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xwb777
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Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:17 pm

At the sidelines of the IATA annual meeting in Boston, Royal Jordanian CEO Mr. Samer Al Majali, has stated that as the airline is recovering from the COVID19 pandemic, it is looking to expand its network and fleet.

The airline is considering leasing the A320NEO or B737MAX for narrowbody body and A220 or E2 for regional ops. The airline is also considering adding additional B787s.

The airline will also be recruiting additional flight deck crew, cabin crew and maintenance staff.

Precovid, the airline was considering launching additional U.S routes. Will the plan be revisited again? Their is a large Jordanian diaspora living in the US and Australia.


Source: https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... hief-says/
 
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Miami
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:51 pm

xwb777 wrote:
At the sidelines of the IATA annual meeting in Boston, Royal Jordanian CEO Mr. Samer Al Majali, has stated that as the airline is recovering from the COVID19 pandemic, it is looking to expand its network and fleet.

The airline is considering leasing the A320NEO or B737MAX for narrowbody body and A220 or E2 for regional ops. The airline is also considering adding additional B787s.

The airline will also be recruiting additional flight deck crew, cabin crew and maintenance staff.

Precovid, the airline was considering launching additional U.S routes. Will the plan be revisited again? Their is a large Jordanian diaspora living in the US and Australia.


Source: https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... hief-says/


Pre-COVID, RJ was talking to MIA about launching flights.

There is a decent amount of Jordanians in South Florida and with OneWorld, it may help make the thought become into a reality

Now, whether they ever launch service is yet to be determined but I’m sure talks with will resume in the future.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:54 pm

I would imagine IAD and LAX would probably be their next likely US routes.
 
xwb777
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:00 pm

I see RJ launching SYD flights. Maybe starting with a thrice weekly services.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:08 pm

With a modest-sized fleet and network, opening a route from Amman to Sydney would likely be a financial disaster. If RJ want to expand, it should be to places a little nearer home. Leave the intercontinental VFR SYD market to the ME3 instead
 
xwb777
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:24 pm

RJ wants to expand to Washington IAD, Europe and the Far East.

https://simpleflying-com.cdn.ampproject ... nsion/amp/
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:29 pm

xwb777 wrote:
I see RJ launching SYD flights. Maybe starting with a thrice weekly services.


Hahahahaha! While I'd love that as it would make for another decent route from Europe to Australia - and I love RJ, great service in Crown Class, not to mention awesome food - that's never going to happen :) Thanks for the laugh though!

I hope they expand and do well - they seem to have a decent niche, and who doesn't love Jordan? Such a lovely country with great people!
 
AirDO
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:35 am

xwb777 wrote:
At the sidelines of the IATA annual meeting in Boston, Royal Jordanian CEO Mr. Samer Al Majali, has stated that as the airline is recovering from the COVID19 pandemic, it is looking to expand its network and fleet.

The airline is considering leasing the A320NEO or B737MAX for narrowbody body and A220 or E2 for regional ops. The airline is also considering adding additional B787s.

The airline will also be recruiting additional flight deck crew, cabin crew and maintenance staff.

Precovid, the airline was considering launching additional U.S routes. Will the plan be revisited again? Their is a large Jordanian diaspora living in the US and Australia.


Source: https://www.thenationalnews.com/busines ... hief-says/

Replacing E-Jets and the A320ceo combined with 737 MAX is maybe the best choice in my opinion. Adding more 787's must be used to expand to MNL, CGK, PVG and IAD would be another right choice for RJ expansion.
 
smi0006
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:39 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
With a modest-sized fleet and network, opening a route from Amman to Sydney would likely be a financial disaster. If RJ want to expand, it should be to places a little nearer home. Leave the intercontinental VFR SYD market to the ME3 instead


As much as I’d leave to see RJ here no way - could a 789 even so AMM-SYD? I’ve never really heard much of the Jordanian diaspora here, didn’t realise it was that big. No way they could compete with ME3, plethora of Asian carriers, not to mention I’m sure one day TK.

I would love to see them better connect with QF ex-BKK/SIN. But QF sadly have EK for this role ex-AU.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:56 am

ClassicLover wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
I see RJ launching SYD flights. Maybe starting with a thrice weekly services.


Hahahahaha! While I'd love that as it would make for another decent route from Europe to Australia - and I love RJ, great service in Crown Class, not to mention awesome food - that's never going to happen :) Thanks for the laugh though!

I hope they expand and do well - they seem to have a decent niche, and who doesn't love Jordan? Such a lovely country with great people!

I had much opposite experience doing KUL-BKK with 787, the crew were rude, and gave me an impression they are trained in the army camp. After our meal, they came around to collect the menu card as if those few pieces of paper are made of gold. When one pax couldn't find his, they asked him to stand up and step aside while they searched for it. They found it stucked between the wall and the seat, on the floor. Don't think that gave a very good impression....lol

Back to the topic, wasn't RJ bleeding money for past few years? They didn't take up last few 787 they have on order, network has shrunk considerably too due to ME3 + TK onslaughter.
Last edited by RoyalBrunei757 on Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JeremyB
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:05 am

smi0006 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
With a modest-sized fleet and network, opening a route from Amman to Sydney would likely be a financial disaster. If RJ want to expand, it should be to places a little nearer home. Leave the intercontinental VFR SYD market to the ME3 instead


As much as I’d leave to see RJ here no way - could a 789 even so AMM-SYD? I’ve never really heard much of the Jordanian diaspora here, didn’t realise it was that big. No way they could compete with ME3, plethora of Asian carriers, not to mention I’m sure one day TK.

I would love to see them better connect with QF ex-BKK/SIN. But QF sadly have EK for this role ex-AU.


AMM-SYD is around 300nm shorter than PER-LHR so it would be possible, although they would need the 789 instead of the 788 they currently have and they would need a lighter configuration. Don't think it would be worth the investment to just open a route to SYD.
 
Blerg
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:29 am

This announcement could be a response to the recent Wizz Air and Ryanair expansion in the Jordanian market. They are probably sending them a message that they won't go down without a fight.

RJ needs transfer passengers to survive long-term. Introducing the A220 could be a great business move as the plane could be used on both regional and longer flights. With it I think they could easily reach as far as Brussels and Paris.
 
TObound
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:17 pm

Their current network is pretty interesting.


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMM-AUH%2F ... =wls&DU=nm

They have only 7 destinations that are over 2000nm (and BOM is 2129 nm, so barely counts). They have over 20 destinations that are under 1000nm from Amman. As such, I would think they would focus on a larger fleet of smaller aircraft so that they could boost frequencies to most of their destinations. I think a fleet of ~30 223s to replace the E-Jets, 319s, 320s and 321s makes sense. Add in more 787s to do double duty for long haul and heavy medium haul and they are set.

There are some really interesting possibilities if they look at the XLR. Opens some interesting destinations in Asia.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=amm-pek/pv ... 425&SU=mph
 
EChid
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:30 pm

My favourite current oddity of the RJ network is the DTW-YUL-AMM pairing. It'll be interesting to see where they go to next.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:42 pm

Interesting to see an A320 operator consider the 737 MAX. I don’t believe royal jordanian has ever flown 737s. They’ve transitioned some of the A320 leases in and out over the years.
 
B752OS
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:57 pm

xwb777 wrote:
RJ wants to expand to Washington IAD, Europe and the Far East.

https://simpleflying-com.cdn.ampproject ... nsion/amp/


Not surprising regarding IAD. The DC area, along with NYC/Northern NJ, Detroit, Chicago and LA makeup the largest populations of Jordanians in the US.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:27 pm

EChid wrote:
My favourite current oddity of the RJ network is the DTW-YUL-AMM pairing. It'll be interesting to see where they go to next.


Only if in winter - DTW and YUL have separate flights in the summer.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:46 pm

Blerg wrote:
RJ needs transfer passengers to survive long-term. Introducing the A220 could be a great business move as the plane could be used on both regional and longer flights. With it I think they could easily reach as far as Brussels and Paris.


There's just no need for another transit hub in that part of the world, and AMM doesn't have the O&D base ever to get the economies of IST.

As for the idea to downgauge and increase frequency, why, if you're not trying to run multiple connecting banks? IMHO they should be looking for commonality and low CASM. One narrowbody type plus the 787s.
 
TObound
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
RJ needs transfer passengers to survive long-term. Introducing the A220 could be a great business move as the plane could be used on both regional and longer flights. With it I think they could easily reach as far as Brussels and Paris.


There's just no need for another transit hub in that part of the world, and AMM doesn't have the O&D base ever to get the economies of IST.

As for the idea to downgauge and increase frequency, why, if you're not trying to run multiple connecting banks? IMHO they should be looking for commonality and low CASM. One narrowbody type plus the 787s.


Frequency does help with O/D. Especially on short and medium haul where there's lots of competing options. One flight per day is fine for long haul. It's not competitive for flights less than 5 hrs, when departure and arrival times start to matter more.

Also, RJ isn't very heavily concerned about CASM. Just look at their generous narrowbody layouts.
 
Blerg
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
RJ needs transfer passengers to survive long-term. Introducing the A220 could be a great business move as the plane could be used on both regional and longer flights. With it I think they could easily reach as far as Brussels and Paris.


There's just no need for another transit hub in that part of the world, and AMM doesn't have the O&D base ever to get the economies of IST.

As for the idea to downgauge and increase frequency, why, if you're not trying to run multiple connecting banks? IMHO they should be looking for commonality and low CASM. One narrowbody type plus the 787s.


That won't work, you said it yourself... they don't have the O&D major airports have meaning that now when they are being attacked by LCCs, they will have to fight them for little local demand there might be. They can't win that fight. They need to find a source of income elsewhere, similar to what BT did when they faced FR and W6.
No one said they should become a new TK.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:23 pm

AirDO wrote:
Replacing E-Jets and the A320ceo combined with 737 MAX is maybe the best choice in my opinion.


Why? Seems to me there are a few hurdles to take: E-Jets are smaller than the B737-M7 and the latter is heavier and thus less economical. And for introducing the M8/M9/M10 into the fleet, require retraining the entire flight crew, and perhaps new infrastructure. So added cost if everything else is equal. Why is it still the best choice in your opinion, what am I missing?
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirDO wrote:
Replacing E-Jets and the A320ceo combined with 737 MAX is maybe the best choice in my opinion.


Why? Seems to me there are a few hurdles to take: E-Jets are smaller than the B737-M7 and the latter is heavier and thus less economical. And for introducing the M8/M9/M10 into the fleet, require retraining the entire flight crew, and perhaps new infrastructure. So added cost if everything else is equal. Why is it still the best choice in your opinion, what am I missing?


The 737 can fly longer distances than an E-Jet and is a more competitive product. The larger capacity would offer more options into long-haul markets and thus allow RJ to serve more places in India, for example. RJ management likely have their reasons and see having a low-cost, higher-density fleet as way to increase volume into AMM.
 
a320fan
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:35 am

smi0006 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
With a modest-sized fleet and network, opening a route from Amman to Sydney would likely be a financial disaster. If RJ want to expand, it should be to places a little nearer home. Leave the intercontinental VFR SYD market to the ME3 instead


As much as I’d leave to see RJ here no way - could a 789 even so AMM-SYD? I’ve never really heard much of the Jordanian diaspora here, didn’t realise it was that big. No way they could compete with ME3, plethora of Asian carriers, not to mention I’m sure one day TK.

I would love to see them better connect with QF ex-BKK/SIN. But QF sadly have EK for this role ex-AU.


ElAl we’re planning to operate TLV-MEL (albeit not on a regular schedule initially) in 2020 before covid hit. That would be similar, if not slightly further, distance wise. Albeit as another poster mentioned above, with the 789 rather than the 788 like RJ have.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:10 pm

GDP per capita of Israel is roughly ten times that of Jordan. That means Israelis have a MUCH higher propensity to fly than Jordanians

Yes, there are also people living in Australia wishing to visit Israel and/or Jordan... but the GDP numbers suggest a much stronger business case for LY compared to RJ
 
OlympicATH
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:53 pm

Yes, but RJ operates a hub in AMM and would attract connecting pax from all over the Middle East (especially the Levant) and Europe (including TLV by the way).
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone would connect on El Al so they would rely exclusively on passengers originating in TLV.
I'm not saying it would work for RJ though - this would be a very long and thin route with fierce competition.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:29 am

OlympicATH wrote:
Yes, but RJ operates a hub in AMM and would attract connecting pax from all over the Middle East (especially the Levant) and Europe (including TLV by the way).
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone would connect on El Al so they would rely exclusively on passengers originating in TLV.
I'm not saying it would work for RJ though - this would be a very long and thin route with fierce competition.


Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ
RJ should focus on their regional and medium-haul before the much faster growing LCC like Air Arabia and flydubai take away their feeder pax
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:59 am

JeremyB wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
With a modest-sized fleet and network, opening a route from Amman to Sydney would likely be a financial disaster. If RJ want to expand, it should be to places a little nearer home. Leave the intercontinental VFR SYD market to the ME3 instead


As much as I’d leave to see RJ here no way - could a 789 even so AMM-SYD? I’ve never really heard much of the Jordanian diaspora here, didn’t realise it was that big. No way they could compete with ME3, plethora of Asian carriers, not to mention I’m sure one day TK.

I would love to see them better connect with QF ex-BKK/SIN. But QF sadly have EK for this role ex-AU.


AMM-SYD is around 300nm shorter than PER-LHR so it would be possible, although they would need the 789 instead of the 788 they currently have and they would need a lighter configuration. Don't think it would be worth the investment to just open a route to SYD.


To add, I was able to map it (and a offer another, perhaps more likely suggestion...).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-syd,+lhr-amm-syd,+lhr-per,+lhr-amm-per

Non-Stop:
LHR - SYD 060° (NE) 060° (NE) 10,573 mi

2 segment path:
LHR - AMM 112° (E) 112° (E) 2,292 mi
AMM - SYD 111° (E) 106° (E) 8,734 mi
11,026 mi
Added performance required, with the benefit of the stop...(+4.3%)

That said:

Non-Stop:
LHR - PER 092° (E) 092° (E) 9,009 mi

2 segment path:
LHR - AMM 112° (E) 112° (E) 2,292 mi
AMM - PER 122° (SE) 117° (SE) 6,817 mi
9,109 mi
Added performance required, with the benefit of the stop...(+1.1%)

An increased partnership, with QF could very much assist RJ to and/or allow QF to feed PER based incoming, with not much effort in the amount of route performance.

Where RJ should sell itself further, to assist this route (or any route to potential partners) would be access to more than modern Jordan, and Amman. Jordan's deep and historical religious links and sites could be celebrated better, and capitalized upon more. It's not a far sell for QF to be able to serve AMM, with less political risk than serving most other in the Levant (relative ease of access to Israel, as well as visits to sites like Petra, or the banks of the River Jordan (such as religious pilgrimages) can be better packaged to Australians, and many ex-pat Jordanians who might chose to bring their families with them and want to combine vacation with VFR), with a well established local carrier/partner, with the benefit of RJ potentially better employing their yields on their LHR services (if QF could not operate the AMM-LHR leg itself (due to slots, local laws, or other needs). This works even better, if everyone 'tip-toes' with less than daily services.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:18 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
JeremyB wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

As much as I’d leave to see RJ here no way - could a 789 even so AMM-SYD? I’ve never really heard much of the Jordanian diaspora here, didn’t realise it was that big. No way they could compete with ME3, plethora of Asian carriers, not to mention I’m sure one day TK.

I would love to see them better connect with QF ex-BKK/SIN. But QF sadly have EK for this role ex-AU.


AMM-SYD is around 300nm shorter than PER-LHR so it would be possible, although they would need the 789 instead of the 788 they currently have and they would need a lighter configuration. Don't think it would be worth the investment to just open a route to SYD.


To add, I was able to map it (and a offer another, perhaps more likely suggestion...).

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-syd,+lhr-amm-syd,+lhr-per,+lhr-amm-per

Non-Stop:
LHR - SYD 060° (NE) 060° (NE) 10,573 mi

2 segment path:
LHR - AMM 112° (E) 112° (E) 2,292 mi
AMM - SYD 111° (E) 106° (E) 8,734 mi
11,026 mi
Added performance required, with the benefit of the stop...(+4.3%)

That said:

Non-Stop:
LHR - PER 092° (E) 092° (E) 9,009 mi

2 segment path:
LHR - AMM 112° (E) 112° (E) 2,292 mi
AMM - PER 122° (SE) 117° (SE) 6,817 mi
9,109 mi
Added performance required, with the benefit of the stop...(+1.1%)

An increased partnership, with QF could very much assist RJ to and/or allow QF to feed PER based incoming, with not much effort in the amount of route performance.

Where RJ should sell itself further, to assist this route (or any route to potential partners) would be access to more than modern Jordan, and Amman. Jordan's deep and historical religious links and sites could be celebrated better, and capitalized upon more. It's not a far sell for QF to be able to serve AMM, with less political risk than serving most other in the Levant (relative ease of access to Israel, as well as visits to sites like Petra, or the banks of the River Jordan (such as religious pilgrimages) can be better packaged to Australians, and many ex-pat Jordanians who might chose to bring their families with them and want to combine vacation with VFR), with a well established local carrier/partner, with the benefit of RJ potentially better employing their yields on their LHR services (if QF could not operate the AMM-LHR leg itself (due to slots, local laws, or other needs). This works even better, if everyone 'tip-toes' with less than daily services.


Too much wishful thinking in the post to say at least. With Qantas sunrise I wonder why anyone should even stop in Jordian ? By now all aggrements between QF and EK rule AMM out
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:35 am

If TK hasn’t touched Australia, not sure how RJ could/would make it.
 
Blerg
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:00 am

oldJoe wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
Yes, but RJ operates a hub in AMM and would attract connecting pax from all over the Middle East (especially the Levant) and Europe (including TLV by the way).
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone would connect on El Al so they would rely exclusively on passengers originating in TLV.
I'm not saying it would work for RJ though - this would be a very long and thin route with fierce competition.


Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ
RJ should focus on their regional and medium-haul before the much faster growing LCC like Air Arabia and flydubai take away their feeder pax


By that logic, you could say that people would chose TK or QR over RJ for any market where they all operate. Passengers will chose an airline based on many different factors, one of them could be a smaller hub that is easier to navigate through. Not everyone likes to rush through a mega airport like IST.
I am not saying RJ should launch Australia, all I am saying is that we should not use some arguments lightly as was the case with EK and Australia. After all, if we went back 20 to 30 years and someone told you that people would no longer fly on Singapore Airlines or British Airways from Europe to Australia because they would be switching to this new airline called Emirates. What would you have told them back then?
 
Blerg
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:02 am

Dreamflight767 wrote:
If TK hasn’t touched Australia, not sure how RJ could/would make it.


TK has mentioned Australia a few times. Given their obsession to fly everywhere, I am sure Australia is somewhere in their plans. Don't forget that they have the Balkans right next door which is a massive source of passengers for anyone flying to Australia.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:10 am

Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
Yes, but RJ operates a hub in AMM and would attract connecting pax from all over the Middle East (especially the Levant) and Europe (including TLV by the way).
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone would connect on El Al so they would rely exclusively on passengers originating in TLV.
I'm not saying it would work for RJ though - this would be a very long and thin route with fierce competition.


Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ
RJ should focus on their regional and medium-haul before the much faster growing LCC like Air Arabia and flydubai take away their feeder pax


By that logic, you could say that people would chose TK or QR over RJ for any market where they all operate. Passengers will chose an airline based on many different factors, one of them could be a smaller hub that is easier to navigate through. Not everyone likes to rush through a mega airport like IST.
I am not saying RJ should launch Australia, all I am saying is that we should not use some arguments lightly as was the case with EK and Australia. After all, if we went back 20 to 30 years and someone told you that people would no longer fly on Singapore Airlines or British Airways from Europe to Australia because they would be switching to this new airline called Emirates. What would you have told them back then?


I chose for me my self comfort which means A380 whenever I can get on it which RJ can`t serve me !!!!
 
Blerg
Posts: 5770
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:54 am

oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote:
oldJoe wrote:

Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ
RJ should focus on their regional and medium-haul before the much faster growing LCC like Air Arabia and flydubai take away their feeder pax


By that logic, you could say that people would chose TK or QR over RJ for any market where they all operate. Passengers will chose an airline based on many different factors, one of them could be a smaller hub that is easier to navigate through. Not everyone likes to rush through a mega airport like IST.
I am not saying RJ should launch Australia, all I am saying is that we should not use some arguments lightly as was the case with EK and Australia. After all, if we went back 20 to 30 years and someone told you that people would no longer fly on Singapore Airlines or British Airways from Europe to Australia because they would be switching to this new airline called Emirates. What would you have told them back then?


I chose for me my self comfort which means A380 whenever I can get on it which RJ can`t serve me !!!!


Good for you however it's worth mentioning that EK's A380 and RJ's B787 have virtually the same seat pitch. Their Embraer jets have just one inch less.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:29 am

oldJoe wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
Yes, but RJ operates a hub in AMM and would attract connecting pax from all over the Middle East (especially the Levant) and Europe (including TLV by the way).
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone would connect on El Al so they would rely exclusively on passengers originating in TLV.
I'm not saying it would work for RJ though - this would be a very long and thin route with fierce competition.


Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ
RJ should focus on their regional and medium-haul before the much faster growing LCC like Air Arabia and flydubai take away their feeder pax


RJ is in Oneworld. A connecting flight LHR AMM BKK earns double BA tier points compared to direct with BA. Fly Business Class and you attain BA Silver to the end of your next tier year. I did this early 2020. Due to Covid BA has added a further year, so I can use lounges etc till end November 2022 on all Oneworld flying including simple JER LON.

There IS a market for connecting through AMM!
 
Ryga
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:03 am

ClassicLover wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
I see RJ launching SYD flights. Maybe starting with a thrice weekly services.


Hahahahaha! While I'd love that as it would make for another decent route from Europe to Australia - and I love RJ, great service in Crown Class, not to mention awesome food - that's never going to happen :) Thanks for the laugh though!

I hope they expand and do well - they seem to have a decent niche, and who doesn't love Jordan? Such a lovely country with great people!



Completely agree with everything said here.


Would be nice to see them add a couple of 789, they certainly could have filled one pre pandemic anyway!
 
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ClassicLover
Posts: 5573
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:51 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ


Hardly a waste of time, I once did DUB-BUD-AMM-BKK-SYD using Malev and Royal Jordanian.

I would happily fly LHR-AMM-HKG-SYD or things like that. The extra stop makes very little difference. RJ is very underrated.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:21 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ


Hardly a waste of time, I once did DUB-BUD-AMM-BKK-SYD using Malev and Royal Jordanian.

I would happily fly LHR-AMM-HKG-SYD or things like that. The extra stop makes very little difference. RJ is very underrated.


I have nothing against RJ or people who like to fly with them!
You didn't go into my example at all. If I want to fly from Frankfurt to New York, the flight with LH e.g. there and back takes 16 hours 40 minutes. With RJ including waiting times 54 hours 40 minutes and that's 38 hours of difference for the same result !
There were times when I flew the route twice a week and that meant wasted more than three days. Is this "hardly a waste of time" ?
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5573
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:05 pm

oldJoe wrote:
You didn't go into my example at all. If I want to fly from Frankfurt to New York, the flight with LH e.g. there and back takes 16 hours 40 minutes. With RJ including waiting times 54 hours 40 minutes and that's 38 hours of difference for the same result !
There were times when I flew the route twice a week and that meant wasted more than three days. Is this "hardly a waste of time" ?


Why would anyone fly Frankfurt to New York via Amman? Or via Doha, or Dubai, or Istanbul, or Abu Dhabi for that matter? It's a moot point. Why go in the opposite direction? You'd need to be saving serious money do do that.

The RJ destinations such as Europe to Asia or other places in the Middle East is what I was talking about. As if you'd fly transatlantic from Europe to the USA via the Middle East. Madness.
 
a320fan
Posts: 1112
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:08 pm

oldJoe wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.
There a even airports wich they don`t serve at all. MAN or HAM to Australia the choice is EK/QR and not RJ


Hardly a waste of time, I once did DUB-BUD-AMM-BKK-SYD using Malev and Royal Jordanian.

I would happily fly LHR-AMM-HKG-SYD or things like that. The extra stop makes very little difference. RJ is very underrated.


I have nothing against RJ or people who like to fly with them!
You didn't go into my example at all. If I want to fly from Frankfurt to New York, the flight with LH e.g. there and back takes 16 hours 40 minutes. With RJ including waiting times 54 hours 40 minutes and that's 38 hours of difference for the same result !
There were times when I flew the route twice a week and that meant wasted more than three days. Is this "hardly a waste of time" ?


FRA to JFK is a terrible example, why would anyone fly over half the length of flight in the opposite direction before then heading on to their destination when there is so many non stops or more convenient connection options. No one would chose AMM as a connection point on that route unless the fare was absolutely dirt cheap. Even if RJ built up a big connecting hub I doubt they’d even offer to sell such a route. The Middle East, Majority of Africa, Central Asia, East Asia and even though stretching the legs of aircraft capability, Oceana; would all be reasonable connection options, and are what the ME3 and TKs network is built on from Western European departure points.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:38 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
You didn't go into my example at all. If I want to fly from Frankfurt to New York, the flight with LH e.g. there and back takes 16 hours 40 minutes. With RJ including waiting times 54 hours 40 minutes and that's 38 hours of difference for the same result !
There were times when I flew the route twice a week and that meant wasted more than three days. Is this "hardly a waste of time" ?


Why would anyone fly Frankfurt to New York via Amman? Or via Doha, or Dubai, or Istanbul, or Abu Dhabi for that matter? It's a moot point. Why go in the opposite direction? You'd need to be saving serious money do do that.

The RJ destinations such as Europe to Asia or other places in the Middle East is what I was talking about. As if you'd fly transatlantic from Europe to the USA via the Middle East. Madness.


In my post #28 I said
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.

your answer was
Hardly a waste of time

Hence the example of FRA to JFK, which of course makes no sense at all.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5573
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:15 pm

oldJoe wrote:
In my post #28 I said
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.

your answer was
Hardly a waste of time

Hence the example of FRA to JFK, which of course makes no sense at all.


I was actually referring to this part of your post -

oldJoe wrote:
Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?


Hence why I went on to answer about going to Asia and giving my example. I completely ignored your example, and for good reason.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:04 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
In my post #28 I said
For example : CDG , LHR or FRA to any destination in the USA/Canada would be poor madness and waste of time.

your answer was
Hardly a waste of time

Hence the example of FRA to JFK, which of course makes no sense at all.


I was actually referring to this part of your post -

oldJoe wrote:
Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?


Hence why I went on to answer about going to Asia and giving my example. I completely ignored your example, and for good reason.


I have already taken the trouble to check RJ's current schedule before I write anything which you can download here :
https://rj.com/en/plan-and-book/track-flights/rjs-timetable
The only long haul destinations currently are JFK, DTW, ORD and YUL and nothing to Asia ! I can't see what was or will be from this timetable and that's exactly what I was referring to
 
Blerg
Posts: 5770
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:08 am

oldJoe wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
In my post #28 I said

your answer was
Hence the example of FRA to JFK, which of course makes no sense at all.


I was actually referring to this part of your post -

oldJoe wrote:
Connecting pax from Europe, are you joking ? Why somebody should fly with RJ to any long-haul destination they offer via AMM ?


Hence why I went on to answer about going to Asia and giving my example. I completely ignored your example, and for good reason.


I have already taken the trouble to check RJ's current schedule before I write anything which you can download here :
https://rj.com/en/plan-and-book/track-flights/rjs-timetable
The only long haul destinations currently are JFK, DTW, ORD and YUL and nothing to Asia ! I can't see what was or will be from this timetable and that's exactly what I was referring to


You answered your own question: right now.
You can't talk of an airline's long-term plans by looking at their current covid-inspired network. Also, what are you going on about. Their Asian network in October includes destinations such as Baghdad, Bahrain, Basra, Beirut, Dammam, Doha, Dubai, Erbil, Jeddah, Kuwait, Medina, Muscat, Riyadh, Sulaymaniyah and Tel Aviv.

All of those destinations connect onto their European and North American network. These are more than enough to make them competitive in their own league. Obviously you can't compare them to airlines such as Turkish Airlines or Qatar.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am

I don't think becoming yet another connecting hub will be successful. I think the EY already showed that the marked for connecting options in the middle east is saturated. For connecting traffic the price is one of the key deciding factors. And TK and the EK, QR and TK simply have the economies of scale to drive any serious competitor out. I think as a niche model it might work on flights to the US since there is some O&D demand and maybe China.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5770
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:27 pm

Capricorn wrote:
I don't think becoming yet another connecting hub will be successful. I think the EY already showed that the marked for connecting options in the middle east is saturated. For connecting traffic the price is one of the key deciding factors. And TK and the EK, QR and TK simply have the economies of scale to drive any serious competitor out. I think as a niche model it might work on flights to the US since there is some O&D demand and maybe China.


I don't think EY's issues were caused by market saturation, they were grossly mismanaged by Hogan and his team. Had they not gone on a shopping spree (both planes and airlines) they would have become a stable and successful airline. There is also geography to consider. EY was sandwiched between QR and EK while RJ has no immediate threat, at least not within 2 hours flying time (if not more). In addition to that, AMM is better located to serve the Middle East and even some parts of Africa as it requires less backtracking.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:57 pm

Blerg wrote :
Also, what are you going on about. Their Asian network in October includes destinations such as Baghdad, Bahrain, Basra, Beirut, Dammam, Doha, Dubai, Erbil, Jeddah, Kuwait, Medina, Muscat, Riyadh, Sulaymaniyah and Tel Aviv.


Since when one of these destinations are in Asia ? All are considered in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East
 
Eiszeit
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:50 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:22 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote :
Also, what are you going on about. Their Asian network in October includes destinations such as Baghdad, Bahrain, Basra, Beirut, Dammam, Doha, Dubai, Erbil, Jeddah, Kuwait, Medina, Muscat, Riyadh, Sulaymaniyah and Tel Aviv.


Since when one of these destinations are in Asia ? All are considered in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East


The "Middle East" ist part of Asia so they all destinations are in Asia...
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:46 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote :
Also, what are you going on about. Their Asian network in October includes destinations such as Baghdad, Bahrain, Basra, Beirut, Dammam, Doha, Dubai, Erbil, Jeddah, Kuwait, Medina, Muscat, Riyadh, Sulaymaniyah and Tel Aviv.


Since when one of these destinations are in Asia ? All are considered in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East


The "Middle East" ist part of Asia so they all destinations are in Asia...


Interesting that EK - EY - GF -. KU - LY - MS - QR - SV - WY are all Asian airlines ?
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4339
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:48 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Blerg wrote :
Also, what are you going on about. Their Asian network in October includes destinations such as Baghdad, Bahrain, Basra, Beirut, Dammam, Doha, Dubai, Erbil, Jeddah, Kuwait, Medina, Muscat, Riyadh, Sulaymaniyah and Tel Aviv.


Since when one of these destinations are in Asia ? All are considered in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East


Did you even read the first paragraph that states: “The region includes the vast majority of the territories included in the closely associated definition of Western Asia, but without the Caucasus and including all of Egypt, and not just the Sinai Peninsula.” Key part - Western Asia.
 
runway23
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Royal Jordanian Expansion: Looking at A320NEO, B737MAX; additional Dreamliners

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:57 pm

Blerg wrote:
There is also geography to consider. EY was sandwiched between QR and EK while RJ has no immediate threat, at least not within 2 hours flying time (if not more). In addition to that, AMM is better located to serve the Middle East and even some parts of Africa as it requires less backtracking.


CAI is a much larger hub and market than AMM and located less than 2 hours away. IST isn't that far away either. MS has a lot more depth in their network, a larger home base, larger domestic market.

AMM is, by your definition, sandwiched between IST and the ME3 hubs. Geographically except a few intra-levant connections RJ brings nothing to the table that isn't served from CAI or even BEY (other than perhaps a flight to TLV). RJ will remain a niche player with a focus on serving its home market and there's nothing wrong about that.

JerseyFlyer wrote:
RJ is in Oneworld. A connecting flight LHR AMM BKK earns double BA tier points compared to direct with BA. Fly Business Class and you attain BA Silver to the end of your next tier year. I did this early 2020. Due to Covid BA has added a further year, so I can use lounges etc till end November 2022 on all Oneworld flying including simple JER LON.

There IS a market for connecting through AMM!


The number of people chasing status is in the scheme of things low and negligible. Most people who do are likely to choose QR and what remains is just fairly low yield status chasers that might go for RJ.

Blerg wrote:
RJ needs transfer passengers to survive long-term. Introducing the A220 could be a great business move as the plane could be used on both regional and longer flights. With it I think they could easily reach as far as Brussels and Paris.


Easily doable with a 223. AC does routes such as YUL-YYJ/SEA/YLW which are slightly longer. LX has operated/operates flights from GVA to Egypt and Jordan with their 223s.

TObound wrote:
They have only 7 destinations that are over 2000nm (and BOM is 2129 nm, so barely counts). They have over 20 destinations that are under 1000nm from Amman. As such, I would think they would focus on a larger fleet of smaller aircraft so that they could boost frequencies to most of their destinations. I think a fleet of ~30 223s to replace the E-Jets, 319s, 320s and 321s makes sense. Add in more 787s to do double duty for long haul and heavy medium haul and they are set.


30 223s is a pretty massive expansion from the current number of 17 narrowbodies they have. I do agree though that RJ doesn't need two narrowbody aircraft types and they should settle for one.

Their 787s already operates daily to LHR and does a few flights to IST, DXB. Ordering more 787s for long-haul expansion and using them, as you suggested, on busier routes doesn't seem to be a bad idea, especially if it is mixed with ordering a smaller, more efficient aircraft, such as the 223 that could potentially enable them to increase frequencies and remove triangle/tag routes.

IMHO, RJ's bigger problem is the fairly low frequencies they operate on most routes and the fact that they still operate with tags on some of those routes.

At one point operating tags or triangle routes such as ZRH-GVA, YUL-DTW, BKK-HKG, MUC-FRA has to stop. These are all markets they have served for years/decades and have seen close to zero growth.

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