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lightsaber
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Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:33 am

Gulfstream has finally launched the G400. The delayed launch was driving me insane as... sources told me about the PW812 long ago for Gulfstream. This concept was in discussion forever it seems.
https://aviationweek.com/business-aviat ... -g800-jets

Slotted between the super-midsize G280 and the larger G500/G600, the G400, powered by twin Pratt & Whitney PW812GA turbofans, will fly to a maximum range of 4,200 nm at Mach 0.85 with eight passengers, three crew and NBAA instrument flight rules (IFR) fuel reserves. The base price of the new jet, slated to enter service in 2025, will be $34.5 million, plus options.

8 passengers at 4200nm implies many longer missions with one to three passengers.

The G800 is G650 sized with more range. Interesting, a shrink of the G700 for range. I had no idea this was in development.

Lightsaber
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
I had no idea this was in development.

Lightsaber


I think that the ethics at GLF must be exceptional. They have programs far into development and not so much as a public leak. That takes dedication from employees to not shoot their mouth.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:54 am

Gosh G800 is a bit of a misleading name for their jet. I thought it would be longer than the 700. Does anyone really need 8,000nm?
 
Max Q
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:17 am

I think in this rarefied corner of the market, additional capability will always sell, with an 8000NM range NY-HKG for example is possible year round and it brings new possibilities to fly faster between other city pairs



Even if the maximum range isn’t used, bragging rights count for a lot with high net worth individuals


What’s puzzling is that Gulfstream didn’t develop their largest product to have this performance



I’m sure Bombardier will respond with a longer ranged Global 7500 that will also have a larger cabin
 
hitchy81
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:46 am

Max Q wrote:
I think in this rarefied corner of the market, additional capability will always sell, with an 8000NM range NY-HKG for example is possible year round and it brings new possibilities to fly faster between other city pairs



Even if the maximum range isn’t used, bragging rights count for a lot with high net worth individuals


What’s puzzling is that Gulfstream didn’t develop their largest product to have this performance



I’m sure Bombardier will respond with a longer ranged Global 7500 that will also have a larger cabin



It does seem odd that the G800 offers 500nm more range than the G700 but does so by sacrificing the bedroom. I would imagine that anyone planning to spend even more time in the air would want the bedroom. Bombardier's Global 7500 already offers 7700nm of range, so perhaps with some minor tweaking they could match or beat the G800's range while maintaining the full-size cabin, a Global 7500ER.

The G400 is a more difficult challenge, likely spelling the end of the road for the venerable Challenger 650.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:27 pm

The G800 competes against the proposed Global 8000 (cancelled as the 7000 was promoted to 7500 based on besting range promise). If Bombardier counters, I too suspect a higher MTOW and stuffing more fuel somewhere (I have no idea where there is volume, to be honest). Perhaps something as simple as GE putting more CMCs into the engine? A small reduction in fuel burn adds a lot of range.

hitchy81 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
I think in this rarefied corner of the market, additional capability will always sell, with an 8000NM range NY-HKG for example is possible year round and it brings new possibilities to fly faster between other city pairs



Even if the maximum range isn’t used, bragging rights count for a lot with high net worth individuals


What’s puzzling is that Gulfstream didn’t develop their largest product to have this performance



I’m sure Bombardier will respond with a longer ranged Global 7500 that will also have a larger cabin



It does seem odd that the G800 offers 500nm more range than the G700 but does so by sacrificing the bedroom. I would imagine that anyone planning to spend even more time in the air would want the bedroom. Bombardier's Global 7500 already offers 7700nm of range, so perhaps with some minor tweaking they could match or beat the G800's range while maintaining the full-size cabin, a Global 7500ER.

The G400 is a more difficult challenge, likely spelling the end of the road for the venerable Challenger 650.

The G400 does compete vs. the Challenger 650.
G400 (my OP link,): $34.5 million (base)
C650 $32.5 (base)
https://air.one/aircraft-showroom/bomba ... %20rows%20

I've read anything within 20% of the same price competes with each other. So this will shake up the Large size market (In my opinion, G450 production ceased as it just wasn't competitive anymore).

I find it facinating Dassault pays for wing and flaps, but uses the engines of the next bracket down:
6X is $49.5 million, not in direct competition despite also using the PW812:
https://air.one/aircraft-showroom/bomba ... %20rows%20

The third possibility for the same engine is the Cessna Hemisphere (or whatever an enlarged model is called, if launched).

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N965UW
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:33 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh G800 is a bit of a misleading name for their jet. I thought it would be longer than the 700. Does anyone really need 8,000nm?


Similar with the G400 vs. G450. Those who aren't enthusiasts like us might think the 450 (launched in 2004) is more modern than the brand new 400.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:40 pm

The G800 is similar in a way to the cancelled Global 8000–both involved shortened fuselage to reduce weight and drag to gain range. Poor trade-off, IMO. None of these designs provide real crew rest facilities but the average flight is only 2.6 hours anyway.

The true bedroom has been very popular with buyers. A G7500 recently did MEL to OKC, non-stop with 9 pax, so some will use it. 16.3, IIRC

The G400 will kill off the Challenger 600s and the Falcon 2000. It is exactly what BBD should have designed instead of the LR85 fiasco.
 
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The G400 will kill off the Challenger 600s and the Falcon 2000. It is exactly what BBD should have designed instead of the LR85 fiasco.

Agreed. The G400 is going to have a nice niche.

4 years ago was discussing the P42. That was the earlier project name for the G400. Ok, I'm amused, I thought there would be a 3 engine 9X, instead a two engine 10X. (Hey, I'm an enthusiast too, projects change.) In 4th post:

viewtopic.php?t=1360323

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2eng2efficient
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:12 pm

*only* Mach 0.85? Isn’t the competition going faster? Or is that an economical long range cruise speed?
 
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:59 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
*only* Mach 0.85? Isn’t the competition going faster? Or is that an economical long range cruise speed?

That is economical cruising and for a $34.5 million plane (discussing G400 here). Top speed is Mach 0.9:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/gulf ... 71014.html

Its head to head competition is the Challenger 650 which is slower at Mach 0.8.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombard ... 600_series

The main thing is a large cabin for the price.
6' 2" cabin height (I expected more, but cest la vie).
7' 7" cabin width.

You are probably comparing speed to far more expensive jets. Anything above 20% more expensive is clearly in another market. The same with anything 20% cheaper. Business jets are a mature market stratified by price point. The Challenger 650 soundly pushed the G450/GIV out of this niche; Gulfstream is taking the niche back (note: my opinion is this isn't a huge niche anymore and thus room for only one aircraft).

Lightsaber

Late edit: If you were discussing the G800, max cruise Mach 0.925, but anything above Mach 0.9 is wasteful on fuel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulfstr ... /G700/G800
 
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:04 am

I finally found a link on the competition stackup:

https://aviationweek.com/shownews/nbaa/ ... -conundrum


G400 $34.5 million, 91" wide cabin 36.3 ft long, 4200 nm at Mach 0.85

Dassault 2000 $34 million, 90" wide cabin 26.2 ft long, 4000nm at Mach 0.80

Current category champion:
Challenger 650, $32 million, 95" wide cabin, 26.2 feet long, 4000nm at Mach 0.8

So a much longer cabin (10 ft, 3m), slightly more range, slightly more speed for a few percent more at purchase.

I believe we have a new category champion. I'm shocked at how little more it costs as I estimate the engines alone add $2.5 million to the cost, if not a little more.

It will be an interesting business jet market in a few years.

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N47
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:39 am

8000 nmi, that is pretty impressive. Shame gulfstream are not in the pax jet business. They are some of the most beautiful jets, inside and out. Globals come in close second.

I wonder if the FAA/DOT will replace its ageing GIV (N1) thats based in DCA with the G400.
 
wezgulf3
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:25 am

N47 wrote:
8000 nmi, that is pretty impressive. Shame gulfstream are not in the pax jet business. They are some of the most beautiful jets, inside and out. Globals come in close second.

I wonder if the FAA/DOT will replace its ageing GIV (N1) thats based in DCA with the G400.


N1 hasn’t been on an active jet for about a year. If they use it again (it’s currently just a reservation) I would assume it would be long before the G400 is in service.

Wes…
 
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GCT64
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:44 pm

N965UW wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh G800 is a bit of a misleading name for their jet. I thought it would be longer than the 700. Does anyone really need 8,000nm?


Similar with the G400 vs. G450. Those who aren't enthusiasts like us might think the 450 (launched in 2004) is more modern than the brand new 400.


Even more confusingly, Gulfstream bullt a load of G400s in 2003-2005 which are still in service (and a number of G500s between 2004-2009 also all still in service) which are not connected to the new G400 or G500. Given that they had so many possible type designations to pick from, why reuse a recent designation and cuase confusion?

It's like they have forgotten that only 15-20 years ago they called different planes the G400 and G500. Very strange.
 
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:59 pm

GCT64 wrote:
N965UW wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh G800 is a bit of a misleading name for their jet. I thought it would be longer than the 700. Does anyone really need 8,000nm?


Similar with the G400 vs. G450. Those who aren't enthusiasts like us might think the 450 (launched in 2004) is more modern than the brand new 400.


Even more confusingly, Gulfstream bullt a load of G400s in 2003-2005 which are still in service (and a number of G500s between 2004-2009 also all still in service) which are not connected to the new G400 or G500. Given that they had so many possible type designations to pick from, why reuse a recent designation and cuase confusion?

It's like they have forgotten that only 15-20 years ago they called different planes the G400 and G500. Very strange.

The old G400 and G500 were crippled versions of the G450 and G550.

With 3rd party avionics upgrades available, I would be surprised if many weren't upgraded to the longer range stablemates, so there might be no in service confusion anyway.
https://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear ... t-upgrade/


Old products, Gx50
New products Gx00

This is simple marketing. From what I can tell, old G400s are called G350s now or as certified GIV- or GV.

Since those old ones were rare planes, I don't see any issues.

Was: G100/G150/G200, G450, G550, G650 Range had nothing to do with each model # other than bigger is better.

Is: G280 G400, G500, G600, G700, G800 all based on approximate range.

You get one guess on the next new model number?

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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:22 pm

No accounting for marketing types.
 
Newark727
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Re: Gulfstream launches G400 and G800

Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:26 pm

Maybe they hired the same guy who's in charge of naming Infinitis.

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