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Boof02671
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AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:37 pm

These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html
 
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keesje
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:50 pm

Let's again collectively say how unacceptable this is & all condemn the villain 100x. :cloudnine:
 
texl1649
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:10 pm

Probably doesn't need to worry about that AA Gold status moving forward.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:19 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:23 pm

Once again... there needs to be a national no-fly list so these idiots never see the interior of any passenger aircraft again. :talktothehand:

Go Greyhound a-hole.
 
jeepyjeep
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:31 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Honestly, I don't see that happening. My local sports venue (Ball Arena, in DEN) is going to require proof of vaccination and/or a negative COVID test to enter, starting next month. And even with that requirement, they are still going to require masks at all times, and apparently this is based on guidance from the CDC and local health departments (although it is not a rule that they -MUST- require masks; Denver and/or Colorado has no blanket mask requirement right now, although some of the counties have them but not Denver). So I doubt we would see mask-less flights even if everyone is vaccinated.

Either way, this incident is unacceptable. I hate flying with a mask as well, so rather than boarding a flight, getting agitated, and hitting someone, I've just been flying less often since I don't enjoy the experience.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:37 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:41 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

No, you have no right to physically assault an employee of an airline from a country where the Federal Government has mandated wearing a mask. If you cannot abide by rules governing an activity you're participating in, then you have no reason to participate in said activity.
 
CBBW
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:46 pm

The fact that there are people implicitly blaming masks for violent criminality is disgusting.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:49 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


I don't understand why the mask rule, in particular, foments such violence. The social contract has always been that if you want to fly, you have to follow the rules. I expect there are plenty of gun owners who would like to carry on board, but that's not permitted either.
 
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OA412
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:46 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.
 
kalvado
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:54 pm

OA412 wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?
 
tootallsd
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:55 pm

John Wayne is in Orange County, a real hot bed of anti-vaccination, anti mask activity in California. I was not surprised. I do feel that if the Transportation SAFETY Administration needs to step. There needs to be a system (database) that is essentially a national no-fly list that is used universally by airlines in the territorial United States. As we have a presumption of innocence imbedded in our system of law, there will need to be a method to provide redress -- but people should not have fear for their safety when working or traveling. Some of the antics that I see on youtube and other media are unacceptable.
 
subramak1
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:58 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:02 pm

kalvado wrote:
OA412 wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:

Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people?

Just a thought.

This! People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.

Simple problem is that humans - are just that, humans, one of apes species, and they don't always act rationally.
I don't know why masks cause so much stress - oxygen deprivation due to airflow restriction in a low-pressure environment seems a plausible contributing factor. If that is the case, people will be getting stressed on a plane and will act weird. You can discipline people all you want - this will not work.
The way things are explained in general safety class, engineering mitigation measures usually work best. Is there a way to increase oxygen content in the cabin? I can think of reduced altitude with pressurization running full differential. Less air recirculation. Maybe something else?

Yes, this will increase fuel burn. Is it more expensive than diverting the plane, though?


I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation. Anecdotal but every time I’ve flown with masks, I’ve arrived headachy, more tired and dehydrated.
 
2175301
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:04 pm

CBBW wrote:
The fact that there are people implicitly blaming masks for violent criminality is disgusting.


Nothing new about that. Just replace the "mask" word with another word "gun"; and you see it all the time.

Back to the incident: I have no idea if this incident involved masks, alcohol, or other reasons.

What I do find amazing is all the people who think that they have "Absolute" rights and freedoms. There has never been absolute rights and freedom's in the USA. Every right and freedom comes with responsibilities and limits - even the US Supreme Court has said so many times. The alternative to those responsibilities and limits (and I'm quoting the US Supreme Court) is "anarchy."
Last edited by 2175301 on Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:06 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


A vaccine rule where vaccinations are required to fly would make sense, but that would require a federal mandate and perhaps that will happen, but simply removing the mask rule is caving to indescribable stupidity.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:06 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


So adults who agreed to a contract of carriage when they purchased a ticket don't have to take responsibility for their immature actions? Interesting.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation.


If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:
 
2175301
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:12 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation.


If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:


The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.
 
alfa164
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:28 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers. Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Perhaps morons should realise they need to wear their masks when flying, put them on when asked, and not punch people? Just a thought.


:checkmark: . . I don't know why that is so hard to understand. It is also interesting to see the same groups who claim, "Guns don't kill people - people do!" are now shouting, "Masks cause violence!"


OA412 wrote:
People need to stop acting like babies simply because they're being asked to wear a mask. It's been the case for well over a year. We all know that to fly, we're going to have to comply with the mask mandate. If you can't or won't do that (unless you have a documented disability that makes mask wearing impossible), don't fly. Pretty simple.


:checkmark: :checkmark:


CBBW wrote:
The fact that there are people implicitly blaming masks for violent criminality is disgusting.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . . These are probably the same people who once claimed, "The dog ate my homework..."


;)
 
astaz
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:37 pm

tootallsd wrote:
John Wayne is in Orange County, a real hot bed of anti-vaccination, anti mask activity in California. I was not surprised. I do feel that if the Transportation SAFETY Administration needs to step. There needs to be a system (database) that is essentially a national no-fly list that is used universally by airlines in the territorial United States. As we have a presumption of innocence imbedded in our system of law, there will need to be a method to provide redress -- but people should not have fear for their safety when working or traveling. Some of the antics that I see on youtube and other media are unacceptable.


Transportation SECURITY Administration.
 
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OA412
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:47 pm

2175301 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation.


If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:


The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Correct. The idea that masks cut off blood oxygen or increase your CO2 levels has been debunked. As stated, if it were true, we'd have seen the effects in surgeons years ago.
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:52 pm

A couple of things...

I've been on over 100 flights since masked where required to fly and I fly probably a dozen times or more per month. Sure, at first it wasn't that comfortable but after a while I just don't even think about it. it's not that big of a deal. I agree with creating a common no-fly list that applies to all carriers. Maybe not lifetime, but enough to get people's attention. Then....

Promote the hell out of it in any way possible. Hell, it's already since the media jumps over every mask incident AFTER it happens. I'm about a mile from SNA and three news choppers where hovering for over an hour just to the west of KSNA to report on it - even though they took the guy off at DEN.
 
seat1a
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:52 pm

Maybe Pucci can restart the assembly line for bubble helmets a la Braniff for everyone! Random thought.
 
planecane
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:57 pm

subramak1 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html



Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:59 pm

The time has come for airlines to work together and build a database of distruptive passengers, spread the cost of the system between them.it must be cheaper than a couple of diverts over a year. I don't see this problem going away anytime soon sadly. My :twocents:
Hope the FA recovers soon.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:07 pm

planecane wrote:
I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."


That is likely to be psychosomatic unless you have low respiratory function to begin with. Surgeons deal just fine and they are masked up sometimes 10+ hours at a time.
 
travaz
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:09 pm

I don't like wearing a mask. I am fully aware to fly I have to. If I am getting on an aircraft I am going to be the type that gets to my seat and sits down and maybe catch a snooze. If an FA wakes me up to ask me to put my mask back up because it slipped down, I am going to say that I am sorry and replace the mask and not say one other word. I would never think about giving the FA attitude because it's rude and childish behavior. I am not sure its mask that causes this behavior,(contributing factor? Yes) just take a look on social media and see the incredible amount of assaults on fast food workers, (lack of chicken nuggets is not a crisis that warrants assaults), Retail workers, Bus Drivers and many others. Most of these are presented on Social Media as comedy or something "cool". I get on an airplane because I want or need to get to point B, not because I want to experience the miracle of flight. I live in PHX and now instead of flying to LAS or LAX I drive. That is my method of not having to comply with the Airplane mask mandate certainly not beating an innocent Employee doing what they are told to do. Assaults should be prosecuted vigorously no matter where they take place. IMHO the root cause of Airplane violence is the degradation of societal behavior in general. Wear the dang mask, sit down, shut up and act like a grown adult. My Dad always said "You can catch more fly's with honey than vinegar"
 
11C
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:10 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
These air rage incidents are getting out of control. The FAA and FBI need to get tough on these clowns.

She was punched twice over the passenger not wearing his masks and her nose was broken and she was taken to the hospital.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... masks.html





Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


The reason for a mask rule has to be based on the advice of the medical personnel entrusted to give such advice, not on the behavioral challenges of our addled citizenry. Some real enforcement would possibly help.
 
11C
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:14 pm

planecane wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.


I hope it goes away soon, also. But I hope you are voicing your objections to those who make the rule, not those who enforce it. Otherwise, you are just being another obtuse, angry traveler, ratcheting up the stress on everyone around you.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:16 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
planecane wrote:
I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."


That is likely to be psychosomatic unless you have low respiratory function to begin with. Surgeons deal just fine and they are masked up sometimes 10+ hours at a time.


Most aren’t at 8,000’ either or in otherwise poor health, depressed, have anger issues. I’ve flown some with the masks, it’s bearable, I’m not punching people out, but it might just be the marginal issue that puts some people over the edge. We’ve argued that on other threads. Masking does make me think driving is preferable at times. I’m going to Florida for a few shoots this winter, likely drive rather than fly. The cons of flying start to be offset by the pros of driving even with the considerable cons of driving down 95.
 
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American 767
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:26 pm

Poor FA. She is doing her job ensuring the safety of everyone on board and this moron punches her. She is professional, she is there to look for the safety of every passenger. The offender should be banned from flying American Airlines for ever.

About three months ago I was flying from JFK to CDG. After dinner was finished, I forgot to put my mask back on. I was about to fall asleep when a Flight Attendant passed by and reminded me to put my mask on. I did, right away, and I did not argue. That was the best I could do. It was a mistake on my side and I admitted it. She was 100% right. She was there for my safety, and that of everyone else on the plane.
 
Cdydatzigs
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:31 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule.


Or perhaps we should not cave to violent idiots who don't understand why masks are required currently in the first place. If you're the type that gets so violent you punch a flight attendant for asking you repeatedly to follow the rules, you shouldn't be buying tickets to fly on commercial airliners to begin with.
 
subramak1
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Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:33 pm

planecane wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.


I dont like wearing masks either, however I understand why we need them and I do know they are effective.

There was a case in Missouri where two hairdressers had COVID but did not realize and treated over 140 customers. Not one of their customers got COVID, the haridressers had their masks on, which prevented spread of COVID. Why does COVID transmission come down when mask mandates are instituted, masks are highly effective at reducing covid transmission. Assume a situation you were an asymptomatic COVID and not wearing a mask. You essentially become an unwitting spreader.

I will keep wearing masks in any crowded setting until this pandemic becomes endemic and reduces in intensity. It is a safe choice and has proven to be highly effective.

Lastly, I respect your decision to be civil about this.

Returning to topic, there should be national no fly, no public transport list for such people in US.

Best, Subramanian
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:43 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
planecane wrote:
I deal with it while flying because of the drastic increase in convenience to fly vs. drive to my destinations which are always 1000+ miles from home but I am made very uncomfortable wearing a mask on an aircraft. I get a headache almost every time and just don't feel "right."


That is likely to be psychosomatic unless you have low respiratory function to begin with. Surgeons deal just fine and they are masked up sometimes 10+ hours at a time.


Most aren’t at 8,000’ either or in otherwise poor health, depressed, have anger issues. I’ve flown some with the masks, it’s bearable, I’m not punching people out, but it might just be the marginal issue that puts some people over the edge. We’ve argued that on other threads. Masking does make me think driving is preferable at times. I’m going to Florida for a few shoots this winter, likely drive rather than fly. The cons of flying start to be offset by the pros of driving even with the considerable cons of driving down 95.


Anger issues, narcissism and immaturity are the toxic mix. Throw in preflight alkie and drugs and bad day for everyone. Masks have no actual effect on serum oxygen levels.

https://www.uhhospitals.org/Healthy-at- ... gen-intake
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23383
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:58 pm

subramak1 wrote:
planecane wrote:
subramak1 wrote:

Masks are required as even vaccinated people can contract the virus and carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people. People need to accept masking, how different is it from wearing seat belts in cars or airplanes?

US is probably an outlier in the developed world in this behavior.

Subramanian

It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.


I dont like wearing masks either, however I understand why we need them and I do know they are effective.

There was a case in Missouri where two hairdressers had COVID but did not realize and treated over 140 customers. Not one of their customers got COVID, the haridressers had their masks on, which prevented spread of COVID. Why does COVID transmission come down when mask mandates are instituted, masks are highly effective at reducing covid transmission. Assume a situation you were an asymptomatic COVID and not wearing a mask. You essentially become an unwitting spreader.

I will keep wearing masks in any crowded setting until this pandemic becomes endemic and reduces in intensity. It is a safe choice and has proven to be highly effective.

Lastly, I respect your decision to be civil about this.

Returning to topic, there should be national no fly, no public transport list for such people in US.

Best, Subramanian

Mostly to others:
Masks have been proven to reduce the growth rate of the virus. Since we just came off full hospitals, perhaps we should wear them?
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/41790 ... ks-prevent


recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.


We still have hospitals going to capacity (I know numerous people with delayed other care due hospital staff shortages:
https://www.wsmv.com/news/us_world_news ... 1.amp.html

https://bangordailynews.com/2021/10/26/ ... oasq1i29i/

My relative in a hospital in Colorado has perpetually full critical care and ICUs. They only have two vaccinated patients and one is a cancer patient (unlikely to build immunity) and the other so old... The other 42 are unvaccinated with many unvaccinated sent home with oxygen, a pulse oxygen meter, medicines, and instructions on when to call an ambulance.

I personally cannot stand wearing a mask, but I know it mostly protects others and has a small chance of protecting me. Note: uncovered noses is basically not wearing a mask.

The two hairdressers are a great example of how a mask stops Covid19 at the source (droplets).

Assaulting a FA over a known requirement to reduce risk to others: permanent no-fly.

Lightsaber
 
kalvado
Posts: 3593
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:05 pm

2175301 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I can’t find the studies, but I’d agree wearing masks reduce blood oxygen saturation.


If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:


The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X
In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 23383
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:08 pm

BTW, the next global wave has started, its obvious another round of the sine curve (about a 120 day period):
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... ID_WRL~BFA

By my estimate, in about 45 days hospitals will fill up again and the cycle repeats. Be responsible for others, wear a mask.

Lightsaber
 
kalvado
Posts: 3593
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
BTW, the next global wave has started, its obvious another round of the sine curve (about a 120 day period):
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... ID_WRL~BFA

By my estimate, in about 45 days hospitals will fill up again and the cycle repeats. Be responsible for others, wear a mask.

Lightsaber


Question is not whether mask is a good idea from virus spread perspective - certainly it is.
Question much more appropriate for a forum like this is if there is a way airlines can better accommodate masks in terms of passenger comfort.
It was bad on some planes even before masks; for example 777 without individual vents are just the hell in the sky.
So industry has a choice of enduring the cluster- for years to come; enduring same cluster while banning pax left and right as people suggest on this forum; or finding some solutions.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:32 pm

Most of these that I hear about seem to involve mask wearing rules. There's an easy solution: end the mask mandate.

I'm in no way supporting hooligans nor their insanity. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But... The mask wearing seems to be the thing that is setting people off. And, airlines are sometimes contradictory in how they enforce the mask mandate, further putting fliers on edge. At this point, the people who want to be vaccinated are, the people who don't aren't. Perhaps its time to just get back to living our lives. Wear a mask or don't, make it one's own personal choice. I can already be around hundreds of my closest "friends" at the local Wal-Mart and not have to wear a mask, or at the local gym, or the neighborhood McDonald's. Our politicians don't feel the need to wear masks in public and obey their own mandates. Just the other day, President Biden walked through crowds of people indoors in Virginia shaking hands, coughing, and all without a mask.

So... Why are we requiring them on airplanes again?
 
2175301
Posts: 2246
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:36 pm

kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

If that were actually the case, surgical theatre malpractice would consistently be sky-high. :scratchchin:


The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X
In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....


Airliners have much better airflow than most movie theaters and various conference and entertainment venues.

I call BS on your claim that there is increased CO2 above normal levels in airliners.

Surgical and N95 mask do not affect the concentration of oxygen or CO2 (or anything else) in your lungs at normal physical level of activities.

Guess what. I find pants, shoes and socks uncomfortable as well; and there are studies that show that that shoes and socks often reduce circulation to the skin and a tight belt can cause other issues. Yet, I and billions of other people put up with those discomforts ever day.

If someone has degraded lung function they should be flying with Oxygen or traveling by other means. Note I have seen at least 6 people on Oxygen wearing masks this summer. The masks do not interfere with the oxygen supply.
 
User avatar
TK787
Posts: 4899
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:43 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:36 pm

jfklganyc wrote:

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying

Just lost two people under 50 years old to COVID today, fully vaccinated.
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 698
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:43 pm

jeepyjeep wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Honestly, I don't see that happening. My local sports venue (Ball Arena, in DEN) is going to require proof of vaccination and/or a negative COVID test to enter, starting next month. And even with that requirement, they are still going to require masks at all times, and apparently this is based on guidance from the CDC and local health departments (although it is not a rule that they -MUST- require masks; Denver and/or Colorado has no blanket mask requirement right now, although some of the counties have them but not Denver). So I doubt we would see mask-less flights even if everyone is vaccinated.

Either way, this incident is unacceptable. I hate flying with a mask as well, so rather than boarding a flight, getting agitated, and hitting someone, I've just been flying less often since I don't enjoy the experience.
 
sprxUSA
Posts: 698
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:17 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:45 pm

jeepyjeep wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps it’s time to rethink the mask rule. It is bringing about violence incidents against my fellow crewmembers.

Put a vaccine rule in place and end the mask mandate and hopefully people will be a little less on edge while flying


Honestly, I don't see that happening. My local sports venue (Ball Arena, in DEN) is going to require proof of vaccination and/or a negative COVID test to enter, starting next month. And even with that requirement, they are still going to require masks at all times, and apparently this is based on guidance from the CDC and local health departments (although it is not a rule that they -MUST- require masks; Denver and/or Colorado has no blanket mask requirement right now, although some of the counties have them but not Denver). So I doubt we would see mask-less flights even if everyone is vaccinated.

Either way, this incident is unacceptable. I hate flying with a mask as well, so rather than boarding a flight, getting agitated, and hitting someone, I've just been flying less often since I don't enjoy the experience.


Just a clarification. On thr Ball Arena site, eff 11/10, need vaccine proof OR negative test within 72 hours. There is no 'and' associated with them.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3593
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:47 pm

2175301 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
2175301 wrote:

The studies in question were for very intense physical activities where you have to breath hard and fast (example I cannot wear a mask when exercising hard on a treadmill - it interferes with actual breathing: Note - I did try though...).

OSHA and even the recently adopted Federal Contractor Mandates for Covid-19 allow for mask exemptions for people performing such physically exerting activities.

There is no reduction in blood oxygen saturation for people doing sedentary and normal activities.

Add reduced ambient pressure and increased CO2 concentration to the list.
A semi-random research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 231830009X
In summary, temperature and CO2 concentration have significant influence on mental performance of subjects in aircraft cabin environment,

So a mask can be just the last straw....


Airliners have much better airflow than most movie theaters and various conference and entertainment venues.

I call BS on your claim that there is increased CO2 above normal levels in airliners.

Surgical and N95 mask do not affect the concentration of oxygen or CO2 (or anything else) in your lungs at normal physical level of activities.

Guess what. I find pants, shoes and socks uncomfortable as well; and there are studies that show that that shoes and socks often reduce circulation to the skin and a tight belt can cause other issues. Yet, I and billions of other people put up with those discomforts ever day.

If someone has degraded lung function they should be flying with Oxygen or traveling by other means. Note I have seen at least 6 people on Oxygen wearing masks this summer. The masks do not interfere with the oxygen supply.

As for CO2... Zis iz sajens!
https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4310/8/1/15
Up to 4000 ppm - nominally OK for a healthy person, level associated with headaches, sleepiness, and stagnant, stale, stuffy air. Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart rate and slight nausea may also be present.
Actual concentrations - in days of much cheaper fuel - go above 1000 ppm:
https://inspectapedia.com/indoor_air_qu ... ng-Lee.pdf
level associated with complaints of drowsiness and poor air.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4670
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:15 pm

I am so sick of this garbage! I'm not a tough guy or anything, but I fly alot for my job. I have had to step in twice now this year to assist a flight crew member on this exact issue. Literally had to get up and stand in front of the flight attendant and tell the passenger they need to comply. I figured I would prefer to take the punch instead if it was coming. I will never ever just sit idle if something like this happens.

I do believe the laws for assaulting a crew member should be a federal offense.

Maybe it's time to include firm warnings during the safety briefing and include the fact that harsh federal penalties will happen if someone touches a crew member?

And lastly. I agree with others. These clowns should be put on a permanent no fly list on every single airline.
 
ozark1
Posts: 919
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:19 pm

travaz wrote:
I don't like wearing a mask. I am fully aware to fly I have to. If I am getting on an aircraft I am going to be the type that gets to my seat and sits down and maybe catch a snooze. If an FA wakes me up to ask me to put my mask back up because it slipped down, I am going to say that I am sorry and replace the mask and not say one other word. I would never think about giving the FA attitude because it's rude and childish behavior. I am not sure its mask that causes this behavior,(contributing factor? Yes) just take a look on social media and see the incredible amount of assaults on fast food workers, (lack of chicken nuggets is not a crisis that warrants assaults), Retail workers, Bus Drivers and many others. Most of these are presented on Social Media as comedy or something "cool". I get on an airplane because I want or need to get to point B, not because I want to experience the miracle of flight. I live in PHX and now instead of flying to LAS or LAX I drive. That is my method of not having to comply with the Airplane mask mandate certainly not beating an innocent Employee doing what they are told to do. Assaults should be prosecuted vigorously no matter where they take place. IMHO the root cause of Airplane violence is the degradation of societal behavior in general. Wear the dang mask, sit down, shut up and act like a grown adult. My Dad always said "You can catch more fly's with honey than vinegar"

I really like your post. Flight attendants HATE having to enforce this rule. They have no idea what level of response they are going to receive. Your response is the way to go. I hope AA supports the f/a in a lawsuit and bans them for life. The classy passenger says “ whoops, im sorry” and puts the mask back in place.
 
planecane
Posts: 1760
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:42 pm

lightsaber wrote:
subramak1 wrote:
planecane wrote:
It is quite different from wearing seatbelts. The seatbelt doesn't make it difficult or uncomfortable to do a life sustaining activity such as breathing. If whatever mask you are wearing isn't providing a noticeable restriction and making it more difficult to breath then it isn't likely to stop many viral particles. Also, seatbelts provide a demonstrable and drastic safety improvement in specific situations.

So no, people don't "need" to accept masking. We have to deal with it while the rule is in place because if we don't we can get banned from the airline. I do not condone anybody assaulting an FA nor disobeying the rule. There are multiple notices in writing and verbally prior to boarding that let you know that masks are required. If you can't deal with it then don't board. That said, I am 100% against the requirement. I'll continue to use civilized and legal means to voice my objections and hope that the rule is dropped as soon as possible.


I dont like wearing masks either, however I understand why we need them and I do know they are effective.

There was a case in Missouri where two hairdressers had COVID but did not realize and treated over 140 customers. Not one of their customers got COVID, the haridressers had their masks on, which prevented spread of COVID. Why does COVID transmission come down when mask mandates are instituted, masks are highly effective at reducing covid transmission. Assume a situation you were an asymptomatic COVID and not wearing a mask. You essentially become an unwitting spreader.

I will keep wearing masks in any crowded setting until this pandemic becomes endemic and reduces in intensity. It is a safe choice and has proven to be highly effective.

Lastly, I respect your decision to be civil about this.

Returning to topic, there should be national no fly, no public transport list for such people in US.

Best, Subramanian

Mostly to others:
Masks have been proven to reduce the growth rate of the virus. Since we just came off full hospitals, perhaps we should wear them?
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/41790 ... ks-prevent


recent study published in Health Affairs, for example, compared the COVID-19 growth rate before and after mask mandates in 15 states and the District of Columbia. It found that mask mandates led to a slowdown in daily COVID-19 growth rate, which became more apparent over time. The first five days after a mandate, the daily growth rate slowed by 0.9 percentage-points compared to the five days prior to the mandate; at three weeks, the daily growth rate had slowed by 2 percentage-points.


We still have hospitals going to capacity (I know numerous people with delayed other care due hospital staff shortages:
https://www.wsmv.com/news/us_world_news ... 1.amp.html

https://bangordailynews.com/2021/10/26/ ... oasq1i29i/

My relative in a hospital in Colorado has perpetually full critical care and ICUs. They only have two vaccinated patients and one is a cancer patient (unlikely to build immunity) and the other so old... The other 42 are unvaccinated with many unvaccinated sent home with oxygen, a pulse oxygen meter, medicines, and instructions on when to call an ambulance.

I personally cannot stand wearing a mask, but I know it mostly protects others and has a small chance of protecting me. Note: uncovered noses is basically not wearing a mask.

The two hairdressers are a great example of how a mask stops Covid19 at the source (droplets).

Assaulting a FA over a known requirement to reduce risk to others: permanent no-fly.

Lightsaber


The hairdressers aren't really a great example. Maybe they just weren't carrying a very high viral load and weren't that contagious. Long before vaccine availability my accountant's wife got COVID. It was very early on and she was symptomatic for several days before realizing that is what it might be. During that time, she was sleeping in the same bed with her husband. He didn't catch COVID nor did anybody else in the household. Some people are simply more contagious than others. Do we know that there were no masked hairdressers who did spread COVID?

I'm not trying to get into a debate about mask effectiveness. I was simply responding to the ridiculous analogy people make to seatbelts and relating my experience of discomfort. It isn't "no big deal" to everybody to wear one.
 
arfbool
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:02 am

Re: AA FA punched in the nose by passenger. Flight diverted

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:12 pm

The local news radio (1070 AM) reported this but didn’t mention masking. They said the passenger was bumped by a food cart and went to the galley to retaliate.

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