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twoaislesforme
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:02 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:08 pm

24 cancellations today. Much better but still a lot, but I suppose AA will see this as a normal day
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:38 am

IADCA wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
alasizon wrote:

Not a single flight outside of the 28th when DFW had weather was cancelled for weather when it was actually a lack of crew. AA didn't try to hide their cancels behind a weather/ATC code (like WN did).

And we aren't talking about "some wind" we are talking about 40-60 knot cross winds and an arrival rate 20% of normal, show me any major airport that can get through that with only minor delays and few cancellations.

The DFW weather was just the overwhelming event that broke the camel's back, there were already going to be cancels without the weather as FAs were simply out of hours and all reserves had been exhausted in some bases but it would have been maybe a total of 150 for the entire weekend, nowhere near the same magnitude. Due to the DFW weather, there were plenty of diversions to SAT/AUS/OKC, etc. and delays in upline cities which added time on to FA's duty day causing them to go illegal mid trip with no available replacement. They continue to finish the trip to the extent possible but to use your example, if an FA was scheduled SFO-PHX-DFW-PIT-(RON)ORD and the PHX-DFW leg was delayed by 5 hours and then enroute diverts to SAT for winds, the FAs may no longer be legal for DFW-PIT-ORD and so those flights cancel due to lack of FAs. That then snowballs to the next day for the flights that FA was supposed to take out of ORD as the FA is still in DFW. Multiply that by a couple thousand and that is basically what happened to start it off and then all the cancelled flights left even more crew out of place.

AA's contract with their FAs limits the FAs to a maximum of 30 hours for lineholders (35 for reserves) in any given 7 day period so added flight legs and time don't go well especially at the end of the month where things are always going to be less flexible.



Thank you for this! It’s amazing what happens when someone actually thinks through what’s happening without jumping on a bandwagon of this or that.
Issues pulled up one after another and there you have a perfect storm that got AA. I doubt they could have properly handled this EVEN if they knew about it and this has nothing to do with having a too lean schedule.


I don't know how you can read what he posted and think that means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule." The gist of the post is that yes, it was a big weather event, but that because the schedule was too tight they were already at the point of cancelling 40 flights/day for lack of crew availability even if everything went perfectly.

That left absolutely zero staff to cover if there were IRROPS anywhere. That condition existed for 3 days at the end of the month - meaning, approximately 10% of the month. I don't know how you can read a post that makes very clear that a single adverse weather event - yes, a bad one - at a single hub of a multi-airline hub caused hundreds of cancellations per day because of a lack of crew, which was in turn caused by a schedule, and think it means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule."

If that same weather event happened today, it would be a mess for one day. It would be a mess for no more than one day because crew have hours available this month to fix it. That was not the case at the end of the month last month...because of AA's scheduling left not enough staff hours in reserve. In other words, the fact that it was a multi-day meltdown had everything to do with that "too lean schedule."


And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.
 
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United787
Posts: 3016
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:03 am

United sent out an email today which seems in direct response to what is happening at AA:


I've heard from many of you in the past few weeks and I know you're eager to return to travel — especially around the holidays. Many of you have asked if you can book with confidence on United this holiday season. And the short answer is, yes you can!

That's because we've taken a unique approach to the complexity of rebuilding an airline in the midst of a pandemic:

• After dramatically cutting our schedule at the start of the pandemic, we knew it would be really hard to try and bring it all back at once. That's why we gradually added flights over time. Our North Star in this recovery is making sure we do the right thing for customers and if that means sacrificing some possible short-term profits to ensure a reliable operation, then so be it.

• Instead of furloughing pilots, we were the only airline that negotiated a deal with our union that kept 100% of our pilots employed and ready to fly as the recovery gets underway. That's allowed us to avoid staffing shortages.

• The way we've run our operation has had an impact on the environment on board our aircraft. I'm so proud of our Flight Attendants and the job they've done to de-escalate the small number of situations where bad behaviors occur — we now have less than one mask incident per 100,000 passengers, down over 50% since the start of the year.

• We continued to invest in technology to make travel easier for customers. The United App and United.com has information you need to get ready, including features for verifying your testing and vaccine records before you get to the airport, and easy ways to see, use or combine travel credits to book your next flight. If things don't go as scheduled, you can talk or chat with our agents live on your phone with Agent on Demand and you can rest easy as our Connection Saver Tool helps thousands of people make tight connections every day.

• We eliminated policies that historically got in the way of delivering great service — we got rid of change fees forever,* as just one example.

• We successfully completed our vaccine requirements early, before there was a government directive. I know that some don't support vaccine requirements, including some of our people and some of you receiving this note. But at United, we did it because we knew it was the right thing to do from a safety perspective, and as an airline, that's our highest priority. This vaccine requirement issue is now in the rear-view mirror for us and allows us to focus on taking care of our customers.

• In our airports and on board our aircraft, our employees are amazing and have taken customer service to an entirely new level — we see that in our customer data, but I hope you see it on board when you fly because that's our real measure of success. Our people are proud of our airline and they want to deliver for you.

United saw the pandemic as an opportunity to change for the better and our team is working hard to make that happen. We won't be perfect and winter weather always impacts some flights, but the bottom line is that our team is ready and eager to welcome you back this holiday season and beyond. We ramped up our December schedule with extra trips to sun and ski destinations, announced the largest transatlantic expansion in our history, and by next Spring, we'll offer 22 flights per day to London.

So yes, you can book with confidence on United.

Take care and I look forward to seeing you on board soon.
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:22 am

United787 wrote:
United sent out an email today which seems in direct response to what is happening at AA:


I've heard from many of you in the past few weeks and I know you're eager to return to travel — especially around the holidays. Many of you have asked if you can book with confidence on United this holiday season. And the short answer is, yes you can!

That's because we've taken a unique approach to the complexity of rebuilding an airline in the midst of a pandemic:

• After dramatically cutting our schedule at the start of the pandemic, we knew it would be really hard to try and bring it all back at once. That's why we gradually added flights over time. Our North Star in this recovery is making sure we do the right thing for customers and if that means sacrificing some possible short-term profits to ensure a reliable operation, then so be it.

• Instead of furloughing pilots, we were the only airline that negotiated a deal with our union that kept 100% of our pilots employed and ready to fly as the recovery gets underway. That's allowed us to avoid staffing shortages.

• The way we've run our operation has had an impact on the environment on board our aircraft. I'm so proud of our Flight Attendants and the job they've done to de-escalate the small number of situations where bad behaviors occur — we now have less than one mask incident per 100,000 passengers, down over 50% since the start of the year.

• We continued to invest in technology to make travel easier for customers. The United App and United.com has information you need to get ready, including features for verifying your testing and vaccine records before you get to the airport, and easy ways to see, use or combine travel credits to book your next flight. If things don't go as scheduled, you can talk or chat with our agents live on your phone with Agent on Demand and you can rest easy as our Connection Saver Tool helps thousands of people make tight connections every day.

• We eliminated policies that historically got in the way of delivering great service — we got rid of change fees forever,* as just one example.

• We successfully completed our vaccine requirements early, before there was a government directive. I know that some don't support vaccine requirements, including some of our people and some of you receiving this note. But at United, we did it because we knew it was the right thing to do from a safety perspective, and as an airline, that's our highest priority. This vaccine requirement issue is now in the rear-view mirror for us and allows us to focus on taking care of our customers.

• In our airports and on board our aircraft, our employees are amazing and have taken customer service to an entirely new level — we see that in our customer data, but I hope you see it on board when you fly because that's our real measure of success. Our people are proud of our airline and they want to deliver for you.

United saw the pandemic as an opportunity to change for the better and our team is working hard to make that happen. We won't be perfect and winter weather always impacts some flights, but the bottom line is that our team is ready and eager to welcome you back this holiday season and beyond. We ramped up our December schedule with extra trips to sun and ski destinations, announced the largest transatlantic expansion in our history, and by next Spring, we'll offer 22 flights per day to London.

So yes, you can book with confidence on United.

Take care and I look forward to seeing you on board soon.



Talk about not missing an opportunity lol UA kicked while it was hot and man
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:35 am

Rookie87 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:


Thank you for this! It’s amazing what happens when someone actually thinks through what’s happening without jumping on a bandwagon of this or that.
Issues pulled up one after another and there you have a perfect storm that got AA. I doubt they could have properly handled this EVEN if they knew about it and this has nothing to do with having a too lean schedule.


I don't know how you can read what he posted and think that means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule." The gist of the post is that yes, it was a big weather event, but that because the schedule was too tight they were already at the point of cancelling 40 flights/day for lack of crew availability even if everything went perfectly.

That left absolutely zero staff to cover if there were IRROPS anywhere. That condition existed for 3 days at the end of the month - meaning, approximately 10% of the month. I don't know how you can read a post that makes very clear that a single adverse weather event - yes, a bad one - at a single hub of a multi-airline hub caused hundreds of cancellations per day because of a lack of crew, which was in turn caused by a schedule, and think it means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule."

If that same weather event happened today, it would be a mess for one day. It would be a mess for no more than one day because crew have hours available this month to fix it. That was not the case at the end of the month last month...because of AA's scheduling left not enough staff hours in reserve. In other words, the fact that it was a multi-day meltdown had everything to do with that "too lean schedule."


And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.

If you're running out of crews before the end of the month because, and this is by your definition, IROPS and sick calls, during a historically slower period even during COVID, then you're operating a schedule that can't match what you need to protect it - in other words: lean. As your name implies, this is a rookie mistake on AA's part. It takes a lot of reserve pilots and flight attendants to run an airline. More than you probably realize.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2469
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:06 am

Rookie87 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:


Thank you for this! It’s amazing what happens when someone actually thinks through what’s happening without jumping on a bandwagon of this or that.
Issues pulled up one after another and there you have a perfect storm that got AA. I doubt they could have properly handled this EVEN if they knew about it and this has nothing to do with having a too lean schedule.


I don't know how you can read what he posted and think that means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule." The gist of the post is that yes, it was a big weather event, but that because the schedule was too tight they were already at the point of cancelling 40 flights/day for lack of crew availability even if everything went perfectly.

That left absolutely zero staff to cover if there were IRROPS anywhere. That condition existed for 3 days at the end of the month - meaning, approximately 10% of the month. I don't know how you can read a post that makes very clear that a single adverse weather event - yes, a bad one - at a single hub of a multi-airline hub caused hundreds of cancellations per day because of a lack of crew, which was in turn caused by a schedule, and think it means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule."

If that same weather event happened today, it would be a mess for one day. It would be a mess for no more than one day because crew have hours available this month to fix it. That was not the case at the end of the month last month...because of AA's scheduling left not enough staff hours in reserve. In other words, the fact that it was a multi-day meltdown had everything to do with that "too lean schedule."


And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.


It's not like this was a bad month for IRROPS before that windstorm. COVID is not an excuse at this point. It is obvious that COVID is going to cause more people to need sick time. Has for a while, will for a while.

If that month caused them to run out of reserve hours before month-end, leaving no slack for any further IRROPS at all over four days, that means they are scheduled way too leanly. And that scheduling - not the predictable sickness issues (which, by the way, every airline is facing, including AA's own regionals, which managed the end of the month fine) and moderate IRROPS issues prior to the DFW circus - is why they had no reserves left over.

Look, I like AA. I fly them - OK, mostly their regionals - several times a month. But it's hard not to call this one what it was.
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:28 pm

stlAV8R wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

I don't know how you can read what he posted and think that means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule." The gist of the post is that yes, it was a big weather event, but that because the schedule was too tight they were already at the point of cancelling 40 flights/day for lack of crew availability even if everything went perfectly.

That left absolutely zero staff to cover if there were IRROPS anywhere. That condition existed for 3 days at the end of the month - meaning, approximately 10% of the month. I don't know how you can read a post that makes very clear that a single adverse weather event - yes, a bad one - at a single hub of a multi-airline hub caused hundreds of cancellations per day because of a lack of crew, which was in turn caused by a schedule, and think it means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule."

If that same weather event happened today, it would be a mess for one day. It would be a mess for no more than one day because crew have hours available this month to fix it. That was not the case at the end of the month last month...because of AA's scheduling left not enough staff hours in reserve. In other words, the fact that it was a multi-day meltdown had everything to do with that "too lean schedule."


And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.

If you're running out of crews before the end of the month because, and this is by your definition, IROPS and sick calls, during a historically slower period even during COVID, then you're operating a schedule that can't match what you need to protect it - in other words: lean. As your name implies, this is a rookie mistake on AA's part. It takes a lot of reserve pilots and flight attendants to run an airline. More than you probably realize.


So by your logic if let’s say a third of your crew scheduled to work call in sick, then the ones called to replace them also call in sick AND the ones who actually show up for work end up getting stuck somewhere due to IRROPS can’t fly this lean schedule, then AA should have planned better?
Your logic is rookie and I highly doubt any airline could predict the amount of sick calls they’re dealing with that isn’t even due to COVID.
Flew last night and captain said 2 FOs called in sick in a row. 3rd FO pulled miraculously from another flight so we would leave after a delay. How do you predict this then? I doubt AA or any of the airlines maybe, faced these sick calls from people who just do not want to come to work
 
User avatar
Rookie87
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:30 pm

IADCA wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

I don't know how you can read what he posted and think that means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule." The gist of the post is that yes, it was a big weather event, but that because the schedule was too tight they were already at the point of cancelling 40 flights/day for lack of crew availability even if everything went perfectly.

That left absolutely zero staff to cover if there were IRROPS anywhere. That condition existed for 3 days at the end of the month - meaning, approximately 10% of the month. I don't know how you can read a post that makes very clear that a single adverse weather event - yes, a bad one - at a single hub of a multi-airline hub caused hundreds of cancellations per day because of a lack of crew, which was in turn caused by a schedule, and think it means "this has nothing to do with a too lean schedule."

If that same weather event happened today, it would be a mess for one day. It would be a mess for no more than one day because crew have hours available this month to fix it. That was not the case at the end of the month last month...because of AA's scheduling left not enough staff hours in reserve. In other words, the fact that it was a multi-day meltdown had everything to do with that "too lean schedule."


And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.


It's not like this was a bad month for IRROPS before that windstorm. COVID is not an excuse at this point. It is obvious that COVID is going to cause more people to need sick time. Has for a while, will for a while.

If that month caused them to run out of reserve hours before month-end, leaving no slack for any further IRROPS at all over four days, that means they are scheduled way too leanly. And that scheduling - not the predictable sickness issues (which, by the way, every airline is facing, including AA's own regionals, which managed the end of the month fine) and moderate IRROPS issues prior to the DFW circus - is why they had no reserves left over.

Look, I like AA. I fly them - OK, mostly their regionals - several times a month. But it's hard not to call this one what it was.



It’s one thing to call it for what it is and another to not think through what’s going on based on information provided by those who can actually find some facts.

AA had a meltdown and it was insane, no question about that.
I and a few others know it’s not because of a lean schedule without room for error. It’s a cluster of issues that came together and boom.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2647
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:49 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.

If you're running out of crews before the end of the month because, and this is by your definition, IROPS and sick calls, during a historically slower period even during COVID, then you're operating a schedule that can't match what you need to protect it - in other words: lean. As your name implies, this is a rookie mistake on AA's part. It takes a lot of reserve pilots and flight attendants to run an airline. More than you probably realize.


So by your logic if let’s say a third of your crew scheduled to work call in sick, then the ones called to replace them also call in sick AND the ones who actually show up for work end up getting stuck somewhere due to IRROPS can’t fly this lean schedule, then AA should have planned better?
Your logic is rookie and I highly doubt any airline could predict the amount of sick calls they’re dealing with that isn’t even due to COVID.
Flew last night and captain said 2 FOs called in sick in a row. 3rd FO pulled miraculously from another flight so we would leave after a delay. How do you predict this then? I doubt AA or any of the airlines maybe, faced these sick calls from people who just do not want to come to work

When employees call sick, employers have the right to request a doctor's note; if too many cannot produce such a note, then it's suspicious and the employer needs to address it. If the employer fails to address it, then it's on them.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3882
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:26 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
If you're running out of crews before the end of the month because, and this is by your definition, IROPS and sick calls, during a historically slower period even during COVID, then you're operating a schedule that can't match what you need to protect it - in other words: lean. As your name implies, this is a rookie mistake on AA's part. It takes a lot of reserve pilots and flight attendants to run an airline. More than you probably realize.


So by your logic if let’s say a third of your crew scheduled to work call in sick, then the ones called to replace them also call in sick AND the ones who actually show up for work end up getting stuck somewhere due to IRROPS can’t fly this lean schedule, then AA should have planned better?
Your logic is rookie and I highly doubt any airline could predict the amount of sick calls they’re dealing with that isn’t even due to COVID.
Flew last night and captain said 2 FOs called in sick in a row. 3rd FO pulled miraculously from another flight so we would leave after a delay. How do you predict this then? I doubt AA or any of the airlines maybe, faced these sick calls from people who just do not want to come to work

When employees call sick, employers have the right to request a doctor's note; if too many cannot produce such a note, then it's suspicious and the employer needs to address it. If the employer fails to address it, then it's on them.

However, requesting a doctor's note is being heavily discouraged by doctors for minor medical illnesses because its an unnecessary burden on the medical system. Often, these requests take up a doctor's appointment space, which means someone with a more serious illness gets bumped as a result. Some doctors have taken to charge for requesting a doctor's note, either from the patient, or from the employer as the cost and time spent on writing doctor's notes is not generally covered by any government or private health coverage plans.

And it's not like the doctor is doing anything to really examine or test the patient to see if they are really ill; at most, they are just taking the patient's reported symptoms as reported, and putting down on paper.

If it is a more serious medical condition which requires employer accommodation on an ongoing basis, then yes, a doctor's note is going to be required to determine the nature and extent of the accommodation. But that's a different story.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:27 pm

The problem isn't that AA had a meltdown, in covid times i think most people could see or understand one. The issue is that they have done it multiple times here and it seems like it will happen again.

AA looked for "positives" of why this wont happen again in their emails and Press Releases but didn't reduce flying really. Their holiday schedules are way too robust. AA knew there would be issues and scheduled these flights anyway. AA knows there will be issues and schedules the flights anyway they keep plowing thru and its not getting better as they had already promised. At some point you cant blame the weather for everything and you are basically selling something you know cant happen. AA better figure things out quickly here cause they are really getting a reputation that will be costly to shed. AA uses pretty normal weather events and is acting like they are once in a hundred year storms so they can do days of cancellations.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:01 pm

Rookie87 wrote:
stlAV8R wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

And why do you think the crews didn’t have hours??
It’s not because of too lean a schedule.
Reserves are there to cover sick calls and IRROPS.
Any other time before Covid this would have been a non issue, AA has been running out of crew not because of a lean schedule but because they’ve been exhausting their reserves who are covering sick calls and IRROPS. Combine all of this happening and it has absolutely nothing to do with the schedule being lean. Imagine how many crews they’d need to cover based on what I just typed, which is what the previous poster explained upthread and it would be near unrealistic to have that many reserves available.

If you're running out of crews before the end of the month because, and this is by your definition, IROPS and sick calls, during a historically slower period even during COVID, then you're operating a schedule that can't match what you need to protect it - in other words: lean. As your name implies, this is a rookie mistake on AA's part. It takes a lot of reserve pilots and flight attendants to run an airline. More than you probably realize.


So by your logic if let’s say a third of your crew scheduled to work call in sick, then the ones called to replace them also call in sick AND the ones who actually show up for work end up getting stuck somewhere due to IRROPS can’t fly this lean schedule, then AA should have planned better?
Your logic is rookie and I highly doubt any airline could predict the amount of sick calls they’re dealing with that isn’t even due to COVID.
Flew last night and captain said 2 FOs called in sick in a row. 3rd FO pulled miraculously from another flight so we would leave after a delay. How do you predict this then? I doubt AA or any of the airlines maybe, faced these sick calls from people who just do not want to come to work

Yes, by my logic. My logic shaped by my doing the job. And not just as an employee but as a manager and in scheduling.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:06 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

So by your logic if let’s say a third of your crew scheduled to work call in sick, then the ones called to replace them also call in sick AND the ones who actually show up for work end up getting stuck somewhere due to IRROPS can’t fly this lean schedule, then AA should have planned better?
Your logic is rookie and I highly doubt any airline could predict the amount of sick calls they’re dealing with that isn’t even due to COVID.
Flew last night and captain said 2 FOs called in sick in a row. 3rd FO pulled miraculously from another flight so we would leave after a delay. How do you predict this then? I doubt AA or any of the airlines maybe, faced these sick calls from people who just do not want to come to work

When employees call sick, employers have the right to request a doctor's note; if too many cannot produce such a note, then it's suspicious and the employer needs to address it. If the employer fails to address it, then it's on them.

However, requesting a doctor's note is being heavily discouraged by doctors for minor medical illnesses because its an unnecessary burden on the medical system. Often, these requests take up a doctor's appointment space, which means someone with a more serious illness gets bumped as a result. Some doctors have taken to charge for requesting a doctor's note, either from the patient, or from the employer as the cost and time spent on writing doctor's notes is not generally covered by any government or private health coverage plans.

And it's not like the doctor is doing anything to really examine or test the patient to see if they are really ill; at most, they are just taking the patient's reported symptoms as reported, and putting down on paper.

If it is a more serious medical condition which requires employer accommodation on an ongoing basis, then yes, a doctor's note is going to be required to determine the nature and extent of the accommodation. But that's a different story.

Most times the airlines require doc notes during certain dates to discourage abuse of the sick call system. You will see this around major holidays. Other than that, it's discretion.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:19 am

All airlines and many other companies and industries had issues for the past 2 years. If I weren’t working 12-14 hours a day I would make a list of all the hiccups the airlines had the past 2 years. And there are a ton from Delta and their holidays cancellations last year, to JetBlue with their large amount of announcing flights and then not flying them, Allegiant not flying any flight that didn’t make a $1, Spirit, Southwest and now American. So United might not have had a massive hiccup, but like everyone said they were super conservative and I did not fly them like I would not fly any other Airline unless they had multiple flights a day to the same destination.
 
aa1818
Posts: 1631
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:03 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:41 pm

Rookie87 wrote:

Talk about not missing an opportunity lol UA kicked while it was hot and man

That is Kirby taking the opportunity to stick his tounge out at the AA Board who have continuously allowed Parker to keep his job, when he should have been kicked out the door ages ago over dozens of failures as CEO.

AA1818
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:38 pm

The meltdown also shows the risk of a mega hub on total operations. If major hurricane storms went through Atlanta, Delta’s operations would have (and did in the past) experience similar stresses. I’m not defending AA management. They have done a credible job of keeping the domestic system functioning during COVID, but profitability seems no where in site right now.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2647
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:44 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

So by your logic if let’s say a third of your crew scheduled to work call in sick, then the ones called to replace them also call in sick AND the ones who actually show up for work end up getting stuck somewhere due to IRROPS can’t fly this lean schedule, then AA should have planned better?
Your logic is rookie and I highly doubt any airline could predict the amount of sick calls they’re dealing with that isn’t even due to COVID.
Flew last night and captain said 2 FOs called in sick in a row. 3rd FO pulled miraculously from another flight so we would leave after a delay. How do you predict this then? I doubt AA or any of the airlines maybe, faced these sick calls from people who just do not want to come to work

When employees call sick, employers have the right to request a doctor's note; if too many cannot produce such a note, then it's suspicious and the employer needs to address it. If the employer fails to address it, then it's on them.

However, requesting a doctor's note is being heavily discouraged by doctors for minor medical illnesses because its an unnecessary burden on the medical system. Often, these requests take up a doctor's appointment space, which means someone with a more serious illness gets bumped as a result. Some doctors have taken to charge for requesting a doctor's note, either from the patient, or from the employer as the cost and time spent on writing doctor's notes is not generally covered by any government or private health coverage plans.

And it's not like the doctor is doing anything to really examine or test the patient to see if they are really ill; at most, they are just taking the patient's reported symptoms as reported, and putting down on paper.

If it is a more serious medical condition which requires employer accommodation on an ongoing basis, then yes, a doctor's note is going to be required to determine the nature and extent of the accommodation. But that's a different story.

When you suspect your employees are calling in sick for no reason, that's what you do: request an official note.
If doctors are forging notes, their license can be on the line; most won't lie to accommodate patients they barely know.

We did that with an employee who called in sick a couple of Fridays within a few weeks; he never fell sick again on Fridays...
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:57 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
When employees call sick, employers have the right to request a doctor's note; if too many cannot produce such a note, then it's suspicious and the employer needs to address it. If the employer fails to address it, then it's on them.

However, requesting a doctor's note is being heavily discouraged by doctors for minor medical illnesses because its an unnecessary burden on the medical system. Often, these requests take up a doctor's appointment space, which means someone with a more serious illness gets bumped as a result. Some doctors have taken to charge for requesting a doctor's note, either from the patient, or from the employer as the cost and time spent on writing doctor's notes is not generally covered by any government or private health coverage plans.

And it's not like the doctor is doing anything to really examine or test the patient to see if they are really ill; at most, they are just taking the patient's reported symptoms as reported, and putting down on paper.

If it is a more serious medical condition which requires employer accommodation on an ongoing basis, then yes, a doctor's note is going to be required to determine the nature and extent of the accommodation. But that's a different story.

When you suspect your employees are calling in sick for no reason, that's what you do: request an official note.
If doctors are forging notes, their license can be on the line; most won't lie to accommodate patients they barely know.

We did that with an employee who called in sick a couple of Fridays within a few weeks; he never fell sick again on Fridays...


Most union contracts forbid the company from requesting doctor’s notes unless the call in lasts for several days or there is a verifiable pattern.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2647
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:07 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
However, requesting a doctor's note is being heavily discouraged by doctors for minor medical illnesses because its an unnecessary burden on the medical system. Often, these requests take up a doctor's appointment space, which means someone with a more serious illness gets bumped as a result. Some doctors have taken to charge for requesting a doctor's note, either from the patient, or from the employer as the cost and time spent on writing doctor's notes is not generally covered by any government or private health coverage plans.

And it's not like the doctor is doing anything to really examine or test the patient to see if they are really ill; at most, they are just taking the patient's reported symptoms as reported, and putting down on paper.

If it is a more serious medical condition which requires employer accommodation on an ongoing basis, then yes, a doctor's note is going to be required to determine the nature and extent of the accommodation. But that's a different story.

When you suspect your employees are calling in sick for no reason, that's what you do: request an official note.
If doctors are forging notes, their license can be on the line; most won't lie to accommodate patients they barely know.

We did that with an employee who called in sick a couple of Fridays within a few weeks; he never fell sick again on Fridays...


Most union contracts forbid the company from requesting doctor’s notes unless the call in lasts for several days or there is a verifiable pattern.

Did you read my posts? I didn't say when one employee does it; I said when a lot of them do it at the same time and/or the same employee does it repeatedly. THAT's a verifiable pattern...
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4823
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:16 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
When you suspect your employees are calling in sick for no reason, that's what you do: request an official note.
If doctors are forging notes, their license can be on the line; most won't lie to accommodate patients they barely know.

We did that with an employee who called in sick a couple of Fridays within a few weeks; he never fell sick again on Fridays...


Most union contracts forbid the company from requesting doctor’s notes unless the call in lasts for several days or there is a verifiable pattern.

Did you read my posts? I didn't say when one employee does it; I said when a lot of them do it at the same time and/or the same employee does it repeatedly. THAT's a verifiable pattern...


Then a judge has to approve that violation of the contract. If I call out sick tomorrow, and so do 75 other people I am not going to be held responsible for the other 75. The company cannot ask me for a note just because other people were sick. Patterns are individual, and if the company suspects a work stoppage or organized sick out they need to contact a judge. By the time a judge does anything it will be too late to request a note - am I to go see a doctor and get a note about a fever I had for one weekend 3 weeks ago? Are you serious?
 
kalvado
Posts: 3515
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:31 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
The meltdown also shows the risk of a mega hub on total operations. If major hurricane storms went through Atlanta, Delta’s operations would have (and did in the past) experience similar stresses. I’m not defending AA management. They have done a credible job of keeping the domestic system functioning during COVID, but profitability seems no where in site right now.

Part of the issue is having tools - slack in crew and aircraft scheduling, interline agreements and what not - to recover. Part of the issue here is long and painful recovery. I wonder if all pax caught in the mess are taken care of by now...
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:09 pm

kalvado wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
The meltdown also shows the risk of a mega hub on total operations. If major hurricane storms went through Atlanta, Delta’s operations would have (and did in the past) experience similar stresses. I’m not defending AA management. They have done a credible job of keeping the domestic system functioning during COVID, but profitability seems no where in site right now.

Part of the issue is having tools - slack in crew and aircraft scheduling, interline agreements and what not - to recover. Part of the issue here is long and painful recovery. I wonder if all pax caught in the mess are taken care of by now...


They were told from people I know who got caught up hold onto receipts and email to customer seevice. This is gonna take weeks or months to process all of them. AA is backed up from all of their other meltdown days. We all know an agent when thousands of upset and over tired people in front will say that the default hold onto receipts. What AA will cover will be up to that team and I'm sure heavily tied to your AA status. I net they deny alot and try the once in a hundred year storm for most claims without status. Most people got delayed days because the flights they were moved too then had huge cancellations. I would say most people are still not taken care of
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:42 pm

aa1818 wrote:
Rookie87 wrote:

Talk about not missing an opportunity lol UA kicked while it was hot and man

That is Kirby taking the opportunity to stick his tounge out at the AA Board who have continuously allowed Parker to keep his job, when he should have been kicked out the door ages ago over dozens of failures as CEO.

AA1818


Correct.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:01 am

Looks like AA might have been experiencing more than just weather related staffing issues last weekend. AA is instituting significant incentives for FAs during the holidays to have perfect attendance.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/05/ame ... tions.html
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6511
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:25 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
The meltdown also shows the risk of a mega hub on total operations. If major hurricane storms went through Atlanta, Delta’s operations would have (and did in the past) experience similar stresses. I’m not defending AA management. They have done a credible job of keeping the domestic system functioning during COVID, but profitability seems no where in site right now.


I get your point. But thats a bit of an unfair comparison, hurricanes are known about days, if not a week in advance so they much easier to prep for. You always see airlines proactively cancel flights and issue travel waivers.

They really couldn't have done that level of prep for this event due to the unexpected nature.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:15 pm

I'm not sure what so many people's insistence is on not believing that the AA leaders actually put profits over customers and over operating the airline responsibly and it backfired.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 5:32 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
The meltdown also shows the risk of a mega hub on total operations. If major hurricane storms went through Atlanta, Delta’s operations would have (and did in the past) experience similar stresses. I’m not defending AA management. They have done a credible job of keeping the domestic system functioning during COVID, but profitability seems no where in site right now.


That's not what caused this. This wasn't a weather created event, that's just what AA needs for press releases. AA had an unrealistic schedule compared to its employee roster that's what caused this. AA basically sold a timetable they know couldn't be flown to try to take in more cash and just hope it worked out less of a dumpster fire then it did. This was an intentional overbooking by AA. I just want to see what they will do to prevent it from happening again, cause it looks like it will. Those "fresh" new crew members might not help as much as they want you to think. Every AA flight attendant i talk to is exhausted and hoping for significantly LESS hours in November and December. AA left them all types of crazy places to fend for themselves too in this mess. Lots had to dead head home and stuck for days in random places all over the country. Plus AA has alot more flights to cover and traditionally a lot worse weather to deal with in Thanksgiving-New Years timeframe. ORD, JFK, LGA, BOS we have winter type weather issues coming very soon. I think AA needs to take this seriously, they are becoming the abandoning people for days airline, not sure they want that
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:40 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
The meltdown also shows the risk of a mega hub on total operations. If major hurricane storms went through Atlanta, Delta’s operations would have (and did in the past) experience similar stresses. I’m not defending AA management. They have done a credible job of keeping the domestic system functioning during COVID, but profitability seems no where in site right now.


That's not what caused this. This wasn't a weather created event, that's just what AA needs for press releases. AA had an unrealistic schedule compared to its employee roster that's what caused this. AA basically sold a timetable they know couldn't be flown to try to take in more cash and just hope it worked out less of a dumpster fire then it did. This was an intentional overbooking by AA. I just want to see what they will do to prevent it from happening again, cause it looks like it will. Those "fresh" new crew members might not help as much as they want you to think. Every AA flight attendant i talk to is exhausted and hoping for significantly LESS hours in November and December. AA left them all types of crazy places to fend for themselves too in this mess. Lots had to dead head home and stuck for days in random places all over the country. Plus AA has alot more flights to cover and traditionally a lot worse weather to deal with in Thanksgiving-New Years timeframe. ORD, JFK, LGA, BOS we have winter type weather issues coming very soon. I think AA needs to take this seriously, they are becoming the abandoning people for days airline, not sure they want that

I think the ship has sailed on fixing this in the foreseeable future based on the holiday perfect attendance incentives. At this point it's too late to scale back for the holidays and you're absolutely right about winter weather testing the operation right up to the holidays. There's no chance that AA would subject themselves to a several month long lingering PR nightmare by thinning their holiday schedule now so it's pay out bribes and hope for the best.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3539
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:55 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This wasn't a weather created event, that's just what AA needs for press releases.


It's very clear that weather precipitated the situation. Was AA prepared for crazy weather? Absolutely not. That's on them. Did weather still cause the problem? Yes. I don't see why everyone feels the need to allocate blame to only one or the other...

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This was an intentional overbooking by AA.


Doubt it. Over-optimistic on the part of the scheduling team? Sure; even to the extent that the optimism caused more harm than good. But ill-intentioned? Gonna need you to provide some hard proof on that one.
 
stlAV8R
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:13 pm

FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This wasn't a weather created event, that's just what AA needs for press releases.


It's very clear that weather precipitated the situation. Was AA prepared for crazy weather? Absolutely not. That's on them. Did weather still cause the problem? Yes. I don't see why everyone feels the need to allocate blame to only one or the other...

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This was an intentional overbooking by AA.


Doubt it. Over-optimistic on the part of the scheduling team? Sure; even to the extent that the optimism caused more harm than good. But ill-intentioned? Gonna need you to provide some hard proof on that one.

Weather was just a contributing factor to a problem that already existed. It only appears that weather caused the event because that's what made news headlines.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:13 pm

FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This wasn't a weather created event, that's just what AA needs for press releases.


It's very clear that weather precipitated the situation. Was AA prepared for crazy weather? Absolutely not. That's on them. Did weather still cause the problem? Yes. I don't see why everyone feels the need to allocate blame to only one or the other...

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This was an intentional overbooking by AA.


Doubt it. Over-optimistic on the part of the scheduling team? Sure; even to the extent that the optimism caused more harm than good. But ill-intentioned? Gonna need you to provide some hard proof on that one.

AA hubs had severe weather all summer long and avoided major disruptions of this scale. The October flight schedule is a fraction of what the July looked like and I believe they had even more people who have returned from leaves of absence.

Heavy winds at DFW should of resulted in mass cancellations at the regionals as well but some how they barely cancelled any. Traditionally when reducing arrivals and departures you look at the regionals first to disrupt the least amount of passengers but that didn't happen.

When employees aren't happy with the environment AA has provided they don't think twice about calling in sick. This was not a weather disruption regardless of what is said in press releases.
 
twoaislesforme
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:02 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:10 pm

79 cancellations today. I wonder if AA sees this as an acceptable amount of cancellations, kind of like business as usual
 
dstblj52
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:40 pm

if it's weather the regionals take the brunt if it's a meltdown it's roughly equal if it's staffing their not correlated easy test.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:50 pm

JohanTally wrote:
FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This wasn't a weather created event, that's just what AA needs for press releases.


It's very clear that weather precipitated the situation. Was AA prepared for crazy weather? Absolutely not. That's on them. Did weather still cause the problem? Yes. I don't see why everyone feels the need to allocate blame to only one or the other...

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This was an intentional overbooking by AA.


Doubt it. Over-optimistic on the part of the scheduling team? Sure; even to the extent that the optimism caused more harm than good. But ill-intentioned? Gonna need you to provide some hard proof on that one.

AA hubs had severe weather all summer long and avoided major disruptions of this scale. The October flight schedule is a fraction of what the July looked like and I believe they had even more people who have returned from leaves of absence.

Heavy winds at DFW should of resulted in mass cancellations at the regionals as well but some how they barely cancelled any. Traditionally when reducing arrivals and departures you look at the regionals first to disrupt the least amount of passengers but that didn't happen.

When employees aren't happy with the environment AA has provided they don't think twice about calling in sick. This was not a weather disruption regardless of what is said in press releases.


Exactly weather didn't create this problem. It was crosswinds.....not a once in a hundred year storm and planes were landing. As others said the regionals had almost no issues nor did other airlines. The airline had a meltdown and used weather as an excuse. They needed something for press releases and for agents to tell people. AA trying to be cheAAp and book way too many flights that's all this was. Weather was just a contributing factor to a problem that already existed not the cause of anything.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:23 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
FSDan wrote:

It's very clear that weather precipitated the situation. Was AA prepared for crazy weather? Absolutely not. That's on them. Did weather still cause the problem? Yes. I don't see why everyone feels the need to allocate blame to only one or the other...



Doubt it. Over-optimistic on the part of the scheduling team? Sure; even to the extent that the optimism caused more harm than good. But ill-intentioned? Gonna need you to provide some hard proof on that one.

AA hubs had severe weather all summer long and avoided major disruptions of this scale. The October flight schedule is a fraction of what the July looked like and I believe they had even more people who have returned from leaves of absence.

Heavy winds at DFW should of resulted in mass cancellations at the regionals as well but some how they barely cancelled any. Traditionally when reducing arrivals and departures you look at the regionals first to disrupt the least amount of passengers but that didn't happen.

When employees aren't happy with the environment AA has provided they don't think twice about calling in sick. This was not a weather disruption regardless of what is said in press releases.


Exactly weather didn't create this problem. It was crosswinds.....not a once in a hundred year storm and planes were landing. As others said the regionals had almost no issues nor did other airlines. The airline had a meltdown and used weather as an excuse. They needed something for press releases and for agents to tell people. AA trying to be cheAAp and book way too many flights that's all this was. Weather was just a contributing factor to a problem that already existed not the cause of anything.

WN had over a 1,000 delays from the winds at DAL.
 
DLASFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:34 am

Boof02671 wrote:
WN had over a 1,000 delays from the winds at DAL.


WN has over 1,000 delays most days of late.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:44 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WN had over a 1,000 delays from the winds at DAL.


WN has over 1,000 delays most days of late.

That’s has nothing to do with the winds.

“Passengers experienced cancellations and delays at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport, largely due to windy weather. By late afternoon American Airlines was reporting 107 canceled flights and 833 delays system-wide. Southwest Airlines reported 37 cancelations and 741 delays.”

https://www.wfaa.com/amp/article/news/l ... 35a8bb2e1f
 
twoaislesforme
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:02 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:50 pm

56 cancelled flights already today for AA. Doesnt seem to be any harsh weather throughout all the AA hubs. So, why all the cancellations already and this is on top of the 82 from yesterday. There's no way that many planes go OOS b/c of mechanical issues and it cant be staffing, they just brought back 1500 FA's, so what gives?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:54 pm

twoaislesforme wrote:
56 cancelled flights already today for AA. Doesnt seem to be any harsh weather throughout all the AA hubs. So, why all the cancellations already and this is on top of the 82 from yesterday. There's no way that many planes go OOS b/c of mechanical issues and it cant be staffing, they just brought back 1500 FA's, so what gives?

Those 1,500 have to go through retraining etc. they just don’t come back to work after a year or more off and resume their jobs.
 
DLASFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:55 pm

twoaislesforme wrote:
56 cancelled flights already today for AA. Doesnt seem to be any harsh weather throughout all the AA hubs. So, why all the cancellations already and this is on top of the 82 from yesterday. There's no way that many planes go OOS b/c of mechanical issues and it cant be staffing, they just brought back 1500 FA's, so what gives?


Hearing pilot staffing now, particularly 737 pilot staffing.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:56 pm

twoaislesforme wrote:
56 cancelled flights already today for AA. Doesnt seem to be any harsh weather throughout all the AA hubs. So, why all the cancellations already and this is on top of the 82 from yesterday. There's no way that many planes go OOS b/c of mechanical issues and it cant be staffing, they just brought back 1500 FA's, so what gives?

And WN has already canceled 21 flights.

UA has canceled 11.
 
aaden
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:49 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:09 pm

Can anyone provide an update on what actually caused this? American claimed weather was the issue more or less correct?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:11 pm

aaden wrote:
Can anyone provide an update on what actually caused this? American claimed weather was the issue more or less correct?

It was DFW having three if five runways closed and a lot of flight attendants due to then running out of hours at the end of the month.

WN also had over 700 cancellations because of the same wind storm.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:15 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Looks like AA might have been experiencing more than just weather related staffing issues last weekend. AA is instituting significant incentives for FAs during the holidays to have perfect attendance.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/05/ame ... tions.html


Glad to see they are trying and it does say the FA union was involved. With the way airfares get jacked up at holidays, it’s a great idea to incentivize cabin crews.

Hang in there.
 
BB78710
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:31 pm

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:36 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Looks like AA might have been experiencing more than just weather related staffing issues last weekend. AA is instituting significant incentives for FAs during the holidays to have perfect attendance.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/05/ame ... tions.html



By penalizing people who are actually sick. Imagine you're an FA and you've had perfect attendance until December 31 but then you are actually sick with either the flu or COIVID will that FA do the responsible thing and call in sick and end the possibility of them getting 300% of their pay or will that FA come to work and power through the next 3 days until the end of January 2nd just for the 300% but as a result risk getting others sick.

Also if American is going to offer their flight attendants a 300% incentive what about their remaining frontline employees from pilots to dispatchers even ramp agents all of whom are a necessary piece of AA's operation and would want a 300% incentive as well.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:37 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
twoaislesforme wrote:
56 cancelled flights already today for AA. Doesnt seem to be any harsh weather throughout all the AA hubs. So, why all the cancellations already and this is on top of the 82 from yesterday. There's no way that many planes go OOS b/c of mechanical issues and it cant be staffing, they just brought back 1500 FA's, so what gives?

And WN has already canceled 21 flights.

UA has canceled 11.


What aboutism is an art form. AA’s numbers have been consistently worse than its competitors.

Jeremy
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:38 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
twoaislesforme wrote:
56 cancelled flights already today for AA. Doesnt seem to be any harsh weather throughout all the AA hubs. So, why all the cancellations already and this is on top of the 82 from yesterday. There's no way that many planes go OOS b/c of mechanical issues and it cant be staffing, they just brought back 1500 FA's, so what gives?

And WN has already canceled 21 flights.

UA has canceled 11.


What aboutism is an art form. AA’s numbers have been consistently worse than its competitors.

Jeremy

And they also fly more flights than the others.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
And WN has already canceled 21 flights.

UA has canceled 11.


What aboutism is an art form. AA’s numbers have been consistently worse than its competitors.

Jeremy

And they also fly more flights than the others.


Proportionally, they still underperform against DL and UA, in nearly every metric. And AA doesn’t have considerably more flights than WN (I’m unsure if WN has surpassed AA like it did pre-covid). If AA does poorly because it has more flights then maybe it needs to cut flights, which it really can’t due to other failures that AA management refuses to address.

Jeremy
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:12 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

What aboutism is an art form. AA’s numbers have been consistently worse than its competitors.

Jeremy

And they also fly more flights than the others.


Proportionally, they still underperform against DL and UA, in nearly every metric. And AA doesn’t have considerably more flights than WN (I’m unsure if WN has surpassed AA like it did pre-covid). If AA does poorly because it has more flights then maybe it needs to cut flights, which it really can’t due to other failures that AA management refuses to address.

Jeremy

And WN doesn’t have widebodies etc.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: AAnother Meltdown

Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:44 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
And they also fly more flights than the others.


Proportionally, they still underperform against DL and UA, in nearly every metric. And AA doesn’t have considerably more flights than WN (I’m unsure if WN has surpassed AA like it did pre-covid). If AA does poorly because it has more flights then maybe it needs to cut flights, which it really can’t due to other failures that AA management refuses to address.

Jeremy

And WN doesn’t have widebodies etc.


Excuse after excuse after excuse. AA does not have a well-run operation, point, blank, period. Why is that so hard to acknowledge? Their house is not in order and management continues to ignore that. Sigh...

Jeremy

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