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2175301
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:26 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
Welll, some of us have been to law school... I'm not practicing attorney, but I know enough to be dangerous. :D

Constitutional scholars will argue whether an executive order is constitutional or not in court. For example, does a federal action intrude into the realm of a state's protected 10th Amendment reserved powers? Does a mandatory jab result in a 4th Amendment violation? Maybe, maybe not. That can lead to lawsuits being viable, or not. After that, the litigators may take over. I make no predictions and take no sides, I'm just scratching the surface of what could be argued and litigated.

And remember, just because the federal gov't orders something doesn't mean that its legal, and that private industry is shielded from liability. There are exceptions to every "rule."


If you have been to law school then you should have at least 1st read the executive order, and see what it does.

Executive Order 14042: COVID Safety Protocols for Federal Contractors (title summarized)

President Biden ordered that the “Safer Federal Workforce Task Force” develop guidelines and standards for Federal Contractors within the United States. The Safer Federal Workforce Task Force is a multi-federal agency/department committee.

These guidelines and standards would apply to all New contracts, New revisions of existing contracts, and any New options exercised under existing contracts (which by standard contract rules require a revision to the contract to activate the option). They would not apply to existing contracts (many of which run for years), as long as there are no revisions (or changes) to those contracts.

The Safer Federal Workforce Task Force decided to implement a Covid-19 vaccine requirement for all new or revised federal contracts based on CDC recommendations that vaccines were the best method of controlling Covid-19 effects on the economy and workforce. Standard medical and religious exemptions, CDC working condition exceptions, and newly hired employee grace periods are all included.

This would affect any revised or renewed agreements involving federal contracts. The timing of that requirement could easily extend up to a year or more depending on the company and the contracts they have (how often does the company sign a revised or updated contract, and the government purchasing agencies like to have renewals spread out across the year).

However, in the case of Boeing. I'm betting they are signing new, revised, and updated contract every month. Now they could either say no to all of those new goverment contracts and various revisions and updates; or implement the vaccine requirement.

No one is forcing any company to sign a new or revised or updated contract with the Federal Government. Thus, the Federal Goverment is not forcing any company to accept the vaccine mandate.

However, most employees would likely appreciate it if their company did not eliminate their jobs because they company leadership decided to not accept new, revised, or updated contracts.

There is legally nothing you can sue the goverment for. The Boeing management team has made the decision to accept this new contract clause. Not the Federal Goverment.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:11 pm

ethernal wrote:
planecane wrote:
Stitch wrote:
In terms of vaccination rates, Snohomish County, where Paine Field is located, is just over 59% vaccinated per State and County data. King County, where Boeing Field and Renton are located, is just over 69% vaccinated.


As for prior infection negating the need for vaccination, the Medical Car driver for Formula One has not been vaccinated (by personal choice) and he has contracted COVID-19 twice, so there is direct evidence that having been infected with COVID does not prevent re-infection so also having a vaccination should arguably provide additional protection.


Well, there is plenty of evidence that having been vaccinated against COVID-19 does not prevent infection either so there isn't necessarily a difference.

With regard to the county data, is that percentage of total population or percentage of vaccine eligible. I'd assume the former but you know what happens when you assume.


Vaccination - just like getting COVID - definitely prevents infection. But neither prevent 100%. For both, protection from infection wanes over time. This is why boosters are slowly being rolled out, and also why people with a COVID infection should get vaccinated as well - especially if you were infected a long time ago.


Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated. They could show an antibody test drawn two days ago to Boeing that indicates high levels of antibodies and still won't be exempt from getting vaccinated.

I don't know how quickly boosters are really going to be rolled out for the general public. For Pfizer the recommendation is only for 65+ and high risk. The early word on Moderna is that they might not approve it for anybody at this time.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:36 pm

2175301 wrote:
There is legally nothing you can sue the goverment for. The Boeing management team has made the decision to accept this new contract clause. Not the Federal Goverment.

Not much of a choice for Boeing. All contracts run out at the end of the fiscal year (end of this month). So either abrupt layoffs or sign. The extension contracts, which just might be agreed funding for the next tranche, have this clause.

Boeing could accept the clause or start absolutely massive layoffs cancelling the tanker, P-8, F-15, shut down the satellite division (unviable without government contracts) and be banned from all bids.

Or they accept and push down to the subcontractors too. The fact the mandate came right before government contract renewal gave the companies no time to react.

There wasn't much of a choice... jobs or no jobs.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:20 pm

planecane wrote:
Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated.

No. They have a medical exception to delay 14 days. But if someone had Covid19 2 weeks ago, they have no excuse.

Mandates must be simple and easy to understand. Because of how badly the medical system was overloaded this summer, a decision was made. As of now it is the law.

Only medical staff and the most vulnerable were vaccinated 10 months ago. My relative who is the lead doctor running a coronavirus ward is always telling me about breakthroughs. In the vaccinated staff, sniffles. Breakthroughs are very elderly (over age 90), very heavy (over 400 pounds), cancer patients, kidney patients (she has a full time nephrologist in the ward because of this).

This mandate is admittedly a trick to slow the spread. Vaccines have been shown to be 71% effective stopping transmission:
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... sion-rates

Considering how many weeks our production was delayed and multiply this over every government contractor, perhaps something should be done to improve productivity?

If someone comes in sick, but vaccinated to lets say a team of an even hundred.

If All unvacvinated, you expect 5 to 8 to catch it and quickly spreads to the whole team trashing production (had this happen 4 times last year):
https://www.khou.com/article/news/healt ... 06fab0a37a

If all vaccinated, you expect Rt=Ro(1-% effectiveness to stoo transmit* %vacvinated)*(1-%effectivenes-defense*%vacvinated)

Or using the 71% percentage chance to stop transmission and Pfizer's low (unboosted) 70% effectiveness of defense
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... sion-rates

Low end:
Rt at today's poor vaccination rate of 55% is 1.87 or it will go through the group like a flu, unless people are wearing masks which cut transmission, it might die off (might not considering how few cover the nose).

Ro at UA's now 97% vaccinated is 0.5. Hey, I can handle 2 or 3 people out on my team. I cannot handle whole teams out where half were truly sick.

High end of contagiousness is Rt of 3 and 0.8

I can also handle one at a time getting it and asking people to mask up because they were exposed. It should die out at a 97% vaccination rate after, my math says 8 people.

So while vaccines aren't perfect, if we get between 80% to 92% vaccinated, we stop worrying about this.

From an industrial management perspective, this is cost effective by my analysis unless more than 6% actually quit Manufacturing with great benefits isn't going to be the industry that has high attention. Other industries? Sure, but this us a Boeing (manufacturing) thread.

Lightsaber
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
2175301 wrote:
There is legally nothing you can sue the goverment for. The Boeing management team has made the decision to accept this new contract clause. Not the Federal Goverment.

Not much of a choice for Boeing. All contracts run out at the end of the fiscal year (end of this month). So either abrupt layoffs or sign. The extension contracts, which just might be agreed funding for the next tranche, have this clause.

Boeing could accept the clause or start absolutely massive layoffs cancelling the tanker, P-8, F-15, shut down the satellite division (unviable without government contracts) and be banned from all bids.

Or they accept and push down to the subcontractors too. The fact the mandate came right before government contract renewal gave the companies no time to react.

There wasn't much of a choice... jobs or no jobs.

Lightsaber

FY23 has already started for the US Government: it runs from October 1st to September 30th, and we are October 14th.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
2175301 wrote:
There is legally nothing you can sue the goverment for. The Boeing management team has made the decision to accept this new contract clause. Not the Federal Goverment.

Not much of a choice for Boeing. All contracts run out at the end of the fiscal year (end of this month). So either abrupt layoffs or sign. The extension contracts, which just might be agreed funding for the next tranche, have this clause.

Boeing could accept the clause or start absolutely massive layoffs cancelling the tanker, P-8, F-15, shut down the satellite division (unviable without government contracts) and be banned from all bids.

Or they accept and push down to the subcontractors too. The fact the mandate came right before government contract renewal gave the companies no time to react.

There wasn't much of a choice... jobs or no jobs.

Lightsaber

FY23 has already started for the US Government: it runs from October 1st to September 30th, and we are October 14th.

As I said, the mandate was right before renewal. even if one contract, September 16 is I believe when this was announced (see link) So I remain of the opinion this was slid in late so government contractors couldn't argue against this.

https://www.cleanlink.com/news/article/ ... ees--27631

Lightsaber
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Not much of a choice for Boeing. All contracts run out at the end of the fiscal year (end of this month). So either abrupt layoffs or sign. The extension contracts, which just might be agreed funding for the next tranche, have this clause.

Boeing could accept the clause or start absolutely massive layoffs cancelling the tanker, P-8, F-15, shut down the satellite division (unviable without government contracts) and be banned from all bids.

Or they accept and push down to the subcontractors too. The fact the mandate came right before government contract renewal gave the companies no time to react.

There wasn't much of a choice... jobs or no jobs.

Lightsaber

FY23 has already started for the US Government: it runs from October 1st to September 30th, and we are October 14th.

As I said, the mandate was right before renewal. even if one contract, September 16 is I believe when this was announced (see link) So I remain of the opinion this was slid in late so government contractors couldn't argue against this.

https://www.cleanlink.com/news/article/ ... ees--27631

Lightsaber

I meant to say FY22 of course.
You said the end of the fiscal year was at the end of this month (October); that's not true, it's the end of September.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:48 pm

planecane wrote:

Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated. They could show an antibody test drawn two days ago to Boeing that indicates high levels of antibodies and still won't be exempt from getting vaccinated.


They're not really similar.
Whereas naturally acquired immunity can be potent, its strength is inconsistent and seems to depend on the strength of the infection itself.
The advantage of vaccines is that they give a known minimum level of immunity that is just impossible to guarantee with natural infection.
Antibody levels alone are not enough to measure the efficacy of the immune system.

Since vaccines are just as safe for those who have been previously infected, there is no real downside to requiring formerly Covid-positive people to be vaccinated just like the rest. It provides proof that at least a certain level of immunity has been achieved, which is the whole point of mandating vaccines.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:50 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FY23 has already started for the US Government: it runs from October 1st to September 30th, and we are October 14th.

As I said, the mandate was right before renewal. even if one contract, September 16 is I believe when this was announced (see link) So I remain of the opinion this was slid in late so government contractors couldn't argue against this.

https://www.cleanlink.com/news/article/ ... ees--27631

Lightsaber

I meant to say FY22 of course.
You said the end of the fiscal year was at the end of this month (October); that's not true, it's the end of September.

This was announced early enough for the clause to be put in contracts to be effective now is my point. So yes, FY22.

You do know the fiscal year is much more fluid than the official fiscal year? I've been given authorization to spend next FY in August and been authorized to spend prior fiscal year in December... The books have opening and closing dates that can be negotiated.

What matters is this is going down the contractor/subcontractor chain. Since the rule came out September 16th, it applies currently.

Not hard to comply. E.g., my employer has onsite vaccinations today, all three vaccines.

I am just a believer in following the money so I speculated on the mechanism. If money for FY22 was in danger, companies like Boeing must react. I was rebutting against this being Boeing's decision. Ok, financial suicide was an option, but not really...

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:53 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Since vaccines are just as safe for those who have been previously infected, there is no real downside to requiring formerly Covid-positive people to be vaccinated just like the rest. It provides proof that at least a certain level of immunity has been achieved, which is the whole point of mandating vaccines.

I believe this is correct. By having a certain level of minimum immunity, this allows much more efficient factory management. e.g., instead of sending home everyone who was exposed by sick worker A, you just notify the exposed and send home the unvaccinated who were exposed.

I know enough people personally to believe natural immunity fades in months. So a mandate to keep up contractor productivity.

Lightsaber
 
USAirKid
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
planecane wrote:
Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated.

No. They have a medical exception to delay 14 days. But if someone had Covid19 2 weeks ago, they have no excuse.

Mandates must be simple and easy to understand. Because of how badly the medical system was overloaded this summer, a decision was made. As of now it is the law.

Only medical staff and the most vulnerable were vaccinated 10 months ago. My relative who is the lead doctor running a coronavirus ward is always telling me about breakthroughs. In the vaccinated staff, sniffles. Breakthroughs are very elderly (over age 90), very heavy (over 400 pounds), cancer patients, kidney patients (she has a full time nephrologist in the ward because of this).

This mandate is admittedly a trick to slow the spread. Vaccines have been shown to be 71% effective stopping transmission:
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... sion-rates

Considering how many weeks our production was delayed and multiply this over every government contractor, perhaps something should be done to improve productivity?

If someone comes in sick, but vaccinated to lets say a team of an even hundred.

If All unvacvinated, you expect 5 to 8 to catch it and quickly spreads to the whole team trashing production (had this happen 4 times last year):
https://www.khou.com/article/news/healt ... 06fab0a37a

If all vaccinated, you expect Rt=Ro(1-% effectiveness to stoo transmit* %vacvinated)*(1-%effectivenes-defense*%vacvinated)

Or using the 71% percentage chance to stop transmission and Pfizer's low (unboosted) 70% effectiveness of defense
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... sion-rates

Low end:
Rt at today's poor vaccination rate of 55% is 1.87 or it will go through the group like a flu, unless people are wearing masks which cut transmission, it might die off (might not considering how few cover the nose).

Ro at UA's now 97% vaccinated is 0.5. Hey, I can handle 2 or 3 people out on my team. I cannot handle whole teams out where half were truly sick.

High end of contagiousness is Rt of 3 and 0.8

I can also handle one at a time getting it and asking people to mask up because they were exposed. It should die out at a 97% vaccination rate after, my math says 8 people.

So while vaccines aren't perfect, if we get between 80% to 92% vaccinated, we stop worrying about this.

From an industrial management perspective, this is cost effective by my analysis unless more than 6% actually quit Manufacturing with great benefits isn't going to be the industry that has high attention. Other industries? Sure, but this us a Boeing (manufacturing) thread.

Lightsaber



Thank you for breaking this down and making it clear that there is a pretty airtight business case for requiring vaccines. That means if (sigh, when.) it gets challenged in court, it should hold up.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:23 am

Francoflier wrote:
planecane wrote:

Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated. They could show an antibody test drawn two days ago to Boeing that indicates high levels of antibodies and still won't be exempt from getting vaccinated.


They're not really similar.
Whereas naturally acquired immunity can be potent, its strength is inconsistent and seems to depend on the strength of the infection itself.
The advantage of vaccines is that they give a known minimum level of immunity that is just impossible to guarantee with natural infection.
Antibody levels alone are not enough to measure the efficacy of the immune system.

Since vaccines are just as safe for those who have been previously infected, there is no real downside to requiring formerly Covid-positive people to be vaccinated just like the rest. It provides proof that at least a certain level of immunity has been achieved, which is the whole point of mandating vaccines.


J&J is acceptable under the Boeing requirement. J&J's effectiveness against infection even vs. the original variant and before any waning was not nearly as high as the mRNA vaccines. A very strong case can be made that natural immunity, on average, is stronger against infection than the J&J vaccine.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:26 am

USAirKid wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
planecane wrote:
Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated.

No. They have a medical exception to delay 14 days. But if someone had Covid19 2 weeks ago, they have no excuse.

Mandates must be simple and easy to understand. Because of how badly the medical system was overloaded this summer, a decision was made. As of now it is the law.

Only medical staff and the most vulnerable were vaccinated 10 months ago. My relative who is the lead doctor running a coronavirus ward is always telling me about breakthroughs. In the vaccinated staff, sniffles. Breakthroughs are very elderly (over age 90), very heavy (over 400 pounds), cancer patients, kidney patients (she has a full time nephrologist in the ward because of this).

This mandate is admittedly a trick to slow the spread. Vaccines have been shown to be 71% effective stopping transmission:
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... sion-rates

Considering how many weeks our production was delayed and multiply this over every government contractor, perhaps something should be done to improve productivity?

If someone comes in sick, but vaccinated to lets say a team of an even hundred.

If All unvacvinated, you expect 5 to 8 to catch it and quickly spreads to the whole team trashing production (had this happen 4 times last year):
https://www.khou.com/article/news/healt ... 06fab0a37a

If all vaccinated, you expect Rt=Ro(1-% effectiveness to stoo transmit* %vacvinated)*(1-%effectivenes-defense*%vacvinated)

Or using the 71% percentage chance to stop transmission and Pfizer's low (unboosted) 70% effectiveness of defense
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... sion-rates

Low end:
Rt at today's poor vaccination rate of 55% is 1.87 or it will go through the group like a flu, unless people are wearing masks which cut transmission, it might die off (might not considering how few cover the nose).

Ro at UA's now 97% vaccinated is 0.5. Hey, I can handle 2 or 3 people out on my team. I cannot handle whole teams out where half were truly sick.

High end of contagiousness is Rt of 3 and 0.8

I can also handle one at a time getting it and asking people to mask up because they were exposed. It should die out at a 97% vaccination rate after, my math says 8 people.

So while vaccines aren't perfect, if we get between 80% to 92% vaccinated, we stop worrying about this.

From an industrial management perspective, this is cost effective by my analysis unless more than 6% actually quit Manufacturing with great benefits isn't going to be the industry that has high attention. Other industries? Sure, but this us a Boeing (manufacturing) thread.

Lightsaber



Thank you for breaking this down and making it clear that there is a pretty airtight business case for requiring vaccines. That means if (sigh, when.) it gets challenged in court, it should hold up.


There's nothing really to challenge in court. It doesn't matter if there is a business case or not. It is established that requiring a vaccine as a condition of employment is perfectly legal. This is the reason the administration went about the mandates the way they did. The strongest legal challenge would be that in a unionized workplace like Boeing, the requirement needs to be part of collective bargaining and can't just be imposed. For the South Carolina workers, it can be imposed since they aren't unionized.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:44 pm

planecane wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
planecane wrote:

Right, they are similar to each other. The only difference being timing. Under these policies, somebody is OK if they were vaccinated 10 months ago but will be fired if they had COVID two weeks ago and didn't get vaccinated. They could show an antibody test drawn two days ago to Boeing that indicates high levels of antibodies and still won't be exempt from getting vaccinated.


They're not really similar.
Whereas naturally acquired immunity can be potent, its strength is inconsistent and seems to depend on the strength of the infection itself.
The advantage of vaccines is that they give a known minimum level of immunity that is just impossible to guarantee with natural infection.
Antibody levels alone are not enough to measure the efficacy of the immune system.

Since vaccines are just as safe for those who have been previously infected, there is no real downside to requiring formerly Covid-positive people to be vaccinated just like the rest. It provides proof that at least a certain level of immunity has been achieved, which is the whole point of mandating vaccines.


J&J is acceptable under the Boeing requirement. J&J's effectiveness against infection even vs. the original variant and before any waning was not nearly as high as the mRNA vaccines. A very strong case can be made that natural immunity, on average, is stronger against infection than the J&J vaccine.


I'd love to see some data on this hypothesis...

Regardless, whereas I'm sure that in some cases, natural immunity can be better than that provided by some vaccines, there is simply no way of guaranteeing it by any other mean than expensive lab testing.
The point of requiring vaccines is that they give a demonstrable and almost guaranteed level of immunity, which is not the case for actual infection.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:46 pm

Francoflier wrote:
planecane wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

They're not really similar.
Whereas naturally acquired immunity can be potent, its strength is inconsistent and seems to depend on the strength of the infection itself.
The advantage of vaccines is that they give a known minimum level of immunity that is just impossible to guarantee with natural infection.
Antibody levels alone are not enough to measure the efficacy of the immune system.

Since vaccines are just as safe for those who have been previously infected, there is no real downside to requiring formerly Covid-positive people to be vaccinated just like the rest. It provides proof that at least a certain level of immunity has been achieved, which is the whole point of mandating vaccines.


J&J is acceptable under the Boeing requirement. J&J's effectiveness against infection even vs. the original variant and before any waning was not nearly as high as the mRNA vaccines. A very strong case can be made that natural immunity, on average, is stronger against infection than the J&J vaccine.


I'd love to see some data on this hypothesis...

Regardless, whereas I'm sure that in some cases, natural immunity can be better than that provided by some vaccines, there is simply no way of guaranteeing it by any other mean than expensive lab testing.
The point of requiring vaccines is that they give a demonstrable and almost guaranteed level of immunity, which is not the case for actual infection.

I’d also rather get that level of immunity by a relatively controlled vaccine with minimal side effects than rolling the dice and hoping I have smooth Covid infection while unvaccinated.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:32 pm

planecane wrote:
There's nothing really to challenge in court. It doesn't matter if there is a business case or not. It is established that requiring a vaccine as a condition of employment is perfectly legal. This is the reason the administration went about the mandates the way they did. The strongest legal challenge would be that in a unionized workplace like Boeing, the requirement needs to be part of collective bargaining and can't just be imposed. For the South Carolina workers, it can be imposed since they aren't unionized.


I highly doubt that the Union contracts have an existing clause that says the employer cannot implement a vaccine requirement for public health purposes, without negotiation.

I've been both an employee and a manager under Union Contracts. As a Manager (Power Plant Superintendent) there were several things I implemented without any issues because they were not addressed within the Contract. This does not mean that I did not notify the Union up front (The Union Steward and I talked routinely about things - and I had a really great relationship with him).

Even if such a clause exists... It would almost certainly be moot as federal laws and regulations over-ride contract terms.

Have a great day,
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:06 am

2175301 wrote:
planecane wrote:
There's nothing really to challenge in court. It doesn't matter if there is a business case or not. It is established that requiring a vaccine as a condition of employment is perfectly legal. This is the reason the administration went about the mandates the way they did. The strongest legal challenge would be that in a unionized workplace like Boeing, the requirement needs to be part of collective bargaining and can't just be imposed. For the South Carolina workers, it can be imposed since they aren't unionized.


I highly doubt that the Union contracts have an existing clause that says the employer cannot implement a vaccine requirement for public health purposes, without negotiation.

I've been both an employee and a manager under Union Contracts. As a Manager (Power Plant Superintendent) there were several things I implemented without any issues because they were not addressed within the Contract. This does not mean that I did not notify the Union up front (The Union Steward and I talked routinely about things - and I had a really great relationship with him).

Even if such a clause exists... It would almost certainly be moot as federal laws and regulations over-ride contract terms.

Have a great day,


Yep, hit the nail on the head here.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:41 pm

2175301 wrote:
planecane wrote:
There's nothing really to challenge in court. It doesn't matter if there is a business case or not. It is established that requiring a vaccine as a condition of employment is perfectly legal. This is the reason the administration went about the mandates the way they did. The strongest legal challenge would be that in a unionized workplace like Boeing, the requirement needs to be part of collective bargaining and can't just be imposed. For the South Carolina workers, it can be imposed since they aren't unionized.


I highly doubt that the Union contracts have an existing clause that says the employer cannot implement a vaccine requirement for public health purposes, without negotiation.

I've been both an employee and a manager under Union Contracts. As a Manager (Power Plant Superintendent) there were several things I implemented without any issues because they were not addressed within the Contract. This does not mean that I did not notify the Union up front (The Union Steward and I talked routinely about things - and I had a really great relationship with him).

Even if such a clause exists... It would almost certainly be moot as federal laws and regulations over-ride contract terms.

Have a great day,

I don't see how a union contract wouldn't protect against the terms of employment changing without negotiation and amendment. It also isn't a federal law. When the OSHA rule is made official, it contains a testing instead of vaccination option. Even the OSHA rule is debatable whether it is or isn't a law. The subcontractor requirement to require all employees be vaccinated is definitely not a federal law.

The Boeing unions may not want to fight it, especially if the leadership is inclined to agree with the requirement but if they wanted to fight it, I'm sure they'd have a strong case. It is probably a very small percentage of the membership that is dead set against being vaccinated so they wouldn't be inclined to represent that small percentage with large legal fees.
 
N757ST
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:28 pm

planecane wrote:
2175301 wrote:
planecane wrote:
There's nothing really to challenge in court. It doesn't matter if there is a business case or not. It is established that requiring a vaccine as a condition of employment is perfectly legal. This is the reason the administration went about the mandates the way they did. The strongest legal challenge would be that in a unionized workplace like Boeing, the requirement needs to be part of collective bargaining and can't just be imposed. For the South Carolina workers, it can be imposed since they aren't unionized.


I highly doubt that the Union contracts have an existing clause that says the employer cannot implement a vaccine requirement for public health purposes, without negotiation.

I've been both an employee and a manager under Union Contracts. As a Manager (Power Plant Superintendent) there were several things I implemented without any issues because they were not addressed within the Contract. This does not mean that I did not notify the Union up front (The Union Steward and I talked routinely about things - and I had a really great relationship with him).

Even if such a clause exists... It would almost certainly be moot as federal laws and regulations over-ride contract terms.

Have a great day,

I don't see how a union contract wouldn't protect against the terms of employment changing without negotiation and amendment. It also isn't a federal law. When the OSHA rule is made official, it contains a testing instead of vaccination option. Even the OSHA rule is debatable whether it is or isn't a law. The subcontractor requirement to require all employees be vaccinated is definitely not a federal law.

The Boeing unions may not want to fight it, especially if the leadership is inclined to agree with the requirement but if they wanted to fight it, I'm sure they'd have a strong case. It is probably a very small percentage of the membership that is dead set against being vaccinated so they wouldn't be inclined to represent that small percentage with large legal fees.



Executive orders have the rule of law. Since they are federal in nature they also override conflicting state laws or EO’s.

I personally think EO’s shouldn’t be a thing from either political parties, but they very much have the rule of law.

The airlines aren’t being influenced by the 100 employee rule, but rather the federal contractor rule, and that rule does not provide a testing op out.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:33 pm

planecane wrote:
2175301 wrote:
planecane wrote:
There's nothing really to challenge in court. It doesn't matter if there is a business case or not. It is established that requiring a vaccine as a condition of employment is perfectly legal. This is the reason the administration went about the mandates the way they did. The strongest legal challenge would be that in a unionized workplace like Boeing, the requirement needs to be part of collective bargaining and can't just be imposed. For the South Carolina workers, it can be imposed since they aren't unionized.


I highly doubt that the Union contracts have an existing clause that says the employer cannot implement a vaccine requirement for public health purposes, without negotiation.

I've been both an employee and a manager under Union Contracts. As a Manager (Power Plant Superintendent) there were several things I implemented without any issues because they were not addressed within the Contract. This does not mean that I did not notify the Union up front (The Union Steward and I talked routinely about things - and I had a really great relationship with him).

Even if such a clause exists... It would almost certainly be moot as federal laws and regulations over-ride contract terms.

Have a great day,

I don't see how a union contract wouldn't protect against the terms of employment changing without negotiation and amendment. It also isn't a federal law.


These vaccine requirements on federal contractors are being mandated by executive orders signed by Biden. While executive orders are not federal laws they have the same force of a law and unless successfully challenged and overturned (or suspended pending outcome of a challenge) you must follow them as if they are an actual legislative law.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:19 pm

N757ST wrote:


Executive orders have the rule of law. Since they are federal in nature they also override conflicting state laws or EO’s.

I personally think EO’s shouldn’t be a thing from either political parties, but they very much have the rule of law.

The airlines aren’t being influenced by the 100 employee rule, but rather the federal contractor rule, and that rule does not provide a testing op out.


Polot wrote:

These vaccine requirements on federal contractors are being mandated by executive orders signed by Biden. While executive orders are not federal laws they have the same force of a law and unless successfully challenged and overturned (or suspended pending outcome of a challenge) you must follow them as if they are an actual legislative law.


What Presidents (or Governors) attempt with Executive Orders notwithstanding, they aren't legally allowed to create laws or rules with them. They are only supposed to direct resources and powers that have been granted by law already to the executive branch.

If an executive order said all employees of government contractors had to shave their head, it doesn't become a law to do so. Now, in order to not follow an executive order, the aggrieved party must challenge the legality of the order in court. However, if the legal standing doesn't exist for the particular order, it will likely be invalidated by a court.

If the contractors (in this case Boeing) don't wish to challenge the EO, there is no standing for an employee to do so. There is no law that prevents an employer from making it a requirement, EO or not. An employee that doesn't have an employment contract (either individual or collectively bargained) has no standing at all to challenge an employer requirement.

I personally would be supportive of putting in place a policy which doesn't provide PTO for unvaccinated employees who miss time due to COVID and I also support charging unvaccinated people more for health insurance because it is more likely that they will get sick with COVID and cost the plan tens of thousands of dollars. I strongly believe there should be a testing option as an opt out to any mandated COVID vaccine, even if it's a daily test and the employee has to pay for it. An unvaccinated employee who is tested every morning is far less likely to spread COVID to coworkers than a vaccinated employee who is never tested.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:37 pm

planecane wrote:
N757ST wrote:


Executive orders have the rule of law. Since they are federal in nature they also override conflicting state laws or EO’s.

I personally think EO’s shouldn’t be a thing from either political parties, but they very much have the rule of law.

The airlines aren’t being influenced by the 100 employee rule, but rather the federal contractor rule, and that rule does not provide a testing op out.


Polot wrote:

These vaccine requirements on federal contractors are being mandated by executive orders signed by Biden. While executive orders are not federal laws they have the same force of a law and unless successfully challenged and overturned (or suspended pending outcome of a challenge) you must follow them as if they are an actual legislative law.


What Presidents (or Governors) attempt with Executive Orders notwithstanding, they aren't legally allowed to create laws or rules with them. They are only supposed to direct resources and powers that have been granted by law already to the executive branch.

If an executive order said all employees of government contractors had to shave their head, it doesn't become a law to do so. Now, in order to not follow an executive order, the aggrieved party must challenge the legality of the order in court. However, if the legal standing doesn't exist for the particular order, it will likely be invalidated by a court.

If the contractors (in this case Boeing) don't wish to challenge the EO, there is no standing for an employee to do so. There is no law that prevents an employer from making it a requirement, EO or not. An employee that doesn't have an employment contract (either individual or collectively bargained) has no standing at all to challenge an employer requirement.

I personally would be supportive of putting in place a policy which doesn't provide PTO for unvaccinated employees who miss time due to COVID and I also support charging unvaccinated people more for health insurance because it is more likely that they will get sick with COVID and cost the plan tens of thousands of dollars. I strongly believe there should be a testing option as an opt out to any mandated COVID vaccine, even if it's a daily test and the employee has to pay for it. An unvaccinated employee who is tested every morning is far less likely to spread COVID to coworkers than a vaccinated employee who is never tested.



Please read Executive Order 14042: COVID Safety Protocols for Federal Contractors (title summarized)

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... ontractors

Then go read the laws cited as giving the authority to issue this specific Executive Order.

Properly issued Executive Orders have the force of Law because they are in fact based on laws that exist. I do not believe your hypothetical example would not find any legal support for its case, and should someone be so stupid to issue it would in fact be quickly shot down in court because of that.

Note also, President Biden did not direct any federal contractors to get vaccinated. He asked in interdepartmental Federal Government to develop and issue standards. He then asked the The Federal Acquisition Regulatory Council to within the extent permitted by law to update Federal Acquisition Regulations.

I think you will find that all legal basis have been covered here.... There is over 100 years of laws and court rulings establishing that the goverment and employers can implement vaccine mandates, even if they violate other personal rights - as public health and safety trumps to some degree personal rights.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:32 pm

LNCS0930 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
125,000 employees

“Employees who are unable to meet these requirements ... may be released from the company.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/boein ... uxbndlbing

Ouch. This is abrupt as the Federal requirements are brutal:

https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/contractors/

This applies to subcontractors.

There is no wiggling out for Boeing.
First Moderna must be by October 27th if my math is right, Pfizer by Nov 3rd.

No wonder my employer, a competitor to Boeing, insisted everyone have the 1st jab in October. I personally think J&J will be rare in November.

Lightsaber


I think many people will end up on unpaid leave for a time as they wait. If a person is showing good faith I don’t think you can terminate them if they prefer one vaccine over another so likely if a person says I will get vaccinated the option is unpaid administrative leave until that happens


Vaccines have been available for 10 months. If you're not vaccinated and won't do it right now when required, then it's not about the kind of vaccine...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
125,000 employees

“Employees who are unable to meet these requirements ... may be released from the company.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/boein ... uxbndlbing

Ouch. This is abrupt as the Federal requirements are brutal:

https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/contractors/

This applies to subcontractors.

There is no wiggling out for Boeing.
First Moderna must be by October 27th if my math is right, Pfizer by Nov 3rd.

No wonder my employer, a competitor to Boeing, insisted everyone have the 1st jab in October. I personally think J&J will be rare in November.

Lightsaber


I think many people will end up on unpaid leave for a time as they wait. If a person is showing good faith I don’t think you can terminate them if they prefer one vaccine over another so likely if a person says I will get vaccinated the option is unpaid administrative leave until that happens


Vaccines have been available for 10 months. If you're not vaccinated and won't do it right now when required, then it's not about the kind of vaccine...


That's basically the discussion amongst a lot of HR departments now. Among those who aren't getting the jab, there's always a new excuse.
 
Prost
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:48 am

I think if people are willing to put their career on the line over the legal advice they’ve gotten on the internet they will be surprised. I wish them well in their future endeavors.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:08 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
LNCS0930 wrote:

I think many people will end up on unpaid leave for a time as they wait. If a person is showing good faith I don’t think you can terminate them if they prefer one vaccine over another so likely if a person says I will get vaccinated the option is unpaid administrative leave until that happens


Vaccines have been available for 10 months. If you're not vaccinated and won't do it right now when required, then it's not about the kind of vaccine...


That's basically the discussion amongst a lot of HR departments now. Among those who aren't getting the jab, there's always a new excuse.


A question I personally have been pondering that came up today: If someone is so gullible to fall for the misinformation and the disinformation out there on the Covid Vaccine and the so called existence of "absolute rights".... Then are they really the kind of employee or member that a company or group needs?

In my personal opinion I'm starting to come down on the side that I'm not sure that these people can be depended on to be critical thinkers on other important matters (Quality, Safety, Society, etc.). Perhaps another 10,000+ unemployed people in America would actually improve overall productivity.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:10 am

2175301 wrote:
Before people start posting about their "Rights" in the USA. There are no absolute rights; and the classic case is that you cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded theater or public space. P

Sick and tired of COVID19 related debates, but I am more sick and tired of people using this quote to death. The phrase "you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater" comes directly from a supreme court ruling that allowed the United States to imprison anti war protesters under the espionage act during WW1. I am not sure anyone would use the phrase if they knew the context.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... te/264449/
 
Babyshark
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:10 am

Aaron747 wrote:

That's basically the discussion amongst a lot of HR departments now. Among those who aren't getting the jab, there's always a new excuse.


Among those demanding others get the jab or else there’s always a new excuse why the jab doesn’t stop you from getting or spreading the virus.
 
Chemist
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:12 am

Blood clots are much more common from COVID than from any vaccine. Like over a 100x more common.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:32 pm

I posted upthread how vaccines reduce transmission 71%. Not perfect, but not zero. The same link noted Pfizer is 70% effective.

This isn't about any one individual. It is to safely keep a factory up and running. When a high fraction of vaccinated, you don't have to react to a single case. That removes that inefficiency.

Israel is majority vaccinated, yet 76% of the serious cases are unvaccinated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/315170

Unfortunately, this virus is so transmittable we need some where between 80% to 92% fully vaccinated (I did a long post upthread to get to those numbers).

Aerospace cannot sustain on last year's productivity.

As others already noted, the side effects of the virus are worse by huge factors. If people have a real health issue, there is a process for waivers. Those people should be glad their coworkers must be vaccinated. For those with a religious objection, apply.

Lightsaber
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This isn't about any one individual. It is to safely keep a factory up and running. When a high fraction of vaccinated, you don't have to react to a single case. That removes that inefficiency.


This, right here, is the whole enchilada. One individual’s concerns are irrelevant when the organization is using a risk management perspective. Operations and personnel administration are simply too chaotic without this peace of mind.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:05 am

2175301 wrote:
A question I personally have been pondering that came up today: If someone is so gullible to fall for the misinformation and the disinformation out there on the Covid Vaccine and the so called existence of "absolute rights".... Then are they really the kind of employee or member that a company or group needs?

In my personal opinion I'm starting to come down on the side that I'm not sure that these people can be depended on to be critical thinkers on other important matters (Quality, Safety, Society, etc.). Perhaps another 10,000+ unemployed people in America would actually improve overall productivity.


I think I'm seeing this play out at my company right now. There is no company mandate to vaccinate (and no law allowing it), and we don't need it to work at the office (masks are still mandatory, though), however some places require either to be vaccinated or to be recently tested negative to enter. And sometimes we need to go to these places for our work. Since 2 days ago antigenic/PCR tests are no longer free, unless you have symptoms or have been traced back to someone positive, so now a colleague of mine who has to do something in a restricted place is asking for her test to be paid by the company, since she won't vaccinate. Answer is no.

The place in question is owned by the richest man in the world, so quite a significant client for us, we'll see how it plays out.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I posted upthread how vaccines reduce transmission 71%. Not perfect, but not zero. The same link noted Pfizer is 70% effective.

This isn't about any one individual. It is to safely keep a factory up and running. When a high fraction of vaccinated, you don't have to react to a single case. That removes that inefficiency.

Israel is majority vaccinated, yet 76% of the serious cases are unvaccinated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/315170

Unfortunately, this virus is so transmittable we need some where between 80% to 92% fully vaccinated (I did a long post upthread to get to those numbers).

Aerospace cannot sustain on last year's productivity.

As others already noted, the side effects of the virus are worse by huge factors. If people have a real health issue, there is a process for waivers. Those people should be glad their coworkers must be vaccinated. For those with a religious objection, apply.

Lightsaber


Why not offer a test every morning (employee paid) as an alternative? If negative, very close to 100% that the person can not transmit COVID to anybody else that day. There will be rare cases where infection develops between the test and the end of the day but will still be "safer" than the 70% provided by the vaccines.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:52 pm

planecane wrote:
Why not offer a test every morning (employee paid) as an alternative?


Medically, that's probably a viable idea. Employees won't want to pay for it. They won't be satisified being sent home on unpaid quarantine leave for false positives, either.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:32 pm

planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I posted upthread how vaccines reduce transmission 71%. Not perfect, but not zero. The same link noted Pfizer is 70% effective.

This isn't about any one individual. It is to safely keep a factory up and running. When a high fraction of vaccinated, you don't have to react to a single case. That removes that inefficiency.

Israel is majority vaccinated, yet 76% of the serious cases are unvaccinated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/315170

Unfortunately, this virus is so transmittable we need some where between 80% to 92% fully vaccinated (I did a long post upthread to get to those numbers).

Aerospace cannot sustain on last year's productivity.

As others already noted, the side effects of the virus are worse by huge factors. If people have a real health issue, there is a process for waivers. Those people should be glad their coworkers must be vaccinated. For those with a religious objection, apply.

Lightsaber


Why not offer a test every morning (employee paid) as an alternative? If negative, very close to 100% that the person can not transmit COVID to anybody else that day. There will be rare cases where infection develops between the test and the end of the day but will still be "safer" than the 70% provided by the vaccines.


In a small organization - less than 50 people, that's more than doable. In a large organization, that's a nightmare to administer. HR people have a lot of analytics and reporting they're supposed to be doing, not chasing people down to remember their test and/or dealing with various results.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:50 pm

planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I posted upthread how vaccines reduce transmission 71%. Not perfect, but not zero. The same link noted Pfizer is 70% effective.

This isn't about any one individual. It is to safely keep a factory up and running. When a high fraction of vaccinated, you don't have to react to a single case. That removes that inefficiency.

Israel is majority vaccinated, yet 76% of the serious cases are unvaccinated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/315170

Unfortunately, this virus is so transmittable we need some where between 80% to 92% fully vaccinated (I did a long post upthread to get to those numbers).

Aerospace cannot sustain on last year's productivity.

As others already noted, the side effects of the virus are worse by huge factors. If people have a real health issue, there is a process for waivers. Those people should be glad their coworkers must be vaccinated. For those with a religious objection, apply.

Lightsaber


Why not offer a test every morning (employee paid) as an alternative? If negative, very close to 100% that the person can not transmit COVID to anybody else that day. There will be rare cases where infection develops between the test and the end of the day but will still be "safer" than the 70% provided by the vaccines.

That is much more work for management. Are you asking for people like me to come in a half hour earlier to verify daily? No. Just no

If everyone is vaccinated, my risk of having an employee out is 9% of the risk of a largely unvaccinated workforce. (.29*.3=0.087, see link above). When you start multiplying that across a large team then take into account parents who bring it home and must care for elderly or children...

Please look at how highly vaccinated areas, in particular recent vaccinations reduce transmission:
https://time.com/6107886/japan-covid-19-case-drop/

My math says we need 80% to 92% vaccinated to get out of this. I talked with a friend yesterday trying to get him to vaccinate. If he refused, he is locked out of an industry.

Eight days until the last vaccine start of Moderna. My employer moved up proof of vaccination, 1st jab to the 29th of this month (October) or apply for exemption via a web page. Termination process starts Nov 1st, so Boeing is playing nice.

I couldn't imagine managing what you propose at the scale of Boeing.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:17 pm

In addition, I've found employees from companies with vaccine mandates unwilling to travel to our site as we do not yet have in effect a mandate. Apparently 51% of people feel that way:
https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1030877898

I'd imagine Boeing has the same issues we do. Older consultants are refusing to come in as without a mandate, the extra pay to live better isn't worth the risk. We have one vendor who only had 3 engineers willing to come on site, but we had no trouble getting volunteers to visit their vaccine required site where two of our employees were shocked to find out no exceptions, all visitors must be vaccinated. We had to release a skilled engineer (to another program) as we couldn't use him if not allowed on the vendor's site.

As a Federal contractor, as of December 8th all visitors must be fully vaccinated. I haven't seen any exceptions. I know we sell a lot to Boeing, I cannot imagine they'll find someone useful who cannot travel to vendors.

Lightsaber
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
In addition, I've found employees from companies with vaccine mandates unwilling to travel to our site as we do not yet have in effect a mandate. Apparently 51% of people feel that way:
https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1030877898

I'd imagine Boeing has the same issues we do. Older consultants are refusing to come in as without a mandate, the extra pay to live better isn't worth the risk. We have one vendor who only had 3 engineers willing to come on site, but we had no trouble getting volunteers to visit their vaccine required site where two of our employees were shocked to find out no exceptions, all visitors must be vaccinated. We had to release a skilled engineer (to another program) as we couldn't use him if not allowed on the vendor's site.

As a Federal contractor, as of December 8th all visitors must be fully vaccinated. I haven't seen any exceptions. I know we sell a lot to Boeing, I cannot imagine they'll find someone useful who cannot travel to vendors.

Lightsaber

I understand a company can mandate its employees to be vaccinated; but to mandate visitors to be? That's surprising since visitors, by definition, do not work for that company... But I guess big boys like Boeing can impose whatever they want to their suppliers.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
In addition, I've found employees from companies with vaccine mandates unwilling to travel to our site as we do not yet have in effect a mandate. Apparently 51% of people feel that way:
https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1030877898

I'd imagine Boeing has the same issues we do. Older consultants are refusing to come in as without a mandate, the extra pay to live better isn't worth the risk. We have one vendor who only had 3 engineers willing to come on site, but we had no trouble getting volunteers to visit their vaccine required site where two of our employees were shocked to find out no exceptions, all visitors must be vaccinated. We had to release a skilled engineer (to another program) as we couldn't use him if not allowed on the vendor's site.

As a Federal contractor, as of December 8th all visitors must be fully vaccinated. I haven't seen any exceptions. I know we sell a lot to Boeing, I cannot imagine they'll find someone useful who cannot travel to vendors.

Lightsaber

I understand a company can mandate its employees to be vaccinated; but to mandate visitors to be? That's surprising since visitors, by definition, do not work for that company... But I guess big boys like Boeing can impose whatever they want to their suppliers.

It’s legally easier to mandate things on visitors than on employees…

It’s Boeing’s, not public, property. They have the right to determine who is allowed on their property as long as it is nondiscriminatory towards protected classes, and guests have little legal recourse to fight it. This is true no matter the company. For example at my place of work all visitors must be US citizens.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I posted upthread how vaccines reduce transmission 71%. Not perfect, but not zero. The same link noted Pfizer is 70% effective.

This isn't about any one individual. It is to safely keep a factory up and running. When a high fraction of vaccinated, you don't have to react to a single case. That removes that inefficiency.

Israel is majority vaccinated, yet 76% of the serious cases are unvaccinated.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/315170

Unfortunately, this virus is so transmittable we need some where between 80% to 92% fully vaccinated (I did a long post upthread to get to those numbers).

Aerospace cannot sustain on last year's productivity.

As others already noted, the side effects of the virus are worse by huge factors. If people have a real health issue, there is a process for waivers. Those people should be glad their coworkers must be vaccinated. For those with a religious objection, apply.

Lightsaber


Why not offer a test every morning (employee paid) as an alternative? If negative, very close to 100% that the person can not transmit COVID to anybody else that day. There will be rare cases where infection develops between the test and the end of the day but will still be "safer" than the 70% provided by the vaccines.

That is much more work for management. Are you asking for people like me to come in a half hour earlier to verify daily? No. Just no

If everyone is vaccinated, my risk of having an employee out is 9% of the risk of a largely unvaccinated workforce. (.29*.3=0.087, see link above). When you start multiplying that across a large team then take into account parents who bring it home and must care for elderly or children...

Please look at how highly vaccinated areas, in particular recent vaccinations reduce transmission:
https://time.com/6107886/japan-covid-19-case-drop/

My math says we need 80% to 92% vaccinated to get out of this. I talked with a friend yesterday trying to get him to vaccinate. If he refused, he is locked out of an industry.

Eight days until the last vaccine start of Moderna. My employer moved up proof of vaccination, 1st jab to the 29th of this month (October) or apply for exemption via a web page. Termination process starts Nov 1st, so Boeing is playing nice.

I couldn't imagine managing what you propose at the scale of Boeing.

Lightsaber


We're only talking about a small percentage of the total employees. Making employees pay for the daily testing would encourage all by the most hard line to get vaccinated instead. However, it would give a good employee who has decided that they won't take the COVID vaccine no matter what an option to keep their job, while being as safe or safer to everybody else as if they had been vaccinated.

It would never work if only a handful of employees were vaccinated but it can be done if it is only a handful who aren't.

Does your math take into account the waning effectiveness against infection that has been seen in the UK and Israel? Given how contagious the Delta variant is, I don't think 100% worldwide vaccination would completely eliminate COVID. We'd end up with a lot fewer severely ill and dead people but I think this virus is here to stay for eternity.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:12 pm

Polot wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
In addition, I've found employees from companies with vaccine mandates unwilling to travel to our site as we do not yet have in effect a mandate. Apparently 51% of people feel that way:
https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1030877898

I'd imagine Boeing has the same issues we do. Older consultants are refusing to come in as without a mandate, the extra pay to live better isn't worth the risk. We have one vendor who only had 3 engineers willing to come on site, but we had no trouble getting volunteers to visit their vaccine required site where two of our employees were shocked to find out no exceptions, all visitors must be vaccinated. We had to release a skilled engineer (to another program) as we couldn't use him if not allowed on the vendor's site.

As a Federal contractor, as of December 8th all visitors must be fully vaccinated. I haven't seen any exceptions. I know we sell a lot to Boeing, I cannot imagine they'll find someone useful who cannot travel to vendors.

Lightsaber

I understand a company can mandate its employees to be vaccinated; but to mandate visitors to be? That's surprising since visitors, by definition, do not work for that company... But I guess big boys like Boeing can impose whatever they want to their suppliers.

It’s legally easier to mandate things on visitors than on employees…

It’s Boeing’s, not public, property. They have the right to determine who is allowed on their property as long as it is nondiscriminatory towards protected classes, and guests have little legal recourse to fight it. This is true no matter the company. For example at my place of work all visitors must be US citizens.

Of course a private company can do whatever they want; but small companies will have a harder time imposing some constraints on visitors than the bigger ones.
As far as your company allowing only US citizens, it's most likely due to classified government work; and even then, it's most of the time limited to US persons and not US citizens.

Remember: as a company, if you limit who can visit your facilities, you are limiting your pool of vendors and/or customers, hence potentially putting you as a disadvantage versus your competitors. But then again, for a company like Boeing, vendors will bend over backwards while flipping off a small mom-and-pop shop.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12383
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:18 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
I understand a company can mandate its employees to be vaccinated; but to mandate visitors to be? That's surprising since visitors, by definition, do not work for that company... But I guess big boys like Boeing can impose whatever they want to their suppliers.

It’s legally easier to mandate things on visitors than on employees…

It’s Boeing’s, not public, property. They have the right to determine who is allowed on their property as long as it is nondiscriminatory towards protected classes, and guests have little legal recourse to fight it. This is true no matter the company. For example at my place of work all visitors must be US citizens.

Of course a private company can do whatever they want; but small companies will have a harder time imposing some constraints on visitors than the bigger ones.
As far as your company allowing only US citizens, it's most likely due to classified government work; and even then, it's most of the time limited to US persons and not US citizens.

Remember: as a company, if you limit who can visit your facilities, you are limiting your pool of vendors and/or customers, hence potentially putting you as a disadvantage versus your competitors. But then again, for a company like Boeing, vendors will bend over backwards while flipping off a small mom-and-pop shop.

Of course. When you limit visitors you potentially limit possible business. But you seemed shocked that Boeing has the ability to require visitors to be vaccinated.

My company required visitors to be vaccinated or, if not, quarantined for 2 weeks after traveling prior to coming on site. Which effectively made non-vaccinated visitors impractical because no company is paying to have someone quarantine for 2 weeks for a short visit. At the end of November all visitors must be vaccinated along with the employees.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2553
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:39 pm

Polot wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s legally easier to mandate things on visitors than on employees…

It’s Boeing’s, not public, property. They have the right to determine who is allowed on their property as long as it is nondiscriminatory towards protected classes, and guests have little legal recourse to fight it. This is true no matter the company. For example at my place of work all visitors must be US citizens.

Of course a private company can do whatever they want; but small companies will have a harder time imposing some constraints on visitors than the bigger ones.
As far as your company allowing only US citizens, it's most likely due to classified government work; and even then, it's most of the time limited to US persons and not US citizens.

Remember: as a company, if you limit who can visit your facilities, you are limiting your pool of vendors and/or customers, hence potentially putting you as a disadvantage versus your competitors. But then again, for a company like Boeing, vendors will bend over backwards while flipping off a small mom-and-pop shop.

Of course. When you limit visitors you potentially limit possible business. But you seemed shocked that Boeing has the ability to require visitors to be vaccinated.

My company required visitors to be vaccinated or, if not, quarantined for 2 weeks after traveling prior to coming on site. Which effectively made non-vaccinated visitors impractical because no company is paying to have someone quarantine for 2 weeks for a short visit. At the end of November all visitors must be vaccinated along with the employees.

I'm not shocked that Boeing, or any other company for that matter, has the ability to put in place such a requirement for visitors; I'm surprised that they are indeed doing it.
Like I said, Boeing can get away with it since, if a vendor refuses to comply, there are 10 in line waiting to take their place; this is not possible for smaller companies.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:55 pm

planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
planecane wrote:

Why not offer a test every morning (employee paid) as an alternative? If negative, very close to 100% that the person can not transmit COVID to anybody else that day. There will be rare cases where infection develops between the test and the end of the day but will still be "safer" than the 70% provided by the vaccines.

That is much more work for management. Are you asking for people like me to come in a half hour earlier to verify daily? No. Just no

If everyone is vaccinated, my risk of having an employee out is 9% of the risk of a largely unvaccinated workforce. (.29*.3=0.087, see link above). When you start multiplying that across a large team then take into account parents who bring it home and must care for elderly or children...

Please look at how highly vaccinated areas, in particular recent vaccinations reduce transmission:
https://time.com/6107886/japan-covid-19-case-drop/

My math says we need 80% to 92% vaccinated to get out of this. I talked with a friend yesterday trying to get him to vaccinate. If he refused, he is locked out of an industry.

Eight days until the last vaccine start of Moderna. My employer moved up proof of vaccination, 1st jab to the 29th of this month (October) or apply for exemption via a web page. Termination process starts Nov 1st, so Boeing is playing nice.

I couldn't imagine managing what you propose at the scale of Boeing.

Lightsaber


We're only talking about a small percentage of the total employees. Making employees pay for the daily testing would encourage all by the most hard line to get vaccinated instead. However, it would give a good employee who has decided that they won't take the COVID vaccine no matter what an option to keep their job, while being as safe or safer to everybody else as if they had been vaccinated.

It would never work if only a handful of employees were vaccinated but it can be done if it is only a handful who aren't.

Does your math take into account the waning effectiveness against infection that has been seen in the UK and Israel? Given how contagious the Delta variant is, I don't think 100% worldwide vaccination would completely eliminate COVID. We'd end up with a lot fewer severely ill and dead people but I think this virus is here to stay for eternity.

Yes, I take into account waning effectiveness. However, boosters reverse that trend. We know we'll need boosters. :yawn:

Please read the FAQ on the mandate, it sets the industry rules:
https://www.saferfederalworkforce.gov/faq/contractors/

The rules are brutal. Those granted an exemption can be made to test. Please read through what must be done, in particular quarantine of any suspected exposure of unvaccinated. You are handwaving away costly accomodations.

United lost half a percent of employees:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/30/uniteds ... fired.html

LA unified lost 0.6%
https://news.yahoo.com/confronted-losin ... 09855.html

You are arguing for the individual, I am looking at it from organizational cost/benefit.

Please take the time to explore case rates:
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... RT~ESP~SGP

And vaccination rates: Only the UAE, Portugal, and soon Spain and Singapore meet the 80% threshold.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... PN~GBR~ITA

Portugal shows a higher rate is needed than 80% in a tourist economy. If 80% isn't good enough, go for 92%.

Since they reduction in transmission is quite obvious to me from the data, I'm quite willing to answer legitimate questions, but we've beat this horse to death.

Lightsaber
 
planecane
Posts: 1745
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Portugal shows a higher rate is needed than 80% in a tourist economy. If 80% isn't good enough, go for 92%.

Since they reduction in transmission is quite obvious to me from the data, I'm quite willing to answer legitimate questions, but we've beat this horse to death.

Lightsaber


I think we should be careful about drawing conclusions based upon data which isn't collected in a scientific study involving control groups. I could say that is is obvious from the data from Florida that 59% of the population fully vaccinated is enough and the reduction in spread is obvious.

Most likely the drastic reduction in cases is due to the large spike leading to enough naturally immune people when combined with the vaccinated. However, I can't know this for certain without a properly designed study.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:36 pm

planecane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Portugal shows a higher rate is needed than 80% in a tourist economy. If 80% isn't good enough, go for 92%.

Since they reduction in transmission is quite obvious to me from the data, I'm quite willing to answer legitimate questions, but we've beat this horse to death.

Lightsaber


I think we should be careful about drawing conclusions based upon data which isn't collected in a scientific study involving control groups. I could say that is is obvious from the data from Florida that 59% of the population fully vaccinated is enough and the reduction in spread is obvious.

Most likely the drastic reduction in cases is due to the large spike leading to enough naturally immune people when combined with the vaccinated. However, I can't know this for certain without a properly designed study.

We can agree data isn't complete. For example, does Portugal have a lower vaccinated region particularly hard hit? It is going to depend on the distribution of the unvaccinated too.

I love the detail Florida provides on coronavirus. Much better than what I find for other states:
https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/

The positivity rate of 3.8% is good, but still high.
With Florida having 19519 cases in a week, 21.57 million population, that is 129.3 per million per day, double Portugal's 63.14 which I commented on needing more vaccine.

I think my conclusions were in the ballpark for an aerospace company. Real world data ends up being the benchmark. Portugal is a tourist destination, which makes everything tougher (more contacts).

Natural immunity can fade in as little as three months:
https://www.concordmonitor.com/covid-co ... e-42971797

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021 ... ction.html

The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.


If you read the faq, it doesn't consider natural immunity because the effectiveness and duration is so variable. The government has set the bar for a known minimum immunity. Do while natural immunity is somewhat helpful, it meets a far lower standard than vaccination.

So while an area might benefit from natural immunity, the waves come every 3 to 5 months for a reason. I believe that reason is natural immunity fades. I personally have had several aerospace workers out twice for Covid19. Most of my employees had a worse 2nd exposure.

But read the faq. Our opinions do not count.
The next mandate, for all companies with 100+ employees is coming.
https://www.reuters.com/business/ups-di ... 021-10-19/

These debates are interesting, but the preponderance of evidence is to have more people vaccinated. Boeing has a limited time to get 1st jab into people.

We do business with Boeing. Starting December 8th (see faq), we cannot allow unvaccinated on campus and same with all the big aerospace companies. An unvaccinated person couldn't be used on my team (we travel). We already have multiple vendors that require 100% of visitors to be vaccinated. Their house, their rules.

Lightsaber
 
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kanban
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:41 pm

As I recall when I hired into Boeing years ago, I had to provide proof of several vaccinations before I was hired. I see Covid vaccinations will be a gate future employees will have to pass. Then it will not be a news item. Had I done some overseas work for Boeing, there was a list of mandatory vaccinations .. get the vaccination or stay in the country.. simple and not news worthy.

Of course when I hired in, they were just throwing people at production. You could end up standing in line with your part, fasteners, and tools for 15 minutes waiting for some one to exit the plane to make room for you. It was crowded then... today no so much.
Last edited by kanban on Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tys777
Moderator
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Re: Boeing to require COVID vaccine for all employees

Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:03 pm

Due to an inability to stay on topic, this thread is now locked.

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