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romeokc10fe
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Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:31 pm

Now this is what I call dedication, they obviously loved there jobs, reminds me of the ex-Pan Am employees that still have reunions.


https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... t-80684348
 
PowerJet
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:29 pm

That is so powerful! May god be with them and their families... So sad!
 
superjeff
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pm

PowerJet wrote:
That is so powerful! May god be with them and their families... So sad!


Agreed! (I'm ex Braniff, another departed airline that still has an active "alumni" group.
 
FGITD
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:47 pm

What exactly are they protesting? That a highly unprofitable airline that survived as long as it did by skirting regulations went out of business? And now they’re trying to get FIVE years of unemployment?!

I work for an airline. I get the attachment, I’d be heartbroken to see my company cease to exist. But while many airline employees get caught up in the lifestyle/culture of working for x or y airline…you must remember it’s still a company that needs to make money to survive.
 
fessor
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:49 pm

FGITD wrote:
What exactly are they protesting? That a highly unprofitable airline that survived as long as it did by skirting regulations went out of business? And now they’re trying to get FIVE years of unemployment?!

I work for an airline. I get the attachment, I’d be heartbroken to see my company cease to exist. But while many airline employees get caught up in the lifestyle/culture of working for x or y airline…you must remember it’s still a company that needs to make money to survive.


They protest because not only will many loose their job but also the salery will be cut to about the half.
 
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a36001
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:01 am

fessor wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What exactly are they protesting? That a highly unprofitable airline that survived as long as it did by skirting regulations went out of business? And now they’re trying to get FIVE years of unemployment?!

I work for an airline. I get the attachment, I’d be heartbroken to see my company cease to exist. But while many airline employees get caught up in the lifestyle/culture of working for x or y airline…you must remember it’s still a company that needs to make money to survive.


They protest because not only will many loose their job but also the salery will be cut to about the half.


Sorry to hear that, however if they had of been more flexible in their employment negotiations over the last 20 years, they maybe still employed! People forget airlines are businesses that need to make money in order to employ people. Alitalia has been a basket case for decades.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:15 am

They are absurd. Alitalia was an overstaffed, recklessly run entity, with little more than a lovely livery, a nice premium cabin, and strong brand equity (or so it seemed until it couldn't fetch the valued price last week) for decades. The trade unions representing many of their line workers, including the flight attendants, were offered a deal in 2017 when Etihad walked away. While it may have not been the best deal, it was better than losing their jobs. The writing has been on the wall for AZ for decades. Alitalia's employees shoulder a significant amount of blame for the company's ultimate failure and shutdown with unrealistic expectations for working conditions and wages. They were quite well compensated compared to many European mainline rivals and would continuously mount strikes whenever they didn't agree with efforts to try and make the company profitable.
 
FGITD
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:42 am

a36001 wrote:

Sorry to hear that, however if they had of been more flexible in their employment negotiations over the last 20 years, they maybe still employed! People forget airlines are businesses that need to make money in order to employ people. Alitalia has been a basket case for decades.


Exactly. They were given opportunity after opportunity to do something that might help the situation. They refused. When you’re given the choice to bargain or go out of business, and you choose go out of business…don’t expect a whole lot of sympathy
 
ABpositive
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:59 am

FGITD wrote:
a36001 wrote:

Sorry to hear that, however if they had of been more flexible in their employment negotiations over the last 20 years, they maybe still employed! People forget airlines are businesses that need to make money in order to employ people. Alitalia has been a basket case for decades.


Exactly. They were given opportunity after opportunity to do something that might help the situation. They refused. When you’re given the choice to bargain or go out of business, and you choose go out of business…don’t expect a whole lot of sympathy


Alitalia's demise is not the fault of it's dedicated workforce. Instead it is due to the poor decisions that overpaid and protected executives and upper management made who would like you to believe that the only lever they had was keep on cutting others' salaries (while padding their own pockets with nice bonuses).
The way to keep a business running long-term is to grow it, there is only so much you can achieve through cost-cutting.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:07 am

ABpositive wrote:
FGITD wrote:
a36001 wrote:

Sorry to hear that, however if they had of been more flexible in their employment negotiations over the last 20 years, they maybe still employed! People forget airlines are businesses that need to make money in order to employ people. Alitalia has been a basket case for decades.


Exactly. They were given opportunity after opportunity to do something that might help the situation. They refused. When you’re given the choice to bargain or go out of business, and you choose go out of business…don’t expect a whole lot of sympathy


Alitalia's demise is not the fault of it's dedicated workforce. Instead it is due to the poor decisions that overpaid and protected executives and upper management made who would like you to believe that the only lever they had was keep on cutting others' salaries (while padding their own pockets with nice bonuses).
The way to keep a business running long-term is to grow it, there is only so much you can achieve through cost-cutting.


Not exactly. AZ's unions were particularly greedy and disruptive to the airline's operation for decades. Management also shares the blame. So does the Italian government for letting it go on as long as it did.
 
santi319
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:32 am

Its so sad to see the European Airline workers are among the worst paid in the world. The race to the bottom certainly continues and who knows when will it stop.
 
FGITD
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:38 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
ABpositive wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Exactly. They were given opportunity after opportunity to do something that might help the situation. They refused. When you’re given the choice to bargain or go out of business, and you choose go out of business…don’t expect a whole lot of sympathy


Alitalia's demise is not the fault of it's dedicated workforce. Instead it is due to the poor decisions that overpaid and protected executives and upper management made who would like you to believe that the only lever they had was keep on cutting others' salaries (while padding their own pockets with nice bonuses).
The way to keep a business running long-term is to grow it, there is only so much you can achieve through cost-cutting.


Not exactly. AZ's unions were particularly greedy and disruptive to the airline's operation for decades. Management also shares the blame. So does the Italian government for letting it go on as long as it did.


It’s never just one reason. But the crew arguments seem to boil down to them being upset that other employee or management groups weren’t willing to make the sacrifices the company needed…while they also wouldn’t.

It’s the epitome of “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out ideas!” While also blaming others.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:26 am

They’re looking for 5 years job related unemployment benefits after already bleeding their Italian neighbours dry for decades. They’re a disgrace .
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:38 am

This thread has gone off topic with a lot of comments having nothing to do with former AZ flight attendants stripping in central Rome to protest losing their jobs.

Comments should be about the event: stripping. Not about the bazillion labor and management issues that eventually led to the demise of Alitalia.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am

gaystudpilot wrote:
This thread has gone off topic with a lot of comments having nothing to do with former AZ flight attendants stripping in central Rome to protest losing their jobs.

Comments should be about the event: stripping. Not about the bazillion labor and management issues that eventually led to the demise of Alitalia.


A thread about AZ flight attendants protesting losing their jobs because of the demise of Alitalia shouldn’t include a discussion about how Alitalia met it’s demise? It’s inherently part of the topic.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:52 am

gaystudpilot wrote:
This thread has gone off topic with a lot of comments having nothing to do with former AZ flight attendants stripping in central Rome to protest losing their jobs.

Comments should be about the event: stripping. Not about the bazillion labour and management issues that eventually led to the demise of Alitalia.


I guess you have a strong point here but it is hard to escape the fact that the event occurred because of the demise of the company that they worked for and the fact that ITA is only attaining 3,000 form the 10,000 employees that EZ had and on much more lower conditions (comparable probably to what you would see in the market anyway...).

Alitalia was always ran as a Government entity. Even when privatised (several times, I believe), was still ran as such. Executives had a lot of power but not much accountability on the performance, employees were overpaid and had strong unions that would strike at any moment that something was not going their way. It is a question, many in the transport business, for example, need to consider when going (or not) for privatisation rather than Government run (UK has the same issue with British Rail x Franchising system, for example).

it is a collective fault of all and those that participate of the protest have somehow themselves to blame for the situation.
 
avier
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:04 am

The unions of older legacy airlines live in a bubble, where they want the working and wage conditions the way it was decades ago. They can't accept change of any kind and that certainly doesn't work well for a sustainable business model.

Such airlines like Alitalia, South African, Air India etc have either the option of a shutdown (with a possible fresh start) or privatisation to save the company in some form.
The unions can't just oppose everything and expect things to go on the way it always was.

If one has to compete with Ryanairs & Easyjet's, they need to adapt or can kiss goodbye to the industry.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:52 am

Legal rules should be for everybody. I oppose this sub-sub-contracting.
But expecting the tax payer to long-term fund staff income and privileges an airline itself doesn't generate is unfair as well. Unfair to all tax payers and competing airlines.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:00 am

Noshow wrote:
Legal rules should be for everybody. I oppose this sub-sub-contracting.
But expecting the tax payer to long-term fund staff income and privileges an airline itself doesn't generate is unfair as well. Unfair to all tax payers and competing airlines.

Exactly!
gaystudpilot wrote:
Comments should be about the event: stripping.

Great. Besides Civil Aviation, Non-aviation etc. we should have a new sub-forum for stripping (… including picture database, of course ;-) …)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:05 am

Folks, for fact based discussion, post a source. Post respectfully, comments that are just diatribes will be deleted as flamebait. If your opinion, make it clear you are posting an opinion.
 
jsfr
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:26 am

fessor wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What exactly are they protesting? That a highly unprofitable airline that survived as long as it did by skirting regulations went out of business? And now they’re trying to get FIVE years of unemployment?!

I work for an airline. I get the attachment, I’d be heartbroken to see my company cease to exist. But while many airline employees get caught up in the lifestyle/culture of working for x or y airline…you must remember it’s still a company that needs to make money to survive.


They protest because not only will many loose their job but also the salery will be cut to about the half.


Cut by half. If that is legal, it means they were being paid at least DOUBLE the industry minimums.

Think about that, double…. If anyone still wonders why AZ wasn’t financially viable…..
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:36 am

jsfr wrote:
fessor wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What exactly are they protesting? That a highly unprofitable airline that survived as long as it did by skirting regulations went out of business? And now they’re trying to get FIVE years of unemployment?!

I work for an airline. I get the attachment, I’d be heartbroken to see my company cease to exist. But while many airline employees get caught up in the lifestyle/culture of working for x or y airline…you must remember it’s still a company that needs to make money to survive.


They protest because not only will many loose their job but also the salery will be cut to about the half.


Cut by half. If that is legal, it means they were being paid at least DOUBLE the industry minimums.

Think about that, double…. If anyone still wonders why AZ wasn’t financially viable…..


And that's the point. AZ was on life-support since 1997, the last time it turned a profit. The writing has been on the wall for 20+ years.
 
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garpd
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:49 pm

The whole Alitalia thing does not surprise me. My Italian friend has always said that in Italy, there is "Business" and then there is "Bizniss", the latter a euphemism for corrupt dealings. My friend had a very successful restaurant, he was the owner and chef (his sandwiches he'd feed me at work were out of this world.. but I digress). Then one day the local mayor type official decided the land his and a few other businesses were on would be best used for new luxury flats. So "Bizniss" was done and my friend ended up with no restaurant and left for the UK, where I got to know him.

The dealings surrounding Alitalia and the "new" ITA strikes me as "Bizniss" indeed. And I think the Flight Attendants in this protest see it the same way.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:58 pm

Noshow wrote:
Legal rules should be for everybody. I oppose this sub-sub-contracting.
But expecting the tax payer to long-term fund staff income and privileges an airline itself doesn't generate is unfair as well. Unfair to all tax payers and competing airlines.


Exactly, and if an airline or any company for that matter has redundant staff they should be able to lay them off. Of course with a good social plan that helps them towards finding a new job elsewhere but anyone can see that a staff surplus is not sustainable. Anyone, except for the way too powerful unions in Italy apparently. By not allowing Alitalia to lay off their staff surplus they essentially killed the airline.

Those protesters should blame the unions, if they had been more accepting of staff lay-offs Alitalia might still have been alive and the majority of those workers might still have a job. However they wanted too much and ended up with nothing instead.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:35 pm

garpd wrote:
The whole Alitalia thing does not surprise me. My Italian friend has always said that in Italy, there is "Business" and then there is "Bizniss", the latter a euphemism for corrupt dealings. My friend had a very successful restaurant, he was the owner and chef (his sandwiches he'd feed me at work were out of this world.. but I digress). Then one day the local mayor type official decided the land his and a few other businesses were on would be best used for new luxury flats. So "Bizniss" was done and my friend ended up with no restaurant and left for the UK, where I got to know him.

The dealings surrounding Alitalia and the "new" ITA strikes me as "Bizniss" indeed. And I think the Flight Attendants in this protest see it the same way.


That sounds like a shameless bit of asset "stripping". There I stayed on topic... But yes, I do feel for any employee forced out the door by poor leadership and bad management. I'm sure these gals will find work somewhere else or in another profession. But it strikes my if they didn't see this coming years ago, then perhaps a career in 'stripping' might be their best viable option.
 
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9MMPQ
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:16 pm

While AZ may now be called ITA nothing much has changed & in essence it's the same company in every other sense, just a bit lighter on aircraft & staff. Seeing almost everything continuing as it was and yourself being out on the street is going to be weird for anyone.

With issues over their September salary being paid in halve & a seemingly very random selection of those who could move over to ITA and those who could not that was left until very late i get the emotion & that's all i will say about these individuals who i am sure will be able to move on & do better for themselves.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:35 pm

N14AZ wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
Comments should be about the event: stripping.

Great. Besides Civil Aviation, Non-aviation etc. we should have a new sub-forum for stripping (… including picture database, of course ;-) …)


Of course not. In my pre-post editing, I did not come back to complete my thought.

The point is, the thread should be about the event, the protest in which former Alitalia flight attendants stripped out of their uniforms in protest.

Most other posts in this thread have been discussed ad nauseum in other threads.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:24 pm

Italians are great at drama. They should have created an opera!

Low labor productivity (total wage bill per million Euros of revenue, total wages per million ASKs...) isn't compatible long-term with high wage rates. Investors will put up with losses for just so long. The State isn't willing (or able, under EU regs) to subsidize the carrier indefinitely. How many times in the last two decades did Alitalia's unions fight changes to wage rates, work rules, or employment levels? A much smaller carrier is what you get.
 
max999
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:43 pm

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

This CNN article says high speed rail in Italy helped kill Alitalia. Perhaps the ex-FAs should have been protesting at the Roma Termini train station instead.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:28 pm

max999 wrote:
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/italy-high-speed-trains-alitalia/index.html

This CNN article says high speed rail in Italy helped kill Alitalia. Perhaps the ex-FAs should have been protesting at the Roma Termini train station instead.


Alitalia had a very well developed domestic route network for years, but high speed trains chipped away at it, along with Alitalia's endless strikes and other work stoppages. The Milan-Rome shuttle was once one of the busier ones in the world. Not so any more. AZ long haul was always a loss-maker, except for JFK. Medium haul and particularly routes to the rest of Europe were no match for Ryanair and AZ could not compete on cost.
 
DDR
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:23 pm

I keep reading about how AZ had above average costs. I would be interested to know how many hours per month an Alitalia flight attendant was scheduled to fly and what the average salary was. At my airline we average around 80 hours a month. Did their flight attendants fly less?
 
planecane
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:02 am

Was I the only one who was expecting a different picture in the article based on the thread title?
 
880dc8707
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:46 am

Maybe due to union intervention, the worst customer service I have ever encountered at FCO. Agents were sitting at the counter reading, with lines behind me cause their shift had not started. Read in the back. Our flight was delayed I knew this cause the inbound was not at the gate. Nothing posted, no information forthcoming, no help with bags to an alternate flight. Ended up with a misconnect.
 
B737MAX
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:04 am

Sad to read so much hate against those italian FA's. They have lost their job and are given new conditions that are even worse than in most low-cost carriers in Europe. I wonder how many of you have blamed Norwegian & their negative effect on conditions in the US??????

As if they were responsible for the poor management of Alitalia....
There are other EU airlines with strong unions where things work.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:10 am

B737MAX wrote:
Sad to read so much hate against those italian FA's. They have lost their job and are given new conditions that are even worse than in most low-cost carriers in Europe. I wonder how many of you have blamed Norwegian & their negative effect on conditions in the US??????

As if they were responsible for the poor management of Alitalia....
There are other EU airlines with strong unions where things work.

Have you ever flown AZ? And what about the Rome check-in experience? This is why there is no sympathy- sure the workers blame the management, but did the workers (a considerable number of whom were employed due to nepotism) ever look in the mirror and question their own behaviour? This, plus the never ending strikes is why nobody outside AZ is crying. I remember a Maltese VFR travel agency saying to me 'we use any airline except AZ- our clients have had too many bad experiences at FCO'.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Italians are great at drama. They should have created an opera!

Low labor productivity (total wage bill per million Euros of revenue, total wages per million ASKs...) isn't compatible long-term with high wage rates. Investors will put up with losses for just so long. The State isn't willing (or able, under EU regs) to subsidize the carrier indefinitely. How many times in the last two decades did Alitalia's unions fight changes to wage rates, work rules, or employment levels? A much smaller carrier is what you get.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/702 ... -alitalia/
Ryanair has only 36 employees per aircraft.
WN 81. Sorry for the simple flying link (open in incognito browser, their cookies are vicious):

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-vs-sou ... operations.

Sorry, another simple flying link showing they had 104 aircraft with over 11,000 employees or 105 employees per aircraft.
https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-2-fle ... ee-halved/

When going up against Ryanair, having 2.9x the employees per aircraft cannot be justified. Not even with long haul and maintenance.

Lightsaber
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:34 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
And that's the point. AZ was on life-support since 1997, the last time it turned a profit. The writing has been on the wall for 20+ years.

Kind of suggests the "full pay to the last day" strategy worked for 20+ years.

A lot of people collected double wages instead of LCC wages for 20+ years.

Given pensions are state funded, they will have done a lot better there than at a LCC.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:08 pm

romeokc10fe wrote:
Now this is what I call dedication, they obviously loved there jobs, reminds me of the ex-Pan Am employees that still have reunions.


https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... t-80684348


No, this is not dedication, this desperation.

Italy is has a desperate job market, where people in their 40s are considered too old to hire and where, due to the strong employee-oriented laws, laying-off employees is an almost impossible task (there are quite a few cases of employers having to go to court to prove the so-called "just cause"). I personally know quite a few ex-airline personnel (former Alitalia, Egyptair, Delta TWA, Varig) that since their last stable jobs with the airlines have been working from annual contract to annual contract, most of them freelance, if not at all. Therefore, I do understand the desperation of that woman but, unfortunately, she is not the only one. On the other hand, those employees that ha the luck of being hire by ITA could only do so with a 30% reduction of paychecks that. on average, do not hit the EUR 1,500 net (approx. $ 1,750 monthly net).
 
kalvado
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:50 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Italians are great at drama. They should have created an opera!

Low labor productivity (total wage bill per million Euros of revenue, total wages per million ASKs...) isn't compatible long-term with high wage rates. Investors will put up with losses for just so long. The State isn't willing (or able, under EU regs) to subsidize the carrier indefinitely. How many times in the last two decades did Alitalia's unions fight changes to wage rates, work rules, or employment levels? A much smaller carrier is what you get.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/702 ... -alitalia/
Ryanair has only 36 employees per aircraft.
WN 81. Sorry for the simple flying link (open in incognito browser, their cookies are vicious):

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-vs-sou ... operations.

Sorry, another simple flying link showing they had 104 aircraft with over 11,000 employees or 105 employees per aircraft.
https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-2-fle ... ee-halved/

When going up against Ryanair, having 2.9x the employees per aircraft cannot be justified. Not even with long haul and maintenance.

Lightsaber

One full flight crew for FR should be 6 people - 2 pilots + 4 FAs as a bare minimum . That is 6 crew compliments per aircraft, probably less as there are other people beyond flight crew.
I believe 5 crew compliments, for 4000 hours flying a year or so (out of 8760 hours a year) is a typical value.
SOunds to me FR has little, if any, gate agents, check-in agents, ramp crew etc. included in that number. Or they do some tweaking with how crew is accounted for?
 
IADFCO
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Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:25 am

Sorry, too late for sympathy.

They should have used that creativity to improve courtesy and attention to the customer, which left a lot to be desired (euphemism of the year). This, from a totally unscientific and totally anecdotal, but fully consistent, poll of the Italian expats, and others who often travel between Italy and the US, whom I know in the IAD area.

To the pessimists, in this and the dedicated AZ thread, I say that I agree with you, but I think that there is a one-time opportunity to get a better airline, and that opportunity is named Mario Draghi. So far he has been able to do what nobody else has been able to do before. If ITA misses this train (train... :rotfl: ), that's it.
 
F27500
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:42 pm

What a letdown ... all women .. no men :(
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:22 am

fessor wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What exactly are they protesting? That a highly unprofitable airline that survived as long as it did by skirting regulations went out of business? And now they’re trying to get FIVE years of unemployment?!

I work for an airline. I get the attachment, I’d be heartbroken to see my company cease to exist. But while many airline employees get caught up in the lifestyle/culture of working for x or y airline…you must remember it’s still a company that needs to make money to survive.


They protest because not only will many loose their job but also the salery will be cut to about the half.


Sadly based on their money losses over the years there were pat least 3 issues.
1st: Pay was to hight for the money they produced in return. Why should all other tax payers have to keep feeding money into a failed airline. no longer an option under EU laws.
2nd: To many prestige routes that lost money year after year.
3rd: failed management that would not stand up to those requiring they continue prestige routes & no flexibility by crews to allow profitability.
 
bergkampsticket
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:47 am

Quite a bit of ire on here for people peacefully protesting after losing their jobs through no fault of their own. I can't help but wonder how they'd feel in that position.
 
aamd11
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:19 am

kalvado wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Italians are great at drama. They should have created an opera!

Low labor productivity (total wage bill per million Euros of revenue, total wages per million ASKs...) isn't compatible long-term with high wage rates. Investors will put up with losses for just so long. The State isn't willing (or able, under EU regs) to subsidize the carrier indefinitely. How many times in the last two decades did Alitalia's unions fight changes to wage rates, work rules, or employment levels? A much smaller carrier is what you get.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/702 ... -alitalia/
Ryanair has only 36 employees per aircraft.
WN 81. Sorry for the simple flying link (open in incognito browser, their cookies are vicious):

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-vs-sou ... operations.

Sorry, another simple flying link showing they had 104 aircraft with over 11,000 employees or 105 employees per aircraft.
https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-2-fle ... ee-halved/

When going up against Ryanair, having 2.9x the employees per aircraft cannot be justified. Not even with long haul and maintenance.

Lightsaber

One full flight crew for FR should be 6 people - 2 pilots + 4 FAs as a bare minimum . That is 6 crew compliments per aircraft, probably less as there are other people beyond flight crew.
I believe 5 crew compliments, for 4000 hours flying a year or so (out of 8760 hours a year) is a typical value.
SOunds to me FR has little, if any, gate agents, check-in agents, ramp crew etc. included in that number. Or they do some tweaking with how crew is accounted for?

Presumably the vast majority of ground staff are outsourced, not employed directly by FR. That would keep the numbers down on a per-aircraft basis.

It’s a crude methodology, but it does allow for a bit of a comparison between different operators. If flight crew account for 30/plane at FR, and they have 36/plane, they must have relatively little overhead - office, admin, ground staff, etc. AZ might have had all those overheads, having their own staff in all those functions, which would go some way to explaining the higher numbers. Long haul will also contribute to higher numbers.

Having said all that, the AZ numbers do seem substantially higher than others. It’d be interesting to see a comparison with similar airlines… SK, IB, LX for example. Similar mix of short and long haul, etc.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:26 am

kalvado wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Italians are great at drama. They should have created an opera!

Low labor productivity (total wage bill per million Euros of revenue, total wages per million ASKs...) isn't compatible long-term with high wage rates. Investors will put up with losses for just so long. The State isn't willing (or able, under EU regs) to subsidize the carrier indefinitely. How many times in the last two decades did Alitalia's unions fight changes to wage rates, work rules, or employment levels? A much smaller carrier is what you get.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/702 ... -alitalia/
Ryanair has only 36 employees per aircraft.
WN 81. Sorry for the simple flying link (open in incognito browser, their cookies are vicious):

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-vs-sou ... operations.

Sorry, another simple flying link showing they had 104 aircraft with over 11,000 employees or 105 employees per aircraft.
https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-2-fle ... ee-halved/

When going up against Ryanair, having 2.9x the employees per aircraft cannot be justified. Not even with long haul and maintenance.

Lightsaber

One full flight crew for FR should be 6 people - 2 pilots + 4 FAs as a bare minimum . That is 6 crew compliments per aircraft, probably less as there are other people beyond flight crew.
I believe 5 crew compliments, for 4000 hours flying a year or so (out of 8760 hours a year) is a typical value.
SOunds to me FR has little, if any, gate agents, check-in agents, ramp crew etc. included in that number. Or they do some tweaking with how crew is accounted for?


The number of employees per aircraft includes all employees, not just those on the aircraft but office, frontline in terminal, operations, maintenance, ext.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3411
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:33 pm

rbavfan wrote:
kalvado wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/702 ... -alitalia/
Ryanair has only 36 employees per aircraft.
WN 81. Sorry for the simple flying link (open in incognito browser, their cookies are vicious):

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-vs-sou ... operations.

Sorry, another simple flying link showing they had 104 aircraft with over 11,000 employees or 105 employees per aircraft.
https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-2-fle ... ee-halved/

When going up against Ryanair, having 2.9x the employees per aircraft cannot be justified. Not even with long haul and maintenance.

Lightsaber

One full flight crew for FR should be 6 people - 2 pilots + 4 FAs as a bare minimum . That is 6 crew compliments per aircraft, probably less as there are other people beyond flight crew.
I believe 5 crew compliments, for 4000 hours flying a year or so (out of 8760 hours a year) is a typical value.
SOunds to me FR has little, if any, gate agents, check-in agents, ramp crew etc. included in that number. Or they do some tweaking with how crew is accounted for?


The number of employees per aircraft includes all employees, not just those on the aircraft but office, frontline in terminal, operations, maintenance, ext.

Of course; but there has to to some correlation.
If 2 agents are working the flight for 2 hours, check-in and gate, and flight is 2 hours, that is 0.33 extra employees per flying crew member. 1 hour of 3 person ramp crew - another 0.25. not sure about maintenance, but believe it cannot go up to 100 manhour daily if heavy maintenance is outsourced (and we are not talking LH technic here).
Things just don't add up to 2 non flying people per crew member.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15876
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:49 pm

The stripping down to their skin suggests has they have been stripped of dignity, pay, benefits they had expected. The reality is that Alitalia was a hot money losing mess for generations, that they just cannot compete and survive if have to follow old rules. It may be an understandable and strong way to protest, but in the end, will be worthless.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10211
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:21 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Italians are great at drama. They should have created an opera!

Low labor productivity (total wage bill per million Euros of revenue, total wages per million ASKs...) isn't compatible long-term with high wage rates. Investors will put up with losses for just so long. The State isn't willing (or able, under EU regs) to subsidize the carrier indefinitely. How many times in the last two decades did Alitalia's unions fight changes to wage rates, work rules, or employment levels? A much smaller carrier is what you get.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/702 ... -alitalia/
Ryanair has only 36 employees per aircraft.
WN 81. Sorry for the simple flying link (open in incognito browser, their cookies are vicious):

https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-vs-sou ... operations.

Sorry, another simple flying link showing they had 104 aircraft with over 11,000 employees or 105 employees per aircraft.
https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-2-fle ... ee-halved/

When going up against Ryanair, having 2.9x the employees per aircraft cannot be justified. Not even with long haul and maintenance.

Lightsaber

Thanks for taking up the mantle of my argument.

One needs to be wary of certain deficiencies of using a single metric here.

I suggested a look at the wage bill (per ASK or unit of revenue) but that doesn't take into account contracted services. (Alitalia's ongoing fight to contract out more suggests it recognized its own labor wasn't market-competitive.)

Employees per aircraft ignores gauge. It also ignores potential yield premium. It's OK to use labor to provide services if passengers are willing to pay for those services.

Rather than focusing on labor productivity it's easier to look at total cost: CASK compared to relevant competitors, and CASK to TRASK. We know CASK to TRASK has been bad: lousy margins have meant no sustainable profits. Didn't Sabena have something like just two profitable years out of 78?

Restructuring is supposed to unburden the business of uncompetitive office space contracts, gate contracts, purchased materials and services contracts... So it's really the labor and SG&A that's left. Labor did not want to be part of the restructuring.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:52 pm

bergkampsticket wrote:
Quite a bit of ire on here for people peacefully protesting after losing their jobs through no fault of their own. I can't help but wonder how they'd feel in that position.


As already pointed out above, AZ staff are a special case. It was almost impossible to be employed there unless you were sponsored or related to someone (the same is true for RAI television). The front line service was also terrible, hence why nobody on here cares (and neither do the majority of Italians who have had enough of AZ).
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1668
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: Ex-Alitalia flight attendants strip off uniforms in protest

Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:35 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
This thread has gone off topic with a lot of comments having nothing to do with former AZ flight attendants stripping in central Rome to protest losing their jobs.

Comments should be about the event: stripping. Not about the bazillion labor and management issues that eventually led to the demise of Alitalia.


That's hilarious. Nobody wants to talk about a bunch of old flight attendants walking around in their camis. But where are the pilots in their t-shirts and underwear protesting the lack of benefits?

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