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9w748capt
Posts: 1914
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:56 am

edealinfo wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
highvoltageeee wrote:


1. Wonder what the load was?

2. The flight was exactly 15 hours. For trips of 15 to 16 hours non stop is a 77W (as is the AA flight) or a 787 a better fit?


Pretty much full in all cabins IIRC. I think I saw posted that just a handful of empty seats. Inaugural flight though so doesn't necessarily reflect what overall demand will be, though rumor is AA is very happy with advance bookings.

If AA can fill the 77W (particularly the premium cabins) then the 77W would be a better choice. 15 hours is quite routine for a 77W. CX ran 77Ws on their US-HKG routes for years. I certainly hope AA keeps the 77W on this route.
 
highvoltageeee
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:44 am

 
highvoltageeee
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:53 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:55 am

9w748capt wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


1. Wonder what the load was?

2. The flight was exactly 15 hours. For trips of 15 to 16 hours non stop is a 77W (as is the AA flight) or a 787 a better fit?


Pretty much full in all cabins IIRC. I think I saw posted that just a handful of empty seats. Inaugural flight though so doesn't necessarily reflect what overall demand will be, though rumor is AA is very happy with advance bookings.

If AA can fill the 77W (particularly the premium cabins) then the 77W would be a better choice. 15 hours is quite routine for a 77W. CX ran 77Ws on their US-HKG routes for years. I certainly hope AA keeps the 77W on this route.


Thanks for the information, how many KGs of ATF does the 777 consume for this flight compared to 789? Just curious as to how much fuel consumption would happen presuming the flight is full?
 
hohd
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:44 pm

9w748capt wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


1. Wonder what the load was?

2. The flight was exactly 15 hours. For trips of 15 to 16 hours non stop is a 77W (as is the AA flight) or a 787 a better fit?


Pretty much full in all cabins IIRC. I think I saw posted that just a handful of empty seats. Inaugural flight though so doesn't necessarily reflect what overall demand will be, though rumor is AA is very happy with advance bookings.

If AA can fill the 77W (particularly the premium cabins) then the 77W would be a better choice. 15 hours is quite routine for a 77W. CX ran 77Ws on their US-HKG routes for years. I certainly hope AA keeps the 77W on this route.


AA better hope that this will continue. I am not sure how many first/business class customers will connect to Indigo, especially most Indigo flights are from a different terminal at DEL, which means having to take the inter terminal shuttle - unless they arrange some sort of luxury cab services for the select customers.

They can however expect some connections from Jet Blue and a few AA flights at JFK and a few on the DEL side with Indigo to smaller cities where there is no ME competition. However most passengers connecting at DEL to smaller cities in India have a long overnight layover. Their main competitor for these smaller cities would be AI - AI has favorable timings arriving/departing at DEL for connections.
 
airboss787
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:50 am

Does anyone know why AI127 (DEL-ORD) has diverted twice in the past week, once to Stockholm and the other time to Oslo just yesterday?
 
VTORD
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:52 pm

airboss787 wrote:
Does anyone know why AI127 (DEL-ORD) has diverted twice in the past week, once to Stockholm and the other time to Oslo just yesterday?


Both for medical emergency - apparently the Stockholm was a stroke. I read it on a news site which was behind a paywall but that's what the headline said.

https://www.mysafersky.com/
 
TEMPO
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:50 pm

Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... er-flights

International commercial passenger flights have started arriving in India from November 15 following the long ban owing to the COVID-19 pandemic situation.
….
While schemes such as Vande Bharat and air bubble pacts with specific countries had already opened the skies for passenger flights, full-fledged commercial flights were not allowed to operate.
 
avier
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:38 am

TEMPO wrote:
Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


Yes, it's opened up quarantine-free travel to foreign tourists from almost 100 countries worldwide. Also visa fee has been waived off for tourists. Issue is flights are under air bubble agreement and so are still limited in number.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/15/india-a ... tries.html
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:17 am

avier wrote:
TEMPO wrote:
Yes, it's opened up quarantine-free travel to foreign tourists from almost 100 countries worldwide. Also visa fee has been waived off for tourists. Issue is flights are under air bubble agreement and so are still limited in number.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/15/india-a ... tries.html


What does air bubble mean here when one could fly, even before November 11, from Washington DC to Bangalore via Frankfurt, Germany with no issues?
 
avier
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:30 pm

edealinfo wrote:
What does air bubble mean here when one could fly, even before November 11, from Washington DC to Bangalore via Frankfurt, Germany with no issues?

There are certain restrictions like caps over number of flights and of transfer pax.
This makes it a bit clear:
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 479283.ece
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:01 pm

TEMPO wrote:
Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... er-flights

International commercial passenger flights have started arriving in India from November 15 following the long ban owing to the COVID-19 pandemic situation.
….
While schemes such as Vande Bharat and air bubble pacts with specific countries had already opened the skies for passenger flights, full-fledged commercial flights were not allowed to operate.


I travelled back to India in August and returned in September. It was on a commercial flight and not on any Vande Bharat affair. There was no ban at that point of time and there wasn't any earlier either. I don't know what they are on about.
 
TEMPO
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:31 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
TEMPO wrote:
Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... er-flights

International commercial passenger flights have started arriving in India from November 15 following the long ban owing to the COVID-19 pandemic situation.
….
While schemes such as Vande Bharat and air bubble pacts with specific countries had already opened the skies for passenger flights, full-fledged commercial flights were not allowed to operate.


I travelled back to India in August and returned in September. It was on a commercial flight and not on any Vande Bharat affair. There was no ban at that point of time and there wasn't any earlier either. I don't know what they are on about.


Included in a series of rules was the condition that Indian passport holders would be allowed inbound and outbound travel only to airports in “bubble” countries and not beyond. For example, Indian passport holders were allowed to fly British Airways to London only, but were not permitted to connect/transfer beyond that. Similar rules were in place for Lufthansa/Frankfurt, Air France/Paris and so on for all the “bubble” countries. Under the “bubble” rules, US-bound Indian passport holders were compelled to fly Air India and United only.

Foreign passport holders including OCI card holders and other non-tourist visa holders could fly and connect wherever they chose.

I don’t know if the “bubble” rules were ever enforced, but they were published and updated by the Government of India throughout the pandemic period.
 
hohd
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:45 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
TEMPO wrote:
Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... er-flights

International commercial passenger flights have started arriving in India from November 15 following the long ban owing to the COVID-19 pandemic situation.
….
While schemes such as Vande Bharat and air bubble pacts with specific countries had already opened the skies for passenger flights, full-fledged commercial flights were not allowed to operate.


I travelled back to India in August and returned in September. It was on a commercial flight and not on any Vande Bharat affair. There was no ban at that point of time and there wasn't any earlier either. I don't know what they are on about.


I dont know if they are enforcing it uniformly even for Indian passport holders. I know of one elderly couple who are Indian citizens visiting US and went back on Air France from US to India a week ago.

As the article in Hindu says, may be GoI wants to renegotiate agreements and also helps AI which will soon be in Tata group.
 
VTORD
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:36 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
I travelled back to India in August and returned in September. It was on a commercial flight and not on any Vande Bharat affair. There was no ban at that point of time and there wasn't any earlier either. I don't know what they are on about.

"Vande Bharat" was the joke that went on too long. What started as an op to evacuate Indian nationals stuck around the world due to Covid-19 in the summer of 2020, basically morphed in to a MoCA PR exercise by calling inbound AI flights as Vande Bharat well in to 2021. I believe only AI flights were called as such. Mr. Puri was tweeting about it as recently as the time of his stepping out of his role. Scheduled international flight operations were not allowed.

Example: https://twitter.com/MoCA_GoI/status/1455547520134770688

TEMPO wrote:
Included in a series of rules was the condition that Indian passport holders would be allowed inbound and outbound travel only to airports in “bubble” countries and not beyond. For example, Indian passport holders were allowed to fly British Airways to London only, but were not permitted to connect/transfer beyond that. Similar rules were in place for Lufthansa/Frankfurt, Air France/Paris and so on for all the “bubble” countries. Under the “bubble” rules, US-bound Indian passport holders were compelled to fly Air India and United only.

Before the recent US travel ban was lifted, QR/DOH and eventually EK/DXB were the popular choices with a 14-day "quarantine" to circumvent US-ban on travel from India. Know lots of parents of Indians who travelled that way. "Quarantine packages" were the thing with travel agents in India.
 
TEMPO
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:34 pm

TEMPO wrote:
Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... er-flights

International commercial passenger flights have started arriving in India from November 15 following the long ban owing to the COVID-19 pandemic situation.
….
While schemes such as Vande Bharat and air bubble pacts with specific countries had already opened the skies for passenger flights, full-fledged commercial flights were not allowed to operate.


I guess I found the answer to my own question via an article on Union Minister for Civil Aviation Jyotiraditya Scindia’s statement reported in The Mint today [November 19th].

[No paywall] https://www.livemint.com/news/india/whe ... 44918.html

Excerpts:

Scheduled international passenger flights to and from India remain suspended since March last year amid the coronavirus pandemic.

The DGCA has extended the suspension on scheduled international passenger flights till 30 November 2021.

India has air bubble arrangements with more than 25 countries for operating international flights. Under an air bubble arrangement between two countries, international passenger flights can be operated by their respective carriers into each other's territories subject to certain conditions.

The minister said that the government is evaluating the process for normalising international operations and asserted that it wants to return to normalcy while keeping in mind the Covid pandemic in certain parts of the world.

As a possible indication that overseas flight operations are unlikely to be fully normal in the near term, he said that people should not let down their guard [against CoVid-19].
 
hohd
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:26 pm

TEMPO wrote:
TEMPO wrote:
Outlook India is reporting today [November 16th] that India’s international airline flight ban was lifted yesterday. I have not seen any other confirmation of this news. Can anyone else verify that this is true?


https://www.outlookindia.com/outlooktra ... er-flights

International commercial passenger flights have started arriving in India from November 15 following the long ban owing to the COVID-19 pandemic situation.
….
While schemes such as Vande Bharat and air bubble pacts with specific countries had already opened the skies for passenger flights, full-fledged commercial flights were not allowed to operate.


I guess I found the answer to my own question via an article on Union Minister for Civil Aviation Jyotiraditya Scindia’s statement reported in The Mint today [November 19th].

[No paywall] https://www.livemint.com/news/india/whe ... 44918.html

Excerpts:

Scheduled international passenger flights to and from India remain suspended since March last year amid the coronavirus pandemic.

The DGCA has extended the suspension on scheduled international passenger flights till 30 November 2021.

India has air bubble arrangements with more than 25 countries for operating international flights. Under an air bubble arrangement between two countries, international passenger flights can be operated by their respective carriers into each other's territories subject to certain conditions.

The minister said that the government is evaluating the process for normalising international operations and asserted that it wants to return to normalcy while keeping in mind the Covid pandemic in certain parts of the world.

As a possible indication that overseas flight operations are unlikely to be fully normal in the near term, he said that people should not let down their guard [against CoVid-19].


I suspect that GoI will continue extending this "flight suspension" till next March, by then Air India would have been sold and Tata would have about 2 months of relatively limited competition to establish itself.
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:28 am

Fleet Movement Update 23rd November 2021
Leaving Fleet
Airbus A320 -232 4535 OE-ITN Goshawk ferried 19-20nov21 LFBF-KEF-BGR-MTY, for VivaAerobus? ex VT-IGY
Airbus A320 -232 4614 PK-SAA Super Air Jet first in svc 16-17nov21 BTH-CGK-PLM ex VT-IEC
Airbus A320 -232 5080 OE-IWL Avolon regd 11nov21, parked at CGK ex VT-IEV
Airbus A320 -232 5923 VT-IFY IndiGo Airlines ferried 20nov21 DEL-ISL prior return to lessor ex D-AUBD

New Delivery
Airbus A320 -271N 9592 VT-WJY Go First delivery 19nov21 XFW-DEL ex D-AXAS

Source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=1
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 575
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:58 am

Proud to be the very first Passenger on the very first flight to Kushinagar Intl Airport the third Intl airport of my state and as the only and biggest plane spotter of my state it was a responsibility for me to take this inaugural flight from DEL - KBK.Getting the first ever boarding pass laminated as soon as I land in the land of Lord Buddha.

Also I would invite all fellow avgeeks to visit my state and the beautiful Buddha temple town of Kushinagar soon..Im sure you will love your stay in here.

#InauguralFlight
 
VTCIE
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:06 pm

Two big stories this week that were completely unreported on this site. This directly affects me since I study in Singapore.

1. India will restart commercial flights with Singapore from 29 November onwards, including an air bubble under Singapore’s VTL scheme from Delhi, Mumbai and Chennai. SQ has VTL flights from DEL/BOM/MAA to SIN (VTL flights are applicable only to SIN and not from SIN). IndiGo and Vistara have announced VTL flights from MAA and BOM respectively, and AI will soon do the same from DEL. In addition SQ has announced non-VTL flights from BLR, CCU, HYD and other Indian cities. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapo ... ai-2328701

2. International flights to/from India will finally restart from 15 December, except for 14 high-risk countries (inexplicably including the UK and Singapore, with which air bubble arrangements are already in place/going to take place). https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 09571.html
 
rvnagesh50
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 10:10 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:34 pm

I just returned after about 8 days.DTW-IAD-CDG-MAA and returned MAA-CDG-DTW..Return premium was full and economy, I dont know.Onward a few empty seats in premium..Need vaccination proof and Covid test both ways within 72 hours of departure.
 
voxkel
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:56 am

I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.
 
sabby
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:06 pm

VTCIE wrote:
Two big stories this week that were completely unreported on this site. This directly affects me since I study in Singapore.

1. India will restart commercial flights with Singapore from 29 November onwards, including an air bubble under Singapore’s VTL scheme from Delhi, Mumbai and Chennai. SQ has VTL flights from DEL/BOM/MAA to SIN (VTL flights are applicable only to SIN and not from SIN). IndiGo and Vistara have announced VTL flights from MAA and BOM respectively, and AI will soon do the same from DEL. In addition SQ has announced non-VTL flights from BLR, CCU, HYD and other Indian cities. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapo ... ai-2328701

2. International flights to/from India will finally restart from 15 December, except for 14 high-risk countries (inexplicably including the UK and Singapore, with which air bubble arrangements are already in place/going to take place). https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 09571.html


On a closer look, its not as bas as it sounds for those 14 countries. For the countries who already had an air bubble agreement, they can resume upto 75% of pre-covid bilateral capacity. For the countries who didn't, they can still operate 50% of pre-covid bilateral capacity.
source : https://www.newdelhiairport.in/pdf/Advi ... -26-11.pdf
 
Aseem747
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:15 pm

https://twitter.com/flyspicejet/status/ ... 9173043201
Spice Jet not too long ago tweeted that they're looking for crew to fly B772.
 
TEMPO
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:01 pm

… but here we go again …. Oil prices and the financial indices fell 10% in response to Omicron news.

Chairing an important meeting on the Covid-19 scenario and vaccination status in the country today morning, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has directed officials to review plans for easing of international travel restrictions in light of the new coronavirus variant - B.1.1.529, or Omicron.

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/pm- ... 45871.html

sabby wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
Two big stories this week that were completely unreported on this site. This directly affects me since I study in Singapore.

1. India will restart commercial flights with Singapore from 29 November onwards, including an air bubble under Singapore’s VTL scheme from Delhi, Mumbai and Chennai. SQ has VTL flights from DEL/BOM/MAA to SIN (VTL flights are applicable only to SIN and not from SIN). IndiGo and Vistara have announced VTL flights from MAA and BOM respectively, and AI will soon do the same from DEL. In addition SQ has announced non-VTL flights from BLR, CCU, HYD and other Indian cities. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapo ... ai-2328701

2. International flights to/from India will finally restart from 15 December, except for 14 high-risk countries (inexplicably including the UK and Singapore, with which air bubble arrangements are already in place/going to take place). https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 09571.html


On a closer look, its not as bas as it sounds for those 14 countries. For the countries who already had an air bubble agreement, they can resume upto 75% of pre-covid bilateral capacity. For the countries who didn't, they can still operate 50% of pre-covid bilateral capacity.
source : https://www.newdelhiairport.in/pdf/Advi ... -26-11.pdf
 
142857
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:39 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:25 pm

voxkel wrote:
I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, strange; particularly because both UA and AI use the exact same aircraft type (Boeing 777-300ER), additionally UA has more seats than AI in their aircraft

Maybe because most of UA's long-haul pilots have 'polar' certification (if indeed there is such a concept), when compared to AI/AA ?

Though as far as BOM - EWR is concerned, there is almost zero difference between flying 'flat' and flying Polar (AI-191 vs UA-830)

.
 
voxkel
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:20 pm

142857 wrote:
voxkel wrote:
I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, strange; particularly because both UA and AI use the exact same aircraft type (Boeing 777-300ER), additionally UA has more seats than AI in their aircraft

Maybe because most of UA's long-haul pilots have 'polar' certification (if indeed there is such a concept), when compared to AI/AA ?

Though as far as BOM - EWR is concerned, there is almost zero difference between flying 'flat' and flying Polar (AI-191 vs UA-830)

.


Pre-Covid AI used the polar route for DEL-JFK/ORD. Don’t know the reason only UA is flying the polar route.
 
hohd
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:53 pm

sabby wrote:
VTCIE wrote:
Two big stories this week that were completely unreported on this site. This directly affects me since I study in Singapore.

1. India will restart commercial flights with Singapore from 29 November onwards, including an air bubble under Singapore’s VTL scheme from Delhi, Mumbai and Chennai. SQ has VTL flights from DEL/BOM/MAA to SIN (VTL flights are applicable only to SIN and not from SIN). IndiGo and Vistara have announced VTL flights from MAA and BOM respectively, and AI will soon do the same from DEL. In addition SQ has announced non-VTL flights from BLR, CCU, HYD and other Indian cities. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapo ... ai-2328701

2. International flights to/from India will finally restart from 15 December, except for 14 high-risk countries (inexplicably including the UK and Singapore, with which air bubble arrangements are already in place/going to take place). https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 09571.html


On a closer look, its not as bas as it sounds for those 14 countries. For the countries who already had an air bubble agreement, they can resume upto 75% of pre-covid bilateral capacity. For the countries who didn't, they can still operate 50% of pre-covid bilateral capacity.
source : https://www.newdelhiairport.in/pdf/Advi ... -26-11.pdf


This means TK which has not flown in the last 21 months to India, will now start flights at 50% capacity to BOM and DEL. Indigo may follow suit. Some relief in the high air fares to/from India. However with this omicron variant, travel may drop so fares may drop automatically.
 
yashk
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:37 pm

voxkel wrote:
I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.

I started a thread on this topic sometime back: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1467045
Post afghan issue, AI stopped polar route but re-started using the hindu kush route only for Dreamliners.
 
voxkel
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:10 pm

yashk wrote:
voxkel wrote:
I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.

I started a thread on this topic sometime back: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1467045
Post afghan issue, AI stopped polar route but re-started using the hindu kush route only for Dreamliners.


That's interesting. I noticed the AA flight wasn't able to make it to JFK and had to divert to YQX. Likely due to strong headwinds. I'm wondering if they will swap in a 789 on this route eventually.

UA has a newer 77W (there was a slightly weight reduced version that came out ~2017 and is why UA got this instead of waiting for the 77X). Perhaps that is the difference maker allowing them to operate the polar route?
 
hohd
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:52 pm

It appears that India will delay the resumption of so called "scheduled" international flights beyond Dec 15 due to this new variant. Which means bubble arrangement to continue. This is good for AI.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tra ... 033327.cms
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:18 am

voxkel wrote:
I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.

AA does not have the right to use Russian airspace and that is why it takes longer than UA.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/america ... a-flights/

Looks like AA has more issues to deal with for this JFK-DEL route.
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 575
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:33 am

Super excited to be flying Air India next year in January as it will be my first AI flight since its takeover by TATAs..So I will be flying on A32N of AI from BLR to my homebase LKO direct service by second week of jan and even though I read somewhere the full takeover will be by 23rd Jan but Im sure the interiors would be cleaned up and folding tables tightened and attention would be given to fixing or maintaining the cabin well not only on the 320 family but also on widebodies too.

One of the most important things will be the OTP (On Time Performance) of this flight and I hope AI gets rid of uncles and aunties as Pilots and Cabin crew so flights wont get delayed for them not having had their medicines or fight with in laws.

Meals are included and never had any problems with them in the past in fact AI serves the best Indian Food in the skies so expecting same old delcious brunch.

As a brand always loved Air India cause of their history and I hope TATAs bring it to its lost glory..Looking forward to my flight.
 
pune
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:01 am

First sell Air India to the Tatas for only 18k crore and then infuse 62k crore taxpayer money for the debt. This wasn't shared earlier -

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 819071.ece

And then they say we are the ones who do politics.

https://epaper.thehindu.com/Home/ShareA ... mageview=0

https://firstindia.co.in/news/india/gov ... a-spending
 
freqflyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:07 am

pune wrote:
First sell Air India to the Tatas for only 18k crore and then infuse 62k crore taxpayer money for the debt. This wasn't shared earlier -

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 819071.ece

And then they say we are the ones who do politics.

https://epaper.thehindu.com/Home/ShareA ... mageview=0

https://firstindia.co.in/news/india/gov ... a-spending


The govt said they wanted to sell AI and they assumed the a large portion of the debts to make it happen. It was there in the agreement - you should read it through. (The TATAs also assumed about ~16000 Cr of debts ) . It is obvious the Govt would pay down their debt, which are actually the losses incurred in running AI, so that the ghost of the gov't run Air India is finally laid to rest.
Where is the politics in this? This is simple business. Why are you surprised? If anything, it is your political antipathy towards the govt which is leading you to make such posts.
 
pune
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:29 pm

freqflyer wrote:
pune wrote:
First sell Air India to the Tatas for only 18k crore and then infuse 62k crore taxpayer money for the debt. This wasn't shared earlier -

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 819071.ece

And then they say we are the ones who do politics.

https://epaper.thehindu.com/Home/ShareA ... mageview=0

https://firstindia.co.in/news/india/gov ... a-spending


The govt said they wanted to sell AI and they assumed the a large portion of the debts to make it happen. It was there in the agreement - you should read it through. (The TATAs also assumed about ~16000 Cr of debts ) . It is obvious the Govt would pay down their debt, which are actually the losses incurred in running AI, so that the ghost of the gov't run Air India is finally laid to rest.
Where is the politics in this? This is simple business. Why are you surprised? If anything, it is your political antipathy towards the govt which is leading you to make such posts.


LOL. Oh, didn't know this is 'business'. This is how people are hood-winked. This is taxpayer money. Was the agreement in public domain. I challenge you to show me a copy of the agreement done between GOI and the Tatas which is in public domain. And this is apart from the finances raised by the Tatas which is again a similar amount for the purpose of 'paying off debt' and whatnot. At least that is what were the statements issued by the Tata Group last month.

And may I remind you that only month GOI has increased more 'free travel' by aircraft for people of both houses. Most of the big amount is and was the amount pending by the politicians. This was raised again and again in the parliament but without any solution before the sale.

All the revelations are coming out now, after the fact, not before :(
 
VTORD
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:57 pm

^^there are many arguments in this post so let me try to understand what is being said:

1. When the government "assumed" some of AI's debt and moved it the SPV, the primary intent of course was to make AI more attractive to the buyer(s). But it is obviously understood that the intent was to pay it off at some point. Otherwise it would be considered as defaulting by a sovereign government on its debt obligation. That's a big deal.

2. Re: the point about the Tata's: I think they assumed rest of the (part not assumed by GoI) of AI's humungous debt as part of the deal. Not sure what is fishy about that. They are servicing their purchase through borrowing from another financial institution. Again, what is wrong with that?

3. Lastly about the unpaid amounts by the government ministries and such: That is what is owed to AI (dues), not directly what AI borrowed (debt). It is not the same thing and not the cause of the debt.


I am personally not a big fan of this government or Dear Leader and Mota Bhai but I am not sure there's a lot of ammunition here to go after them specifically in this regard.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:28 am

Aseem747 wrote:
https://twitter.com/flyspicejet/status/1464564709173043201
Spice Jet not too long ago tweeted that they're looking for crew to fly B772.


They got two free 777 from Boeing as compensation for 737 Max grounding. I read this report on simpleflying.com.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:44 am

voxkel wrote:
I noticed that the UA flights from IND-US are flying the typical polar route:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#29fbe399

While the AI/AA flights are avoiding Russia and flying due west.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#29f3392f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#29ee0c9d

What is the reason for this? AA/AI DEL-JFK is routinely taking nearly 16 hours, while UA DEL-EWR is closer to 14h30 due to the direct polar routing. AI DEL-ORD is pushing 17hrs on some days, really straining the 77Ws.


I read a report on simpleflying.com that AA does not have permission as yet from Russia for the polar route. The report suggested that AA hadn't yet applied for it, and that AA pilots are protesting the long flight which has 1 captain and 3 first officers when in their opinion 2 captains are required + first officers.
 
pune
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:04 am

VTORD wrote:
^^there are many arguments in this post so let me try to understand what is being said:

1. When the government "assumed" some of AI's debt and moved it the SPV, the primary intent of course was to make AI more attractive to the buyer(s). But it is obviously understood that the intent was to pay it off at some point. Otherwise it would be considered as defaulting by a sovereign government on its debt obligation. That's a big deal.


True, but that was never told when it was making that on auction stage. That was left unintnetionally unclear that is the issue.

VTORD wrote:
2. Re: the point about the Tata's: I think they assumed rest of the (part not assumed by GoI) of AI's humungous debt as part of the deal. Not sure what is fishy about that. They are servicing their purchase through borrowing from another financial institution. Again, what is wrong with that?


But if the so-called humungous debt is being done by the above, then again the assumption doesn't bear fruit. And somebody above told this was known as advance. If this was known, then wouldn't it be a case of bad faith and giving wrong statements to both public as well as Public Sector banks (again run by taxpayer money, we just recapitalized them again 2-3 years ago.) . This would be called misrepresentation of facts, not assumptions. And that is the reason why you have agreements made drawn by legal experts.

3. Lastly about the unpaid amounts by the government ministries and such: That is what is owed to AI (dues), not directly what AI borrowed (debt). It is not the same thing and not the cause of the debt.

FWIW, Indian private banking doesn't have too many successes either then or now.

https://www.livemint.com/Sundayapp/fjhe ... story.html

VTORD wrote:
I am personally not a big fan of this government or Dear Leader and Mota Bhai but I am not sure there's a lot of ammunition here to go after them specifically in this regard.


That is not the issue here. The issue is that the Govt. lied throughout as to what it would be doing and whatnot and continues to You can check back the articles shared just not couple of months ago which are in public domain and what GOI was saying than. Now facts are being changed on-ground substantially from what they were.
 
freqflyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:29 am

pune wrote:
freqflyer wrote:
pune wrote:
First sell Air India to the Tatas for only 18k crore and then infuse 62k crore taxpayer money for the debt. This wasn't shared earlier -

(


If you had bothered to read the terms of the tender or even a summary of it, you would not be making such pronouncements. The proportion of the debt being assumed by the govt is clear in this Business Standard article. You can google for further info, in case you really want to look for the facts. All data was public knowledge. It is not some secret deal with the Tatas. Anyway, this is the last on this topic for me

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 352_1.html
 
pune
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:52 pm

freqflyer wrote:
pune wrote:
freqflyer wrote:


If you had bothered to read the terms of the tender or even a summary of it, you would not be making such pronouncements. The proportion of the debt being assumed by the govt is clear in this Business Standard article. You can google for further info, in case you really want to look for the facts. All data was public knowledge. It is not some secret deal with the Tatas. Anyway, this is the last on this topic for me

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 352_1.html


Again, this was after the fact, see the date, 8th October. Show me an article from August or September where it shared the same, then we have something to talk about.

https://www.ndtv.com/business/tata-wins ... id-2568657
 
freqflyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:11 pm

pune wrote:
freqflyer wrote:
pune wrote:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbctv ... 31.htm/amp

Even after such terms only the Tatas put in a serious bid.
Air India could not even have been given away free.
 
VTORD
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:00 pm

I hope we can put an end to the debate here:

https://www.deccanherald.com/business/b ... 38599.html

Relevant point:
October 2020: Government sweetens deal; gives flexibility to investors to decide on the amount of Air India debt they want to absorb
 
hohd
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:22 pm

freqflyer wrote:
pune wrote:
freqflyer wrote:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbctv ... 31.htm/amp

Even after such terms only the Tatas put in a serious bid.
Air India could not even have been given away free.


You are right. All previous auctions from GoI which included all the debt drew no response. Only after GoI moved a portion of the debt not related to aircraft, that Tatas were even interested, and the only serious bidder.

IMO, Tatas may have some what overpaid for AI, especially they have to retain AI employees for a whole year. That will be a big drain on the funds and it is still somewhat a risky bid by Tata, now with Jet 2.0, Akasa and the existing airlines all in the process of acquiring new aircraft.
 
pune
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:27 am

hohd wrote:
freqflyer wrote:
pune wrote:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbctv ... 31.htm/amp

Even after such terms only the Tatas put in a serious bid.
Air India could not even have been given away free.


You are right. All previous auctions from GoI which included all the debt drew no response. Only after GoI moved a portion of the debt not related to aircraft, that Tatas were even interested, and the only serious bidder.

IMO, Tatas may have somewhat overpaid for AI, especially they have to retain AI employees for a whole year. That will be a big drain on the funds, and it is still somewhat a risky bid by Tata, now with Jet 2.0, Akasa and the existing airlines all in the process of acquiring new aircraft.


The problem is there were no serious bids. They couldn't invite Indigo otherwise it would have been a monopoly, Spicejet had been down in the dumps, just to make it 'legal' a tender was put from their name, and then it was given to the Tatas. Even the amount to be given to GOI would be raised by Public Sector banks, so all in all back to taxpayers and customers of the bank who would shoulder it.

As far as Spicejet is concerned, where they are can be clearly seen as per today's news -

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/hig ... 87578.html

No sweetheart deals to the Ajay Singh carrier now. And of course, once it declares itself bankrupt, then no money can be recovered from them.

A primer on banking, although it is attuned to U.S. There are a lot of similarities to India. The last time I checked, recovery from written off corporate loans from within the last 5 years was less than 10%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LZSLQ9H79A
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:20 pm

Please continue the Tata and Air India discussion here:

Updated: Tata to (re)acquire most of Air India

Thanks.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 3014
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 am

When will Vistara get their remaining four 787s?
 
VTORD
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:23 pm

edealinfo wrote:
When will Vistara get their remaining four 787s?


Not anytime soon I suppose.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ameri ... 1639057564

Don't know where Vistara is in the waitlist but until Boeing sorts out it's delivery issues. May not be such a bad thing. Business demand is still probably subdued and with the AI acquisition bringing its own challenges, they will more than likely have their hands full anyways. About 3 weeks ago an Instagram account that posts a lot from VCV, had a picture of a stored LH 789 wearing the UK tail - one of the Hainan NTUs. Does anyone know why UK did not take these (wondering if they are without crew rest).
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:06 pm

Fleet Movement Update December 9, 2021
Out:
1. Airbus A320 -232 4491 OE-LDL Air Lease Corp ferried 07dec21 LJU-SNN for paint into all white ex VT-IHX
2. Airbus A320 -232 5076 OE-ITG Glenveagh Aviation ferried 08dec21 ISL-MCT on delivery to? ex VT-IER
3. Boeing 737 -86J 37751 3932 VT-SGX SpiceJet ferried 07-09dec21 DEL-IST-LDE on return to lessor

In:
1. Airbus A320 -251N 10664 VT-IIN IndiGo Airlines delivery 04dec21 TLS-DEL ex F-WWIJ
2. Airbus A321 -251NX 10496 VT-ILZ IndiGo Airlines delivery 07dec21 XFW-DEL
3. Airbus A321 -251NX 10654 VT-IME IndiGo Airlines delivery 07dec21 XFW-DEL 2000th neo aircraft ex D-AVWS ex D-AYAP
4. Airbus A321 -251NX 10651 VT-ILX IndiGo Airlines delivery 09dec21 XFW-DEL ex D-AVZI
5. Boeing 737 -86J 37772 4264 VT-SZM SpiceJet in svc** 04/07-08dec21 DEL-KUT-BGY-TBS-ATQ ex D-ABMK
Source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=1
 
airboss787
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - Q4 2021

Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:29 pm

Anyone know why Vistara's 787s make occasional trips to Seoul from Chennai? Is it a cargo flight?

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