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Elgorou
Topic Author
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Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:54 pm

Avianca and SKY would merge with the purpose to delve into the transition for Colombian carrier to a Low-Cost model in South America, with plans to grow to Brazil in long term. ( source in Spanish and English)

https://dfmas.df.cl/df-mas/por-dentro/p ... fusionaran

https://www.aviacionline.com/2021/10/av ... h-america/
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
pipeafcr
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:28 pm

Interesting and did not see it coming, from what've read both airlines will be keeping their own brands which are good for the markets they operate in. Let's see how it solidifies, it's hard to trust any move by Efromovich and it seems like a he's found a way to pay his debts
 
TexasAirCorp
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:51 pm

Sounds similar to Frank Lorenzo’s ‘low-cost’ post-bankruptcy Continental Airlines
 
aaway
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:38 pm

According to the first link, appears talks began in January. I suppose this is a partial reason why AA decided to link up JetSmart.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:59 pm

Didn't see that one coming, though I do remember there was a rumour a few years ago about a possible "Avianca Chile", back when Avianca was booming.
 
720B
Posts: 371
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:56 pm

pipeafcr wrote:
Interesting and did not see it coming, from what've read both airlines will be keeping their own brands which are good for the markets they operate in. Let's see how it solidifies, it's hard to trust any move by Efromovich and it seems like a he's found a way to pay his debts


Efromovich lost control of Avianca, So he is not be involved in any of this.
 
pipeafcr
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:15 pm

720B wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Interesting and did not see it coming, from what've read both airlines will be keeping their own brands which are good for the markets they operate in. Let's see how it solidifies, it's hard to trust any move by Efromovich and it seems like a he's found a way to pay his debts


Efromovich lost control of Avianca, So he is not be involved in any of this.


Control yes but not ownership and considering the board makeup it's easily noticeable that he still exceeds influence
 
720B
Posts: 371
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:24 pm

pipeafcr wrote:
720B wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Interesting and did not see it coming, from what've read both airlines will be keeping their own brands which are good for the markets they operate in. Let's see how it solidifies, it's hard to trust any move by Efromovich and it seems like a he's found a way to pay his debts


Efromovich lost control of Avianca, So he is not be involved in any of this.


Control yes but not ownership and considering the board makeup it's easily noticeable that he still exceeds influence


He lost all his stock, since he defaulted on the loan from United. The stock was the collateral for that loan.

Stop speculating please
 
asuflyer
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:28 pm

Avianca has already began transitioning into a low-cost carrier within Colombia. Some flights are operated with ex-Viva Colombia A320's and have the LLC style seats and AV has implemented a European style business class. The seats will soon replaced with new Recaro seats without IFE seen in the picture below. Avianca will be taking at least 18 secondhand A320s to replace the older A319s and A320s and possibly more. All A321s will be exiting the fleet as well as older A319s and A320s from the Avianca El Salvador fleet. The existing international fleet consisted of the A319LRs and A320s will remain with the existing style business class.

Image

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/ ... /page-2166
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:37 am

asuflyer wrote:
Avianca has already began transitioning into a low-cost carrier within Colombia. Some flights are operated with ex-Viva Colombia A320's and have the LLC style seats and AV has implemented a European style business class. The seats will soon replaced with new Recaro seats without IFE seen in the picture below. Avianca will be taking at least 18 secondhand A320s to replace the older A319s and A320s and possibly more. All A321s will be exiting the fleet as well as older A319s and A320s from the Avianca El Salvador fleet. The existing international fleet consisted of the A319LRs and A320s will remain with the existing style business class.

Image

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/ ... /page-2166


They’re getting rid of all a321’s in the group?
 
AirDO
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:40 am

I thought they would merge with Viva Air since AV starts to take over A320ceos from VV.
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:01 am

I'm wondering if Sky will, eventually, join Star Alliance.
 
panam330
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:47 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
They’re getting rid of all a321’s in the group?

Unless the lease rates were particularly atrocious, that seems like a shortsighted move. The industry is going in the opposite direction.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3505
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:33 pm

AirDO wrote:
I thought they would merge with Viva Air since AV starts to take over A320ceos from VV.


What? Because Avianca is taking former Viva frames they’re going to merge?
 
dcajet
Posts: 5105
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:46 pm

Avianca has denied today that it has any plans to merge with SKY and that it has not been part of any negotiations towards that end.

https://aero-naves.com/2021/10/04/avian ... sionistas/
 
Kiwiandrew
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:10 pm

dcajet wrote:
Avianca has denied today that it has any plans to merge with SKY and that it has not been part of any negotiations towards that end.

https://aero-naves.com/2021/10/04/avian ... sionistas/


Thanks for sharing. My Spanish is non-existent , so I've had to rely on an English translation ( always risky!) but it seems to me that while the airline itself has no knowledge of a potential deal, they acknowledge that the creditors could be arranging something. If I'm not mistaken, during bankruptcy, the airline is not necessarily a party to discussions regarding its own fate ? It's ultimately the creditors who propose the exit route from bankruptcy, is that right? If that is the case, there still could be some basis for the original news item.

I guess time will tell.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:19 pm

The title has been updated to reflect Avianca's denial of this story.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
nickpo
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:24 pm

Kiwiandrew wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Avianca has denied today that it has any plans to merge with SKY and that it has not been part of any negotiations towards that end.

https://aero-naves.com/2021/10/04/avian ... sionistas/


Thanks for sharing. My Spanish is non-existent , so I've had to rely on an English translation ( always risky!) but it seems to me that while the airline itself has no knowledge of a potential deal, they acknowledge that the creditors could be arranging something. If I'm not mistaken, during bankruptcy, the airline is not necessarily a party to discussions regarding its own fate ? It's ultimately the creditors who propose the exit route from bankruptcy, is that right? If that is the case, there still could be some basis for the original news item.

I guess time will tell.


You can find the original Avianca Investors Relations announcement here in English:

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 498c22.pdf
 
Kiwiandrew
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:34 pm

nickpo wrote:
Kiwiandrew wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Avianca has denied today that it has any plans to merge with SKY and that it has not been part of any negotiations towards that end.

https://aero-naves.com/2021/10/04/avian ... sionistas/


Thanks for sharing. My Spanish is non-existent , so I've had to rely on an English translation ( always risky!) but it seems to me that while the airline itself has no knowledge of a potential deal, they acknowledge that the creditors could be arranging something. If I'm not mistaken, during bankruptcy, the airline is not necessarily a party to discussions regarding its own fate ? It's ultimately the creditors who propose the exit route from bankruptcy, is that right? If that is the case, there still could be some basis for the original news item.

I guess time will tell.


You can find the original Avianca Investors Relations announcement here in English:

https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 498c22.pdf


Thank you for sharing that. I'm still a bit unclear what this denial means. It seems to leave the door open that the Tranche B creditors could have made a deal ( or be making a deal) with Sky of which the operating entity of Avianca has no knowledge? Anybody on here an expert on CH11 ( and translating corporate English into comprehensible English )?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:12 pm

Kiwiandrew wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, during bankruptcy, the airline is not necessarily a party to discussions regarding its own fate ? It's ultimately the creditors who propose the exit route from bankruptcy, is that right?


Not exactly. The management team - Debtor-in-Possession - has an exclusive period to file a plan for re-organization with the Court. That period can be extended. After that period lapses, the Creditor's Committee can propose its own (competing) plan for re-organization. Approval of (multiple) classes of creditors will be sought - but the Court can proceed without unanimous consent of creditors.

I haven't followed what happened since this Bloomberg article from 14 Sept 21, when the company filed its plan for re-org.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ditor-vote

Oh, the joys of U.S. Chaper 11 bankruptcy.
 
Kiwiandrew
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

Not exactly. The management team - Debtor-in-Possession - has an exclusive period to file a plan for re-organization with the Court. That period can be extended. After that period lapses, the Creditor's Committee can propose its own (competing) plan for re-organization. Approval of (multiple) classes of creditors will be sought - but the Court can proceed without unanimous consent of creditors.

I haven't followed what happened since this Bloomberg article from 14 Sept 21, when the company filed its plan for re-org.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ditor-vote

Oh, the joys of U.S. Chaper 11 bankruptcy.


Ah, thank you for your explanation. I find the whole CH11 process very confusing ( I suspect I'm not the only one )
 
SilentEagleC
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Re: Avianca merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:57 pm

panam330 wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
They’re getting rid of all a321’s in the group?

Unless the lease rates were particularly atrocious, that seems like a shortsighted move. The industry is going in the opposite direction.


A321's are pretty much useless for Avianca. Before Covid Avianca had 3 types of A321 (IAE, CFM56, and LEAP) all with a seating configuration of 184Y/12B (total 196 seats). The A321 is a terrible performer in Hot and High conditions (Main Avianca´s hub is BOG 8,300 ft and ISA +15 average), for example, and A321-231 in a regular day could only take off (with a very tight performance calculation) with a weight of 79-83 t out of the 93,5 t the A321 is rated for. Those A321 were normally used in domestic routes (between 20 mins to 1:30 flight time). The longest flight performed by an Avianca's A321 was BOG-MCO (3:30 flight time) and it wasn´t unusual to leave bags in BOG due to payload restrictions even though this flight was flown in the most capable A321, the A321 NEO.
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:43 pm

International fares in South America are freaking high! Why should Avianca be allowed to merge with Sky? To have even less competition and even higher prices???

Colombia<>Chile is served by Latam, Avianca, JetSmart, Sky and Copa (1-stop). Flights are up to 6 hours, can be done with the same flight crew on a roundtrip. Still the minimum fare is 140 USD – only available on some days, often way higher. allowing a merger would be crazy. I don't expect a drop of fares after Viva enters that market. On Colombia<>Mexico fares are similarly high with a lot of "low cost carriers" including Viva
 
usflyer msp
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:45 am

airlinenavigato wrote:
International fares in South America are freaking high! Why should Avianca be allowed to merge with Sky? To have even less competition and even higher prices???

Colombia<>Chile is served by Latam, Avianca, JetSmart, Sky and Copa (1-stop). Flights are up to 6 hours, can be done with the same flight crew on a roundtrip. Still the minimum fare is 140 USD – only available on some days, often way higher. allowing a merger would be crazy. I don't expect a drop of fares after Viva enters that market. On Colombia<>Mexico fares are similarly high with a lot of "low cost carriers" including Viva


Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see $140 for a 5.5 hour flight as outrageous.
Ex-BOG, $70 of that is taxes and airport charges so the airline is only getting $70 - that is probably below cost.
That is about the same as West Coast-Hawaii and people there would leap for joy if they could fly for $280 RT.
You are not going to see $10 Ryanair type fares because of the international taxes and fees.
 
Elgorou
Topic Author
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:54 pm

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:22 am

Exactly, international fights in South America are hevy taxes, usually mean more than a half of the final price at the lowers fares. For example a fligth beteewn SCL- BUE ( Buenos Aires) you pay $120 USD aprox only in taxes and fees
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:13 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see $140 for a 5.5 hour flight as outrageous.


It's the absolute minimum price on that route, only available on some days. Often 200-400 USD. Avianca goes up to 900 USD for no apparent reason.

Ryanair offers 10€ flights despite the costs are higher. The South American airlines need to learn to earn more with ancillaries and to have a 96% load factor. Then a minimum flight price of 50 USD on some days on Colombia<>Chile is doable.

Mendoza in Argentina to SCL it's already from 50 USD. Also the three hour flight Foz de Iguaçu in Brazil to SCL is from 50 USD. Despite the taxes.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4362
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:53 am

airlinenavigato wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see $140 for a 5.5 hour flight as outrageous.


It's the absolute minimum price on that route, only available on some days. Often 200-400 USD. Avianca goes up to 900 USD for no apparent reason.

Ryanair offers 10€ flights despite the costs are higher. The South American airlines need to learn to earn more with ancillaries and to have a 96% load factor. Then a minimum flight price of 50 USD on some days on Colombia<>Chile is doable.

Mendoza in Argentina to SCL it's already from 50 USD. Also the three hour flight Foz de Iguaçu in Brazil to SCL is from 50 USD. Despite the taxes.


Again, how can you have $50 fares when the taxes are $70? The Colombian taxes are very high - they even charge an exit tax if you are Colombian resident. Talk to your governments/airport authorities about lowering taxes and fees and come back.
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:37 am

usflyer msp wrote:
airlinenavigato wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see $140 for a 5.5 hour flight as outrageous.


It's the absolute minimum price on that route, only available on some days. Often 200-400 USD. Avianca goes up to 900 USD for no apparent reason.

Ryanair offers 10€ flights despite the costs are higher. The South American airlines need to learn to earn more with ancillaries and to have a 96% load factor. Then a minimum flight price of 50 USD on some days on Colombia<>Chile is doable.

Mendoza in Argentina to SCL it's already from 50 USD. Also the three hour flight Foz de Iguaçu in Brazil to SCL is from 50 USD. Despite the taxes.


Again, how can you have $50 fares when the taxes are $70? The Colombian taxes are very high - they even charge an exit tax if you are Colombian resident. Talk to your governments/airport authorities about lowering taxes and fees and come back.


Learn something about airline and especially ULCC pricing and come back :P

The 50 USD excludes a normal piece of hand luggage, seat selection, checked luggage and so on. Costumers wanting that easily pay 100 USD.

It's a mixed calculation depending on the demand. Let's say 10% of the offered flight departures have low demand. They get a 50 USD price tag. 10% of the departures have a rather low demand. They get a 60 USD price. And so on:

10% of all departing flights for 50 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 60 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 70 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 90 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 120 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 140 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 160 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 180 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 200 USD
another 10% of all departing flights for 250 USD

Departing flights with a high demand make so much profit to make low prices on low demand flights possible.
Last edited by 815253 on Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:49 am

airlinenavigato wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see $140 for a 5.5 hour flight as outrageous.


It's the absolute minimum price on that route, only available on some days. Often 200-400 USD. Avianca goes up to 900 USD for no apparent reason.

Ryanair offers 10€ flights despite the costs are higher. The South American airlines need to learn to earn more with ancillaries and to have a 96% load factor. Then a minimum flight price of 50 USD on some days on Colombia<>Chile is doable.

Mendoza in Argentina to SCL it's already from 50 USD. Also the three hour flight Foz de Iguaçu in Brazil to SCL is from 50 USD. Despite the taxes.

5.5hr for US$900 return trip is ridiculous? Come to this side of the world and let Aussies teach you a lesson on how much fare can be.

Michael
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:53 am

eamondzhang wrote:
airlinenavigato wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy but I don't see $140 for a 5.5 hour flight as outrageous.


It's the absolute minimum price on that route, only available on some days. Often 200-400 USD. Avianca goes up to 900 USD for no apparent reason.

Ryanair offers 10€ flights despite the costs are higher. The South American airlines need to learn to earn more with ancillaries and to have a 96% load factor. Then a minimum flight price of 50 USD on some days on Colombia<>Chile is doable.

Mendoza in Argentina to SCL it's already from 50 USD. Also the three hour flight Foz de Iguaçu in Brazil to SCL is from 50 USD. Despite the taxes.

5.5hr for US$900 return trip is ridiculous? Come to this side of the world and let Aussies teach you a lesson on how much fare can be.

Michael


my stated fares are one-way. I don't let myself be teached from high-fare airlines :P

Teach yourself from the pricing of Wizz Air and Ryanair!
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1953
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:56 am

airlinenavigato wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
airlinenavigato wrote:

It's the absolute minimum price on that route, only available on some days. Often 200-400 USD. Avianca goes up to 900 USD for no apparent reason.

Ryanair offers 10€ flights despite the costs are higher. The South American airlines need to learn to earn more with ancillaries and to have a 96% load factor. Then a minimum flight price of 50 USD on some days on Colombia<>Chile is doable.

Mendoza in Argentina to SCL it's already from 50 USD. Also the three hour flight Foz de Iguaçu in Brazil to SCL is from 50 USD. Despite the taxes.

5.5hr for US$900 return trip is ridiculous? Come to this side of the world and let Aussies teach you a lesson on how much fare can be.

Michael


my stated fares are one-way. I don't let myself be teached from high-fare airlines :P

Teach yourself from the pricing of Wizz Air and Ryanair!

We know that full well down this end - and knows full well on the consequence on pricings that are significantly lower than cost (hello Tiger Airways Australia, whose strategy of selling tickets that aren't even covering tax amount almost drove them to bankruptcy)

Michael
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:07 pm

In normal times Ryanair makes over 1 billion euros of profit with an average fare of 37€. Including 10€ offers
 
Elgorou
Topic Author
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:54 pm

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:21 pm

Obviously the ticket price change by demand, and not always the lowest fares are available. But none airline make profits selling tickets at $ 10 USD ( less if we talk a transcontinetal route at SCL-BOG). And Ryanair and Wizz now that, because its subsidiary airlines in South America cant have the same pricing scheme ( Viva air and Jetsmart), the diference, at Europe operations are hevy subsidy from some cities or states for promote the tourism, that afford selling tickets at very lows fares without risk bleeding money.
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:39 pm

Elgorou wrote:
But none airline make profits selling tickets at $ 10 USD


FR and W6 can make a profit with 10 USD flights by ancillaries. Even though 10 USD fares are not there to make a profit by itself, instead it's for marketing, to fill up a very low demand flight and possibly earn some money by ancillaries. In South America there are domestic 10-20 USD flights already.

Internationally in South America from 50 USD on some days would be a start.
 
815253
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:13 pm

i also post it here, as users here night not have read the Viva thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1465587

50USD flights to Colombia are already there!

Image
pic:Skyscanner

now Colombia needs to be connected with more countries for those fares.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3887
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Updated: Avianca denies intent to merge with SKY Airline

Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:39 am

This would actually make a lot of sense from a network standpoint and would allow AV to re-enter the peruvian market as a new entity with an entirely different cost structure, making it actually competitive. It does seem weird that the cheif at SKY would go public with the nnouncement for AV to deny it just after, did he break an NDA? Or is it a business mve? Probably the latter. Nonetheless, if it does happen this will give AV a competitive edge to reposition themselves as one of the two large competitors in the continent..

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