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LAXintl
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EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:06 am

The EU and Qatar finally signed their open-skies agreement originally negotiated in 2019 after being held up due internal EU dispute over Gibraltar.

At the behest of European carriers, some capacity caps will remain in place until 2024 on flights to Belgium, Germany, France, Italy and Netherlands along with restriction on 5th freedom passenger flights.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... ip_21_5344
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:22 am

Just in time for the World Cup next year and the Formula One race this year....
 
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DLHAM
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:37 am

EU airports in Germany, France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands will be subject to a gradual build-up of capacity until 2024.


Germany: 21 weekly services between Qatar and Frankfurt, 21 weekly services between Qatar and Munich, and 14 weekly services between Qatar and each of all other points in Germany.


This is only 7 weekly additional flights compared to today. Does anyone know how this will increase over the time? Qatar wants to serve DUS and HAM ASAP, but under these regulations only one will be possible if they want daily flights to each Destination.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:43 am

DLHAM wrote:
This is only 7 weekly additional flights compared to today. Does anyone know how this will increase over the time? Qatar wants to serve DUS and HAM ASAP, but under these regulations only one will be possible if they want daily flights to each Destination.


Yes, the number of frequencies to Belgium, Germany, France, Italy and Netherlands will gradually increase each IATA winter schedule season.

Imo, an unfortunate compromise resultant from European airline and union pressure to delay the liberalization.
 
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mercure1
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:02 am

Good its finally signed.
Too bad however the complaints earlier this year to the government of heavy weights like Air France and Lufthansa manages to cause delays in the full implementation of the accord.
 
atal17
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:50 am

LAXintl wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
This is only 7 weekly additional flights compared to today. Does anyone know how this will increase over the time? Qatar wants to serve DUS and HAM ASAP, but under these regulations only one will be possible if they want daily flights to each Destination.


Yes, the number of frequencies to Belgium, Germany, France, Italy and Netherlands will gradually increase each IATA winter schedule season.

Imo, an unfortunate compromise resultant from European airline and union pressure to delay the liberalization.


Does it mention how many frequencies by which the total number alloted to Belgium/Germany/France/Italy/Netherlands will increase each IATA winter season?
 
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eurotrader85
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:34 am

Real shame 5th Freedom is not allowed, would have been a real win for consumers. But good to see the hidden interests of the big airlines finally being slapped down.
 
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vhtje
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:36 am

Does this give QR any advantage over EK? I don't think there is an openskies agreement between the EU and the UAE, is there? A google search suggests UAE has agreements with some individual EU member states, not the EU.
 
cityshuttle
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:25 am

vhtje wrote:
Does this give QR any advantage over EK? I don't think there is an openskies agreement between the EU and the UAE, is there? A google search suggests UAE has agreements with some individual EU member states, not the EU.


No, the EU and the UAE also negotiated for an Open Skies agreement. But iirc, the UAE didn’t want to guarantee any labor / employment conditions … well Qatar did make such commitment and secured the Open Skies.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:47 am

vhtje wrote:
Does this give QR any advantage over EK? I don't think there is an openskies agreement between the EU and the UAE, is there? A google search suggests UAE has agreements with some individual EU member states, not the EU.


In Germany not, Emirates is allowed to serve 3+1 airports but with unlimited frequency, Qatar until now was allowed 35 weekly flights per direction to AFAIK any airport. This seems to have changed to 14 to FRA, 14 to MUC and 14 to any. So Qatar could now serve almost every runway in Germany that can handle a 787 but at very low frequency. Emirates on the other hand can fly unlimited but only to four airports.
So right now Emirates has the better deal, but when Qatar starts to reveive more frequencies they will have an advantage because for Emirates there is no point to serve HAM, DUS, FRA, MUC with five daily flights example. Qatar on the other hand will be able to add HAM, DUS, STR on top of BER, FRA, MUC.
 
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Polot
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:06 am

DLHAM wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Does this give QR any advantage over EK? I don't think there is an openskies agreement between the EU and the UAE, is there? A google search suggests UAE has agreements with some individual EU member states, not the EU.


In Germany not, Emirates is allowed to serve 3+1 airports but with unlimited frequency, Qatar until now was allowed 35 weekly flights per direction to AFAIK any airport. This seems to have changed to 14 to FRA, 14 to MUC and 14 to any.

It’s 21 weekly FRA, 21 to MUC, and 14 weekly to “each of all other points” in Germany (all this until 2024).

I interpret that last statement to mean QR can fly to as German destination outside of FRA/MUC as they want, but for each one they can only fly a max of 2x daily. Not that QR only has 14 other weekly frequencies to split between multiple points.

Long term QR definitely has the better deal. Short term who knows. EK has been desperately trying to get into BER for a while now for example.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:44 am

Polot wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Does this give QR any advantage over EK? I don't think there is an openskies agreement between the EU and the UAE, is there? A google search suggests UAE has agreements with some individual EU member states, not the EU.


In Germany not, Emirates is allowed to serve 3+1 airports but with unlimited frequency, Qatar until now was allowed 35 weekly flights per direction to AFAIK any airport. This seems to have changed to 14 to FRA, 14 to MUC and 14 to any.

It’s 21 weekly FRA, 21 to MUC, and 14 weekly to “each of all other points” in Germany (all this until 2024).

I interpret that last statement to mean QR can fly to as German destination outside of FRA/MUC as they want, but for each one they can only fly a max of 2x daily. Not that QR only has 14 other weekly frequencies to split between multiple points.

Long term QR definitely has the better deal. Short term who knows. EK has been desperately trying to get into BER for a while now for example.


You are right, I completely missed that FRA and MUC is 21. So Qatar will have the same problem as Emirates. They can serve certain airports but have very limited to no options to serve additional airports. Lufthansa is trying hard to prevent Qatar to fly to HAM, DUS and STR because they have few direct competition there and can ask for high prices, Emirates is bad enough for them at DUS and HAM. The same reason why they they try to avoid Chinese Airlines to get more access.

But to my understanding the landing rights for Qatar will increase by 7 weekly frequencies each direction every year (?) until 2024.
 
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Polot
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:09 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Polot wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

In Germany not, Emirates is allowed to serve 3+1 airports but with unlimited frequency, Qatar until now was allowed 35 weekly flights per direction to AFAIK any airport. This seems to have changed to 14 to FRA, 14 to MUC and 14 to any.

It’s 21 weekly FRA, 21 to MUC, and 14 weekly to “each of all other points” in Germany (all this until 2024).

I interpret that last statement to mean QR can fly to as German destination outside of FRA/MUC as they want, but for each one they can only fly a max of 2x daily. Not that QR only has 14 other weekly frequencies to split between multiple points.

Long term QR definitely has the better deal. Short term who knows. EK has been desperately trying to get into BER for a while now for example.


You are right, I completely missed that FRA and MUC is 21. So Qatar will have the same problem as Emirates. They can serve certain airports but have very limited to no options to serve additional airports.

:confused: QR can fly to whatever German airport they like (as long as it is able to accept international flights of course). Just each one they can only serve a max of 14x weekly until the restrictions go away in 2024.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:25 pm

Which advantage does Europe have from this deal? What are the benefits for the European side?
 
myki
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:55 pm

What would QR's strategy be here do you think?
FRA x 21
MUC x 21
BER x 14

Or perhaps spread the love around?
FRA x 21
MUC x 21
BER x 7
Airport A x 4
Airport B x 3
Perhaps these could be the two EK airports or maybe two smaller unserved-from-the-Middle-East airports to lock up the market there (e.g. DRS, HAJ, CGN, etc.)
 
xwb777
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:56 pm

I really do not see European airlines launching flights to Doha at the moment. Maybe during or prior to the World Cup 2022.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:22 pm

Polot wrote:
:confused: QR can fly to whatever German airport they like (as long as it is able to accept international flights of course). Just each one they can only serve a max of 14x weekly until the restrictions go away in 2024.


I dont really get what you mean. It specifically says FRA and MUC 21 weekly. The remaining 14 frequencies can be used to wherever they want. This is what it looks like to me. :boggled:

myki wrote:
What would QR's strategy be here do you think?
FRA x 21
MUC x 21
BER x 14

Or perhaps spread the love around?
FRA x 21
MUC x 21
BER x 7
Airport A x 4
Airport B x 3
Perhaps these could be the two EK airports or maybe two smaller unserved-from-the-Middle-East airports to lock up the market there (e.g. DRS, HAJ, CGN, etc.)


DRS, HAJ? Seriously? Qatar wants to serve HAM and DUS very quickly.
The next step I think will be the launch of a daily service to DUS or HAM, then one year later the other one. After that I think they will decide if they want to serve STR first or increase Berlin. When does QR receive their A321neo? This is the perfect Equipment for STR. DUS and HAM can be 787/350 easily.

TheSonntag wrote:
Which advantage does Europe have from this deal? What are the benefits for the European side?


Secondary airports in Germany have huge advantages. Airports with a certain demand that lack Lufthansa Services to Asia and where Lufthansa blocks other Airlines from flying there. Options would be better and prices more attractive at those airports.
 
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Polot
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:30 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Polot wrote:
:confused: QR can fly to whatever German airport they like (as long as it is able to accept international flights of course). Just each one they can only serve a max of 14x weekly until the restrictions go away in 2024.


I dont really get what you mean. It specifically says FRA and MUC 21 weekly. The remaining 14 frequencies can be used to wherever they want. This is what it looks like to me. :boggled:

myki wrote:
What would QR's strategy be here do you think?
FRA x 21
MUC x 21
BER x 14

Or perhaps spread the love around?
FRA x 21
MUC x 21
BER x 7
Airport A x 4
Airport B x 3
Perhaps these could be the two EK airports or maybe two smaller unserved-from-the-Middle-East airports to lock up the market there (e.g. DRS, HAJ, CGN, etc.)


DRS, HAJ? Seriously? Qatar wants to serve HAM and DUS very quickly.
The next step I think will be the launch of a daily service to DUS or HAM, then one year later the other one. After that I think they will decide if they want to serve STR first or increase Berlin. When does QR receive their A321neo? This is the perfect Equipment for STR. DUS and HAM can be 787/350 easily.

TheSonntag wrote:
Which advantage does Europe have from this deal? What are the benefits for the European side?


Secondary airports in Germany have huge advantages. Airports with a certain demand that lack Lufthansa Services to Asia and where Lufthansa blocks other Airlines from flying there. Options would be better and prices more attractive at those airports.

The key word is “each”. It says “14 weekly services between Qatar and each of all other points in Germany.” It doesn’t say 14 weekly services to any other points in Germany. That implies that those 14 weekly services are destination specific. The bilateral just doesn’t want to say 21 to FRA, 21 to MUC, 14 to DUS, 14 to HAM, 14 to STR, 14 to BER, 14 to…
Last edited by Polot on Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CALMSP
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:30 pm

xwb777 wrote:
I really do not see European airlines launching flights to Doha at the moment. Maybe during or prior to the World Cup 2022.


even that I think it'll be a more chartered flights to DOH for the WC22, nothing scheduled as Qatar has nothing to attract people to visit on a regular basis.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:19 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Which advantage does Europe have from this deal? What are the benefits for the European side?


Europe gets more flights and lower fares for Europe-originating travelers. It's pro-consumer instead of pro-(EU) airlines.
 
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zkojq
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:03 pm

cityshuttle wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Does this give QR any advantage over EK? I don't think there is an openskies agreement between the EU and the UAE, is there? A google search suggests UAE has agreements with some individual EU member states, not the EU.


No, the EU and the UAE also negotiated for an Open Skies agreement. But iirc, the UAE didn’t want to guarantee any labor / employment conditions … well Qatar did make such commitment and secured the Open Skies.


What labor conditions were made? Will QR still be able to fudge duty times (and thus have an advantage over EASA regulated airlines) with the bunk rule?
 
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mercure1
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:16 pm

cityshuttle wrote:
No, the EU and the UAE also negotiated for an Open Skies agreement. But iirc, the UAE didn’t want to guarantee any labor / employment conditions … well Qatar did make such commitment and secured the Open Skies.


There was no agreement. UAE declined to pursue "open-skies" talks in 2019 when it became clear that the EU would not offer full liberalization including 3,4,5th freedom rights

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... s-talks-eu

zkojq wrote:
What labor conditions were made? Will QR still be able to fudge duty times (and thus have an advantage over EASA regulated airlines) with the bunk rule?


It's not aviation-specific, its broader social and labor standards as per previously agreed international commitments.

TheSonntag wrote:
Which advantage does Europe have from this deal? What are the benefits for the European side?


Competition is good for consumers, as additional frequencies, new routes, price competition increases etc.
One good benefit hopefully will be QR will launch service from additional smaller markets, and one can avoid having to be funnelled via EU hubs like CDG, FRA etc.

The EU press release even has this in its Q&A:

3. I am an EU citizen – what is in it for me?
The EU-Qatar aviation agreement will improve connectivity and provide more options at competitive prices for passengers.
 
tomcat
Posts: 859
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:21 am

DLHAM wrote:

TheSonntag wrote:
Which advantage does Europe have from this deal? What are the benefits for the European side?


Secondary airports in Germany have huge advantages. Airports with a certain demand that lack Lufthansa Services to Asia and where Lufthansa blocks other Airlines from flying there. Options would be better and prices more attractive at those airports.


Maybe Europe and more specifically Airbus can still hope for an A350F order by QR thanks to this timely agreement. Otherwise what would be the need to rush such an agreement in the current market conditions (from the politicians point of view)? Provide more direct cargo capacity from EU to the world at time of capacity shortages which impact the EU industrial sector?
 
edealinfo
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Re: EU - Qatar Open-Skies deal signed

Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:18 pm

cityshuttle wrote:
vhtje wrote:
But iirc, the UAE didn’t want to guarantee any labor / employment conditions … well Qatar did make such commitment and secured the Open Skies.


What are these labor conditions in plain words?

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