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ztarizona
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Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:58 am

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/africa/e ... index.html

As I know Ethiopian to be a passenger carrier, curious what, if any, consequences and/or international sanction(s) could come from their alliance partners if the accusations are proved to be true. Curious if passenger aircraft have ever before been conscripted for such a purpose elsewhere/other times?
 
Galwayman
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:59 am

US airlines do a lot of military work too as some sort of strategic work, and Tigray is domestic part of Ethiopia so can't see it being an issue ...
 
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Polot
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:18 pm

Galwayman wrote:
US airlines do a lot of military work too as some sort of strategic work, and Tigray is domestic part of Ethiopia so can't see it being an issue ...

US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

It doesn’t matter if it is domestic. If you are transporting military weaponry it should be done on military aircraft, not civil ones operating commercially.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:55 pm

Please keep this thread focused on discussing aviation. The political aspects can be discussed in Non Av.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:38 pm

Polot wrote:
US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

US airlines can and do transport military cargo for the US government; I'm not sure about munitions, though, due to their inherently risky nature.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:05 pm

Polot wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
US airlines do a lot of military work too as some sort of strategic work, and Tigray is domestic part of Ethiopia so can't see it being an issue ...

US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

It doesn’t matter if it is domestic. If you are transporting military weaponry it should be done on military aircraft, not civil ones operating commercially.


Why is that? In the Soviet Union for example, no such distinction was made, and civilian maritime shipping sails with military equipment all the time.
 
2175301
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:06 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
Polot wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
US airlines do a lot of military work too as some sort of strategic work, and Tigray is domestic part of Ethiopia so can't see it being an issue ...

US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

It doesn’t matter if it is domestic. If you are transporting military weaponry it should be done on military aircraft, not civil ones operating commercially.


Why is that? In the Soviet Union for example, no such distinction was made, and civilian maritime shipping sails with military equipment all the time.


Ocean going ships are not bound to the Chicago International Aviation Agreement. Civilian Airlines are.

If the nations chose to enforce the Chicago Convention... Ethiopian Airlines could be prohibited from flying any international flights for an extended period of time. They also could be banned from procuring parts and services from international vendors.

Now the question is... Is the world going to enforce the Chicago Convention, or just ignore it....
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:24 pm

2175301 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
Polot wrote:
US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

It doesn’t matter if it is domestic. If you are transporting military weaponry it should be done on military aircraft, not civil ones operating commercially.


Why is that? In the Soviet Union for example, no such distinction was made, and civilian maritime shipping sails with military equipment all the time.


Ocean going ships are not bound to the Chicago International Aviation Agreement. Civilian Airlines are.

If the nations chose to enforce the Chicago Convention... Ethiopian Airlines could be prohibited from flying any international flights for an extended period of time. They also could be banned from procuring parts and services from international vendors.

Now the question is... Is the world going to enforce the Chicago Convention, or just ignore it....


Nothing is going to happen. ET is too essential to African economies - on many routes they are literally the only choice. I don't really think most of the world thinks carrying military weapons in a 100% government owned carrier is a big deal.
 
kalvado
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:47 pm

2175301 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
Polot wrote:
US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

It doesn’t matter if it is domestic. If you are transporting military weaponry it should be done on military aircraft, not civil ones operating commercially.


Why is that? In the Soviet Union for example, no such distinction was made, and civilian maritime shipping sails with military equipment all the time.


Ocean going ships are not bound to the Chicago International Aviation Agreement. Civilian Airlines are.

If the nations chose to enforce the Chicago Convention... Ethiopian Airlines could be prohibited from flying any international flights for an extended period of time. They also could be banned from procuring parts and services from international vendors.

Now the question is... Is the world going to enforce the Chicago Convention, or just ignore it....

Which exact provision of Chicago convention are you referring to?
The only more or less applicable part is Part 3 (b) as far as I can tell, and even then it would cover specific aircraft, not operator. Even then, transporting military cargo is not a clear cut designation - I would argue that any FedEx aircraft carrying DoD box is on the same page.
 
johns624
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:37 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Polot wrote:
US airlines are not transporting military weaponry (the US military would never allow that). Their “military work” is primarily shuttling troops to and from bases.

US airlines can and do transport military cargo for the US government; I'm not sure about munitions, though, due to their inherently risky nature.
Small arms ammo is considered ORM-D, not a really big deal.
The article also mentioned "smuggling". If the transfer was between two legitimate governments, which it appears it was, I don't think that would apply.
 
2175301
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:14 pm

kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:

Why is that? In the Soviet Union for example, no such distinction was made, and civilian maritime shipping sails with military equipment all the time.


Ocean going ships are not bound to the Chicago International Aviation Agreement. Civilian Airlines are.

If the nations chose to enforce the Chicago Convention... Ethiopian Airlines could be prohibited from flying any international flights for an extended period of time. They also could be banned from procuring parts and services from international vendors.

Now the question is... Is the world going to enforce the Chicago Convention, or just ignore it....

Which exact provision of Chicago convention are you referring to?
The only more or less applicable part is Part 3 (b) as far as I can tell, and even then it would cover specific aircraft, not operator. Even then, transporting military cargo is not a clear cut designation - I would argue that any FedEx aircraft carrying DoD box is on the same page.


I stand corrected; and the CNN article has it wrong. This is not a violation of the Chicago Convention; but, there are still reasons to avoid such shipments.

1st: Tigray is a territory of Ethiopia, and thus flights within Ethiopia are not international in scope; and thus the Chicago Convention and IACO rules do not apply.

2nd: The Key Words are "munitions" and "implements of war" - not just military supplies. See Article 35 of the Chicago convention.

3rd: This goes beyond the Chicago Convention. While Nations could agree to transport munitions in passenger aircraft (with passengers onboard) in accordance with Article 35 of the Chicago Convention; they also make such civilian aircraft a legitimate military target. They could be convicted of war crimes for using civilians to shield key military supplies - and held responsible for all civilian deaths from the shoot down of such aircraft.

Have a great day,
 
kalvado
Posts: 3389
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:38 pm

2175301 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:

Ocean going ships are not bound to the Chicago International Aviation Agreement. Civilian Airlines are.

If the nations chose to enforce the Chicago Convention... Ethiopian Airlines could be prohibited from flying any international flights for an extended period of time. They also could be banned from procuring parts and services from international vendors.

Now the question is... Is the world going to enforce the Chicago Convention, or just ignore it....

Which exact provision of Chicago convention are you referring to?
The only more or less applicable part is Part 3 (b) as far as I can tell, and even then it would cover specific aircraft, not operator. Even then, transporting military cargo is not a clear cut designation - I would argue that any FedEx aircraft carrying DoD box is on the same page.


I stand corrected; and the CNN article has it wrong. This is not a violation of the Chicago Convention; but, there are still reasons to avoid such shipments.

1st: Tigray is a territory of Ethiopia, and thus flights within Ethiopia are not international in scope; and thus the Chicago Convention and IACO rules do not apply.

2nd: The Key Words are "munitions" and "implements of war" - not just military supplies. See Article 35 of the Chicago convention.

3rd: This goes beyond the Chicago Convention. While Nations could agree to transport munitions in passenger aircraft (with passengers onboard) in accordance with Article 35 of the Chicago Convention; they also make such civilian aircraft a legitimate military target. They could be convicted of war crimes for using civilians to shield key military supplies - and held responsible for all civilian deaths from the shoot down of such aircraft.

Have a great day,

Sounds at least as dedicated flights. so "human shield" is irrelevant.
And, for reference, I can see some people with "implements of war" in their hands deboarding from what looks like a US registered civil aircraft. Caption implies international flight.
Image
 
mxaxai
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:42 pm

johns624 wrote:
The article also mentioned "smuggling". If the transfer was between two legitimate governments, which it appears it was, I don't think that would apply.

Even if it was smuggling (which doesn't appear to be the case anyway), there is no international treaty that would permit third party states to intervene without the request of one of the states whose border is being trespassed. If there was a UN treaty with internationally enforced embargoes, sure, but general smuggling is not enough.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:47 pm

ztarizona wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/africa/ethiopian-airlines-investigation-tigray-war-intl-cmd/index.html

As I know Ethiopian to be a passenger carrier, curious what, if any, consequences and/or international sanction(s) could come from their alliance partners if the accusations are proved to be true. Curious if passenger aircraft have ever before been conscripted for such a purpose elsewhere/other times?



Well there is this rumour:

On 28 November 1987, a Boeing 747-200B Combi (registration ZS-SAS and named Helderberg), operating as Flight 295, crashed in the Indian Ocean en route from Taipei, Taiwan to Johannesburg via Mauritius, after a fire in the main cargo hold. The cause of the fire is undetermined, and a number of conspiracy theories (mostly pertaining to the nuclear armaments being produced by the South African government at the time) are in circulation surrounding the crash. All 159 people on board were killed


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Afr ... _incidents
 
kalvado
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:00 pm

Mortyman wrote:
ztarizona wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/africa/ethiopian-airlines-investigation-tigray-war-intl-cmd/index.html

As I know Ethiopian to be a passenger carrier, curious what, if any, consequences and/or international sanction(s) could come from their alliance partners if the accusations are proved to be true. Curious if passenger aircraft have ever before been conscripted for such a purpose elsewhere/other times?



Well there is this rumour:

On 28 November 1987, a Boeing 747-200B Combi (registration ZS-SAS and named Helderberg), operating as Flight 295, crashed in the Indian Ocean en route from Taipei, Taiwan to Johannesburg via Mauritius, after a fire in the main cargo hold. The cause of the fire is undetermined, and a number of conspiracy theories (mostly pertaining to the nuclear armaments being produced by the South African government at the time) are in circulation surrounding the crash. All 159 people on board were killed


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Afr ... _incidents

I wonder how often contraband - state sanctioned or otherwise - can be a cause of problem.
If I remember correctly, there was a fire within textile cargo on one of SQ flights. Some liquid smelling like alcohol was recovered from the burnt load. Apparently analysis wasn't performed, and shippers ignored investigator's requests.
 
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africawings
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:03 pm

You can rest assured that I'll not be flying on Ethiopian anytime soon for the following reasons: 1 They are in a Civil War. 2 They are being accused of ferrying weapons for the military. 3 They can be mistaken for a military target by the opposing forces.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:21 pm

This is CNN trying to make something out of having been provided with some purported waybills. The rest is pure speculation. Poorly-sourced article legally. Nothing to see here.

Doesn't mean someone won't try to make something out of it, though. Which is probably why it's there in the first place.
 
johns624
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:10 pm

mxaxai wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The article also mentioned "smuggling". If the transfer was between two legitimate governments, which it appears it was, I don't think that would apply.

Even if it was smuggling (which doesn't appear to be the case anyway), there is no international treaty that would permit third party states to intervene without the request of one of the states whose border is being trespassed. If there was a UN treaty with internationally enforced embargoes, sure, but general smuggling is not enough.
There is no third party. The Ethiopian and Eritrean governments are combining to suppress a rebellion of an Ethiopian province that borders Eritrea.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines accused of transporting munitions into Tigray

Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:28 pm

Since politics cannot be kept out of this thread, it is being locked. Feel free to start a non-aviation thread.

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