tends to dominate that market. I imagine UA Express (Skywest) decided they were at a disadvantage flying to IAH when competing with AA/Eagle (who I believe has the current state contract) which offers more frequent flights to 3 hubs - CLT, DFW and MIA. Also, DL still flies limited mainline (usually B717's), along with Endeavor's CR9 flights to ATL.
There's no longer a state air service contract. State employees can fly either of the options. United has never been a player in TLH and this meager effort failing is unsurprising. For years, United "served" Tallahassee by connecting with Silver in TPA or MCO. The idea that they can't sustain a few IAH flights is laughable; they simply haven't tried. TLH is dominated by DL, but I think AA's level of service is increasing their market share. The last business trip I took out of TLH, I flew AA to DFW to go west instead of going through ATL on DL. The E-170s are nice planes to ride on.
The bleed in Tallahassee to JAX and ECP (not PNS as OP said) is primarily vacation traffic. Very little business traffic bleeds out. In fact, I'd say if there is any business traffic bleeding to JAX/ECP, it's United FFs headed to Tallahassee. And if there were say a few B6 E-190s to MCO/FLL per day, they'd stop a good portion of the vacation bleed, which is primarily to those airports for WN service.
clrd4t8koff wrote:They launched TLH-IAH in late Nov. 2020 with 1x daily CRJ service departing around 5pm. Didn’t feel like they even tried to compete considering AA Eagle operates TLH-DFW 3x daily with larger equipment and more convenient schedules throughout the day.
Polot wrote:lightsaber wrote:It looks like this small market is heavily dominated by AA with flights to Charlotte, DFW, Miami, and Washington DC.
Delta flies mainline and regional to Atlanta.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaha ... al_Airport
Although it’s been a few years since I lived there I’d say DL is the main airline in town, AA by no means heavily dominates. AA has more destinations thanks to US merger but there is a lot of loyalty to DL and their near hourly ATL service (at least pre covid), especially with them using mainline (which use to see practically every narrow body that DL had minus 757/739/A321s, but I think in recent years has tended more to 717s especially with MD retirements).
Boof02671 wrote:Polot wrote:lightsaber wrote:It looks like this small market is heavily dominated by AA with flights to Charlotte, DFW, Miami, and Washington DC.
Delta flies mainline and regional to Atlanta.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaha ... al_Airport
Although it’s been a few years since I lived there I’d say DL is the main airline in town, AA by no means heavily dominates. AA has more destinations thanks to US merger but there is a lot of loyalty to DL and their near hourly ATL service (at least pre covid), especially with them using mainline (which use to see practically every narrow body that DL had minus 757/739/A321s, but I think in recent years has tended more to 717s especially with MD retirements).
AA carries more passengers at TLH than DL. DL only serves one city.
clrd4t8koff wrote:FlyingElvii wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:
I get TLH is not a tourist destination and I’m in agreement with you about that. But whether it’s a tourist destination or a business destination airlines are after one thing - traffic - which TLH has a respectable size traffic base yet is batting way below markets that also aren’t tourist destinations (AMA and ATW as examples) and are receiving way more service.
If I’m an airline like G4 (or any airline for that matter) and I see AMA with 675k annual passengers or ATW with 400k annual passengers and then TLH with 875k annual passengers why would I launch AMA or ATW when my propensity to fill planes is higher at TLH? G4 isn’t all leisure market focused. Their new(ish) IND-BOS route is an example of their expanded strategy. TLH-FLL/DEN/MDW/LAS on an A319 2-3x week are all examples of routes that would work.
The Appleton area has three Fortune 1,000 HQ’d within 45 minute drive, as well as the North American HQ for Kimberley-Clark, it can support a lot of biz traffic, even in these times. It is a vacation gateway to the lakes and the Northwoods, and the area is home to a couple of very large worldwide events.
While the area may only be average economically, there is a LOT of wealth in the area, and I mean A LOT…
It is a very different market than Tallahassee.
Hey that’s great ATW has three Fortune 1,000 HQ’d within 45 minute drive, as well as the North American HQ for Kimberley-Clark as well as a gateway to the lakes and Northwoods, but still doesn’t change the fact ATW has almost 500k less annual passengers than TLH. So that doesn’t really answer anything.
Boof02671 wrote:Polot wrote:lightsaber wrote:It looks like this small market is heavily dominated by AA with flights to Charlotte, DFW, Miami, and Washington DC.
Delta flies mainline and regional to Atlanta.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallaha ... al_Airport
Although it’s been a few years since I lived there I’d say DL is the main airline in town, AA by no means heavily dominates. AA has more destinations thanks to US merger but there is a lot of loyalty to DL and their near hourly ATL service (at least pre covid), especially with them using mainline (which use to see practically every narrow body that DL had minus 757/739/A321s, but I think in recent years has tended more to 717s especially with MD retirements).
AA carries more passengers at TLH than DL. DL only serves one city.
Cubsrule wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Comparatively - How can markets like AMA, which the MSA is almost 125k smaller and sees over 200k less passengers annually support mainline service on AA, G4 and WN?
AMA is a lot more remote than TLH. There isn't much within 300 miles of AMA. For a lot of TLH trip destinations the overwhelming competition is a car, and planes often lose out to cars for journeys under 300 miles.
Underserved is a ridiculous, moronic airport management term. Yeah, the ten largest airlines in America, domestically fully deregulated for nearly forty years, each with at least sixty mainline aircraft -- they're all doing it wrong!
Agreed. It’s also important to remember that much demand to Tallahassee is intrastate, and flying isn’t meaningfully competitive for that demand even though the distances to MCO and points south are sufficient that with different geography and/or service patterns people might fly.
hpff wrote:Also the above chart shows TLH is far from "closing in on a million." They were at less than half that in 2019.
hohd wrote:UA should have launched TLH-EWR and will do better than IAH. New York area has lots of traffic and EWR is a major international airport with extensive international connections, far more than ATL, DFW or even MIA and will have no nonstop competition to the NY area. If UA comes back (to EWR) they should do at least 2x day for the sector to succeed
FLALEFTY wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:
JAX is 2 1/2 hours drive time from TLH and ECP is a 2 hour drive, so I doubt too much traffic from Tallahassee is bleeding in those directions.
I used to fly in and out of TLH frequently on business and learned that the airline that is granted the state government's air travel contract tends to dominate that market. I imagine UA Express (Skywest) decided they were at a disadvantage flying to IAH when competing with AA/Eagle (who I believe has the current state contract) which offers more frequent flights to 3 hubs - CLT, DFW and MIA. Also, DL still flies limited mainline (usually B717's), along with Endeavor's CR9 flights to ATL.
There's no longer a state air service contract. State employees can fly either of the options. United has never been a player in TLH and this meager effort failing is unsurprising. For years, United "served" Tallahassee by connecting with Silver in TPA or MCO. The idea that they can't sustain a few IAH flights is laughable; they simply haven't tried. TLH is dominated by DL, but I think AA's level of service is increasing their market share. The last business trip I took out of TLH, I flew AA to DFW to go west instead of going through ATL on DL. The E-170s are nice planes to ride on.
The bleed in Tallahassee to JAX and ECP (not PNS as OP said) is primarily vacation traffic. Very little business traffic bleeds out. In fact, I'd say if there is any business traffic bleeding to JAX/ECP, it's United FFs headed to Tallahassee. And if there were say a few B6 E-190s to MCO/FLL per day, they'd stop a good portion of the vacation bleed, which is primarily to those airports for WN service.
Go to page 30 & 31 of this document and you will see that there was a state-contracted airline agreement as recent as 2019. The legislature modified this in 2021 with a weasel-worded passage in the Statue governing state travel that says basically, while you can use whatever airline you wish, their fares must be within guidelines of each agency's travel budget. US Airways used to have this contract and I believe it passed over to AA after they merged. While state employees could still fly on say, Delta, or Silver, they had to get additional paperwork approved justifying it. The recent changes eliminated this additional paperwork.
http://www.floridahealth.gov/provider-a ... g.2019.pdf
I would wonder about the sanity of Tally vacation travelers choosing to drive the (awful) 2, to 2 1/2-hour drives to either JAX or ECP to save a few bucks on airfare.
sxf24 wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:sxf24 wrote:
It doesn’t matter what the FF share is if the traffic shows a different pattern.
No reason to get defensive. I didn't challenge what you said. I posed a question as part of a discussion about whether AA was growing more off of a FF base or more casual travelers.
I’m stating facts, not opinions.
hpff wrote:Also the above chart shows TLH is far from "closing in on a million." They were at less than half that in 2019. UA simply can't make a fairly minor outstation work once a day in 2021, doesn't seem that surprising.
CitrusCritter wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:
There's no longer a state air service contract. State employees can fly either of the options. United has never been a player in TLH and this meager effort failing is unsurprising. For years, United "served" Tallahassee by connecting with Silver in TPA or MCO. The idea that they can't sustain a few IAH flights is laughable; they simply haven't tried. TLH is dominated by DL, but I think AA's level of service is increasing their market share. The last business trip I took out of TLH, I flew AA to DFW to go west instead of going through ATL on DL. The E-170s are nice planes to ride on.
The bleed in Tallahassee to JAX and ECP (not PNS as OP said) is primarily vacation traffic. Very little business traffic bleeds out. In fact, I'd say if there is any business traffic bleeding to JAX/ECP, it's United FFs headed to Tallahassee. And if there were say a few B6 E-190s to MCO/FLL per day, they'd stop a good portion of the vacation bleed, which is primarily to those airports for WN service.
Go to page 30 & 31 of this document and you will see that there was a state-contracted airline agreement as recent as 2019. The legislature modified this in 2021 with a weasel-worded passage in the Statue governing state travel that says basically, while you can use whatever airline you wish, their fares must be within guidelines of each agency's travel budget. US Airways used to have this contract and I believe it passed over to AA after they merged. While state employees could still fly on say, Delta, or Silver, they had to get additional paperwork approved justifying it. The recent changes eliminated this additional paperwork.
http://www.floridahealth.gov/provider-a ... g.2019.pdf
I would wonder about the sanity of Tally vacation travelers choosing to drive the (awful) 2, to 2 1/2-hour drives to either JAX or ECP to save a few bucks on airfare.
That DOH document is simply referencing a state contract, if one exists. But in this case, it doesn't. A search of the Vendor Bid System finds that the last competitive solicitation for air travel was in 2007. The Scott administration was so anti-air travel, it would have been pointless to have even solicited one. It was nearly impossible to get air travel approved and many requests for air travel had to be vetted through the Governor's Office directly for several years.
MIflyer12 wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Gee, it's a 70-80 minute flight to the biggest hub in the country and non-stops onward to 180+ destinations. CLT is pretty good, too.
Ask what IAH brings, relevant to TLH travelers, that ATL and CLT don't. What are the ten largest O&D markets to/from TLH? (Not enplanements - O&D.)
clrd4t8koff wrote:To my last point - AMA & ATW are neither tourist nor business destinations and much smaller but receive more service. Doesn’t make sense.
keithvh2001 wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Gee, it's a 70-80 minute flight to the biggest hub in the country and non-stops onward to 180+ destinations. CLT is pretty good, too.
Ask what IAH brings, relevant to TLH travelers, that ATL and CLT don't. What are the ten largest O&D markets to/from TLH? (Not enplanements - O&D.)
Wouldn't that logic also hold for a whole bunch of smaller markets in the South? JAN, MGM, MOB, MLU, SHV, AEX, GPT (just to name a few).
I know IAH isn't the greatest connecting spot in the world ---- but there's a lot of potential traffic from these markets in aggregate, and UA should try to fight for it. I find this TLH move weird, because if they give them up, why not give up on all the markets like them?
keithvh2001 wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:clrd4t8koff wrote:Gee, it's a 70-80 minute flight to the biggest hub in the country and non-stops onward to 180+ destinations. CLT is pretty good, too.
Ask what IAH brings, relevant to TLH travelers, that ATL and CLT don't. What are the ten largest O&D markets to/from TLH? (Not enplanements - O&D.)
Wouldn't that logic also hold for a whole bunch of smaller markets in the South? JAN, MGM, MOB, MLU, SHV, AEX, GPT (just to name a few).
I know IAH isn't the greatest connecting spot in the world ---- but there's a lot of potential traffic from these markets in aggregate, and UA should try to fight for it. I find this TLH move weird, because if they give them up, why not give up on all the markets like them?
NLINK wrote:We will see more of these small cities that United services (by small I mean market share by UA, not city size) with the 50 seat RJ's cut since UA is planning to retire all 50 seat single class RJ's in the near future. Back in the 1998/99/2000 CO also tried a lot of these markets such to IAH such as CHA, TLH and a few other ones and they didn't work then either with a 50 seat plane. At that time Delta and US Airways was too large to really compete against. NWA did decent (never great) to Memphis in these markets because it was closer. The 3 bank hub was just to few frequencies (short lived 4 bank) for most business travelers.
FLALEFTY wrote:CitrusCritter wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:
Go to page 30 & 31 of this document and you will see that there was a state-contracted airline agreement as recent as 2019. The legislature modified this in 2021 with a weasel-worded passage in the Statue governing state travel that says basically, while you can use whatever airline you wish, their fares must be within guidelines of each agency's travel budget. US Airways used to have this contract and I believe it passed over to AA after they merged. While state employees could still fly on say, Delta, or Silver, they had to get additional paperwork approved justifying it. The recent changes eliminated this additional paperwork.
http://www.floridahealth.gov/provider-a ... g.2019.pdf
I would wonder about the sanity of Tally vacation travelers choosing to drive the (awful) 2, to 2 1/2-hour drives to either JAX or ECP to save a few bucks on airfare.
That DOH document is simply referencing a state contract, if one exists. But in this case, it doesn't. A search of the Vendor Bid System finds that the last competitive solicitation for air travel was in 2007. The Scott administration was so anti-air travel, it would have been pointless to have even solicited one. It was nearly impossible to get air travel approved and many requests for air travel had to be vetted through the Governor's Office directly for several years.
Here's an interesting tidbit. FL Gov. DeSantis now has a brand-new, state-financed, Textron Cessna Citation Latitude to serve as the state's (his) plane.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/32 ... llahassee/
He was previously using a Beech King Air that was registered to the state's FDLE:
https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politi ... ate-plane/