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avier
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:05 am

BawliBooch wrote:
In a country like India, a state owned airline, especially a domestic airline, can be a useful way to dispense favors to friends. Also the need to connect far flung areas of the country to Delhi makes political and administrative sense. IndianAirlines did that in its day connecting all State capitals to Delhi with daily Jet flights. I doubt the Govt is going let go off either easily. Plus, a state owned airline gives the Govt the ability to respond quickly(and cheaply) to calamities or war like situations.

If the govt decides to scale up Alliance Air to another pan-India domestic carrier, they'll be back to square one : that is end up with another loss making AI in their hands.

Alliance has been kept mostly to foray into the new regional cites and the upcoming new airports in Tier3 towns, under UDAN. Other pvt airlines typically won't fly to such new towns due to lack of any real traffic data and would wait for another airline to enter and grow the market. And once enough data is available on traffic patterns, they'd decide to fly (or not) to those small towns. So Alliance would do the job of being the pioneer in these new markets and help build the market/routes. Their recent such adds were Bilaspur and very recently Sindhudurg. The other talk for the need of a govt airline was; of older AI employees that may not get retained post takeover, will get absorbed by Alliance.

Your reference to IC days, of connecting state capitals or far flung areas to DEL, doesn't hold much relevance today as 6E is doing that job with extremely high frequencies. So no need to have another pan-India govt airline to fill any gaps in the network at the national capital atleast. Today DEL is the hotspot for every pvt airline. Beyond DEL, like said above, govt just has to promote the new tier3 airports to pvt airlines by showing Alliance flying there.
 
hohd
Posts: 1137
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:17 pm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 905133.cms

Alliance air will also be sold according to a report. May be Spice jet will get this as a consolation.

As far as Indigo goes, they were a thorn in everybody's way - Jet, Kingfisher, AI, Spicejet, even regionals, and used capacity dumping to a new level.
 
avier
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:13 pm

hohd wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/after-air-india-govt-set-to-sell-alliance-air-under-asset-disposal-programme/articleshow/86905133.cms

Alliance air will also be sold according to a report. May be Spice jet will get this as a consolation.

As far as Indigo goes, they were a thorn in everybody's way - Jet, Kingfisher, AI, Spicejet, even regionals, and used capacity dumping to a new level.

Then that's excellent news. I wonder how I missed this headline. Seems like the govt has changed it's stance on holding to this tiny subsidiary airline, for whatever reasons they earlier wanted to hold on to.

Hope they get into the right hands, something like the calibre of TATA's. Just hopefully not to IndiGo, for obvious reasons. Spice has Q400's already, so doesn't make sense. And defo no to the Hyderabad or the other sim owner airline, considering they can't keep their own ship afloat.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:53 am

Fleet Movement in India October 15, 2021
Airbus A320 -232 4552 VT-IGZ IndiGo Airlines ferried 12oct21 KUL-DEL prior return to lessor ex D-AUBK
Airbus A320 -232 2804 VT-IHJ IndiGo Airlines ferried 06/10-11oct21 AMM-DEL-TBS-IST-LFBF, all white on return to lessor ex TC-FHE
Airbus A320 -232 5076 OE-ITG Glenveagh Aviation regd 11oct21, parked at ISL ex VT-IER
Airbus A320 -271N 9375 VT-WJQ Go First ferried 05oct21 HYD-DEL after paint, first aircraft after rebranding ex F-WWDJ
Airbus A320 -251N 10552 VT-TQG Vistara delivery 14oct21 TLS-DEL ex F-WWTX
Airbus A321 -251NX 10205 VT-ILT IndiGo Airlines delivery 13oct21 XFW-DEL ex D-AZAI
Source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:34 am

My state Uttar Pradesh gets its 3rd International Airport in the holy city of Kushinagar.This Airport becomes the 8th Civil Airport in my state and also the 3rd International Airport in U.P as well.Kushinagar is one of the 4 significant Buddhist Pilgrimage sites on the planet as this is where Lord Buddha attained parinirvana.This airport will help boost pilgrimage into Kushinagar by connecting it to Bodhgaya and directly to major buddhist countries like Myanmar,Thailand,Vietnam,Singapore,Laos,Cambodia, China,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Nepal,Bhutan,Sri Lanka etc.

List of Airports in my Uttar Pradesh -:

1. Lucknow Intl Airport ( My Homebase, Awadh )
2.Kanpur ( Awadh )
3.Varanasi Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
4.Prayagraj ( Purvanchal )
5.Gorakhpur ( Purvanchal )
6.Kushinagar Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
7.Bareily ( West U.P )
8.Agra ( West U.P )
9.Jewar Intl* ( PLANNED )

Can't wait to fly to Kushinagar !!

Special Delegation is arriving from Sri Lanka for the inauguration incl 100 Buddhist monks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/zeenews.in ... 2.html/amp
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:23 am

FligtReporter wrote:
My state Uttar Pradesh gets its 3rd International Airport in the holy city of Kushinagar.This Airport becomes the 8th Civil Airport in my state and also the 3rd International Airport in U.P as well.Kushinagar is one of the 4 significant Buddhist Pilgrimage sites on the planet as this is where Lord Buddha attained parinirvana.This airport will help boost pilgrimage into Kushinagar by connecting it to Bodhgaya and directly to major buddhist countries like Myanmar,Thailand,Vietnam,Singapore,Laos,Cambodia, China,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Nepal,Bhutan,Sri Lanka etc.

List of Airports in my Uttar Pradesh -:

1. Lucknow Intl Airport ( My Homebase, Awadh )
2.Kanpur ( Awadh )
3.Varanasi Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
4.Prayagraj ( Purvanchal )
5.Gorakhpur ( Purvanchal )
6.Kushinagar Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
7.Bareily ( West U.P )
8.Agra ( West U.P )
9.Jewar Intl* ( PLANNED )

Can't wait to fly to Kushinagar !!

Special Delegation is arriving from Sri Lanka for the inauguration incl 100 Buddhist monks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/zeenews.in ... 2.html/amp


Interesting.
Do the airports other than Lucknow, Varanasi, Gorakhpur and Agra get regular flights?
 
atal17
Posts: 576
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:56 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:26 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
My state Uttar Pradesh gets its 3rd International Airport in the holy city of Kushinagar.This Airport becomes the 8th Civil Airport in my state and also the 3rd International Airport in U.P as well.Kushinagar is one of the 4 significant Buddhist Pilgrimage sites on the planet as this is where Lord Buddha attained parinirvana.This airport will help boost pilgrimage into Kushinagar by connecting it to Bodhgaya and directly to major buddhist countries like Myanmar,Thailand,Vietnam,Singapore,Laos,Cambodia, China,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Nepal,Bhutan,Sri Lanka etc.

List of Airports in my Uttar Pradesh -:

1. Lucknow Intl Airport ( My Homebase, Awadh )
2.Kanpur ( Awadh )
3.Varanasi Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
4.Prayagraj ( Purvanchal )
5.Gorakhpur ( Purvanchal )
6.Kushinagar Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
7.Bareily ( West U.P )
8.Agra ( West U.P )
9.Jewar Intl* ( PLANNED )

Can't wait to fly to Kushinagar !!

Special Delegation is arriving from Sri Lanka for the inauguration incl 100 Buddhist monks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/zeenews.in ... 2.html/amp


Interesting.
Do the airports other than Lucknow, Varanasi, Gorakhpur and Agra get regular flights?


Prayagraj, Kanpur and Bareilly have now got more flights courtesy of indiGo
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:10 pm

About the Tatas and Jaguar, have posted something here, those interested can look it up -

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1465393&p=23001411#p23001411
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:33 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
My state Uttar Pradesh gets its 3rd International Airport in the holy city of Kushinagar.This Airport becomes the 8th Civil Airport in my state and also the 3rd International Airport in U.P as well.Kushinagar is one of the 4 significant Buddhist Pilgrimage sites on the planet as this is where Lord Buddha attained parinirvana.This airport will help boost pilgrimage into Kushinagar by connecting it to Bodhgaya and directly to major buddhist countries like Myanmar,Thailand,Vietnam,Singapore,Laos,Cambodia, China,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Nepal,Bhutan,Sri Lanka etc.

List of Airports in my Uttar Pradesh -:

1. Lucknow Intl Airport ( My Homebase, Awadh )
2.Kanpur ( Awadh )
3.Varanasi Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
4.Prayagraj ( Purvanchal )
5.Gorakhpur ( Purvanchal )
6.Kushinagar Intl Airport ( Purvanchal )
7.Bareily ( West U.P )
8.Agra ( West U.P )
9.Jewar Intl* ( PLANNED )

Can't wait to fly to Kushinagar !!

Special Delegation is arriving from Sri Lanka for the inauguration incl 100 Buddhist monks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/zeenews.in ... 2.html/amp


Interesting.
Do the airports other than Lucknow, Varanasi, Gorakhpur and Agra get regular flights?


Yes Prayagraj,Kanpur and Bareily have daily flights with all of them having direct daily flights from not just Delhi but some to Mumbai,Bangalore,Raipur,Bhuabneswar and Kolkata as well.
 
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BawliBooch
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:01 am

hohd wrote:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/after-air-india-govt-set-to-sell-alliance-air-under-asset-disposal-programme/articleshow/86905133.cms

Alliance air will also be sold according to a report. May be Spice jet will get this as a consolation.

As far as Indigo goes, they were a thorn in everybody's way - Jet, Kingfisher, AI, Spicejet, even regionals, and used capacity dumping to a new level.

What this ET article says is that Alliance Air might also be put up on the selling block in the future. For now, it stays in Govt hands. Alliance is not part of the Tata deal.

For a number of reasons, Alliance cannot be sold. For the simple reason that Alliance Air is being used to operate to sub-par sectors. Whether people like it or not, the model in India is that the Govt airline enters a new route, develops it and then farms it out to a private carrier once it becomes profitable. Also, Third world Govts like the one in India need a state owned carrier to dispense favors, operate non-profitable "social" sectors and a "ghar ki murgi" for doing thankless National Service that no one else will. Air India/Indian Airlines did it in their day and now the Govt will certainly need a replacement. Enter a rebranded Alliance.

Alliance Air, rebranded in a new sanskaari avatar with a tacky livery, will soon be criss-crossing India very soon at 16000 feet. Once they get new Airbuses from that Chinese leasing company, they will be flying to the regional countries as well. In essence, a new sanskaari version of the old Indian Airlines.

avier wrote:
Your reference to IC days, of connecting state capitals or far flung areas to DEL, doesn't hold much relevance today as 6E is doing that job with extremely high frequencies. So no need to have another pan-India govt airline to fill any gaps in the network at the national capital atleast. Today DEL is the hotspot for every pvt airline. Beyond DEL, like said above, govt just has to promote the new tier3 airports to pvt airlines by showing Alliance flying there.


True. 6E is doing a fine job dumping capacity far in excess of demand. But just how profitable are they? How long can you cook the books with SLBs to companies based in Tax havens? Like KingFisher, 6E is also a bubble! Bloggers didnt see the flaws in KF either when they were jetting around on free tickets in return for promoting the airline on forums like these. KF was the best thing back then since sliced bread and it would never end! Until it did! Now, those Bloggers are flying 6E (except one who prefers SpiceJet ;) ), and people are being told the same lies that were once spun about KFA! The mix of a private Air India in Tata hands and the new Govt carrier is sure to impact business. And I am sure someone in RBI will soon find out about this nice little SLB game that 6E is playing. Interesting Times!

avier wrote:
If the govt decides to scale up Alliance Air to another pan-India domestic carrier, they'll be back to square one : that is end up with another loss making AI in their hands.

Can I get a Hallelujah?! Bhakts who were arguing for selling Air India with the reasoning that "Govt should not be in Airline business" will soon have to argue to the contrary within the next 12 months. I feel for them - NOT!

As i have always argued, Govt should not be in the Airline business. But in India/South Asia, that will always be the case. And that is exactly what is playing out before us! Save this post! We will be discussing this again over the next year!

PS: Is it necessary for Govt babus to learn about Leasing Contracts and all that? Are Power by the hour contracts the new standard? Are PBTH contracts cheaper if utilization is less than 10 h/day? Isnt India in an undeclared war with China on the Northern and Eastern borders? Wont that cause a problem if you lease Airbuses from a Chinese company?

So many questions! Will just have to wait and watch! GET THE POPCORN!
 
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BawliBooch
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:21 am

hohd wrote:
Vistara and the future Tata airline would be better off to serve a small snack and free beverage service in economy like most of US and EU carriers do on their domestic and short haul services and provide buy on board for those who want a meal. They can then better compete on price with most of LCCs in India and hopefully succeed.

Also Tata needs to revamp the frequent flyer program and make it easier to qualify for benefits.


Vistara was always an overrated product. And with the big-bad blue wolf dumping capacity, there was no way a FSC airline could really provide that kind of service and survive. The full hot meals in economy of the early 2000's are gone! For good!

Vistara, merged into Air India should be the FSC. A more right sized Business Cabin (8 seats on A320) and doing away with Premium Economy on domestic should be step one. Tacky stuff like the "Basic Economy" fares for the back of the cabin dont work IMO. Airline within an Airline idea doesnt work. Never has! Ask Goyal Saheb!

Simple hot meals in economy on domestic should not be a problem really. It can be done. Problem is with expectations. Vistara tried to set this hyper premium image but delivery was sub-par. That is bound to cause issues.
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:09 am

So the third Intl Airport of my state U.P is operational now with the first ever international flight being Sri Lankan airlines A320-200 that flew in yesterday (Reg.4R-ABO) and landed on RWY 29 at Kushinagar International Airport
IATA (KBK)
ICAO ( VEKI ).

This also happens to be the 8th Operational Airport in my state and 3rd International Airport too along with my homrbase Lucknow and Varanasi. It is also the third airport to be fully civil airport along with LKO and VNS of my state given the other 5 airports like Gorakhpur,Agra,Bareily,Kanpur and Prayagraj are all Defense airports and have a tiny restricted civil enclave for pax operations.

At the Inauguration ceremony Along with Civil aviation minister and my honourable CM Sri Yogi Adityanath ji Ambassdors and Diplonats of 12 Buddhist countries were present too namely Thailand,Bhutan,Myanmar,Japan,South Korea,Vietnam,Laos,Cambodia,Singapore,Sri Lanka and Nepal who came in from DEL onboard the Air India A320N ( VT-EXA ) that landed on RWY 11.

Spicejet has opened its booking to the Holy land from DEL and soon bookings will be opened for CCU and BOM as well.I will on the very first schedule flight of SG Q400 and Im super excited to be flying to KBK

KBK also happens to have the longest RWY my state and Im sure soon Thai Smile will add KBK on its already Seasonal Pilgrimage flights sector which are usually 3 a week ( BKK - GAY - VNS - BKK ).

It could be as ( BKK - GAY - KBK - VNS -BKK ) in the near future.I invite all of my fellow avgeeks to do fly to KBK soon its a small yet significat and beautiful temple town of my state and experience the serene calmness and spirituality of it all.

Thanks to GOI and AAI for making this dream come true for all Buddhists and Purvanchalis !

Take care Everyone.
Namo Buddha !
Last edited by FligtReporter on Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
sand26391
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:17 am

I believe KBK will be soon connected to the South, probably HYD/BLR by Summer 2022.
Good Luck!
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am

sand26391 wrote:
I believe KBK will be soon connected to the South, probably HYD/BLR by Summer 2022.
Good Luck!


Thanks a lot for your wishes and its great to know that South India will be connected to the Holy Land soon too also for South Indian tourists wishing to visit Lumbini or Nepal then its just close to 70 Kms north of KBK and they can take a bus or cab and can take a trip to Nepal in the Morning and come back in the evening !

The best part about Kushinagar is that is far away from all the big industries/cities and pollution and just a tiny piece of spiritual paradise nestled in the green farms and jungles and rivers with just a few scattered villages and Buddhist Stupas,Monastries,Myriads of Foreign Temples and hotels and villages..just to give you an idea about its size then the whole Airport is bigger than the town of Kushinagar itself.
Pilgrimage season is from October to March but you can come as a tourist too if you wanna enjoy the chill foggy beauty of this place however,it gets a litle crowded withThai,Burmese,Chinese,Vietnamese and other foreign buddhist pilgrims and hotel prices shoot up,at times it gets hard to book a hotel due to foreign pilgirms having booked whole hotel but you can get a good deal if you may book in advance.

I hope some of the airlines start services to KBK from South India soon and hope our South Indian friends enjoy their time once they are here.

Thanks :)
 
sand26391
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:53 am

I believe 6E had plans for BLR-GAY for SS21 but got delayed due to 2nd wave. Will be an interesting sector for sure!
 
User avatar
thebunkerparodi
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:51 am

since air india is in tata hand now, doesn't that mean the compagny is now back to its original owner?
 
whiplash
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:48 am

thebunkerparodi wrote:
since air india is in tata hand now, doesn't that mean the compagny is now back to its original owner?

Yes, Captain Obvious.
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:04 am

sand26391 wrote:
I believe 6E had plans for BLR-GAY for SS21 but got delayed due to 2nd wave. Will be an interesting sector for sure!


They can plan for BLR - GAY - KBK - VNS - BLR ..it could work great for Sri Lankan Pilgrims all round year cause normally Pilgrimage flights are seasonal ( Nov -March ) so for Sri Lankans planning to offer pilgrimage any time of the year can connect via BLR or MAA if they are connected to KBK.
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:26 am

I had a question for anyone who could probably answer or have some knowledge about Air Space tax etc.

So with KBK now operational and thai smile etc are already planning to add it on their already pilgrimage routing of BKK - GAY - VNS I was wondering why no Intl airlines are flying to Lumibini Airport (Siddhartnagar),Nepal given that also has a 3 KM runway and a fairly large terminal too however, No Intl airline that operate seasonal flights to India ( GAY - VNS ) ever fly there they just return back from India.

Now with KBK included in the Pilgrimage sector ..would it effect Lumbini airport's appeal ?

Also I was wondering is it because Airlines would have to pay extra tax just to land at Lumbini airport which is barely 70KMs from Kushinagar and it makes no sense to pay extra and burn fuel where pilgrims could easily take the tour bus to Lumbini from KBK itself.

Though the terminal at Lumbini is bigger however,I feel airlines would prefer KBK over BWA for some reason as most of the South East Asian countries will anywhich ways have to cross India to enter Nepal airspace then why not just drop the pilgrims or pick them up from KBK - GAY - VNS than fly 70 KMs further into another airspace.

Do you think Im right with this theory ? Or Does BWA has any advantage over KBK ?
 
hohd
Posts: 1137
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:00 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
hohd wrote:
Vistara and the future Tata airline would be better off to serve a small snack and free beverage service in economy like most of US and EU carriers do on their domestic and short haul services and provide buy on board for those who want a meal. They can then better compete on price with most of LCCs in India and hopefully succeed.

Also Tata needs to revamp the frequent flyer program and make it easier to qualify for benefits.


Vistara was always an overrated product. And with the big-bad blue wolf dumping capacity, there was no way a FSC airline could really provide that kind of service and survive. The full hot meals in economy of the early 2000's are gone! For good!

Vistara, merged into Air India should be the FSC. A more right sized Business Cabin (8 seats on A320) and doing away with Premium Economy on domestic should be step one. Tacky stuff like the "Basic Economy" fares for the back of the cabin dont work IMO. Airline within an Airline idea doesnt work. Never has! Ask Goyal Saheb!

Simple hot meals in economy on domestic should not be a problem really. It can be done. Problem is with expectations. Vistara tried to set this hyper premium image but delivery was sub-par. That is bound to cause issues.


Even though simple hot meals in economy should not be a problem, but it is for most carriers including AI. It is very difficult to be consistent. Better to keep it simple. A snack + free beverage (juices/coffee/tea/water) and buy on board. The competition is tough, and with Akasa another ULCC coming up it will be difficult to keep fares high. Most Indian domestic passengers only want on time flights and low fares, everything else is secondary.

Basic economy could actually work, it allows FSC carriers to compete with LCC carriers, well at least it works in US and Europe.
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:44 am

hohd wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
hohd wrote:
Vistara and the future Tata airline would be better off to serve a small snack and free beverage service in economy like most of US and EU carriers do on their domestic and short haul services and provide buy on board for those who want a meal. They can then better compete on price with most of LCCs in India and hopefully succeed.

Also Tata needs to revamp the frequent flyer program and make it easier to qualify for benefits.


Vistara was always an overrated product. And with the big-bad blue wolf dumping capacity, there was no way a FSC airline could really provide that kind of service and survive. The full hot meals in economy of the early 2000's are gone! For good!

Vistara, merged into Air India should be the FSC. A more right sized Business Cabin (8 seats on A320) and doing away with Premium Economy on domestic should be step one. Tacky stuff like the "Basic Economy" fares for the back of the cabin dont work IMO. Airline within an Airline idea doesnt work. Never has! Ask Goyal Saheb!

Simple hot meals in economy on domestic should not be a problem really. It can be done. Problem is with expectations. Vistara tried to set this hyper premium image but delivery was sub-par. That is bound to cause issues.


Even though simple hot meals in economy should not be a problem, but it is for most carriers including AI. It is very difficult to be consistent. Better to keep it simple. A snack + free beverage (juices/coffee/tea/water) and buy on board. The competition is tough, and with Akasa another ULCC coming up it will be difficult to keep fares high. Most Indian domestic passengers only want on time flights and low fares, everything else is secondary.

Basic economy could actually work, it allows FSC carriers to compete with LCC carriers, well at least it works in US and Europe.


Those are far different markets. But similar pressures have been put on the traveler, so he uses air more and Rail less and making train journeys much more expensive. The idea is sooner than later they will pushed into using Air. As far as fares not being high, we can't be sure of how the 'new airline' will behave. I agree a lot with the above poster BawlBooch has shared. There is and are still a lot of things left to play out. We do know that spicejet is on brink of closure . If it is found out sooner or later that Indigo 6E has been cooking books (plausible, almost any and every business in India does this to an extent). And those that are listed in stock markets are 'helped' by credit rating agencies to give them a boost -

https://www.moneylife.in/article/when-p ... 65073.html

If one wants to see more on this, they could look up DHFL and the reporting done by moneylife. That company had been cooking books from its inception from what all we know today. And then there is and are ponzi schemes both in medieval and modern businesses which have milked people of their savings, But all of that would go beyond remit of what happens in the airline industry. We do know for e.g. the overbooking of tickets which is done by Airlines and if everybody comes, then kicking off one or two people either by enticement or by force depending on what they can get away with. I will leave talk about regulation, as we have all seen how 'competent' or 'incompetent' they are in various threads on this corner itself, :(
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:54 am

There is another important difference that has not been stressed. Most airports in the west are bigger as well as numerous. On both counts we fail. If we look to our neighbor China, they have around 250 odd Airports and another less than half are under various stages of construction. Whereas, from what I could gather in U.S. it has around 6k airports which to my mind is simply unbelievable. If you have that many airports then for sure you need all sorts of flights and then the whole economics works. Even after lot of airlines crash and burn, people will still use air in U.S. Not so in India, which is very much a price-sensitive market as has been shared and demonstrated a number of times over the past several years.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:51 am

BawliBooch wrote:

For now, it stays in Govt hands. Alliance is not part of the Tata deal.

For a number of reasons, Alliance cannot be sold.

.


That's exactly what some of the enlightened ones on this forum were saying about Air India some months ago. That it won't be sold, it won't have takers, too much debt, it will be gifted to 'friends' yada yada yada. Now look what's happened.

At least in these matters, this government seems different from the earlier ones. If they could scrap Article 370 and sell Air India, they are capable of doing anything.
 
pune
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:24 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

For now, it stays in Govt hands. Alliance is not part of the Tata deal.

For a number of reasons, Alliance cannot be sold.

.


That's exactly what some of the enlightened ones on this forum were saying about Air India some months ago. That it won't be sold, it won't have takers, too much debt, it will be gifted to 'friends' yada yada yada. Now look what's happened.

At least in these matters, this government seems different from the earlier ones. If they could scrap Article 370 and sell Air India, they are capable of doing anything.


But again sold to whom, the Tatas whose both airlines have been running losses, Vistara and Air Asia. Their own group companies, Tata Motors and Tata Steel are in debt. The only shining is TCS and again in the Indian context we just don't know. We do know for this deal, they have asked and got loans from public sector banks (PSB's). All the other airlines which are going to be coming up the same way are going via similar route.
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:37 am

pune wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

For now, it stays in Govt hands. Alliance is not part of the Tata deal.

For a number of reasons, Alliance cannot be sold.

.


That's exactly what some of the enlightened ones on this forum were saying about Air India some months ago. That it won't be sold, it won't have takers, too much debt, it will be gifted to 'friends' yada yada yada. Now look what's happened.

At least in these matters, this government seems different from the earlier ones. If they could scrap Article 370 and sell Air India, they are capable of doing anything.


But again sold to whom, the Tatas whose both airlines have been running losses, Vistara and Air Asia. Their own group companies, Tata Motors and Tata Steel are in debt. The only shining is TCS and again in the Indian context we just don't know. We do know for this deal, they have asked and got loans from public sector banks (PSB's). All the other airlines which are going to be coming up the same way are going via similar route.


The same and much more has been shared in this -

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/opini ... 25211.html

The report goes into great detail as to how many aviation airlines have sunk in the last two decades. As I had shared on the same thread, approximately 21 odd.

It goes more into the recent ones as public memory is quite short. There is supposed to be Jalan Kalrock consortium to bring back Jet but there already have been a few cases filed against them, both by workers as well as lenders. Then there is Rakesh Jhunjhunwala (accused of insider trader, money laundering etc. and has paid fines for it.) bring Aksas airlines, this one betting on the cheap 737 Max grandfathered planes. I do not want put more breadth on to that as the whole 737 Max saga has been beaten to death on the forum so just a search will tell all the pros and cons about it.

Till public sector banks are there to bail out, such airlines will continue to come and operate. Plain and simple. Less said of private banks but that's another discussion altogether.
 
VTORD
Posts: 858
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:12 am

hohd wrote:

Even though simple hot meals in economy should not be a problem, but it is for most carriers including AI. It is very difficult to be consistent. Better to keep it simple. A snack + free beverage (juices/coffee/tea/water) and buy on board. The competition is tough, and with Akasa another ULCC coming up it will be difficult to keep fares high. Most Indian domestic passengers only want on time flights and low fares, everything else is secondary.

Basic economy could actually work, it allows FSC carriers to compete with LCC carriers, well at least it works in US and Europe.


Good points all. The basic economy concept was one of the smartest ideas US carriers introduced. On a number of high volume sectors in India between DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, AMD etc.., it could work.

pune wrote:
If it is found out sooner or later that Indigo 6E has been cooking books (plausible, almost any and every business in India does this to an extent).

Using a misleading financial operating model (SLB) is not the same as "cooking the books". The latter implies fraud.

pune wrote:
If you have that many airports then for sure you need all sorts of flights and then the whole economics works. Even after lot of airlines crash and burn, people will still use air in U.S. Not so in India, which is very much a price-sensitive market as has been shared and demonstrated a number of times over the past several years.

The US geography makes air travel a more convenient option for many people over road or train. For e.g., there is an airport called Joplin in MO which used to be served only from DFW by AA and now sees service only from UA.

And the US market isn't all that price insensitive as people seem to think. That's why Spirit and Frontier work. For e.g., pre-pandemic flying OAK-DTW on NK was considerably cheaper than flying SJC-DTW on DL (even basic economy) so I actually know people in the south Bay Area who would prefer the drive to OAK over the more convenient SJC.
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:34 am

VTORD wrote:
hohd wrote:

Even though simple hot meals in economy should not be a problem, but it is for most carriers including AI. It is very difficult to be consistent. Better to keep it simple. A snack + free beverage (juices/coffee/tea/water) and buy on board. The competition is tough, and with Akasa another ULCC coming up it will be difficult to keep fares high. Most Indian domestic passengers only want on time flights and low fares, everything else is secondary.

Basic economy could actually work, it allows FSC carriers to compete with LCC carriers, well at least it works in US and Europe.


Good points all. The basic economy concept was one of the smartest ideas US carriers introduced. On a number of high volume sectors in India between DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, AMD etc.., it could work.

pune wrote:
If it is found out sooner or later that Indigo 6E has been cooking books (plausible, almost any and every business in India does this to an extent).

Using a misleading financial operating model (SLB) is not the same as "cooking the books". The latter implies fraud.

pune wrote:
If you have that many airports then for sure you need all sorts of flights and then the whole economics works. Even after lot of airlines crash and burn, people will still use air in U.S. Not so in India, which is very much a price-sensitive market as has been shared and demonstrated a number of times over the past several years.

The US geography makes air travel a more convenient option for many people over road or train. For e.g., there is an airport called Joplin in MO which used to be served only from DFW by AA and now sees service only from UA.

And the US market isn't all that price insensitive as people seem to think. That's why Spirit and Frontier work. For e.g., pre-pandemic flying OAK-DTW on NK was considerably cheaper than flying SJC-DTW on DL (even basic economy) so I actually know people in the south Bay Area who would prefer the drive to OAK over the more convenient SJC.


In India, it is difficult to find fraud and convict one for it. Just as an e.g. I had shared DHFL and what happened there. And the saga for the FD investors is far from over. And this is apart from the various investigations which will still needs years to complete.

https://www.moneylife.in/article/dhfl-r ... 65262.html

As I shared about Indigo we don't know. Unless and until a company goes through a forensic audit, it is difficult to know if everything is fine or not. And their erstwhile auditors Chaturvedi and Shah continue to escape - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/pr ... 174793.cms

The above I am sharing to share how difficult it is to book people for anything in India.
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:41 am

And regulators like SEBI have been found wanting in all cases. I do agree on the point that ULCC carriers also did a big difference to American public movement. As far as car and train are concerned, for train specifically there was political and monetary as the powers-to-be wanted to invest more in highways than trains, something it continues as a problem to grapple with and probably do so in future, but this is probably again going beyond remit. There is however, a lot of public domain knowledge on that issue, if somebody wants to know more/discuss, they are free to DM me.

At the end of the day, if India wants to think of itself of not even an Aviation hub but something just for itself, it needs to be at the very least 10 times more airports. And of course larger airports. Unless we don't do this. don't see it going anywhere. AAI could bring out specific bonds and if the offer is attractive, people may invest. Even if you start planning today, it would take half a decade to a decade to have an Airport. But now, we seem to have given all hopes of that. Everything is to be done by private players including greenfield airport development. Let's see what the future holds :(
 
 
edealinfo
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:17 pm

pune wrote:
[ Then there is Rakesh Jhunjhunwala bring Aksas airlines, this one betting on the cheap 737 Max grandfathered planes. .


what do you mean by "cheap 737 Max grandfathered planes.". What's the grandfathered context here?
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:29 pm

edealinfo wrote:
pune wrote:
[ Then there is Rakesh Jhunjhunwala bring Aksas airlines, this one betting on the cheap 737 Max grandfathered planes. .


What do you mean by "cheap 737 Max grandfathered planes.". What's the grandfathered context here?


There are enough number of threads here which answer the question, one even started by me -

viewtopic.php?t=1439569

And then there is good old Seattle Times, which also help.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... isis-a-qa/

Now as far as the 'cheap' part is concerned, that actually comes from the usage of Mr. Jhunjhunwala himself when he said he would be getting it cheap/dirt cheap. Are those some frames lying on the tarmac somewhere in the U.S. or would they be completely new frames is a point of speculation at this point in time. And yes, I know after the re-certification it has started flying again, but as a paying customer I at least would not fly on it.

Now, I don't know whether it is Boeing going through a bad phase or what, but it seems its problems seem to be never-ending.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... -787s.html

FWIW, it seems, at least from an I.T. person perspective, it's an Intel and AMD story all over again. China C919 could be the third one and should have been welcomed, but it isn't due to the current trade war between China and U.S. But that is another kettle of fish altogether.

Again, is the whole thing a kind of hot air, I am not in a position to comment either way. I and many others have seen so many announcements and so few of them fructify, it is difficult to know what would happen.
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:00 pm

This may have been part of any early negotiations if there were between Mr. Jhunjhunwala and Boeing -

posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=23006019

There is also this -

https://www.thestreet.com/phildavis/sto ... ry-buyouts

We do know that Boeing has been having some cash flow issues and hence asked the American Govt. for a massive bailout which apparently they have agreed to .

So it is possible for Boeing to try to get some cash flow happening. And if things go well, overtime they could give all or any sorts of extra services to shore that up.
 
subramak1
Posts: 266
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:59 pm

pune wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:

For now, it stays in Govt hands. Alliance is not part of the Tata deal.

For a number of reasons, Alliance cannot be sold.

.


That's exactly what some of the enlightened ones on this forum were saying about Air India some months ago. That it won't be sold, it won't have takers, too much debt, it will be gifted to 'friends' yada yada yada. Now look what's happened.

At least in these matters, this government seems different from the earlier ones. If they could scrap Article 370 and sell Air India, they are capable of doing anything.


But again sold to whom, the Tatas whose both airlines have been running losses, Vistara and Air Asia. Their own group companies, Tata Motors and Tata Steel are in debt. The only shining is TCS and again in the Indian context we just don't know. We do know for this deal, they have asked and got loans from public sector banks (PSB's). All the other airlines which are going to be coming up the same way are going via similar route.


So, what should Government do, sell Air India to Emirates? There was a reasonably transparent process and the airline was sold to the highest bidder. Yes. PSB banks are loaning money to this venture, at least they can trust Tata sons to pay their loans as they have done for other debts. I am sure Indian banks would also be more careful about such things.

Best, Subramanian
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:50 pm

They are actually in the midst of another huge debt for their 'transformation' in new businesses.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compan ... sformation

And if PSB had even an iota of expertise when they sanction loans, they wouldn't be where they are today. Also, all high-value debt decisions/loans are taken at board level, not the managerial level, this includes people from the Finance Ministry people as well who are there. If you want to discuss that, we can do it in Non-Aviation section but here it would be out of remit of the corner here.
 
subramak1
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:20 pm

pune wrote:
VTORD wrote:
hohd wrote:

Even though simple hot meals in economy should not be a problem, but it is for most carriers including AI. It is very difficult to be consistent. Better to keep it simple. A snack + free beverage (juices/coffee/tea/water) and buy on board. The competition is tough, and with Akasa another ULCC coming up it will be difficult to keep fares high. Most Indian domestic passengers only want on time flights and low fares, everything else is secondary.

Basic economy could actually work, it allows FSC carriers to compete with LCC carriers, well at least it works in US and Europe.


Good points all. The basic economy concept was one of the smartest ideas US carriers introduced. On a number of high volume sectors in India between DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, AMD etc.., it could work.

pune wrote:
If it is found out sooner or later that Indigo 6E has been cooking books (plausible, almost any and every business in India does this to an extent).

Using a misleading financial operating model (SLB) is not the same as "cooking the books". The latter implies fraud.

pune wrote:
If you have that many airports then for sure you need all sorts of flights and then the whole economics works. Even after lot of airlines crash and burn, people will still use air in U.S. Not so in India, which is very much a price-sensitive market as has been shared and demonstrated a number of times over the past several years.

The US geography makes air travel a more convenient option for many people over road or train. For e.g., there is an airport called Joplin in MO which used to be served only from DFW by AA and now sees service only from UA.

And the US market isn't all that price insensitive as people seem to think. That's why Spirit and Frontier work. For e.g., pre-pandemic flying OAK-DTW on NK was considerably cheaper than flying SJC-DTW on DL (even basic economy) so I actually know people in the south Bay Area who would prefer the drive to OAK over the more convenient SJC.


In India, it is difficult to find fraud and convict one for it. Just as an e.g. I had shared DHFL and what happened there. And the saga for the FD investors is far from over. And this is apart from the various investigations which will still needs years to complete.

https://www.moneylife.in/article/dhfl-r ... 65262.html

As I shared about Indigo we don't know. Unless and until a company goes through a forensic audit, it is difficult to know if everything is fine or not. And their erstwhile auditors Chaturvedi and Shah continue to escape - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/pr ... 174793.cms

The above I am sharing to share how difficult it is to book people for anything in India.


IT will slowly change. It may be hard to understand this, but level of corruption in Private sector in India are comparable or less than what it was in US when it was in the same economic stage. The primary driver was people's common sense and Teddy Roosevelts trust breaking. Thankfully for India, we can learn from their lessons. That is what RBI has been doing in banking. I am sure other organizations would do the same too.

Best, Subramanian
 
pune
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:40 pm

subramak1 wrote:
pune wrote:
VTORD wrote:

Good points all. The basic economy concept was one of the smartest ideas US carriers introduced. On a number of high volume sectors in India between DEL, BOM, BLR, MAA, AMD etc.., it could work.


Using a misleading financial operating model (SLB) is not the same as "cooking the books". The latter implies fraud.


The US geography makes air travel a more convenient option for many people over road or train. For e.g., there is an airport called Joplin in MO which used to be served only from DFW by AA and now sees service only from UA.

And the US market isn't all that price insensitive as people seem to think. That's why Spirit and Frontier work. For e.g., pre-pandemic flying OAK-DTW on NK was considerably cheaper than flying SJC-DTW on DL (even basic economy) so I actually know people in the south Bay Area who would prefer the drive to OAK over the more convenient SJC.


In India, it is difficult to find fraud and convict one for it. Just as an e.g. I had shared DHFL and what happened there. And the saga for the FD investors is far from over. And this is apart from the various investigations which will still needs years to complete.

https://www.moneylife.in/article/dhfl-r ... 65262.html

As I shared about Indigo we don't know. Unless and until a company goes through a forensic audit, it is difficult to know if everything is fine or not. And their erstwhile auditors Chaturvedi and Shah continue to escape - https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/pr ... 174793.cms

The above I am sharing to share how difficult it is to book people for anything in India.


IT will slowly change. It may be hard to understand this, but level of corruption in Private sector in India are comparable or less than what it was in US when it was in the same economic stage. The primary driver was people's common sense and Teddy Roosevelts trust breaking. Thankfully for India, we can learn from their lessons. That is what RBI has been doing in banking. I am sure other organizations would do the same too.

Best, Subramanian


RBI has been slow to act and in the last few years has actually gone backwards on many a thing but as shared that discussion can be had in the Non-Aviation corner. Make it and I will share what little bit I know so you can judge for yourself.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:03 pm

pune wrote:
This may have been part of any early negotiations if there were between Mr. Jhunjhunwala and Boeing -

posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=23006019
.


Thanks. So Mr. Jwalla is thinking he can be a super negotiator and get an incredible price teh aircraft. Even if so, that's teh easy part. Running the airline profitably is an alltigether different matter.

May he seems something that not everone sees -- that there is a huge market wiating to open up once Indians get richer once the economy improves.
 
pune
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:41 pm

edealinfo wrote:
pune wrote:
This may have been part of any early negotiations if there were between Mr. Jhunjhunwala and Boeing -

posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=23006019
.


Thanks. So Mr. Jwalla is thinking he can be a super negotiator and get an incredible price teh aircraft. Even if so, that's teh easy part. Running the airline profitably is an alltigether different matter.

May he seems something that not everone sees -- that there is a huge market wiating to open up once Indians get richer once the economy improves.


That is actually wishy-washy thinking. The problem is that the current data does not show that -

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/ ... 932711.ece

https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... e/87126794

Most industries are operating at 40-50% levels and GOI doesn't have any policy plans except saying we will have V graph growth, which we have been hearing since what 2016-2017.

Even if we take that argument on that face, we would need more everything, more Airports, more connections, more gates. Hell, even AAI has something like 40% vacancy and most of our Airports don't have ILS. Of the ones which have, most Airlines haven't trained them for it as it is a costly exercise. Look around, we need in many places not one but two, and then we need those Airports to function 24x7. Demand will only go up when either people become rich or tickets are plentiful and cheaper, or a combination of both. The last I heard, tickets are 25-30% higher than normal and with the runaway inflation happening (petrol and diesel prices going up daily for last few months) don't see the leisure market going up soon except for emergencies and whatnot.
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 1719
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:00 pm

hohd wrote:
Even though simple hot meals in economy should not be a problem, but it is for most carriers including AI. It is very difficult to be consistent. Better to keep it simple.

Simple hot meals in economy are not a problem. Indian Airlines did it for years. Jet Airways took it to a new level and Kingfisher took it even further. Jet Airways did get the "consistency" part right for the most part. Indian Airlines had a 2 tier model for airline catering. One standard for higher yielding routes like DEL-BOM and DEL-BLR where Taj Catering was hired and another standard for Tier-2 routes where companies like ChefAir were used. But at the end of the day, we had full hot meal service in economy even of 90 minute sectors.

Airline catering companies in India have not yet been infected with the greed that ended Meal service in the US market - $100 for a bag of ice chips greed has not yet happened here. ChefAir will still cater a full hot meal tray in economy class for under $3. What has definitely changed is that yields have crashed ever since the Big Bad Blue wolf started dumping capacity to push out the competition. Harder to make a profit with the same old service levels.

It might seem like a good thing for passengers - airlines dumping capacity. Lower fares for passengers right? Well! Look at NAG airport as a test case. Fares did trend lower when the Blue wolf started dumping capacity. But with the wolf dumping 6 or even 10 flights/day in a market that had 5 total earlier, there was no way to make money. 9W, I5 withdrew altogether and AI scaled back to half the former inventory to the station. Net result - travelers from that city are paying HIGHER average fares than before this game started. I am NOT arguing for Govt regulation - they should stay out of it. Just stating what is!

DIJKKIJK wrote:
That's exactly what some of the enlightened ones on this forum were saying about Air India some months ago. That it won't be sold, it won't have takers, too much debt, it will be gifted to 'friends' yada yada yada. Now look what's happened.

At least in these matters, this government seems different from the earlier ones. If they could scrap Article 370 and sell Air India, they are capable of doing anything.

Your faith is touching. But what the enlightened ones were saying about the Air India Sale was based on facts and history. Cronies did not want Air India, they wanted the carcass in pieces. Slots, Engineering resources, Ground Handling unit ((last 2 are still up for grabs BTW). But this Govt at this point has lost the political capital to make that happen. The AI disinvestment itself has already run into legal and political challenges. We havent heard the last of it. But again, your faith is touching, but misplaced! The Govt seems different but as Arun Shourie said so famously, at the end of the day this Govt is Congress + Cow.

subramak1 wrote:
Yes. PSB banks are loaning money to this venture, at least they can trust Tata sons to pay their loans as they have done for other debts. I am sure Indian banks would also be more careful about such things.

Well! That is EXACTLY what Gurus on this forum said about Kingfisher and Mallya in the period between 2005 and 2010. Check posts about Kingfisher on THIS forum from the period! Indigo has been playing the same SLB game that KFA did in its time but only on a much, much larger scale. And Tatas have been given Air India but tied it to PSBs. Again - what we have seen before. Did not work before! Why will it work now? Again, your Faith is touching, but entirely misplaced!

subramak1 wrote:
IT will slowly change. It may be hard to understand this, but level of corruption in Private sector in India are comparable or less than what it was in US when it was in the same economic stage. The primary driver was people's common sense and Teddy Roosevelts trust breaking. Thankfully for India, we can learn from their lessons. That is what RBI has been doing in banking. I am sure other organizations would do the same too.

Since you bought up RBI "reforms" - What exactly has RBI done in the last 12 months? Have those helped business or destroyed it? For eg the changed rules for recurring electronic payments and a dozen other "reforms"! Have those helped? The RBI under this govt is like a Bull in a China shop - destroying new businesses and value so they can be picked off by cronies for cheap. That is not reform! But we can discuss that in detail on Non-Aviation.

What we are discussing here is that the Airline sector in India is not getting the reforms it deserves. Ad-hoc decisions driven more by Interests of Cronies rather than what the sector actually needs. You know the Kabadi wallahs (Garbage recyclers) in the market who see value in breaking and selling items in pieces rather than building up something from the ground?

Like that!

Editing to add important PS: As I had predicted. RBI is starting to look closely at the Big Bad Blue wolf's numbers! KFA bubble also burst when RBI and financial institutions started ignoring the hype and looking closely at the numbers! Remember? Interesting times!
 
pune
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:11 am

On the money. RBI itself had to characterize itself as 'free-ranging goose' and it had to issue warnings about how much GOI was gouging it.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/mo ... 837103.ece

RBI had too many rules, too many things to look after, and many of those policies often in violation of each other. For e.g. it has to make sure that inflation does not go high while at the same time ensure growth for Indian businesses while at the same time provide cheap credit for Govt. schemes. On top of that all the regulatory duties that it has. And again vacancies in it are at 30-40% and many of them in key regulatory roles. In such a scenario, how is it supposed to govern PSB, Commercial Banks as well as co-operative banks ?

That is also the reason why frauds happen. And now this Govt. came up with NFRA but just like others it is doomed to failure. We know what happened to NCLT (Bankruptcy process). Instead of making things simpler for businesses, they have been making it complicated. All of this can be discussed in detail in Non-Aviation if need be.

Aviation could have been a cash-cow for the Govt. if it had chosen to make new greenfield airports rather than selling existing ones to cronies. I am sure one day 2-4-5 years down the line there will be people coming back to Aviation but if infrastructure is not built for that what will happen, it will not be able to grow more. My own city Pune till 2016-2017 was having a consistent 10% year on year growth. And this is when it is a civilian and military airport. Now of course, it is not working as they are relaying and perhaps extending the runaway, couple of weeks after which it will be open.

At the same time Govt. made announcement that all civil airports that have military airbases will not have international flights. Please do not try asking me the rationale behind it.

Seems they have forgotten that spy satellites exist. GPS, 30-40 year technology military applications are well-known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

And yet we have the above rule happening. What we have nowadays is security by obscurity. Those who want to know can look it up on Wikipedia and other places. And please don't ask any rational questions.

I think it will take years before any serious discussion about Aviation reforms will be done. There have been committees in the past that have done some good work, but all those reports and whatnot have been put in some dark corner. Many questions that we ask again and again in this fora have been answered by those committees and their findings but those reports and their findings are in a black-hole. One could look at the work done in 2005-2006 as well as 2007-2008 but and even later but all that somehow is not there. Remember the Civil Aviation question put to Adani which I had shared from Lok Sabha in the previous month, that has been deleted/unable to be viewed any longer, If they can do that without any consequence, then nothing else matters :(
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:33 pm

Just couple of days ago, the travel and allowances of Members of Parliament were given (MEP) in it of the various items lined/marked with 50 trips which will borne by the taxpayer. The total estimate of the same has been earmarked as INR 14 lakhs, How things will happen in reality nobody knows. There was a question on Air India which was asked on the floor of the house, 2-3 years ago where both members of the ruling party and opposition party (but more from ruling party) who had failed to clear the dues of Air India when they traveled. All agreed we would do what is necessary, and then there was no follow-up of the same. If needed, can share the SS of the same as I have taken it and upload to photo sharing site.
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:35 pm

Here is the link of the same - https://postimg.cc/D8dxKFpC
 
pune
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:01 am

This morning, rose up to find quite a few travelers who are traveling from Mumbai screaming at the top of the heads at the chaos at CSMIA/Mumbai International Airport. As it is, there has been a surge in crowd lately. Added to that, number of passengers who were supposed to fly from Pune Airport had to take flights from Mumbai. So additional pressure on the Airport. To add to the confusion, gate Nos. Were changed at the last moment. I also have had that happen on occasion, but you are usually told much before. Some people lost the flight as they couldn't do the running/jostling through the crowd at the last minute. Quite a few people suggesting that if you are traveling, make sure to come at least 3-4 hrs. Before departure even if it's on domestic, forget international, perhaps sharing from their own wisdom/experience. Some people did share photos and it was just a sea of people. Of course, the airport operator has chosen to be complete silent about the issue. The official handle of CSMIA gave generic replies as is given. Anything happens, say sorry and move on. So much for privatization and accountability.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:07 pm

pune wrote:
This morning, rose up to find quite a few travelers who are traveling from Mumbai screaming at the top of the heads at the chaos at CSMIA/Mumbai International Airport.


Hear there was a royal mess at Lucknow airport as well.

But we should discuss the issue without naming the Operator. He whose name shall not be taken!
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:17 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
pune wrote:
This morning, rose up to find quite a few travelers who are traveling from Mumbai screaming at the top of the heads at the chaos at CSMIA/Mumbai International Airport.


Hear there was a royal mess at Lucknow airport as well.

But we should discuss the issue without naming the Operator. He whose name shall not be taken!


Of course lesson learned. Sad to know about Lucknow but expected. When you have an operator who doesn't have knowledge about the sector that's bound to happen. We have so many lessons from history. Remember Vijaya Mallya, both the CEO and the CFO were against him changing seats, livery and whatnot but Mr. Mallya thought he knew better. And you see in bad billionaires, even today some of those who were employed do feel he will make good on his promises. It is because of people like that, that such people know, do anything, nothing will happen.
 
highvoltageeee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:46 pm

pune wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
pune wrote:
This morning, rose up to find quite a few travelers who are traveling from Mumbai screaming at the top of the heads at the chaos at CSMIA/Mumbai International Airport.


Hear there was a royal mess at Lucknow airport as well.

But we should discuss the issue without naming the Operator. He whose name shall not be taken!


Of course lesson learned. Sad to know about Lucknow but expected. When you have an operator who doesn't have knowledge about the sector that's bound to happen. We have so many lessons from history. Remember Vijaya Mallya, both the CEO and the CFO were against him changing seats, livery and whatnot but Mr. Mallya thought he knew better. And you see in bad billionaires, even today some of those who were employed do feel he will make good on his promises. It is because of people like that, that such people know, do anything, nothing will happen.

What experience did gmr and gvk have before winning the bids for Delhi Mumbai and Hyderabad?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:38 pm

highvoltageeee wrote:
What experience did gmr and gvk have before winning the bids for Delhi Mumbai and Hyderabad?


Well, GMR and GVK had prior experience in infrastructure construction. Another key difference was that both GMR and GVK actually built the airports they are running.

OTOH, Voldemort (he who shall not be named for fear of setting off the faithful) got readymade airports built by the Govt decades ago and upgraded at taxpayer expense to modern standards.

Second, both GMR and GVK hired professionals to run the airport. Voldemort has hired people from Surat/Navsari to run the airports he got for free.

The only reason Voldemort even got the airports was that he knew the Dic-tator!

There is a difference.
 
pune
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:11 pm

And both GMR and GVK are still constructing Airports and greenfield airports outside India. Both have been consistently bagging international contracts. That itself shows off their capabilities. And without any advertisement, any controversy, this is how serious companies do business. They don't need to advertise, their work itself is their advertisement.
 
pune
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:30 am

This was the scene at the Mumbai airport few weeks ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtLUSLnewIg

You will see the catch-all term 'security threat' being shared therein. Whenever, we are unable to do something, we use that catch-all term. That makes sure that we are not accountable no matter what happens. It is a good 'excuse' . For somebody who would look at threat assessment seriously, would he want more crowds or less, I am sure more than enough people here are wise to know what the reality is.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:07 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
And Tatas have been given Air India but "tied it to PSBs".


I love your posts which by the way are very well written and interesting. There was one phrase [in quotes above] for which I didn't know what it meant. Could you kindly elaborate? Thanks.

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