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Opus99
Posts: 2998
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:58 pm

amdiesen wrote:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OhUhdCMuo8jiSs5oVUfyon-f35gYWWfT/view?usp=sharing
adopted from the CargoFacts 'Widebody Characteristics Graph'

tomcat wrote:
The 773ERSF is more than 30 feet longer than the 77F and it can take the same max payload as the latter...

tomcat wrote:
I would think that for the XF Boeing will select the largest length possible that will still allow the same max payload density as the 772F
Within the constraints of the laws of physics and the laws on economics, do these statements make sense to you or any other intellectually honest data driven poster?


tomcat wrote:
Compared to a converted aircraft, the 777XF will be costly to acquire in any case.
Compared to the A350F the 777XF will be costly to acquire.

tomcat wrote:
What matters for it to be a profitable investment for Boeing is that it will come with a unique selling point that is addressing a market large enough. ...
What is unique about the 777XF?
..existing infrastructure? ..drop tail? ..utility? ..revenue generation/TCO?

Doesn’t seem like FedEx agrees with you on the price front. They recently spoke about the fact that it will cost money to move to the 350F and have that fleet of aircraft, because of retraining. Don’t just say things for the sake of saying them, you have to bring your reasoning and sources to back up your statements.

The XF will be unique as it will be the largest new build freighter available. That’s it’s USP and will probably burn about 35% less fuel than the 747 whilst giving you more volume or at least the same
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:20 pm

amdiesen wrote:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OhUhdCMuo8jiSs5oVUfyon-f35gYWWfT/view?usp=sharing
adopted from the CargoFacts 'Widebody Characteristics Graph'

tomcat wrote:
The 773ERSF is more than 30 feet longer than the 77F and it can take the same max payload as the latter...

tomcat wrote:
I would think that for the XF Boeing will select the largest length possible that will still allow the same max payload density as the 772F

Within the constraints of the laws of physics and the laws on economics, do these statements make sense to you or any other intellectually honest data driven poster?


Yep, they do. It's rather the graph that doesn't make sense to me, in particular the stated max payload of the 772F. I'm not aware of that 110t max payload for the 772F. By the way, you felt the need to correct the graph for the A350F so what makes you think that the graph is correct for any other aircraft included on it?


amdiesen wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Compared to a converted aircraft, the 777XF will be costly to acquire in any case.
Compared to the A350F the 777XF will be costly to acquire.

Yes, and? You are indeed confirming my point. The 777XF will not come cheap.

amdiesen wrote:
tomcat wrote:
What matters for it to be a profitable investment for Boeing is that it will come with a unique selling point that is addressing a market large enough. ...
What is unique about the 777XF?
..existing infrastructure? ..drop tail? ..utility? ..revenue generation/TCO?

I don't know what will be unique about the 777XF, I'm not in direct contact with Boeing. I'm just expecting that since it will be costly (as you seem to agree) and that the low density market is pretty busy with the A333 and 77W P2F programs, it should come with some unique capabilities to justify its price tag. It could be a higher max payload than any aircraft currently or soon to be on the market, combined with a high density capability and or a greater payload/range proposal. Otherwise why would Boeing build it? Just for the fuel saving over the 773ERSF?
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 4487
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm

tomcat wrote:
Otherwise why would Boeing build it? Just for the fuel saving over the 773ERSF?


tomcat wrote:
and that the low density market is pretty busy with the A333 and 77W P2F programs,


Or perhaps the conversion shops would be too busy to fulfill all the cargo requirement for the next 20 years?

bt
 
tomcat
Posts: 854
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:46 pm

bikerthai wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Otherwise why would Boeing build it? Just for the fuel saving over the 773ERSF?


tomcat wrote:
and that the low density market is pretty busy with the A333 and 77W P2F programs,


Or perhaps the conversion shops would be too busy to fulfill all the cargo requirement for the next 20 years?

bt


Then even an A380 P2F program could have a chance :-). And there are plenty of A380s being retired. Mind you, the A388 was designed with cargo conversion in mind at the expense of a reduced efficiency.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2658
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:41 pm

Opus99 wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OhUhdCMuo8jiSs5oVUfyon-f35gYWWfT/view?usp=sharing
adopted from the CargoFacts 'Widebody Characteristics Graph'

tomcat wrote:
The 773ERSF is more than 30 feet longer than the 77F and it can take the same max payload as the latter...

tomcat wrote:
I would think that for the XF Boeing will select the largest length possible that will still allow the same max payload density as the 772F
Within the constraints of the laws of physics and the laws on economics, do these statements make sense to you or any other intellectually honest data driven poster?


tomcat wrote:
Compared to a converted aircraft, the 777XF will be costly to acquire in any case.
Compared to the A350F the 777XF will be costly to acquire.

tomcat wrote:
What matters for it to be a profitable investment for Boeing is that it will come with a unique selling point that is addressing a market large enough. ...
What is unique about the 777XF?
..existing infrastructure? ..drop tail? ..utility? ..revenue generation/TCO?

Doesn’t seem like FedEx agrees with you on the price front. They recently spoke about the fact that it will cost money to move to the 350F and have that fleet of aircraft, because of retraining. Don’t just say things for the sake of saying them, you have to bring your reasoning and sources to back up your statements.

The XF will be unique as it will be the largest new build freighter available. That’s it’s USP and will probably burn about 35% less fuel than the 747 whilst giving you more volume or at least the same

It would be costlier for FedEx to move onto the A350F vs the 777XF since they already operate 777Fs; however, for an airline operating A350s wanting to open a cargo division, it would be cheaper for them to operate the A350F than the 777XF.
The "real question" would be, for an operator having neither A350s nor 777s or already having both, which platform is cheaper to operate? The A350F or the 777XF?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:51 pm

tomcat wrote:
Then even an A380 P2F program could have a chance .


:scratchchin:

Not a chance. If they ate busy making money hands over fist doing 777 or A330 conversions, they are not going to sink that profit into developing an A380 conversion program just for a few airframe.

bt
 
Opus99
Posts: 2998
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:59 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OhUhdCMuo8jiSs5oVUfyon-f35gYWWfT/view?usp=sharing
adopted from the CargoFacts 'Widebody Characteristics Graph'


Within the constraints of the laws of physics and the laws on economics, do these statements make sense to you or any other intellectually honest data driven poster?


Compared to the A350F the 777XF will be costly to acquire.

What is unique about the 777XF?
..existing infrastructure? ..drop tail? ..utility? ..revenue generation/TCO?

Doesn’t seem like FedEx agrees with you on the price front. They recently spoke about the fact that it will cost money to move to the 350F and have that fleet of aircraft, because of retraining. Don’t just say things for the sake of saying them, you have to bring your reasoning and sources to back up your statements.

The XF will be unique as it will be the largest new build freighter available. That’s it’s USP and will probably burn about 35% less fuel than the 747 whilst giving you more volume or at least the same

It would be costlier for FedEx to move onto the A350F vs the 777XF since they already operate 777Fs; however, for an airline operating A350s wanting to open a cargo division, it would be cheaper for them to operate the A350F than the 777XF.
The "real question" would be, for an operator having neither A350s nor 777s or already having both, which platform is cheaper to operate? The A350F or the 777XF?

True but two questions

If I’m a 747/767 operator like UPS is it still cheaper to remain with the XF? I think it should seeing as you have GE engines too

How many 350 non-cargo operators are going to really come out of this? Not many if any.


I think it’s not only just airbus Boeing. It’s also RR and GE. And it became clear this was going to be a tough game for airbus when Jon Ostrower revealed that cargo carriers asked Airbus to consider GE engines on the 350F which was obviously not going to happen

Now an operator with both. I don’t know. Depends on how much Boeing charges

It’s looking QR being an example is leaning towards the XF. Probably not solely for DOC but with what is going on with airbus as well.

I also believe whoever takes the cake at DAS 2021 will probably be where the follow on orders will fall
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2658
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:20 pm

Opus99 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Doesn’t seem like FedEx agrees with you on the price front. They recently spoke about the fact that it will cost money to move to the 350F and have that fleet of aircraft, because of retraining. Don’t just say things for the sake of saying them, you have to bring your reasoning and sources to back up your statements.

The XF will be unique as it will be the largest new build freighter available. That’s it’s USP and will probably burn about 35% less fuel than the 747 whilst giving you more volume or at least the same

It would be costlier for FedEx to move onto the A350F vs the 777XF since they already operate 777Fs; however, for an airline operating A350s wanting to open a cargo division, it would be cheaper for them to operate the A350F than the 777XF.
The "real question" would be, for an operator having neither A350s nor 777s or already having both, which platform is cheaper to operate? The A350F or the 777XF?

True but two questions

If I’m a 747/767 operator like UPS is it still cheaper to remain with the XF? I think it should seeing as you have GE engines too

How many 350 non-cargo operators are going to really come out of this? Not many if any.


I think it’s not only just airbus Boeing. It’s also RR and GE. And it became clear this was going to be a tough game for airbus when Jon Ostrower revealed that cargo carriers asked Airbus to consider GE engines on the 350F which was obviously not going to happen

Now an operator with both. I don’t know. Depends on how much Boeing charges

It’s looking QR being an example is leaning towards the XF. Probably not solely for DOC but with what is going on with airbus as well.

I also believe whoever takes the cake at DAS 2021 will probably be where the follow on orders will fall

How much commonality between the GE9X (on the 777XF) and the other GE engines on 767s & 747s? I don't think there is that much.
Airframe-wise, there will be a lot of commonality between the freighter and passenger versions of both aircraft, or between the 777F and 777XF; that will play a lot more than the (small if any) commonalities between engines.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
How much commonality between the GE9X (on the 777XF) and the other GE engines on 767s & 747s? I don't think there is that much.
Airframe-wise, there will be a lot of commonality between the freighter and passenger versions of both aircraft, or between the 777F and 777XF; that will play a lot more than the (small if any) commonalities between engines.

I think it's more about business relationships. If you're UP or FX with a large GE fleet, you can use the new business that GE would like to close to help you extract better deals on the old business, get something akin to volume discounts, etc.
 
Opus99
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
How much commonality between the GE9X (on the 777XF) and the other GE engines on 767s & 747s? I don't think there is that much.
Airframe-wise, there will be a lot of commonality between the freighter and passenger versions of both aircraft, or between the 777F and 777XF; that will play a lot more than the (small if any) commonalities between engines.

I think it's more about business relationships. If you're UP or FX with a large GE fleet, you can use the new business that GE would like to close to help you extract better deals on the old business, get something akin to volume discounts, etc.

I think if you’re asking an OEM that has a sole engine supplier if they can consider putting a completely different engine on their air frame. It seems significant
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:00 pm

bikerthai wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Then even an A380 P2F program could have a chance .


:scratchchin:

Not a chance. If they ate busy making money hands over fist doing 777 or A330 conversions, they are not going to sink that profit into developing an A380 conversion program just for a few airframe.

bt

The expense of a low volume program dooms a double decker that needs new ground support equipment.

The A380 lost to the 777-300ER on fuel burn per payload. While the oversized wing should do well in freight, it is a very complex conversion. Anyone looking for more than a 777F with high utilization will look at the 777xF.

The A380 is a very appropriate aircraft for aviation enthusiasts, I could not make a conversion work economically. Not when a horde of 777-300ERSFs will become available, and probably this 777xFs, and the existing fleet of 777Fs and growing fleet of A330P2Fs.

I see a market for 777xFs where fuel burn reduction pays for itself (10+ hour missions).

Lightsaber
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
How much commonality between the GE9X (on the 777XF) and the other GE engines on 767s & 747s? I don't think there is that much.
Airframe-wise, there will be a lot of commonality between the freighter and passenger versions of both aircraft, or between the 777F and 777XF; that will play a lot more than the (small if any) commonalities between engines.

I think it's more about business relationships. If you're UP or FX with a large GE fleet, you can use the new business that GE would like to close to help you extract better deals on the old business, get something akin to volume discounts, etc.


They could even have better deals with some competition between Boeing/GE vs Airbus/RR. But then, if the Airbus/RR offer would only help the existing operators to obtain better deals with Boeing/GE, Airbus might be reluctant to carry on with the A350F. Note that for the foreseeable future, we can anticipate that the Trent-XWB will keep enjoying greater economies of scale than the GE9x (if we consider the number of engines in service and the availability of spare parts). Same is true for the airframes themselves. This can give a competitive edge to Airbus/RR in the short term and make for the absence of- or limited pre-existing business relationship with some key cargo airlines.

On a side note, seeing that the 772F and the 748F have successfully co-existed for about a decade, there might be room for both the A350F and the 777XF if their respective capabilities a sufficiently distinct from each other.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
How much commonality between the GE9X (on the 777XF) and the other GE engines on 767s & 747s? I don't think there is that much.
Airframe-wise, there will be a lot of commonality between the freighter and passenger versions of both aircraft, or between the 777F and 777XF; that will play a lot more than the (small if any) commonalities between engines.

I think it's more about business relationships. If you're UP or FX with a large GE fleet, you can use the new business that GE would like to close to help you extract better deals on the old business, get something akin to volume discounts, etc.

Of course.
But this is not the subject of the original comment, which was FedEx' words about the cost to switching to an A350F fleet.
 
Strato2
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The A380 lost to the 777-300ER on fuel burn per payload.

Lightsaber


Not when comparing apples to apples.

https://leehamnews.com/2018/12/06/is-th ... 777-300er/
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:50 pm

Strato2 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The A380 lost to the 777-300ER on fuel burn per payload.

Lightsaber


Not when comparing apples to apples.

https://leehamnews.com/2018/12/06/is-th ... 777-300er/



Comparing orders to orders, the 77W appears to have done well
 
744SPX
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:52 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The A380 lost to the 777-300ER on fuel burn per payload.

Lightsaber


Not when comparing apples to apples.

https://leehamnews.com/2018/12/06/is-th ... 777-300er/



Comparing orders to orders, the 77W appears to have done well


Doesn't change the fact that the big quad is more efficient than the 77W.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:36 pm

744SPX wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

Not when comparing apples to apples.

https://leehamnews.com/2018/12/06/is-th ... 777-300er/



Comparing orders to orders, the 77W appears to have done well


Doesn't change the fact that the big quad is more efficient than the 77W.


Efficiency alone is not enough... That's why 777's are flying all over the world and the newer A380 is mostly parked around the world.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:25 pm

Interesting statement in Boeing's press release for a new 2x 777F order by Maersk "Star Air".

"The 777 Freighter is Boeing's top-selling freighter of all time. Customers from around the world have ordered more than 300 777 Freighters since the program began in 2005."

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2021-11-02 ... Freighters

The total number of orders we have seen so far is 278 (up to September 2021). So either Boeing booked another 20~22 (or more) 777F orders in October that have not been announced yet or could they already include some 777XF orders that can only be announced after the official launch?

I also wouldn't be surprised that some of the 777F orders that were placed this year also have the option to upgrade to the 777XF if it's launched. It's of course an easy way for Boeing to secure enough orders, they can still deliver them as 777Fs if the launch doesn't happen, but it will also create a strong base of customers for the XF the moment they officially launch the program.
 
Opus99
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:09 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Interesting statement in Boeing's press release for a new 2x 777F order by Maersk "Star Air".

"The 777 Freighter is Boeing's top-selling freighter of all time. Customers from around the world have ordered more than 300 777 Freighters since the program began in 2005."

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2021-11-02 ... Freighters

The total number of orders we have seen so far is 278 (up to September 2021). So either Boeing booked another 20~22 (or more) 777F orders in October that have not been announced yet or could they already include some 777XF orders that can only be announced after the official launch?

I also wouldn't be surprised that some of the 777F orders that were placed this year also have the option to upgrade to the 777XF if it's launched. It's of course an easy way for Boeing to secure enough orders, they can still deliver them as 777Fs if the launch doesn't happen, but it will also create a strong base of customers for the XF the moment they officially launch the program.

That’s a good catch. Hmm let’s see what happens
There are many ways boeing can make the XF work for them, they have business, they have the relationships and they have the eco system
Last edited by Opus99 on Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1213
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:10 pm

bikerthai wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Change the -8 fuselage to whatever the F needs . .


They do not have to do that as the two needs different body sections anyway.

The only reason why would they do that would be making the -8 more attractive for F conversion, which is really too far down the road a concern for the additional engineering effort.

bt


In addition to the conversion item (most advantageous for 747), it would allow for one certification effort.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:00 pm

It could be that Boeing in close consultation with key customers decides not to fly in a 777-9 at this time to not delay the ongoing rugged test and certification process to be completed before first hand over to Lufthansa , Emirates and other leading airlines all over the globe.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:04 pm

tomcat wrote:
They could even have better deals with some competition between Boeing/GE vs Airbus/RR. But then, if the Airbus/RR offer would only help the existing operators to obtain better deals with Boeing/GE, Airbus might be reluctant to carry on with the A350F. Note that for the foreseeable future, we can anticipate that the Trent-XWB will keep enjoying greater economies of scale than the GE9x (if we consider the number of engines in service and the availability of spare parts). Same is true for the airframes themselves. This can give a competitive edge to Airbus/RR in the short term and make for the absence of- or limited pre-existing business relationship with some key cargo airlines.

On a side note, seeing that the 772F and the 748F have successfully co-existed for about a decade, there might be room for both the A350F and the 777XF if their respective capabilities a sufficiently distinct from each other.

If prospective customers are looking for a complete turnkey deal, historically, non-intensive operators have had more options and flexibility from RR compared to GE, including switching and costs to switch plans. But not enough to overcome some trade impediments?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:52 pm

https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... hedule.pdf

Schedule for Dubai airshow is out.

Boeing has a commercial derivatives update press conference on the 777X/737 MAX on Monday 15th Nov. Between 1:00 to 1:45

Could that be a launch press conference?
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:11 pm

The empty weight of the 777-F is 318K and the 777-300ER is 370K. So what is the maximum landing weight for both? I don't see how the -300ERCF comes close to making up 52Klb of extra airframe weight. One would think the 777-F or 777-200LRCF would have a 25Klb to 30Klb payload advantage over the -300ERCF at minimum.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 531
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:23 pm

[code][/code]
DenverTed wrote:
The empty weight of the 777-F is 318K and the 777-300ER is 370K. So what is the maximum landing weight for both? I don't see how the -300ERCF comes close to making up 52Klb of extra airframe weight. One would think the 777-F or 777-200LRCF would have a 25Klb to 30Klb payload advantage over the -300ERCF at minimum.

I assume you are referring to Klbs because the OEW of the 77W is 168kg and 144kg for the 77F. 777-300ERSF has an OEW of 152kg from what I've seen.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:41 am

JohanTally wrote:
[code][/code]
DenverTed wrote:
The empty weight of the 777-F is 318K and the 777-300ER is 370K. So what is the maximum landing weight for both? I don't see how the -300ERCF comes close to making up 52Klb of extra airframe weight. One would think the 777-F or 777-200LRCF would have a 25Klb to 30Klb payload advantage over the -300ERCF at minimum.

I assume you are referring to Klbs because the OEW of the 77W is 168kg and 144kg for the 77F. 777-300ERSF has an OEW of 152kg from what I've seen.

So when Boeing built a dedicated 777-F, they saved 1t off the LR from 145t to 144t, but the ERSF shaved 16t off? Why wouldn't the F be 16t lighter than the LR? Something seems off in these comparisons. Did the OEW of the 300ER include the seats, lavs, and galleys, but the OEW of the 200LR did not?
What would the OEW of a 200LRCF be? 12t or 14t less taking it down to 130t? I assume that 16t reduction on the -300ERSF is something more than just plugging windows.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 531
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:42 am

DenverTed wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
[code][/code]
DenverTed wrote:
The empty weight of the 777-F is 318K and the 777-300ER is 370K. So what is the maximum landing weight for both? I don't see how the -300ERCF comes close to making up 52Klb of extra airframe weight. One would think the 777-F or 777-200LRCF would have a 25Klb to 30Klb payload advantage over the -300ERCF at minimum.

I assume you are referring to Klbs because the OEW of the 77W is 168kg and 144kg for the 77F. 777-300ERSF has an OEW of 152kg from what I've seen.

So when Boeing built a dedicated 777-F, they saved 1t off the LR from 145t to 144t, but the ERSF shaved 16t off? Why wouldn't the F be 16t lighter than the LR? Something seems off in these comparisons. Did the OEW of the 300ER include the seats, lavs, and galleys, but the OEW of the 200LR did not?
What would the OEW of a 200LRCF be? 12t or 14t less taking it down to 130t? I assume that 16t reduction on the -300ERSF is something more than just plugging windows.

The OEW on the 77W does include the interior which adds considerable weight versus just the cargo hardware.
 
744SPX
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:24 am

DenverTed wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
[code][/code]
DenverTed wrote:
The empty weight of the 777-F is 318K and the 777-300ER is 370K. So what is the maximum landing weight for both? I don't see how the -300ERCF comes close to making up 52Klb of extra airframe weight. One would think the 777-F or 777-200LRCF would have a 25Klb to 30Klb payload advantage over the -300ERCF at minimum.

I assume you are referring to Klbs because the OEW of the 77W is 168kg and 144kg for the 77F. 777-300ERSF has an OEW of 152kg from what I've seen.

So when Boeing built a dedicated 777-F, they saved 1t off the LR from 145t to 144t, but the ERSF shaved 16t off? Why wouldn't the F be 16t lighter than the LR? Something seems off in these comparisons. Did the OEW of the 300ER include the seats, lavs, and galleys, but the OEW of the 200LR did not?
What would the OEW of a 200LRCF be? 12t or 14t less taking it down to 130t? I assume that 16t reduction on the -300ERSF is something more than just plugging windows.


Absolutely agree. Something smells rotten here, and its IAI's figures for the 300ERSF.
 
amdiesen
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:30 am

tomcat wrote:
amdiesen wrote:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OhUhdCMuo8jiSs5oVUfyon-f35gYWWfT/view?usp=sharing
adopted from the CargoFacts 'Widebody Characteristics Graph'

tomcat wrote:
I would think that for the XF Boeing will select the largest length possible that will still allow the same max payload density as the 772F

Within the constraints of the laws of physics and the laws on economics, do these statements make sense to you or any other intellectually honest data driven poster?


Yep, they do. It's rather the graph that doesn't make sense to me, in particular the stated max payload of the 772F. I'm not aware of that 110t max payload for the 772F. By the way, you felt the need to correct the graph for the A350F so what makes you think that the graph is correct for any other aircraft included on it?

...It could be a higher max payload than any aircraft currently or soon to be on the market, combined with a high density capability and or a greater payload/range proposal. Otherwise why would Boeing build it? Just for the fuel saving over the 773ERSF?


Your statement that the length of the XF should be selected based on ~same payload density as the 772F is lucid and the updated graph ~agrees that the 778F length meets that criteria.
Additionally the A350F was addressed to more accurately reflect freighter expectations.
A nod to Cargofacts would be that the graph was crafted to meet specific objectives, which differ in precision, at a time in history where less data was available on the XF and A350F. However, their a359f point is instructive in that a p2f would be expected to be placed at a slight discount, sometime in the early 2030s.

It can be argued, and is my opinion, that the ERSF and the A350F have an economic justification for each program's investment, considering the caveat that the a350 program benefits will offset typical payback period expectations. It is the multi-factor headwinds facing the XF that are misunderstood at a time when Boeing's financial health is precarious and their product line-up is 'disheveled' at best. Keesje's 'pip the GE90' on the 772F into compliance scenario has credibility as a punting strategy.

FedEx's comments on the A350F merit attention. FedEx consciously allowed themselves to be captured by Boeing & GE, deriving uncommon/unique benefits from the relationship. The costs would include unwinding these uncommon/unique benefits. Prudence would argue an ERSF leasing path as there does not seem to be a material cost in their deferring the higher risk XF choice.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:08 pm

There's a clear undertone in this interview. Tim Clark wants Boeing to get their act together so there won't be any more MAX situations.

ps. With Emirates commitment to the 777-300ERSF they won't be the most likely candidate as a launch customer for the 777XF out of the ME3, especially since they are now also receiving brand new 777Fs. That's why they have not popped in any of the articles about the 777XF launch, other then being potential customer since they have the 777X on order and also have a large freighter fleet.

The 777F has a large solid customer base, it's the most popular large freighter ever. Boeing is likely to find enough customers in the group of current 777F operators to make a launch possible.

Obviously other potential customers will also have a very critical look at the issues with the certification of the 777-9. But they will also be rational and see that if the 777F is launched with lets say a 2025 EIS the certification process should not be an issue anymore (If Boeing indeed get their act together).
 
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Pythagoras
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:48 pm

tomcat wrote:
I have been wondering for a while whether the folding wingtip system was actually still needed now that the A380 has pushed many airports to accept Code F aircraft (in limited numbers at a time). Especially now that the number of active A380 is dwindling, the available space and time slots for new code F aircraft is increasing at those airports. Granted, making the 777X a code E aircraft will make its operation more flexible but at the same time, it's not planned to operate in greater numbers than the A380 at its peak for at least the next 10 years. This being said, I take notice that Clark already expects the Code F infrastructures to be converted back to Code E. All the real estate heritage of the A380 existence might thus disappear really fast.


There are airports where the proximity of the taxiway and runways make it not possible for two 777X airplanes to safely operate simultaneously without an escort vehicle. It is not an issue exclusively about gate availability. Some dedicated A-netter can probably look over Emirates' route structure and find which airports this applies to.
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:06 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
tomcat wrote:
I have been wondering for a while whether the folding wingtip system was actually still needed now that the A380 has pushed many airports to accept Code F aircraft (in limited numbers at a time). Especially now that the number of active A380 is dwindling, the available space and time slots for new code F aircraft is increasing at those airports. Granted, making the 777X a code E aircraft will make its operation more flexible but at the same time, it's not planned to operate in greater numbers than the A380 at its peak for at least the next 10 years. This being said, I take notice that Clark already expects the Code F infrastructures to be converted back to Code E. All the real estate heritage of the A380 existence might thus disappear really fast.


There are airports where the proximity of the taxiway and runways make it not possible for two 777X airplanes to safely operate simultaneously without an escort vehicle. It is not an issue exclusively about gate availability. Some dedicated A-netter can probably look over Emirates' route structure and find which airports this applies to.


Sure, but does this mean there is no life possible for a 777X without folding mechanism which by the way, would be slightly cheaper to manufacture and would be slightly lighter than with this mechanism? We are talking about the cost of an escort car required for a few minutes at some airports vs the cost and permanent weight penalty of the folding mechanism (I can conceive that such a mechanism would be pretty much maintenance free if designed properly).
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:55 pm

tomcat wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:
tomcat wrote:
I have been wondering for a while whether the folding wingtip system was actually still needed now that the A380 has pushed many airports to accept Code F aircraft (in limited numbers at a time). Especially now that the number of active A380 is dwindling, the available space and time slots for new code F aircraft is increasing at those airports. Granted, making the 777X a code E aircraft will make its operation more flexible but at the same time, it's not planned to operate in greater numbers than the A380 at its peak for at least the next 10 years. This being said, I take notice that Clark already expects the Code F infrastructures to be converted back to Code E. All the real estate heritage of the A380 existence might thus disappear really fast.


There are airports where the proximity of the taxiway and runways make it not possible for two 777X airplanes to safely operate simultaneously without an escort vehicle. It is not an issue exclusively about gate availability. Some dedicated A-netter can probably look over Emirates' route structure and find which airports this applies to.


Sure, but does this mean there is no life possible for a 777X without folding mechanism which by the way, would be slightly cheaper to manufacture and would be slightly lighter than with this mechanism? We are talking about the cost of an escort car required for a few minutes at some airports vs the cost and permanent weight penalty of the folding mechanism (I can conceive that such a mechanism would be pretty much maintenance free if designed properly).

The vast majority of 77W operators are going to plug and play the 779 in it's place which means utilizing the same Code E gates. It adds complexity to the aircraft but that outweighs the infrastructure required for handling Code F aircraft.
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:33 pm

Pythagoras wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Pythagoras wrote:

There are airports where the proximity of the taxiway and runways make it not possible for two 777X airplanes to safely operate simultaneously without an escort vehicle. It is not an issue exclusively about gate availability. Some dedicated A-netter can probably look over Emirates' route structure and find which airports this applies to.


Sure, but does this mean there is no life possible for a 777X without folding mechanism which by the way, would be slightly cheaper to manufacture and would be slightly lighter than with this mechanism? We are talking about the cost of an escort car required for a few minutes at some airports vs the cost and permanent weight penalty of the folding mechanism (I can conceive that such a mechanism would be pretty much maintenance free if designed properly).


Feel free to speculate.

Several thoughts come to mind as to why Boeing would not go that route:
1) It is very expensive for Boeing to design and build distinct configurations, especially on an airplane that is being built at a low production rate.
2) Airlines do not want to rely upon airline operations, which they have no control over, for their ability to dispatch. Airport operators don't want to have to staff for escort vehicles, especially at night when a freighter might be landing.
3) Aircraft lease holders would prefer an airplane that can easily be placed at another carrier when it comes off of lease. An airplane that is unique and limited in capability will have a lower residual value.
4) From a pure safety perspective, one would be introducing a failure mode that is subject to the foibles of human nature.


I'm not willing to speculate. I'm rather trying to get a better understanding of the balance of the pro's and con's of the folding wingtip (vs a unique configuration without folding wingtip) in a world where the A380 has been in service for more than 10 years. These questions crossed my mind some time ago when it was argued that the 777XF would be much heavier than the 777F. I thought that replacing the folding wingtip by a fixed one was an easy weight saving opportunity.

Thank you for the points you made.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:30 pm

If we are talking the freighter version then there are no A380 size gates on freight ramps as there is no A380 freighter.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:14 pm

StTim wrote:
If we are talking the freighter version then there are no A380 size gates on freight ramps as there is no A380 freighter.


And as someone has state a few pages back, even for freighters, ramp space is a premium.

bt
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:47 pm

Please keep to the topic that being about a potential freighter version of the 777X being launched at Dubai Air Show, if you wish to discuss the passenger version and what particular airlines are saying regarding the passenger version that is a side discussion and belongs in a separate topic
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:16 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/airshows/dubai/Boeing_Daily_Schedule.pdf

Schedule for Dubai airshow is out.

Boeing has a commercial derivatives update press conference on the 777X/737 MAX on Monday 15th Nov. Between 1:00 to 1:45

Could that be a launch press conference?


Probably not big announcements . https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/ ... 1.83423369

But it's great the 777-9 will be there for everybody to see.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:43 am

“In Dubai, Airbus SE will be chasing customers for a cargo version of its A350 widebody passenger plane. Boeing Co. is also preparing to unveil the initial deal for an all-cargo version of its 777X widebody. But the announcement could come outside of the airshow if an expected launch customer, Qatar Airways“

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aft-bubble

The article points out the troubles of launching a new freighter in the market of conversions. Loads of supply. But also with aircrafts coming back into service will there be demand for new freighters when these aircraft come into service. My take is irregardless both manufacturers should have products in offer.

A350F is 109 tonnes more payload than 777F but maybe less than XF which Reuters reported is going as high 117 tonnes which js about 7 tonnes shy of a 747F

The wording suggests that a 777XF deals have closed and it’s a matter of where and when. Qatar airways is clearly the launch customer.

Airbus is still looking to close deals this airshow. They’re vying for the same customers FedEx, DHL and the likes
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:49 am

They would launch with at least two customers wouldn't they? So who is No. 2?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:14 am

Noshow wrote:
They would launch with at least two customers wouldn't they? So who is No. 2?

My bet is FedEx
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:50 am

Would LH Cargo be close to order as well? Would they have the funding or would they get XF-slots from the big LH passenger 777X order?
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:38 am

Noshow wrote:
Would LH Cargo be close to order as well? Would they have the funding or would they get XF-slots from the big LH passenger 777X order?


It would be a good strategy for LH to convert all the X to XF. In the long run LH can overcome slot restrictions at FRA by shifting traffic to other hubs (MUC/ZRH/etc.) This is a good option for passenger travel but for the freight operations it is important for LH to have as much payload as possible to avoid upgauging by frequency.

This helps to de-risk the business and streamline the operations around 787 and 350s while keeping the separate pilot pool at LH Cargo. In theory OS could then get more 787s while more 350s go to LX. Replacing the 777s at Swiss and using the relatively new ones as cargo conversions would also simplify all WB cockpits in the group while LH cargo would have a super efficient and modern fleet based on the 777.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:47 am

Interesting concept to convert the entire order. But LH will need to keep something big to follow their 747-400 and A380 fleets and their high seat count.
Since the opening of Landebahn Nordwest Frankfurt has no more practical slot issues or relevant restrictions aside from operating hours and night curfew.
Swiss seems to make use of their 777's belly cargo capacity quite well. I don't see them converting them to freighters as so many cheap 777-300ER are on the market.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:03 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Would LH Cargo be close to order as well? Would they have the funding or would they get XF-slots from the big LH passenger 777X order?


It would be a good strategy for LH to convert all the X to XF. In the long run LH can overcome slot restrictions at FRA by shifting traffic to other hubs (MUC/ZRH/etc.) This is a good option for passenger travel but for the freight operations it is important for LH to have as much payload as possible to avoid upgauging by frequency.

This helps to de-risk the business and streamline the operations around 787 and 350s while keeping the separate pilot pool at LH Cargo. In theory OS could then get more 787s while more 350s go to LX. Replacing the 777s at Swiss and using the relatively new ones as cargo conversions would also simplify all WB cockpits in the group while LH cargo would have a super efficient and modern fleet based on the 777.

That makes tremendous sense I think. But don’t you think 20 freighters is a lot?
 
tomcat
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:10 pm

Opus99 wrote:
“In Dubai, Airbus SE will be chasing customers for a cargo version of its A350 widebody passenger plane. Boeing Co. is also preparing to unveil the initial deal for an all-cargo version of its 777X widebody. But the announcement could come outside of the airshow if an expected launch customer, Qatar Airways“

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aft-bubble

A350F is 109 tonnes


Are these metric tonnes or short tons? In the latter case, it would translate into 99 metric tonnes, which actually seems more realistic if we consider the figures which circulated previously ("more than 90 metric tonnes")

The quote from Bloomberg is the following:
Those briefed on the jet describe a formidable market entrant with a 109-ton payload and the range to cruise the Pacific Ocean.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:10 pm

Opus99 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Would LH Cargo be close to order as well? Would they have the funding or would they get XF-slots from the big LH passenger 777X order?


It would be a good strategy for LH to convert all the X to XF. In the long run LH can overcome slot restrictions at FRA by shifting traffic to other hubs (MUC/ZRH/etc.) This is a good option for passenger travel but for the freight operations it is important for LH to have as much payload as possible to avoid upgauging by frequency.

This helps to de-risk the business and streamline the operations around 787 and 350s while keeping the separate pilot pool at LH Cargo. In theory OS could then get more 787s while more 350s go to LX. Replacing the 777s at Swiss and using the relatively new ones as cargo conversions would also simplify all WB cockpits in the group while LH cargo would have a super efficient and modern fleet based on the 777.

That makes tremendous sense I think. But don’t you think 20 freighters is a lot?


They have 10 777F at the moment, taking 2-3 every year from 2023 onwards would see them having 35 in around 2035. Combine this with the lower belly cargo potential of the 787/350s compared to the 747s is only a moderate growth.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:35 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

It would be a good strategy for LH to convert all the X to XF. In the long run LH can overcome slot restrictions at FRA by shifting traffic to other hubs (MUC/ZRH/etc.) This is a good option for passenger travel but for the freight operations it is important for LH to have as much payload as possible to avoid upgauging by frequency.

This helps to de-risk the business and streamline the operations around 787 and 350s while keeping the separate pilot pool at LH Cargo. In theory OS could then get more 787s while more 350s go to LX. Replacing the 777s at Swiss and using the relatively new ones as cargo conversions would also simplify all WB cockpits in the group while LH cargo would have a super efficient and modern fleet based on the 777.

That makes tremendous sense I think. But don’t you think 20 freighters is a lot?


They have 10 777F at the moment, taking 2-3 every year from 2023 onwards would see them having 35 in around 2035. Combine this with the lower belly cargo potential of the 787/350s compared to the 747s is only a moderate growth.

Yeah that makes sense now actually
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:04 pm

tomcat wrote:
Are these metric tonnes or short tons? In the latter case, it would translate into 99 metric tonnes, which actually seems more realistic if we consider the figures which circulated previously ("more than 90 metric tonnes")


Being Bloomberg, I presume they are using Imperial so that would be 109 short tons or 99 metric (99,000kg).
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing tipped to launch 777X freighter at Dubai Air Show

Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:29 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

It would be a good strategy for LH to convert all the X to XF. In the long run LH can overcome slot restrictions at FRA by shifting traffic to other hubs (MUC/ZRH/etc.) This is a good option for passenger travel but for the freight operations it is important for LH to have as much payload as possible to avoid upgauging by frequency.

This helps to de-risk the business and streamline the operations around 787 and 350s while keeping the separate pilot pool at LH Cargo. In theory OS could then get more 787s while more 350s go to LX. Replacing the 777s at Swiss and using the relatively new ones as cargo conversions would also simplify all WB cockpits in the group while LH cargo would have a super efficient and modern fleet based on the 777.

That makes tremendous sense I think. But don’t you think 20 freighters is a lot?


They have 10 777F at the moment, taking 2-3 every year from 2023 onwards would see them having 35 in around 2035. Combine this with the lower belly cargo potential of the 787/350s compared to the 747s is only a moderate growth.

Most 787/A350s have similar or more belly cargo potential compared to the 744. Newer widebodies, with their smaller wings and (usually) only two MLG are far better optimized for belly cargo than the 747.
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