Plane Crash in Waller County, Texas

Miami · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:00 pm

Possible fatal crash in Texas.

Details unknown at this time however it appears to be either a DC-9 or MD-80.

https://fb.watch/8KF1TfrKmH/

- Miami

KPDX · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:01 pm

It's N987AK. Private MD-87 based near Houston.

Last ADS-B Exchange info shows it doing 150 kts near the end of the runway on departure from Houston Executive Airport (KTME).

Sooner787 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:05 pm

KHOU is reporting 21 people onboard, all got out, no fatalities....

Miami · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:07 pm

Overran runway 36 at KTME. Possible now that there is no fatalities.
https://twitter.com/TheAstroN8/status/1 ... 99394?s=20

md80fanatic · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:31 pm

If everyone got out alive, I doubt the MD-87 ever became airborne. Likely a rejected TO.

NIKV69 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:35 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
KHOU is reporting 21 people onboard, all got out, no fatalities....

Thank God!

Miami · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:40 pm

Confirmed everyone survived and only one injured which appears to be minor.

Newark727 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:47 pm

Miami wrote:
Confirmed everyone survived and only one injured which appears to be minor.

Huge relief - "crash of an MD-87 with 21 aboard" had me fearing the worst.

FlyingElvii · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:55 pm

Owned by “987 Investments” in Spring Texas, and tracking blocked. Some photos of it in Las Vegas. High Roller Casino Shuttle?

blackbox67 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:55 pm

Both reversers seem to be in the stowed position.

https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/14 ... 2384951299

tenHangar · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:01 pm

Did the wings rip off? Don't see in photos/video.

Revelation · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:03 pm

Interesting text and video coverage at https://abc13.com/plane-crash-katy-toda ... /11143371/ ...

Currently showing LIVE coverage of press conference , also has some recorded video segments too.

TWA302 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:08 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Owned by “987 Investments” in Spring Texas, and tracking blocked. Some photos of it in Las Vegas. High Roller Casino Shuttle?

Headed to BOS, probably charter for the ALCS.

If this photo is from prior to take-off, does it look like the slats are retracted?

Revelation · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:11 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Headed to BOS, probably charter for the ALCS.

ABC-13 coverage (link above) just confirmed this, reporter says she spoke to the plane's owner, says the pax were friends and family of the plane's owner going to Boston to see the Astros play in the ALCS, with one pax as young as 10 years old.

Armodeen · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:13 pm

md80fanatic wrote:
If everyone got out alive, I doubt the MD-87 ever became airborne. Likely a rejected TO.

You can see tyre marks all the way off the end of the runway in the overheads, you were right.

Revelation · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:17 pm

tenHangar wrote:
Did the wings rip off? Don't see in photos/video.

ABC-13 helicopter video shows end of runway and skid marks to final resting point, with no evidence of the wings being ripped off and left behind. Do see some small trees/shrubs that have burned but again we only see wreckage in one place. Fire has consumed the wreckage but I think I see the outline of the right wing, the left wing is not as clear to me.

A320FlyGuy · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Thank Goodness there were no fatalities - except for the plane.

Sad that a relatively rare aircraft has come to grief....be interesting to see what the NTSB report shows. If that picture that was posted earlier in the thread was from the attempted flight today, it does look like the slats are retracted...I wonder if this might be similar to the Northwest Airlines crash back in the 80s....hopefully there is enough left of the cockpit to see if the aural warning circuit breaker was in or not.

Of course, right now, this is all speculation on my part...

Revelation · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:22 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Owned by “987 Investments” in Spring Texas, and tracking blocked. Some photos of it in Las Vegas. High Roller Casino Shuttle?

https://abc13.com/plane-crash-j-alan-ke ... /11143659/ provides a name for the owner, and as below, it was friends and family going to Boston to watch the Astros vs Red Sox ALCS game.

FLALEFTY · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:36 pm

KTME is located on very flat terrain. The one runway, 18/36 is 6,610 ft. long and 100 ft. wide, which normally would be plenty of runway for a MD87 to safely operate. It appears to have reached Morton Rd., which is about 1,000 feet from the end of runway 36, which also took out some fencing and overhead power lines.

https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KTME/map

TWA302 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:46 pm

Here is a clip of some good aerial footage that shows that it came down just past the end of the runway. Hard to tell if it actually became airborne (attempted) or went straight through. As previously noted, thrust reverser deployment is evident.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1450490601368076290

2eng2efficient · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:03 pm

TWA302 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Owned by “987 Investments” in Spring Texas, and tracking blocked. Some photos of it in Las Vegas. High Roller Casino Shuttle?

Headed to BOS, probably charter for the ALCS.

If this photo is from prior to take-off, does it look like the slats are retracted?

Very difficult to tell but it is possible the flaps are not configured for takeoff there…

I’m getting some Spanair 5022 vibes. Thank God everyone survived; extremely dangerous situation.

PANAMsterdam · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:10 pm

2eng2efficient wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Owned by “987 Investments” in Spring Texas, and tracking blocked. Some photos of it in Las Vegas. High Roller Casino Shuttle?

Headed to BOS, probably charter for the ALCS.

If this photo is from prior to take-off, does it look like the slats are retracted?

Very difficult to tell but it is possible the flaps are not configured for takeoff there…

I’m getting some Spanair 5022 vibes. Thank God everyone survived; extremely dangerous situation.

I'm not a MD expert, but I assume these birds have a take off configuration warning as well?

2eng2efficient · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:20 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
TWA302 wrote:

Headed to BOS, probably charter for the ALCS.

If this photo is from prior to take-off, does it look like the slats are retracted?

Very difficult to tell but it is possible the flaps are not configured for takeoff there…

I’m getting some Spanair 5022 vibes. Thank God everyone survived; extremely dangerous situation.

I'm not a MD expert, but I assume these birds have a take off configuration warning as well?

Yes, it does. And in 1987, after the Northwest 255 accident, MD recommended operators check the T/O Warning System (TOWS) before each flight. The Spanair crew failed to do this.

The NTSB subsequently identified an electrical relay onboard the DC-9/MD-80 series that can malfunction and inadvertently disable TOWS on the ground. If the crew follows SOP and checks the system, this failure alone shouldn’t endanger the aircraft.

More info here:
https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs ... _67_71.pdf

The Swiss cheese model exists for a reason.

par13del · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:35 pm

So we all believe that the still photo is actually form the flight today, actually asking.
I assume it was a stock photo of the a/c from some other time, my reason, if a photographer was there taking pictures they would also have photos immediately after the crash, maybe they do and they are just being sold to the highest bidder.
Best part of the news video is at the end where they zoom out to show the crash location in relation to the runway.
Good news all survived, just hope the Astros are not affected and they win tonight, not a fan of either team but cant stand Boston more than the cheaters.

Gotsumpnferya · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:44 pm

A couple of things looked odd to me.
In the video, the initial roll showed a quick puff of smoke from one or both of the engines. Also, the grass looked charred only behind the #1 engine at the crash scene. Also, wouldn't the reversers have been deployed during an RTO? Maybe they were past V1 but not configured correctly. I thought this type had a TO config warning.
Just observations of course.

TWA302 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:47 pm

par13del wrote:
So we all believe that the still photo is actually form the flight today, actually asking.
I assume it was a stock photo of the a/c from some other time, my reason, if a photographer was there taking pictures they would also have photos immediately after the crash, maybe they do and they are just being sold to the highest bidder.
Best part of the news video is at the end where they zoom out to show the crash location in relation to the runway.
Good news all survived, just hope the Astros are not affected and they win tonight, not a fan of either team but cant stand Boston more than the cheaters.

I didn't say I believe that the photo was from today, I said, "IF this photo is from today" throwing it out there as a possibility and having an observation based off of what I am possibly seeing.

F9Animal · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:58 pm

The very first thing that came to mind was flaps/slats when I heard it was an MD-80. Guess we will know soon. Thankfully everyone is safe!

FLALEFTY · Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:59 pm

TWA302 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So we all believe that the still photo is actually form the flight today, actually asking.
I assume it was a stock photo of the a/c from some other time, my reason, if a photographer was there taking pictures they would also have photos immediately after the crash, maybe they do and they are just being sold to the highest bidder.
Best part of the news video is at the end where they zoom out to show the crash location in relation to the runway.
Good news all survived, just hope the Astros are not affected and they win tonight, not a fan of either team but cant stand Boston more than the cheaters.

I didn't say I believe that the photo was from today, I said, "IF this photo is from today" throwing it out there as a possibility and having an observation based off of what I am possibly seeing.

It appears the photo might be from a PTZ security cam installed by the FBO to keep an eye on their ramp.

I also imagine the plane was fairly heavy, tanking enough fuel to make the trip out and back from KBOS. Jet A at KTME is $5.00 per gallon, but at KBOS it is $9.37 per gallon.

FlyingElvii · Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:16 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So we all believe that the still photo is actually form the flight today, actually asking.
I assume it was a stock photo of the a/c from some other time, my reason, if a photographer was there taking pictures they would also have photos immediately after the crash, maybe they do and they are just being sold to the highest bidder.
Best part of the news video is at the end where they zoom out to show the crash location in relation to the runway.
Good news all survived, just hope the Astros are not affected and they win tonight, not a fan of either team but cant stand Boston more than the cheaters.

I didn't say I believe that the photo was from today, I said, "IF this photo is from today" throwing it out there as a possibility and having an observation based off of what I am possibly seeing.

It appears the photo might be from a PTZ security cam installed by the FBO to keep an eye on their ramp.

I also imagine the plane was fairly heavy, tanking enough fuel to make the trip out and back from KBOS. Jet A at KTME is $5.00 per gallon, but at KBOS it is $9.37 per gallon.

Am MD-87 that light would have an amazing range, especially if it was an LR version.

Revelation · Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:31 pm

par13del wrote:
So we all believe that the still photo is actually form the flight today, actually asking.

ABC13 showed surveillance cam video of the ramp. This very well could be a still grabbed from that video. Won't say for sure, though am saying it is quite possible. I don't have time to re-watch their video, but I did post some links above.

nm2582 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:31 pm

Uninformed speculation:
The ground behind #2 makes me wonder if it was running at some above-idle power setting for at least a moment after the aircraft came to rest.
The unaffected ground behind #1 also makes me wonder.

phatfarmlines · Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:36 pm

Does this mark the 2nd consecutive commercial hull loss in the Houston metro area in the past two years?

FLALEFTY · Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:39 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
TWA302 wrote:

I didn't say I believe that the photo was from today, I said, "IF this photo is from today" throwing it out there as a possibility and having an observation based off of what I am possibly seeing.

It appears the photo might be from a PTZ security cam installed by the FBO to keep an eye on their ramp.

I also imagine the plane was fairly heavy, tanking enough fuel to make the trip out and back from KBOS. Jet A at KTME is $5.00 per gallon, but at KBOS it is $9.37 per gallon.

Am MD-87 that light would have an amazing range, especially if it was an LR version.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=KTME-BOS&MS=wls&DU=nm

As you can see, KTME to KBOS is 1,417 nm, so the accident MD87 might have been carrying enough fuel to fly the 2,834 nm R/T, plus 45 minute reserves. I imagine being a corporate version it has additional aux fuel tanks, which could push its range 3,500~4,000 nm +/-. At MTOW & at sea level ISA the MD87 needs 7,500 ft. of runway per MD's spec sheet. I don't think this was anywhere near MTOW, but it was probably heavier than their normal ops and they may have gotten their T/O performance numbers wrong.

The other theory, incorrect flap setting, might have been a factor, too?

JBirdAV8r · Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:54 pm

Hard to speculate whether that still image was from today.

It’s hard to tell if slats/flaps are extended. They very well could be. That picture looks like a low res still from a video. All the exterior lights appear to be on, which could be an indication it’s either taking off or it’s imminent. That could be operator dependent, but it’s unusual for taxi (especially in broad daylight).

861tw · Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:04 pm

The image is from a video shot as the aircraft was on its takeoff roll. Unfortunately it doesn't show the complete roll down the runway. You can see a puff of white smoke from one of the engines very early in the roll.

Northwest1988 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:25 pm

First and foremost, so glad that everyone got out!

Next, any plane crash is terrible, but from a very passionate MD fanboy, this is even more sad!

MareBorealis · Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:26 pm

The history:

rbavfan · Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:01 pm

md80fanatic wrote:
If everyone got out alive, I doubt the MD-87 ever became airborne. Likely a rejected TO.

Was reported it did not lift off & overran the runway. Sounds like flaps were up for T-O. If the alarm did not sound that would make me believe they may have bypassed the alarm circuit that was commonly done before the NW crash. My best guess opinion only. We will see what the bxes show.

rbavfan · Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:03 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
First and foremost, so glad that everyone got out!

Next, any plane crash is terrible, but from a very passionate MD fanboy, this is even more sad!

And one of the rare models.

FlyingViking · Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:32 pm

The ABC13 feed has a very short view from the right rear down. I think I can just catch the trailing edge of the right wing. Looks like flaps were extended.
https://abc13.com/plane-crash-katy-toda ... /11143371/

FlyingElvii · Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:33 pm

nm2582 wrote:
Uninformed speculation:
The ground behind #2 makes me wonder if it was running at some above-idle power setting for at least a moment after the aircraft came to rest.
The unaffected ground behind #1 also makes me wonder.

That picture makes it look like an engine fail on takeoff?

flyPIT · Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:53 pm

Does this airport not have appropriate ARFF? Pretty painful watching the local VFD put out that fire with a squirt gun.

btfarrwm · Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:58 pm

Jammed elevator similar to the Ameristar MD-83 incident in Michigan a few years ago?

IAHWorldflyer · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:03 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Does this airport not have appropriate ARFF? Pretty painful watching the local VFD put out that fire with a squirt gun.

I am not positive, but I do not think this airport has any on-site ARFF. The guys in the video probably drove over from the town of Brookshire, which is like 5 miles away. I happen to work out in this vicinity, and this is a pretty small airport. I was shocked when I found out an MD-87 was suing that runway. Most everything I ever see coming out of there is single engine prop planes. I was working from home today though, so only have seen the TV reports.

DL_Mech · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:16 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Owned by “987 Investments” in Spring Texas, and tracking blocked. Some photos of it in Las Vegas. High Roller Casino Shuttle?

N987AK is owned by James Alan Kent

http://jalankent.com/founder/

KCaviator · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:16 pm

Wow, yet another Part 91/135 accident...

Skid marks appear to by visible near the end of the runway. Tire marks in the grass make it obvious the aircraft never got off the ground. Couple things immediately come to mind here:

1) Eerily similar to the accident with the University of Michigan basketball team.

2) Possibly not configured for takeoff?

The runway is 6610 feet, more than enough for this aircraft. This plane didn't fly either due to a botched rejected takeoff, control issue, or incorrect takeoff configuration. That's my way-too-early-to-tell prediction at least.

Boeing757100 · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:19 pm

Could the aircraft have been overloaded? Though maybe not, since it is likely the takeoff was rejected. So maybe some sudden brake/reverse thrust failure or the engine(s) were somehow stuck on full power. Or, more likely, the pilots were too late in aborting the takeoff because they had already reached V1/commitment speed and didn't have enough runway left to stop.

So, basically, here are my (very basic) theories

- Overloaded
- Brake/Reverse thrust failure when trying to abort T/O
- Engines stuck on full power when trying to abort T/O (this is probably the least likely out of my very basic theories)
- Pilot error (they chose to abort their takeoff too late and didn't have enough runway to stop)
- Pilot error (didn't have correct T/O config, like forgetting flaps or something)

Anyone more experienced and knowledgeable can expound further (or disprove) my list of theories. I'll wait for the official reports before I speculate further.

GalaxyFlyer · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:23 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Does this airport not have appropriate ARFF? Pretty painful watching the local VFD put out that fire with a squirt gun.

I am not positive, but I do not think this airport has any on-site ARFF. The guys in the video probably drove over from the town of Brookshire, which is like 5 miles away. I happen to work out in this vicinity, and this is a pretty small airport. I was shocked when I found out an MD-87 was suing that runway. Most everything I ever see coming out of there is single engine prop planes. I was working from home today though, so only have seen the TV reports.

Classic case when the question is why are charters/private aircraft more hazardous than airlines. The fact the plane had the runway performance to operate out of KTME, which was probably chosen for convenience, doesn’t mean there are risks that are associated with doing so, which are not a factor in an airline. No ARFF is pretty common at GA airports, but when nothing goes wrong, no one is concerned. Overrun and catch fire, it’s luck that determines the outcome. Here, it was a lucky day. At KHOU, the full ARFF complement would have made a difference.

The CT bizjet accident a few weeks ago—same thinking. The runway meets the performance required, but didn’t have the runway end safety areas, so a relatively benign overrun (see Oroville accident same type) turned catastrophic.

GalaxyFlyer · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:28 pm

With 21 passengers, it’d have to have some mighty heavy catering to be over gross. RTO, a possibility. TO Config warning should have caught a failure to set flaps early.

Fortunately, lots of grass beyond the end.

YoungDon · Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Does this airport not have appropriate ARFF? Pretty painful watching the local VFD put out that fire with a squirt gun.

I am not positive, but I do not think this airport has any on-site ARFF. The guys in the video probably drove over from the town of Brookshire, which is like 5 miles away. I happen to work out in this vicinity, and this is a pretty small airport. I was shocked when I found out an MD-87 was suing that runway. Most everything I ever see coming out of there is single engine prop planes. I was working from home today though, so only have seen the TV reports.

Classic case when the question is why are charters/private aircraft more hazardous than airlines. The fact the plane had the runway performance to operate out of KTME, which was probably chosen for convenience, doesn’t mean there are risks that are associated with doing so, which are not a factor in an airline. No ARFF is pretty common at GA airports, but when nothing goes wrong, no one is concerned. Overrun and catch fire, it’s luck that determines the outcome. Here, it was a lucky day. At KHOU, the full ARFF complement would have made a difference.

The CT bizjet accident a few weeks ago—same thinking. The runway meets the performance required, but didn’t have the runway end safety areas, so a relatively benign overrun (see Oroville accident same type) turned catastrophic.

True, but at KHOU a runway overrun like this would likely have resulted in a completely different outcome since the area around the airport is so densely populated. The real luck here was that they had a clear area straight ahead of the runway - the airport fence is mainly wire and wood poles and the other side of Morton Road is just vacant land.

This would not have been pretty had it happened at KHOU unless it was contained completely on the airport property (unlikely).

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