Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:14 pm

Unfortunately a C340 went down this afternoon in a neighborhood near Gillespie Field in Santee, CA. Its destination was KMYF and had apparently originated in KYUM. Several structures were damaged and there’s some ugly video from neighborhood bystanders floating around on Twitter.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 40994/?amp

People in the El Cajon area have been trying to get Gillespie closed for decades...cue the San Diego media getting that discussion restarted in 3..2..

Hope NTSB can quickly get to the bottom of this one quickly.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Unfortunately a C340 went down this afternoon in a neighborhood near Gillespie Field in Santee, CA. Its destination was KMYF and had apparently originated in KYUM. Several structures were damaged and there’s some ugly video from neighborhood bystanders floating around on Twitter.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 40994/?amp

People in the El Cajon area have been trying to get Gillespie closed for decades...cue the San Diego media getting that discussion restarted in 3..2..

Hope NTSB can quickly get to the bottom of this one quickly.

Sad indeed. RIP to those in the plane (I have not head of any survivors).

And regarding trying to get it closed... I have not heard of any/many active significant efforts to do so over the years. The occasional complaint etc but nothing that I have seen to be a real effort. BUt of course we will see what happens now.

Tugg
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Unfortunately a C340 went down this afternoon in a neighborhood near Gillespie Field in Santee, CA. Its destination was KMYF and had apparently originated in KYUM. Several structures were damaged and there’s some ugly video from neighborhood bystanders floating around on Twitter.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 40994/?amp

People in the El Cajon area have been trying to get Gillespie closed for decades...cue the San Diego media getting that discussion restarted in 3..2..

Hope NTSB can quickly get to the bottom of this one quickly.

Sad indeed. RIP to those in the plane (I have not head of any survivors).

And regarding trying to get it closed... I have not heard of any/many active significant efforts to do so over the years. The occasional complaint etc but nothing that I have seen to be a real effort. BUt of course we will see what happens now.

Tugg


This organization has been around awhile. There was also some kind of effort in the 80s IIRC.

https://www.cagelfa.com/
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:32 pm

Weather was MVFR at 2700 and broken shortly before the crash. He was having issues getting on to the ILS for Montgomery, and seemed very confused on the radio. Not instrument current, or not rated at all?

The home base was Yuma, not really known for its extended IFR conditions.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:36 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Unfortunately a C340 went down this afternoon in a neighborhood near Gillespie Field in Santee, CA. Its destination was KMYF and had apparently originated in KYUM. Several structures were damaged and there’s some ugly video from neighborhood bystanders floating around on Twitter.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 40994/?amp

People in the El Cajon area have been trying to get Gillespie closed for decades...cue the San Diego media getting that discussion restarted in 3..2..

Hope NTSB can quickly get to the bottom of this one quickly.

Sad indeed. RIP to those in the plane (I have not head of any survivors).

And regarding trying to get it closed... I have not heard of any/many active significant efforts to do so over the years. The occasional complaint etc but nothing that I have seen to be a real effort. BUt of course we will see what happens now.

Tugg


This organization has been around awhile. There was also some kind of effort in the 80s IIRC.

https://www.cagelfa.com/

He was trying to get into Montgomery, not Gillespie. Will they demand that MYF close, as well?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:44 pm

Security cam footage here - not a good look.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/ ... lane-crash
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Security cam footage here - not a good look.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/ ... lane-crash

No kidding….
Looks like classic spatial disorientation. And that looks like solid overcast, not broken.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1295
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:49 pm

 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:53 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Security cam footage here - not a good look.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/ ... lane-crash

No kidding….
Looks like classic spatial disorientation. And that looks like solid overcast, not broken.


There’s blue sky in the upper left of the video, lots of visibility, too. Not anything hazardous to an instrument rated pilot remotely current.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11534
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:57 pm

Two on the ground dead, one was a UPS driver
Image
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/11/us/san-d ... index.html

Don't see info on the other yet.

Tugg
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
Two on the ground dead, one was a UPS driver
Image
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/11/us/san-d ... index.html

Don't see info on the other yet.

Tugg


Terrible...talk about wrong place, wrong time
 
B717fan
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:32 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:20 am

 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:39 am

Armodeen wrote:


That’s a lot of fire. I would expect it from the crash at PDK on Friday as that was on takeoff for a very long (relative to GA) flight. This was at the end of a relatively short flight, and that is a lot of fire. My guess is they were filled full and then only used about 1/4 of their tank. Sad for those on the ground in particular.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:05 am

B717fan wrote:


Right on target. Aircraft registered to Samarth Aviation LLC, owned by a cardiologist who worked at Yuma Regional Med Center. Doc was a regular commuter between San Diego and both Yuma/Phoenix.

https://kyma.com/news/2021/10/11/breaki ... go-suburb/
 
Noshow
Posts: 2847
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:39 am

The flight path looks super accurate over most of the flight. But then speed and course deviate going to extremes finally. Is this the software displaying it just this way or did the pilot encounter possible health problems or similar?
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:12 am

This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:16 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:36 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.


Anyone who keeps up with the AOPA safety circulars knows this topic gets a lot of attention. MD and lawyer pilots aren’t really known for keeping up on their safety reading.

Re this guy though he lived in San Dee and commuted to Yuma. The San Diego area is no stranger to marine layer IMC some parts of the year.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:08 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.
I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.


Anyone who keeps up with the AOPA safety circulars knows this topic gets a lot of attention. MD and lawyer pilots aren’t really known for keeping up on their safety reading.

Re this guy though he lived in San Dee and commuted to Yuma. The San Diego area is no stranger to marine layer IMC some parts of the year.

True, but usually it is just a thin layer, and clear above. You can get out using special IFR.

Note the tape, this guy was overloaded and stressed in busy airspace. I have no idea what his panel was, but he said he was trying to pick up the ILS for Montgomery. He was probably used to letting the autopilot fly the glide slope for him. In IMC, approach hollering at him, leaning over trying to program the FIS, takes his attention away from the horizon, and the aircraft starts to bank, the nose drops, he picks up speed, the rest is an old tale that has taken many lives over the last 100 years.

Lots of questions that will never be answered here.
Did the autopilot kick off due to turns and he was hand flying?
Did he forget the pitot heat when he went into the cloud?
Etc…
 
aden23
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 11:12 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:18 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Fascinating video, but can you help me understand what exactly is happening here?

It sounds like airspeed is high, the pilot is pulling back on the controls, but altitude is dropping. What's happening here?

I understand that disorientation may be occurring, but why doesn't the pilot look at the attitude indicator to see the orientation of the plane?

I'm not trying to be rude or insensitive, just trying to better understand what's going on.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:31 pm

Spatial D is a very powerful stressor and it takes experience and discipline to ignore it and orient oneself by the flight instruments. It’s not near as simple as looking at the speedometer on your car.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:50 pm

aden23 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Fascinating video, but can you help me understand what exactly is happening here?

It sounds like airspeed is high, the pilot is pulling back on the controls, but altitude is dropping. What's happening here?

I understand that disorientation may be occurring, but why doesn't the pilot look at the attitude indicator to see the orientation of the plane?

I'm not trying to be rude or insensitive, just trying to better understand what's going on.

If the plane is already in an unusual attitude, pulling on the yolk only increases the rebate of the turn, not raise the nose. He needed to pull the power and level the wings first, but he would only know that by looking at the instruments, not outside.

You have to learn to ignore what your ears are telling, and how to scan and trust your instruments. Often your ears will tell you to do the exact opposite of what the instruments say. Vertigo takes hold of you, and you may not notice what is happening, until it is to late.

I am not an IR pilot, but Impay attention to this, having lost some friends to it in the last three years.
 
11C
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:04 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.


I know what you are saying regarding the weather in Arizona, but there have always been many airline training programs based there. It is a great place to have flight schools, but naturally, they all spend lots of time flying under the hood. I have flown with some light twin owners in the GA world, and most I flew with were very meticulous, and maintained a training program at Flight Safety modeled after 121 programs. I think anyone who tries to get away with anything less is asking for trouble. That being said, I have no idea what led to the accident in San Diego, and I think it is disrespectful to toss around theories at this point.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:15 pm

11C wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.


I know what you are saying regarding the weather in Arizona, but there have always been many airline training programs based there. It is a great place to have flight schools, but naturally, they all spend lots of time flying under the hood. I have flown with some light twin owners in the GA world, and most I flew with were very meticulous, and maintained a training program at Flight Safety modeled after 121 programs. I think anyone who tries to get away with anything less is asking for trouble. That being said, I have no idea what led to the accident in San Diego, and I think it is disrespectful to toss around theories at this point.


When you see enough of it over the years, it becomes easy to recognize. When you personally know more than one person that has died this way, and attended the funerals, it makes it a bit starker. Hearing the tape, seeing the flight path, and how the plane came out of the cloud makes it a pretty clear indication of classic spatial disorientation. It’s still speculation, of course, but a pretty educated one.

I have known more than one pilot over the years that has gotten in above their heads, and paid for it. I also know more than one motorcycle rider, or car driver, that has done the same, it isn’t exclusive to just pilots. A single moment of inattention can kill you.

As pilots, we try to train for that eventuality, and recognize when it happens, so that we can stop it. But training is a perishable skill that has to be reinforced from time to time, no matter the vocation.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1083
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:17 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Saw video a while ago . I was actually thinking about returning to recreational flying after retirement but that video convinced me that at 65 it was time to say no. Too many memories of close calls and I'm not sure my guardian angel is still available.
 
User avatar
LAXdenizen
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:46 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:49 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Sad indeed. RIP to those in the plane (I have not head of any survivors).

And regarding trying to get it closed... I have not heard of any/many active significant efforts to do so over the years. The occasional complaint etc but nothing that I have seen to be a real effort. BUt of course we will see what happens now.

Tugg


This organization has been around awhile. There was also some kind of effort in the 80s IIRC.

https://www.cagelfa.com/

He was trying to get into Montgomery, not Gillespie. Will they demand that MYF close, as well?


The airspace around Montgomery & Gillespie is some of the busiest, most stressful airspace imaginable. All of San Diego, actually, with Lindbergh, Miramar, North Island, Brown Field, et. al, all crammed together in this little corner of the geographical US. It's incredible there haven't been more midair accidents.

San Diego residents have taken a hefty historical beating of aircraft crashing into residential areas. The scars of PSA 182 are still raw after 40+ years. I grew up in University City 4 blocks from the nonsensical 2008 F-18 crash that wiped out an entire family. The threat of an air crash is just part of life in SD. Here we are again.

If evidence bears out that stress had a part in this disaster I would gladly support an effort to tame the stress of the congested SD skies.
 
SoCalPilot
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:09 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.

I've run into this guy at Yuma. He's been commuting between Yuma and San Diego for years, I highly doubt he doesn't have an instrument rating or IFR experience. Very rarely do I not have to shoot an approach into San Diego.

With that said, I've flown Yuma to San Diego countless times, so much so that I know what ATC is going to say before they say it. On days like yesterday the turbulence coming over the mountains into San Diego can be pretty insane, and could definitely lead to a loss of control if in IMC.
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:17 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
11C wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.


I know what you are saying regarding the weather in Arizona, but there have always been many airline training programs based there. It is a great place to have flight schools, but naturally, they all spend lots of time flying under the hood. I have flown with some light twin owners in the GA world, and most I flew with were very meticulous, and maintained a training program at Flight Safety modeled after 121 programs. I think anyone who tries to get away with anything less is asking for trouble. That being said, I have no idea what led to the accident in San Diego, and I think it is disrespectful to toss around theories at this point.


When you see enough of it over the years, it becomes easy to recognize. When you personally know more than one person that has died this way, and attended the funerals, it makes it a bit starker. Hearing the tape, seeing the flight path, and how the plane came out of the cloud makes it a pretty clear indication of classic spatial disorientation. It’s still speculation, of course, but a pretty educated one.

I have known more than one pilot over the years that has gotten in above their heads, and paid for it. I also know more than one motorcycle rider, or car driver, that has done the same, it isn’t exclusive to just pilots. A single moment of inattention can kill you.

As pilots, we try to train for that eventuality, and recognize when it happens, so that we can stop it. But training is a perishable skill that has to be reinforced from time to time, no matter the vocation.


Which is a pretty big bias, no? I am all for theories at this point. I am not for certainty. It's important to know personal minimums, it is also important to not paint so broad of a brush that every IR rated pilot who isn't part 121 is destined for a problem.
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
This pretty much describes what happened

178 Seconds To Live
https://youtu.be/pc9xI4kpY4w


Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.


This video is more about VFR flying into IMC inadvertently. It shouldn't be applied unnecessarily to an IR Pilot in an IFR situation. Otherwise, we just shouldn't have IR pilots that aren't 121 pilots, which I certainly wouldn't advocate for.

Whether this is what happened to this guy, or if something else, I'll let the NTSB figure that out. I agree it is a strong theory, but far from certain.
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:26 pm

LAXdenizen wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This organization has been around awhile. There was also some kind of effort in the 80s IIRC.

https://www.cagelfa.com/

He was trying to get into Montgomery, not Gillespie. Will they demand that MYF close, as well?


The airspace around Montgomery & Gillespie is some of the busiest, most stressful airspace imaginable. All of San Diego, actually, with Lindbergh, Miramar, North Island, Brown Field, et. al, all crammed together in this little corner of the geographical US. It's incredible there haven't been more midair accidents.

San Diego residents have taken a hefty historical beating of aircraft crashing into residential areas. The scars of PSA 182 are still raw after 40+ years. I grew up in University City 4 blocks from the nonsensical 2008 F-18 crash that wiped out an entire family. The threat of an air crash is just part of life in SD. Here we are again.

If evidence bears out that stress had a part in this disaster I would gladly support an effort to tame the stress of the congested SD skies.


I am not convinced the airspace has anything to do with this crash. The leading theory (and I stress, just a theory) is that this is very similar to Atlas Air 3591. Also, the recording removed chunks which makes it sound like the step downs were more succinct than they were. There are a lot of busy airspaces in this country and I don't particularly feel San Diego has anything significantly worse than LA, NY and at times TPA and MCO. The Class Bravo in SAN is 32 miles wide (north to south), Class Bravo in LAX is 28 miles wide (north to south) with a LOT more aircraft coming through and a lot more auxiliary airports to feed.
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Unfortunately a C340 went down this afternoon in a neighborhood near Gillespie Field in Santee, CA. Its destination was KMYF and had apparently originated in KYUM. Several structures were damaged and there’s some ugly video from neighborhood bystanders floating around on Twitter.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 40994/?amp

People in the El Cajon area have been trying to get Gillespie closed for decades...cue the San Diego media getting that discussion restarted in 3..2..

Hope NTSB can quickly get to the bottom of this one quickly.

Sad indeed. RIP to those in the plane (I have not head of any survivors).

And regarding trying to get it closed... I have not heard of any/many active significant efforts to do so over the years. The occasional complaint etc but nothing that I have seen to be a real effort. BUt of course we will see what happens now.

Tugg


This organization has been around awhile. There was also some kind of effort in the 80s IIRC.

https://www.cagelfa.com/


That website is bizarre. The first few bullet points are reasonable objections, such as whether the county needs eight GA airports, and whether it would be better served by different economic developments.

Then they hit you with this gem:

• Gillespie Field is 99% General Aviation (small planes). TERRORISTS and DRUG CARTELS are known to commandeer small planes


To quote Ron Burgundy: “That escalated quickly.”
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:53 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:

To quote Ron Burgundy: “That escalated quickly.”


:rotfl: The most famous San Diegoan there ever was.


Also...

Trainee pilots are NOT required to go through background checks or drug testing


That is not a FAA requirement for any pilots. So they might as well just say all GA pilots are not required to go through background checks or drug testing.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 14172
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:36 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvwt1UpyXXc
ATC with pilot.

The ATC tried hard to get him to correct for a long period.
 
11C
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:15 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
11C wrote:

I know what you are saying regarding the weather in Arizona, but there have always been many airline training programs based there. It is a great place to have flight schools, but naturally, they all spend lots of time flying under the hood. I have flown with some light twin owners in the GA world, and most I flew with were very meticulous, and maintained a training program at Flight Safety modeled after 121 programs. I think anyone who tries to get away with anything less is asking for trouble. That being said, I have no idea what led to the accident in San Diego, and I think it is disrespectful to toss around theories at this point.


When you see enough of it over the years, it becomes easy to recognize. When you personally know more than one person that has died this way, and attended the funerals, it makes it a bit starker. Hearing the tape, seeing the flight path, and how the plane came out of the cloud makes it a pretty clear indication of classic spatial disorientation. It’s still speculation, of course, but a pretty educated one.

I have known more than one pilot over the years that has gotten in above their heads, and paid for it. I also know more than one motorcycle rider, or car driver, that has done the same, it isn’t exclusive to just pilots. A single moment of inattention can kill you.

As pilots, we try to train for that eventuality, and recognize when it happens, so that we can stop it. But training is a perishable skill that has to be reinforced from time to time, no matter the vocation.


Which is a pretty big bias, no? I am all for theories at this point. I am not for certainty. It's important to know personal minimums, it is also important to not paint so broad of a brush that every IR rated pilot who isn't part 121 is destined for a problem.


Not exactly sure who in this string you are replying to, but I’ll take a whack at it. For an aircraft owner that primarily earns his/her living from something besides aviation, extra training is a good idea. Not everyone chooses this route, and not everyone can afford to. But if you’ve invested in a light twin, you should consider investing in more than the required minimum training. That’s all I’m saying, and there are many accidents that support my view. Bottom line is, if you have the money, spend some on extra flying, and/or training. It will pay off when it’s not a clear sky day, and maybe help with assessing if you should consider not flying that day.
 
Piedmont500
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:30 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:20 pm

The Beech Bonanza has been called the “V tailed doctor killer”. It’s not the only type that can be deadly for physicians.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:54 pm

Piedmont500 wrote:
The Beech Bonanza has been called the “V tailed doctor killer”. It’s not the only type that can be deadly for physicians.


High performance twins are certainly no picnic, even if both motors are in good working order. Unless upgraded, the panels are busy and cluttered, just a lot going on in general.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:56 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Seems pretty likely - will be curious to see if this doc was instrument rated or not. In another home security cam video it sounds like the engines were at a pretty high power setting.

Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.

I've run into this guy at Yuma. He's been commuting between Yuma and San Diego for years, I highly doubt he doesn't have an instrument rating or IFR experience. Very rarely do I not have to shoot an approach into San Diego.

With that said, I've flown Yuma to San Diego countless times, so much so that I know what ATC is going to say before they say it. On days like yesterday the turbulence coming over the mountains into San Diego can be pretty insane, and could definitely lead to a loss of control if in IMC.


That’s an excellent point - those winds can really be nasty without the usual onshore flow.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:36 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Rated and Current vs. Experienced enough are two very different things, especially for a guy living in Yuma, Arizona, where they MAY see a cloud for a couple of weeks in deep winter.

I wish I could say loss of control in IMC was uncommon, but it isn't. It is why the airlines and commercial operators drill unusual attitudes recovery endlessly.

I've run into this guy at Yuma. He's been commuting between Yuma and San Diego for years, I highly doubt he doesn't have an instrument rating or IFR experience. Very rarely do I not have to shoot an approach into San Diego.

With that said, I've flown Yuma to San Diego countless times, so much so that I know what ATC is going to say before they say it. On days like yesterday the turbulence coming over the mountains into San Diego can be pretty insane, and could definitely lead to a loss of control if in IMC.


That’s an excellent point - those winds can really be nasty without the usual onshore flow.

Nasty enough that the autopilot could puke at exactly the wrong time?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:52 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
I've run into this guy at Yuma. He's been commuting between Yuma and San Diego for years, I highly doubt he doesn't have an instrument rating or IFR experience. Very rarely do I not have to shoot an approach into San Diego.

With that said, I've flown Yuma to San Diego countless times, so much so that I know what ATC is going to say before they say it. On days like yesterday the turbulence coming over the mountains into San Diego can be pretty insane, and could definitely lead to a loss of control if in IMC.


That’s an excellent point - those winds can really be nasty without the usual onshore flow.

Nasty enough that the autopilot could puke at exactly the wrong time?


If it was engaged at all - definitely something for NTSB to look at. Also the performance in turbulence depends on the generation of AP installed - some of those Bendix models from the early 80s don’t exactly have high G limits.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:03 pm

I wouldn’t bet the NTSB will be the investigator, could be delegated to the FAA.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:04 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That’s an excellent point - those winds can really be nasty without the usual onshore flow.

Nasty enough that the autopilot could puke at exactly the wrong time?


If it was engaged at all - definitely something for NTSB to look at. Also the performance in turbulence depends on the generation of AP installed - some of those Bendix models from the early 80s don’t exactly have high G limits.

I fly a light sport now, the TruTrak will over correct, and then puke, in bad thermal turbulence. Have to always be ready to take over once the oscillations start.
But it does have a “Wings Level” button for times exactly like this. Wings level, then let it fly you out of the cloud 180 degrees back to where you started.
This is from a pilot board about this incident, and it pretty much spells it out:

“He failed to fly the airplane.
He failed to comply with ATC requests (over a span of minutes and numerous pleading requests)
He lied repeatedly about his actively complying with those requests ("Correcting..." when he was not)
He failed to ask for help if he was behind the plane
He failed to ask for help if he was suffering a malfunction

That broken layer would have allowed him a few peeks at the ground, I'd wager. If he was ever looking out any window. 800 foot thick broken layer, c'mon, that's not an operational hazard. I bet a 40 hour PPL could manage that.

He even knew he was in the kimchi when he told ATC he was at 2500 after being cleared several times to 5000.

I hate this accident the more and more I ponder it.”
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:12 am

Autopilots serve pilots, the autopilot isn’t there to bail a pilot out who’s in over his ability.

I listened to a pilot near KHPN spiral into the ground one night, decades ago. The report said he knew the gyros or vacuum pump were unreliable, so had his wife fly home on an airline because he thought it was risky. Well, dude, listen to yourself, please. There are unrecoverable one-time errors.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:29 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Autopilots serve pilots, the autopilot isn’t there to bail a pilot out who’s in over his ability.

I listened to a pilot near KHPN spiral into the ground one night, decades ago. The report said he knew the gyros or vacuum pump were unreliable, so had his wife fly home on an airline because he thought it was risky. Well, dude, listen to yourself, please. There are unrecoverable one-time errors.

Inadvertent IMC is exactly what the wings level button was designed for, a safety feature that can save lives. It brings the wings to gps level, climb/descent to zero, then begins a slow turn to the last course entered.

The designer explains it himself on YouTube.
https://youtu.be/UkbRtv5DZ4Y
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:00 am

Relying on that rather than making proper risk analysis and maintaining proficiency makes one a dead man walking. The Pilot should always be the master of the situation, not rely on a device to do something he cannot do by hand flying. If that means cancel, so be it.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:01 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Relying on that rather than making proper risk analysis and maintaining proficiency makes one a dead man walking. The Pilot should always be the master of the situation, not rely on a device to do something he cannot do by hand flying. If that means cancel, so be it.


When is GF's safety column going to grace the pages of Flying or P&P? Dick Collins's shoes are still waiting to be filled...
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:30 am

Dick was a great writer, I still have copies of the original Air Facts magazine with articles from him and his father, Leighton. A real foundation for me. He had probably 25,000 hours of single-engine time, a lot of actual IFR time in them, too. N40RC was his C172 and he flew it for years in the Northeast in IMC, year round. I met him once very briefly at the old Reading Air Show. Hoover in thd 51 was the headliner, as always. Great memory flying a Cherokee 180 in there.

The Mooney M20 had the PC wing leveler in 1968, the concept isn’t new.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Relying on that rather than making proper risk analysis and maintaining proficiency makes one a dead man walking. The Pilot should always be the master of the situation, not rely on a device to do something he cannot do by hand flying. If that means cancel, so be it.

I missed your last part about the fact pump. Dealt with a vac failure in the old Sundowner, but it wasn’t IMC, so a non-event. The newer GPS based stuff eliminates that part of the failure chain, my aircraft now doesn’t even have a vac pump. But you still have to know how to fly it by hand. As I inferred, my little 800 lb. airplane doesn’t handle thermal turbs very well, and the autopilot doesn’t either.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Topic Author
Posts: 16545
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:08 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Dick was a great writer, I still have copies of the original Air Facts magazine with articles from him and his father, Leighton. A real foundation for me. He had probably 25,000 hours of single-engine time, a lot of actual IFR time in them, too. N40RC was his C172 and he flew it for years in the Northeast in IMC, year round. I met him once very briefly at the old Reading Air Show. Hoover in thd 51 was the headliner, as always. Great memory flying a Cherokee 180 in there.

The Mooney M20 had the PC wing leveler in 1968, the concept isn’t new.


I don’t know what opinion you hold of your own writing, I’m just saying your takes on safety here over the years have always been very digestible and reminiscent of Collins. More pilots need to hear and learn from that.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8594
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: C340 Crash In KSEE Neighborhood

Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:23 am

Collins taught me that operations are hazardous, not an airplane, an approach or an airport. Operations are managed by assessing and avoiding or mitigations risk, which might mean a divert, a canceled flight or a safe one. When he was active, we had a vacuum pump with a MBTF of about 500 hours. Back up was needle, ball, and airspeed which was difficult for the proficient.

Today, there’s little excuse for an IFR-equipped plane not to have highly reliable electronic instruments, a second attitude indicator and an autopilot. He’d be saddened deeply by crashes like this one. We keep crashing planes the same way despite training opportunities, lessons learned, better equipment. The weather here wasn’t challenging he was , from what I gather, this pilot was fairly current, if not perhaps in basic instruments. Lacking FDR and CVR data, it’ll be tough to figure out.

I actually like writing, especially for work on aviation or safety topics. It requires one to analyze, question what is asserted and do interesting research. I’m too blinkered and set in my ways for this stuff—I’m rushed because of household stuff, using a touch keyboard is awful and I’m peripherally attentive. I love beating up our guys on technical writing—using jargon, failing to explain acronyms, leaving gaps.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos