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FlyingViking
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Southwest operational issues 10/2021

Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:36 pm

I hear rumors of cancelations due to JAX Center shutdown. Any word as to why? And the impact on airlines?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday?

Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:42 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
I hear rumors of cancelations due to JAX Center shutdown. Any word as to why? And the impact on airlines?

My understanding is that ZJX did not go ATC-0. They were having staffing issues, and at one point, ZDC was shut off for all traffic southbound into ZJX. Weather was also a complicating factor. It seems like most of the issues occurred in the morning and mid afternoon, but weather was an issue all day.
 
FlyingElvii
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Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:39 am

Two different acquaintances contacted me this evening for advise on how to get out of Florida. After the second I started doing some checking.
It seems Southwest has canceled 806 flights today, looks like mostly Florida and Southeast flights, other airlines affected as well.
https://flightaware.com/live/cancelled/

Multiple Twitter posts talking about a Walkout/sickout at Jacksonville Center over the vaccine mandate?
https://twitter.com/LelandVittert/statu ... 8966643713

Could Southwest be facing a sickout today as well?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:47 am

It looks to be a mix of FAA mandated weather and a walkout (this article doesn't specify).

https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/rea ... anded/amp/

A walkout during high workload would have the greatest impact. I cannot say for certain, at this point.

Lightsaber
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:59 am

lightsaber wrote:
It looks to be a mix of FAA mandated weather and a walkout (this article doesn't specify).

https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/rea ... anded/amp/

A walkout during high workload would have the greatest impact. I cannot say for certain, at this point.

Lightsaber

Southwest seems to be a sickout. I am hearing that Jax ATC is “severely understaffed” due to a Large number of “ Recent Retirements”.
 
ty97
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:30 am

Whatever the issue is, it's hitting WN specifically. 24% canceled, 34% delayed Saturday for WN.

AA/DL/UA (mainline) at 2% or less cancellation per flightaware. The regionals that supports them are the same (2% or less) except Air Wisconsin and GoJet at 7% cancellations each.

I'm not an ATC expert, but IME as a passenger ATC delays at a regional center don't tend to impact only one airline, especially so dramatically.

As to what's happened, I wouldn't know. But ATC doesn't doesn't right to me.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:44 am

Hearing speculation it’s a handful of WN pilots who called out this weekend to “protest” mandatory COVID vaccines that are now required for all WN employees.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:09 am

If sick leave numbers spiked then SW leadership needs to be at the court on Monday with an injunction against the pilot group. When this costs the pilots money via an assessment they may feel better quickly.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:55 am

mcdu wrote:
If sick leave numbers spiked then SW leadership needs to be at the court on Monday with an injunction against the pilot group. When this costs the pilots money via an assessment they may feel better quickly.

Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."
 
jmc1975
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:11 am

You are now free to move about the country.
 
Ufsatp
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:38 am

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/loca ... VVBZA34YI/


“A representative for the Federal Aviation Administration told Action News Jax, “Due to a combination of severe weather, active military training in the airspace, and unexpected limited staff at the Jacksonville facility that handles high-altitude, en route traffic, the FAA took steps to safely manage air traffic the evening of Oct. 8. Normal operations returned at approximately 10 p.m.”
 
SteelChair
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:10 am

The federal government of the United States was unable to provide air traffic services. Let that sink in.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:54 am

SteelChair wrote:
The federal government of the United States was unable to provide air traffic services. Let that sink in.


Not sure how the type of organization is relevant - you either have the staff to do things in a given location, or you don't.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:11 pm

Everything people are hearing about a "walkout" at ZJX or whatever is nothing more than rumors and simply not true. On Friday ZJX experienced a very difficult day due to many factors, some of which were mentioned above. Staffing has been low around the country, some facilities worse than others. There was significant weather that moved from northern central FL to the east shutting off east coast routes. A major military exercise was also occurring and during this event ZJX gives away nearly half of its airspace significantly increasing complexity. ZJX often gets backlash from the command center on route structure and ground delay programs, so the facility was forced to take whatever measures they could on their own to manage the issue and even then some of the sectors west of the weather were heavily overloaded with no relieving controllers. People don't typically think of Jacksonville Center when it comes to busy facilities, but it is without a doubt one of the most constrained facilities due to geography and military airspace, it works more volume than most level 12 facilities, and deals with the most significant weather.
Hope this helps clear things up..
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:14 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Everything people are hearing about a "walkout" at ZJX or whatever is nothing more than rumors and simply not true. On Friday ZJX experienced a very difficult day due to many factors, some of which were mentioned above. Staffing has been low around the country, some facilities worse than others. There was significant weather that moved from northern central FL to the east shutting off east coast routes. A major military exercise was also occurring and during this event ZJX gives away nearly half of its airspace significantly increasing complexity. ZJX often gets backlash from the command center on route structure and ground delay programs, so the facility was forced to take whatever measures they could on their own to manage the issue and even then some of the sectors west of the weather were heavily overloaded with no relieving controllers. People don't typically think of Jacksonville Center when it comes to busy facilities, but it is without a doubt one of the most constrained facilities due to geography and military airspace, it works more volume than most level 12 facilities, and deals with the most significant weather.
Hope this helps clear things up..


Excellent info, thanks for the update.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:29 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Everything people are hearing about a "walkout" at ZJX or whatever is nothing more than rumors and simply not true. On Friday ZJX experienced a very difficult day due to many factors, some of which were mentioned above. Staffing has been low around the country, some facilities worse than others. There was significant weather that moved from northern central FL to the east shutting off east coast routes. A major military exercise was also occurring and during this event ZJX gives away nearly half of its airspace significantly increasing complexity. ZJX often gets backlash from the command center on route structure and ground delay programs, so the facility was forced to take whatever measures they could on their own to manage the issue and even then some of the sectors west of the weather were heavily overloaded with no relieving controllers. People don't typically think of Jacksonville Center when it comes to busy facilities, but it is without a doubt one of the most constrained facilities due to geography and military airspace, it works more volume than most level 12 facilities, and deals with the most significant weather.
Hope this helps clear things up..

To add to this, I remember the only routing into south Florida airports for a while was overwater over the AR's. This constraint, coupled with busy Columbus holiday traffic from the northeast put a burden on ZDC. Flights out of the northeast to the southeast that were normally thru ZDC were getting long reroutes via ZOB and other centers.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:42 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Everything people are hearing about a "walkout" at ZJX or whatever is nothing more than rumors and simply not true. On Friday ZJX experienced a very difficult day due to many factors, some of which were mentioned above. Staffing has been low around the country, some facilities worse than others. There was significant weather that moved from northern central FL to the east shutting off east coast routes. A major military exercise was also occurring and during this event ZJX gives away nearly half of its airspace significantly increasing complexity. ZJX often gets backlash from the command center on route structure and ground delay programs, so the facility was forced to take whatever measures they could on their own to manage the issue and even then some of the sectors west of the weather were heavily overloaded with no relieving controllers. People don't typically think of Jacksonville Center when it comes to busy facilities, but it is without a doubt one of the most constrained facilities due to geography and military airspace, it works more volume than most level 12 facilities, and deals with the most significant weather.
Hope this helps clear things up..


This really doesn't clear things up at all. "ZJX often gets backlash from the command center," sounds like "We're gonna show them this time, we'll just shut down."

The bottom line is that ZJX was unable to provide service. When was the last time this happened? There have been ATC Zero events associated with Covid, but for an entire center to just shut down because they couldn't manage the situation, isn't that pretty much unheard of?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:57 pm

SteelChair wrote:
This really doesn't clear things up at all. "ZJX often gets backlash from the command center," sounds like "We're gonna show them this time, we'll just shut down."

The bottom line is that ZJX was unable to provide service. When was the last time this happened? There have been ATC Zero events associated with Covid, but for an entire center to just shut down because they couldn't manage the situation, isn't that pretty much unheard of?

It actually clears things up quite well. ZJX is the red-headed stepchild of the east coast, and as much as I love giving them a hard time, they do deal with some significant challenges when it comes to weather and traffic flows. ZJX was not "unable to provide service", they were providing service to their abilities given the weather, airspace, and staffing constraints. You can't conjure up more controllers on short notice, you can't find more airspace without weather in it, and you can't invent new routes that work with traffic flows. ZJX did not go ATC-0, so it's a moot point. Even then, ATC-0 events happen somewhat more frequently than you think due to various reasons. ZDC had an ATC-0 event four years ago due to fumes from guys working on the roof.

I realize that you don't think government employees can adequately perform this job, but I would highly suggest you educate yourself further on the matter prior to being so critical. I would invite you to schedule a tour at your nearest ARTCC.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:01 pm

SteelChair wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
Everything people are hearing about a "walkout" at ZJX or whatever is nothing more than rumors and simply not true. On Friday ZJX experienced a very difficult day due to many factors, some of which were mentioned above. Staffing has been low around the country, some facilities worse than others. There was significant weather that moved from northern central FL to the east shutting off east coast routes. A major military exercise was also occurring and during this event ZJX gives away nearly half of its airspace significantly increasing complexity. ZJX often gets backlash from the command center on route structure and ground delay programs, so the facility was forced to take whatever measures they could on their own to manage the issue and even then some of the sectors west of the weather were heavily overloaded with no relieving controllers. People don't typically think of Jacksonville Center when it comes to busy facilities, but it is without a doubt one of the most constrained facilities due to geography and military airspace, it works more volume than most level 12 facilities, and deals with the most significant weather.
Hope this helps clear things up..


This really doesn't clear things up at all. "ZJX often gets backlash from the command center," sounds like "We're gonna show them this time, we'll just shut down."

The bottom line is that ZJX was unable to provide service. When was the last time this happened? There have been ATC Zero events associated with Covid, but for an entire center to just shut down because they couldn't manage the situation, isn't that pretty much unheard of?

Where are you seeing that ZJX ever went ATC zero? Looking back through Friday's advisories I see several ZJX groundstops for flights into south Florida airports and in particular MCO but never an ATC zero event.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:04 pm

SteelChair wrote:
This really doesn't clear things up at all. "ZJX often gets backlash from the command center," sounds like "We're gonna show them this time, we'll just shut down."

The bottom line is that ZJX was unable to provide service. When was the last time this happened? There have been ATC Zero events associated with Covid, but for an entire center to just shut down because they couldn't manage the situation, isn't that pretty much unheard of?


With all do respect, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Whatever you heard on social media, whatever you heard on the news isn’t true. ZJX did not shut down, infact it continued to handle insane amounts of traffic all funneling through literally two sectors with controllers sitting on position for 3+ hours with no assistance. When safety is compromised you do whatever means necessary, and if that means stopping departures and putting other facilities in temporary holds that’s what you do. This had nothing to do with “showing command center”, it all had to do with managing this facility and keeping it as safe as possible in a very difficult situation. Everyone their worked their ass off.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:14 pm

trnswrld wrote:
Everything people are hearing about a "walkout" at ZJX or whatever is nothing more than rumors and simply not true. On Friday ZJX experienced a very difficult day due to many factors, some of which were mentioned above. Staffing has been low around the country, some facilities worse than others. There was significant weather that moved from northern central FL to the east shutting off east coast routes. A major military exercise was also occurring and during this event ZJX gives away nearly half of its airspace significantly increasing complexity. ZJX often gets backlash from the command center on route structure and ground delay programs, so the facility was forced to take whatever measures they could on their own to manage the issue and even then some of the sectors west of the weather were heavily overloaded with no relieving controllers. People don't typically think of Jacksonville Center when it comes to busy facilities, but it is without a doubt one of the most constrained facilities due to geography and military airspace, it works more volume than most level 12 facilities, and deals with the most significant weather.
Hope this helps clear things up..

Thank you, that makes the ATC situation clearer.
But it doesn’t give an answer as to why Southwest canceled 800+ flights yesterday.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:28 pm

 
N312RC
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:36 pm

Someone feel free to correct me but WN is experiencing something similar to what DL had gone through a couple years ago - thunderstorms causing operational delays and diversions so severe that crew scheduling is underwater with a zillion broken rotations that need to be fixed. It takes a while to get out of position/timed out crew issues resolved and you only have so many reserves to work with while you do that.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:17 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:

So the question is, is this a cascade from yesterday or something else?

Serious question, has Southwest recalled all of the voluntary leave program? I heard of a recall in April (on duty in June), but I have no idea if that was all of them:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/s ... l-picks-up

Disruptions can cause a cascade of issues, e.g., the Spirit operational challenge thread was a sign of how not to resolve issues:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1463355

When looking at the statistics, Southwest indeed had an operational meltdown:
Cancelled flights yesterday: 2396
Delayed flights (in addition to cancelled): 9,463
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... NewsSearch

It continues today (Sunday):

Southwest Airlines canceled more than 1,000 flights, 27% of its schedule, on Sunday as disruptions that the airline blamed on air traffic control issues and bad weather affected the travel plans of thousands of customers.
...

The disparity between Southwest's operation and other airlines fueled speculation on social media that employees were calling out sick.

The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, Southwest pilots' labor union said that "we can say with confidence that our Pilots are not participating in any official or unofficial job actions."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... NewsSearch

If you read more into it, it sounds like pilots were being worked near fatigue limits and yesterday's disruption just pushed a lot into mandatory rest (I might be reading too much between the lines, that is my opinion).

A lean organization is great for costs, bad for IROPS. Considering everyone has pretty much forgotten about Spirit, this too shall pass.

Lightsaber
 
SteelChair
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:36 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This really doesn't clear things up at all. "ZJX often gets backlash from the command center," sounds like "We're gonna show them this time, we'll just shut down."

The bottom line is that ZJX was unable to provide service. When was the last time this happened? There have been ATC Zero events associated with Covid, but for an entire center to just shut down because they couldn't manage the situation, isn't that pretty much unheard of?

It actually clears things up quite well. ZJX is the red-headed stepchild of the east coast, and as much as I love giving them a hard time, they do deal with some significant challenges when it comes to weather and traffic flows. ZJX was not "unable to provide service", they were providing service to their abilities given the weather, airspace, and staffing constraints. You can't conjure up more controllers on short notice, you can't find more airspace without weather in it, and you can't invent new routes that work with traffic flows. ZJX did not go ATC-0, so it's a moot point. Even then, ATC-0 events happen somewhat more frequently than you think due to various reasons. ZDC had an ATC-0 event four years ago due to fumes from guys working on the roof.

I realize that you don't think government employees can adequately perform this job, but I would highly suggest you educate yourself further on the matter prior to being so critical. I would invite you to schedule a tour at your nearest ARTCC.


I don't blame the employees necessarily but the 1950s system and the horrible government management. Government is supposed to be a referee not an operator. Mho

Regarding your somewhat condescending remark to visit an ARTCC, I have been in the business many years. Been dealing with the FAA and have been in some of their facilities. Long history, for example: The imposition of ATC preferred routes implemented during the PATCO strike that were never removed, and are now SOP. Perhaps you remember all that or perhaps it was before your time? Then, the imposition of equipment requirements for RVSM and RNP, which were supposed to make the airplanes fly so precisely that the routes could be built closer both laterally and vertically, and therefore reduce enroute constraints. Not only never happened, but now we have FEA/FCA/AFP. We went backwards....delays grow worse all the time. Various annual FAA reports detail the seemingly continual increase in ATC delays.....pre Covid. I remember hearing Southwest on the call say one time, "you know our airplanes can get wet, right?" The most recent FAA ATC Controller workforce plan details that traffic peaked 20 years ago (page 8).

Safety....the usual fallback position. As if ATC is the only component of safety. I guess when we had fewer crashes and more traffic in the past, we were unsafe. No one at ATC waving the safety flag ever bothers to mention the design, manufacture, certification, operation, and maintenance of the aircraft. Guess they didn't talk about that at Oklahoma City.
 
ryan78
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:38 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
I hear rumors of cancelations due to JAX Center shutdown. Any word as to why? And the impact on airlines?


I know an Air Canada A330 from YYZ-FLL diverted into ATL because of this, circled twice just south of Charlotte then continued South before turning back North towards ATL. Had a friend on-board, crew said it was due to airspace congestion, ended up arriving in FLL almost 6 hours late.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 0#296e4384
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:46 pm

Anybody wanting to learn about the FAA, study the NextGen program history.
 
krsw757
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:19 pm

SteelChair wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This really doesn't clear things up at all. "ZJX often gets backlash from the command center," sounds like "We're gonna show them this time, we'll just shut down."

The bottom line is that ZJX was unable to provide service. When was the last time this happened? There have been ATC Zero events associated with Covid, but for an entire center to just shut down because they couldn't manage the situation, isn't that pretty much unheard of?

It actually clears things up quite well. ZJX is the red-headed stepchild of the east coast, and as much as I love giving them a hard time, they do deal with some significant challenges when it comes to weather and traffic flows. ZJX was not "unable to provide service", they were providing service to their abilities given the weather, airspace, and staffing constraints. You can't conjure up more controllers on short notice, you can't find more airspace without weather in it, and you can't invent new routes that work with traffic flows. ZJX did not go ATC-0, so it's a moot point. Even then, ATC-0 events happen somewhat more frequently than you think due to various reasons. ZDC had an ATC-0 event four years ago due to fumes from guys working on the roof.

I realize that you don't think government employees can adequately perform this job, but I would highly suggest you educate yourself further on the matter prior to being so critical. I would invite you to schedule a tour at your nearest ARTCC.


I don't blame the employees necessarily but the 1950s system and the horrible government management. Government is supposed to be a referee not an operator. Mho

Regarding your somewhat condescending remark to visit an ARTCC, I have been in the business many years. Been dealing with the FAA and have been in some of their facilities. Long history, for example: The imposition of ATC preferred routes implemented during the PATCO strike that were never removed, and are now SOP. Perhaps you remember all that or perhaps it was before your time? Then, the imposition of equipment requirements for RVSM and RNP, which were supposed to make the airplanes fly so precisely that the routes could be built closer both laterally and vertically, and therefore reduce enroute constraints. Not only never happened, but now we have FEA/FCA/AFP. We went backwards....delays grow worse all the time. Various annual FAA reports detail the seemingly continual increase in ATC delays.....pre Covid. I remember hearing Southwest on the call say one time, "you know our airplanes can get wet, right?" The most recent FAA ATC Controller workforce plan details that traffic peaked 20 years ago (page 8).

Safety....the usual fallback position. As if ATC is the only component of safety. I guess when we had fewer crashes and more traffic in the past, we were unsafe. No one at ATC waving the safety flag ever bothers to mention the design, manufacture, certification, operation, and maintenance of the aircraft. Guess they didn't talk about that at Oklahoma City.


This summer, we implemented the new metroplex routes in and out of Florida which look all beautiful on paper, but I’m in reality though have absolutely no room for disruptions. SIDs, STARS, and enroute airways are separated by 6 miles. Which the whole goal was to run essentially triple the amount of aircraft through each sector. Throw in one cloud and it eliminates the ability to run the new structure. Too add to that complexity, now you activate the military warning airspace along the coast and pinches things even more. That’s exactly what happened. We lost the entire east coast routes because aircraft had started deviating into active military airspace. Everything and I literally mean everything was forced to be rerouted to the west around the storm. At some point sectors get so saturated that it’s unsafe (many west coast sectors were working 4 times the aircraft they were designed for) so they’re forced into “shutting the door” on adjacent facilities. So regarding your condescending remark about closing to “show them” is completely wrong and frankly, insulting. I don’t think any controller gets any satisfaction of shutting someone down, because that’s how things get insane real fast and people get hurt.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:44 pm

lightsaber wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

So the question is, is this a cascade from yesterday or something else?

Serious question, has Southwest recalled all of the voluntary leave program? I heard of a recall in April (on duty in June), but I have no idea if that was all of them:


Didn’t WN have 6, 12, and 18-month furlough options? If I remember that correctly, the 18-month folks should just be coming back but no doubt need some time to get back current.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:59 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Two different acquaintances contacted me this evening for advise on how to get out of Florida. After the second I started doing some checking.
It seems Southwest has canceled 806 flights today, looks like mostly Florida and Southeast flights, other airlines affected as well.
https://flightaware.com/live/cancelled/

Multiple Twitter posts talking about a Walkout/sickout at Jacksonville Center over the vaccine mandate?
https://twitter.com/LelandVittert/statu ... 8966643713

Could Southwest be facing a sickout today as well?

Southwest Airlines was the main airline affected by the walk outs. On Twitter do a search Southwest canceled flights and you will find out it is pretty much all about Southwest.
Last edited by dc10lover on Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:14 pm

FlyingViking wrote:
I hear rumors of cancelations due to JAX Center shutdown. Any word as to why? And the impact on airlines?

It only affected Southwest when it should have affected all the airlines. AA,UA,DL even. The walk out by Southwest employees is a response of the Covid19 vaccine mandate. Pilots are filing suit. Wonder if other airlines will follow.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:15 pm

krsw757 wrote:

This summer, we implemented the new metroplex routes in and out of Florida which look all beautiful on paper, but I’m in reality though have absolutely no room for disruptions. SIDs, STARS, and enroute airways are separated by 6 miles. Which the whole goal was to run essentially triple the amount of aircraft through each sector. Throw in one cloud and it eliminates the ability to run the new structure. Too add to that complexity, now you activate the military warning airspace along the coast and pinches things even more. That’s exactly what happened. We lost the entire east coast routes because aircraft had started deviating into active military airspace. Everything and I literally mean everything was forced to be rerouted to the west around the storm. At some point sectors get so saturated that it’s unsafe (many west coast sectors were working 4 times the aircraft they were designed for) so they’re forced into “shutting the door” on adjacent facilities. So regarding your condescending remark about closing to “show them” is completely wrong and frankly, insulting. I don’t think any controller gets any satisfaction of shutting someone down, because that’s how things get insane real fast and people get hurt.


Very well said, thanks. And like I said the controllers working these sectors were by no means fresh. Many had been on position for 2-3, I even heard of a 4.5 hour stint. All with no help. All of Steelchair’s points go out the window at a facility like ZJX on a normal summer day. I’ve worked at a well structured, non-constrained level 12 facility and it is not even close to what those people do down at ZJX.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:25 pm

dc10lover wrote:
FlyingViking wrote:
I hear rumors of cancelations due to JAX Center shutdown. Any word as to why? And the impact on airlines?

It only affected Southwest when it should have affected all the airlines. AA,UA,DL even. The walk out by Southwest employees is a response of the Covid19 vaccine mandate. Pilots are filing suit. Wonder if other airlines will follow.


If you Google media reports, JAX Center staff and WN pilots are denying there’s been a walkout. WN employees are claiming that the airline’s disproportionate number of flights to/from Florida impacted it hard and is making a reset difficult.

There hasn’t been a single confirmation of sickouts at JAX Center, or among the pilots - pretty unusual from a historical perspective if they’re protesting the vaccine mandate. Very difficult to cover that up in today’s world. OTOH, plenty of employees are saying the opposite.

I know some of us have strong opinions about the vaccine mandate, but unless there’s any confirmation of such, the speculation in this thread should cease.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2789
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:34 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
mcdu wrote:
If sick leave numbers spiked then SW leadership needs to be at the court on Monday with an injunction against the pilot group. When this costs the pilots money via an assessment they may feel better quickly.

Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."

As a former IAM Negotiator, every CBA has this type of clause:

“ Should any part or provision of this Agreement be rendered invalid by reason of any existing or subsequently enacted legislation, such invalidation of any part or provision of this Agreement shall not invalidate the remaining portions thereof, and they shall remain in full force and effect.”

I would think a Federal Mandate will prevail over any Covid vaccine lawsuits in the airline industry as pilots and flight attendants have had mandatory vaccines for working international flights. Plus the CBAs don’t have language covering mandatory vaccines so it’s management rights.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8576
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:16 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
mcdu wrote:
If sick leave numbers spiked then SW leadership needs to be at the court on Monday with an injunction against the pilot group. When this costs the pilots money via an assessment they may feel better quickly.

Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."

As a former IAM Negotiator, every CBA has this type of clause:

“ Should any part or provision of this Agreement be rendered invalid by reason of any existing or subsequently enacted legislation, such invalidation of any part or provision of this Agreement shall not invalidate the remaining portions thereof, and they shall remain in full force and effect.”

I would think a Federal Mandate will prevail over any Covid vaccine lawsuits in the airline industry as pilots and flight attendants have had mandatory vaccines for working international flights. Plus the CBAs don’t have language covering mandatory vaccines so it’s management rights.


Almost certainly true, but won’t stop some from exercising their legal “rights” to sue in court.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:53 pm

dc10lover wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Two different acquaintances contacted me this evening for advise on how to get out of Florida. After the second I started doing some checking.
It seems Southwest has canceled 806 flights today, looks like mostly Florida and Southeast flights, other airlines affected as well.
https://flightaware.com/live/cancelled/

Multiple Twitter posts talking about a Walkout/sickout at Jacksonville Center over the vaccine mandate?
https://twitter.com/LelandVittert/statu ... 8966643713

Could Southwest be facing a sickout today as well?

Southwest Airlines was the main airline affected by the walk outs. On Twitter do a search Southwest canceled flights and you will find out it is pretty much all about Southwest.

Per Flightaware, over 1,000+ cancellations now, the last 24 hours. This is far more than just “ weather”.
 
nclarks
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:55 am

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:55 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
mcdu wrote:
If sick leave numbers spiked then SW leadership needs to be at the court on Monday with an injunction against the pilot group. When this costs the pilots money via an assessment they may feel better quickly.

Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."

As a former IAM Negotiator, every CBA has this type of clause:

“ Should any part or provision of this Agreement be rendered invalid by reason of any existing or subsequently enacted legislation, such invalidation of any part or provision of this Agreement shall not invalidate the remaining portions thereof, and they shall remain in full force and effect.”

I would think a Federal Mandate will prevail over any Covid vaccine lawsuits in the airline industry as pilots and flight attendants have had mandatory vaccines for working international flights. Plus the CBAs don’t have language covering mandatory vaccines so it’s management rights.


However, with the vaccines needed to get into some countries are mandated, the crews are moved to other flights/bases not terminated. So this makes some crew members want to make their "stand" I guess.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:55 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
mcdu wrote:
If sick leave numbers spiked then SW leadership needs to be at the court on Monday with an injunction against the pilot group. When this costs the pilots money via an assessment they may feel better quickly.

Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."

As a former IAM Negotiator, every CBA has this type of clause:

“ Should any part or provision of this Agreement be rendered invalid by reason of any existing or subsequently enacted legislation, such invalidation of any part or provision of this Agreement shall not invalidate the remaining portions thereof, and they shall remain in full force and effect.”

I would think a Federal Mandate will prevail over any Covid vaccine lawsuits in the airline industry as pilots and flight attendants have had mandatory vaccines for working international flights. Plus the CBAs don’t have language covering mandatory vaccines so it’s management rights.

That’s just it, there is no “Federal Mandate”. There isn’t even an official proposal for one n paper.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:19 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."

As a former IAM Negotiator, every CBA has this type of clause:

“ Should any part or provision of this Agreement be rendered invalid by reason of any existing or subsequently enacted legislation, such invalidation of any part or provision of this Agreement shall not invalidate the remaining portions thereof, and they shall remain in full force and effect.”

I would think a Federal Mandate will prevail over any Covid vaccine lawsuits in the airline industry as pilots and flight attendants have had mandatory vaccines for working international flights. Plus the CBAs don’t have language covering mandatory vaccines so it’s management rights.

That’s just it, there is no “Federal Mandate”. There isn’t even an official proposal for one n paper.

Yes there is for federal employees and federal contractors.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2789
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:19 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Union filed a lawsuit yesterday to stop the mandate, as a violation of the Railway Labor Act. They are at loggerheads with management over it, and a couple of other issues they say are violations of the CBA and RLA.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/sou ... on-mandate

"The new vaccine mandate unlawfully imposes new conditions of employment and the new policy threatens termination of any pilot not fully vaccinated by December 8, 2021," the legal filing said. "Southwest Airlines’ additional new and unilateral modification of the parties’ collective bargaining agreement is in clear violation of the RLA."

As a former IAM Negotiator, every CBA has this type of clause:

“ Should any part or provision of this Agreement be rendered invalid by reason of any existing or subsequently enacted legislation, such invalidation of any part or provision of this Agreement shall not invalidate the remaining portions thereof, and they shall remain in full force and effect.”

I would think a Federal Mandate will prevail over any Covid vaccine lawsuits in the airline industry as pilots and flight attendants have had mandatory vaccines for working international flights. Plus the CBAs don’t have language covering mandatory vaccines so it’s management rights.

That’s just it, there is no “Federal Mandate”. There isn’t even an official proposal for one n paper.

It most certainly is:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... ntractors/
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4730
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:31 pm

From a source in AUS:

"ALL Southwest ramp agents walked out here in Austin".
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2789
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:33 pm

Maverick623 wrote:
From a source in AUS:

"ALL Southwest ramp agents walked out here in Austin".

That would be illegal under the Railway Labor Act. It doesn’t permit Wildcat Strikes as does their CBA with WN.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Maverick623 wrote:
From a source in AUS:

"ALL Southwest ramp agents walked out here in Austin".

That would be illegal under the Railway Labor Act. It doesn’t permit Wildcat Strikes as does their CBA with WN.

Ok but if true you still have no rampers
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10169
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:49 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
WN employees are claiming that the airline’s disproportionate number of flights to/from Florida impacted it hard and is making a reset difficult.


That's an easily verifiable objective fact (for somebody with the right database access). DL and AA certainly have a lot of Florida flights, too, and avoided a meltdown.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
WN employees are claiming that the airline’s disproportionate number of flights to/from Florida impacted it hard and is making a reset difficult.


That's an easily verifiable objective fact (for somebody with the right database access). DL and AA certainly have a lot of Florida flights, too, and avoided a meltdown.

Yah but doesn’t WN schedule their flight more as long multi city legs then out and backs from their hubs? If you cancel an out and back your plane is still positioned for its next flight. If you have a multi city direct flight the whole line is ruined.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4643
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Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:22 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I don't blame the employees necessarily but the 1950s system and the horrible government management. Government is supposed to be a referee not an operator.

Not sure what you mean by 1950s system. We're getting new 42" widescreen scopes at all centers and it makes our sectors look as modern as ever. ERAM as a system could be better, but it's extremely reliable and it gets the job done effectively. We're running CPDLC in towers and some centers, and the US had descend/climb via procedures years before other countries. All of our charts and quick references are digitized on large touchscreens on every sector. The only thing that's old about our facilities are the buildings themselves. If the government is supposed to be a referee and not an operator, then you might want to tell just about every other country in the world. Just because most countries use privatized companies to operate air traffic services, they're almost all fully government owned.

SteelChair wrote:
I Regarding your somewhat condescending remark to visit an ARTCC, I have been in the business many years. Been dealing with the FAA and have been in some of their facilities. Long history, for example: The imposition of ATC preferred routes implemented during the PATCO strike that were never removed, and are now SOP. Perhaps you remember all that or perhaps it was before your time? Then, the imposition of equipment requirements for RVSM and RNP, which were supposed to make the airplanes fly so precisely that the routes could be built closer both laterally and vertically, and therefore reduce enroute constraints. Not only never happened, but now we have FEA/FCA/AFP. We went backwards....delays grow worse all the time. Various annual FAA reports detail the seemingly continual increase in ATC delays.....pre Covid. I remember hearing Southwest on the call say one time, "you know our airplanes can get wet, right?" The most recent FAA ATC Controller workforce plan details that traffic peaked 20 years ago (page 8).

That's great. I work in a center, along with a bunch of other people posting here. I realize that you think you're well informed on this subject, it's clear that we believe otherwise based on the statements you've made. The fact that you think our systems are from the 1950s tells me that you probably haven't stepped foot in a center in a very, very long time. To your point about traffic having peaked 20 years ago — we're at 30 year staffing lows. We're still doing the same amount of work commensurate to the number of controllers employed. Yes, we have significantly more automation now, but an area is now effectively staffed with 8 controllers during busy periods, whereas two decades ago it might have required nearly twice as many. We're still doing the same work.

SteelChair wrote:
ISafety....the usual fallback position. As if ATC is the only component of safety. I guess when we had fewer crashes and more traffic in the past, we were unsafe.

Fewer crashes in the past? You really need to do some research on the number of incidents and accidents in previous decades if you think there were fewer accidents compared to now. Air traffic is unequivocally safer in every aspect today compared to past decades. Obviously you have an ax to grind, but I'm telling you that you're way off the mark on a number of points you've raised.
 
bchandl
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: Southwest System Meltdown Today Due To Walkout at Jacksonville Center?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:31 pm

jmc1975 wrote:
You are now free to move about the country.


Via your own car. Because our pilots are a bunch of grown adults yet are unable to take their own personal health and public health seriously enough to get a simple vaccine.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
WN employees are claiming that the airline’s disproportionate number of flights to/from Florida impacted it hard and is making a reset difficult.


That's an easily verifiable objective fact (for somebody with the right database access). DL and AA certainly have a lot of Florida flights, too, and avoided a meltdown.


That’s incorrect - AA, NK and B6 have/had a very large number of lengthy delays over the past 24 hours, for example. The “meltdown” began at the end of the day yesterday… given the way WN schedules, it’s a reasonable explanation that their crews began timing out, and a reset has been difficult.

Nearly 24 hours later and there’s not a single confirmation that a walkout caused this. Even WN’s unions are denying that rogue actions caused this. And let’s be rational… if the speculation was true, then the walkout was limited to pilots flying to/from Florida at the end of the day yesterday and the whole thing has been kept under wraps in the social media era. Does that seem reasonable?
 
ozark1
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:41 pm

i may be dumb, but i dont think this has much to do with Covid mandates. I think it has everything to do with their (pilots) their frustration with WN. Something happened a few weeks ago with hotels, and im sure the MAX had something to do with it. I may be wrong but arent they in contract negotiations? I apologize if they arent. After having been in a union for 43 years, i am very glad to be retired. Dont get me wrong, they did a lot of great things for us, but they are automatically cynical and distrustful of the company. Thats their job really. To be antagonistic. Im sorry that WN just didnt come out and say, we are having bad weather and a crew shortage. To just blame it on weather makes me feel that, slowly but surely, they are losing their uniqueness.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15186
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Did JAX Center temporarily shutdown yesterday 10/8?

Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:17 pm

ozark1 wrote:
i may be dumb, but i dont think this has much to do with Covid mandates. I think it has everything to do with their (pilots) their frustration with WN. Something happened a few weeks ago with hotels, and im sure the MAX had something to do with it. I may be wrong but arent they in contract negotiations? I apologize if they arent. After having been in a union for 43 years, i am very glad to be retired. Dont get me wrong, they did a lot of great things for us, but they are automatically cynical and distrustful of the company. Thats their job really. To be antagonistic. Im sorry that WN just didnt come out and say, we are having bad weather and a crew shortage. To just blame it on weather makes me feel that, slowly but surely, they are losing their uniqueness.

Rumor is ATC Jacksonville employees walked out in protest Friday night for a mass unscheduled break in protest of COVID vaccine mandates. Make of that what you will but it apparently started with the ATC on Friday leading to 650 canceled flights. Then the pilots at WN took a turn. Then some rampers.

The point of any successful walkout protest is to disrupt in a very obvious and unavoidable way to force awareness. The US media is trying not to cover this, just like they didn’t cover anything in Australia, but more disruptions are coming.

So far, the media is not reporting on the real reasons for the port backlogs in LA and NY (job action related to COVID protocols and mandates) not reporting on the ATC and WN delays accurately, blaming it on weather.

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