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phatfarmlines
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JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:04 pm

Following a thread from last year on the IAB overwing jetways, I've been curious to learn more about the IAB layout. It's not a typical layout for a terminal, almost resembling an early curb-to-gate model. It's a terminal where interior photos are very hard to come by, though in the thread from last year's discussion, there was a YouTube link from an episode of the "Late Night Show with David Letterman" back in 1988 where he hosted a show from the restaurant overlooking the two piers. That's the most I've ever seen of the interior of the facility.

I've linked a map of the IAB from 1973 below, which I presume is post-expansion. As I understand it, the ticketing and check-in lobbies were set up like "storefronts" resembling a shopping plaza with each of the international flag carrier utilizing its own branding as well as staffing the operations with its own employees. This was in the days before common-use technology or handling companies like Swissport or Menzies. You could access the airline's lobby from curbside, but once inside, you could not access another "storefront" or airline lobby. To do so, you had to go back outside and walk to that other lobby.

Once you checked in, each of the flag carriers had their own lounge upstairs, accessible by stairs/escalator/elevator. When it was time for boarding, you simply went out into the corridor to your gate and boarded the flight. As security procedures became enforced and the terminal was renovated and expanded for widebody usage, the lounges above the ticket counters were likely converted to enclosed premium lounges for that airline. From last year's thread, I learned that you went through security at the gate and not some consolidated checkpoint.

As the terminal was reconfigured and expanded for widebody usage, how was the arrivals facility expanded? Were their baggage carousels in the basement like the TWA Flight Center and the Pan Am Worldport for international arrivals? I presume the overhead view of the supermarket-style arrivals inspection was sealed off by the time the 1990's came around.

Pictures I found on Flickr:

Map of IAB from 1973, West Wing

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802 ... 4h-QZu7gr/

(Source: user mpar21)

Map of IAB from 1973, East Wing and Arrivals Building

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802 ... 4h-QZu7gr/

(Source: user mpar21)

Pan Am [2nd iteration] "storefront" (taken sometime in the late 90's?)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shiftynj/ ... bvL-4JCKm3

(Source: user shiftynj)

Another "storefront" view from 1978 looking at the East Wing Departures

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... fT-2k2ALsD

(Source: user Edward Crellin)

Demotion work on the old IAB. I presume the above-level hallways was an arrival corridor?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... Kv5-qxDdPt

(Source: user Tom Turner)

Interior of Arrivals Building at night. Were the counters here service counters, possibly for passengers to confirm return flights? Were these counters used for any other purpose through the 90's?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... ESS-5WmEYQ

(Source: user Tom Turner)
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:38 pm

The old IAB was an almost windowless, except for a few areas, facility. Each airline had its own ticketing lobby for check in and you would then head upstairs to a central area (again, mostly windowless, with airline lounges and offices on the street side and gates opposite. The gates were drab, but they had these large billboard illuminated signs that would flash "BOARDING" above the entrance to the jetway. There was a middle section as well, that also had few windows. It wasn't small, and handled a lot of 747s, DC10s, and before that, 707s and DC8s. It was generally a miserable place, with few amenities and little to no charm. Take a look at this airways article on airport dioramas. It gives you a good sense of what the IAB looked like from the exterior and how jets accessed it:

https://airwaysmag.com/avgeek/airport-dioramas/
 
adipasqu
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:15 pm

Airporthistory.org has some nice interior pictures of the IAB:

https://www.airporthistory.org/kennedy-iab.html
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:57 pm

The Calder mobile was one of the few cool things to look at and wasn't there an observation deck you could access for a dime (10 cents)?
One thing I liked, as I was always picking up visitors at the IAB, is that I'd park further away, where there were always easy to get to spaces for your car, then I'd take the bridge over the roadways, that almost no one ever used, and had easy access into the terminal.
I also remember in the waiting area there was an angled view, from above, of a sliver of customs, so you could see people walk out towards the exit once they cleared and then you could go meet them.
The restaurant I don't really remember though I do recall there was a snack bar and this is all post 1973.
Spent a lot of time there and at the dearly missed Worldport (yeah, I know it was dumpy, but still).
 
F27500
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:29 pm

It was a groovy terminal. I remember each airline had their own individual check in lobbies. After check-in, you'd go up the stairs to the connected common area hallway and to the gates. I recall Air France at the extreme right end ... and Aer Lingus (i believe) at the far left. Several airlines who had non-conflicting schedules and only 1 or 2 frequencies a day (or a few a week) would share a check in lobby.

There was an incredible observation deck overlooking the center apron area between the two piers .. I have a pic of me up there with an SAS DC8 behind me as a kid. That area closed, i believe, before the 80s. I recall several of the gates were mobile lounge gates and many of the planes parked remotely out on the ramp. I don't recall a single window out onto the ramp. As late as the 80s, i recall you could go up and wander around freely (like most airports); as long as you passed thru security, you could go to the gates. It was so much fun as an avgeek to go up and watch the pax boarding flights to all those far-flung places on those exotic (to me, at the time) carriers too.

Then, it was a short walk next door over to the rooftop parking lot at the PA Worldport to gawk at the ramp, taxiway and runway action. I spent hours and hours just hanging out at JFK back then just to plane and people watch. The IAB was a classic! Many memories of that building .. and I was a pax a few times too, not just a geek! LOL
 
AirStairs
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:44 pm

It was before my time, but always love seeing the I <3 NY people movers and overwing jet bridges in photos. I don't think I've ever once seen a photo of the overwing bridges actually in use at IAB.
 
wjcandee
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:56 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
You could access the airline's lobby from curbside, but once inside, you could not access another "storefront" or airline lobby. To do so, you had to go back outside and walk to that other lobby.


I don't remember this part. I seem to recall being able to walk inside between carrier counters.
 
F27500
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:07 pm

wjcandee wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
You could access the airline's lobby from curbside, but once inside, you could not access another "storefront" or airline lobby. To do so, you had to go back outside and walk to that other lobby.


I don't remember this part. I seem to recall being able to walk inside between carrier counters.


Unless they were airlines that shared the same walled off check in lobby, then no .. there were walls between them. You'd have to go out onto the sidewalk and back in again .. or .. up the stairs and then down again into the next lobby.
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:16 pm

I think I also remember a big "flap flap flap" type of arrivals/departures board that had two lights that would start blinking alternately when a flight was boarding or had just landed. Other than those and the occasional PA announcement the only way to find out anything about a flight was to go pester the airline people at the counters. I do remember customs being painfully slow in that building, whether arriving on a flight or when picking up visitors.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:02 pm

ClipperYankee wrote:
I think I also remember a big "flap flap flap" type of arrivals/departures board that had two lights that would start blinking alternately when a flight was boarding or had just landed. Other than those and the occasional PA announcement the only way to find out anything about a flight was to go pester the airline people at the counters. I do remember customs being painfully slow in that building, whether arriving on a flight or when picking up visitors.


Customs in that building (old IAB) were a nightmare. Very slow. Often hit and miss staff wise, with a lot of surly, entitled, overly patriotic staff manning those counters. The customs hall as I recall emptied out into the main arrival hall at the center, with the semi-circular roof with all the flags of the countries who's airlines were represented there.
 
GZM1
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:26 pm

Excellent post, the dioramas are beautiful. Do me a favour, do you have any pictures with Olympic airplanes at JFK? Thanks!
 
Prost
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:30 pm

Yeah, those dioramas are amazing. Color me envious.
 
entdoc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:46 pm

I remember LY having a departure area. With their extra security.
Then up an escalator IIRC to their own waiting lounge on second floor. Don’t recall much by way of food or drink.
The lounges were on the street side. There was an internal corridor running the length of the building. So as I recall one could enter other carriers lounges.
The corridor also led to duty free and a central area where one could observe arriving pax from above.
The departure wings had a few gates w jetways including the over wing ones. But also doors that led to the Mobile lounges that used to be used. IIRC gate 25 was for those lounges.
Security was closer to the gate and far less intense. Memories.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:24 pm

GZM1 wrote:
Excellent post, the dioramas are beautiful. Do me a favour, do you have any pictures with Olympic airplanes at JFK? Thanks!


I believe Olympic operated from the IAB, then, moved to the American Airlines terminal (the original one), then moved to T1. There are photos of the OA 747 tails with the rings at the IAB, parked between two SR 747s and next to an Air India 747 if you google Olympic Airways, JFK, 1980s.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:30 pm

Does anyone recall how the 2003 T4 was built (was it built around the existing IAB in stages)? I don't remember what happened in terms of airlines being displaced. Some I know moved to T1 when it opened (VS, and LX, for a brief time, but that was after T4 had opened and then it went back to T4).
 
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Revelation
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:52 pm

adipasqu wrote:
Airporthistory.org has some nice interior pictures of the IAB:

https://www.airporthistory.org/kennedy-iab.html

Very nice!

ClipperYankee wrote:
The Calder mobile was one of the few cool things to look at and wasn't there an observation deck you could access for a dime (10 cents)?
One thing I liked, as I was always picking up visitors at the IAB, is that I'd park further away, where there were always easy to get to spaces for your car, then I'd take the bridge over the roadways, that almost no one ever used, and had easy access into the terminal.
I also remember in the waiting area there was an angled view, from above, of a sliver of customs, so you could see people walk out towards the exit once they cleared and then you could go meet them.
The restaurant I don't really remember though I do recall there was a snack bar and this is all post 1973.
Spent a lot of time there and at the dearly missed Worldport (yeah, I know it was dumpy, but still).

Thanks for those vivid memories. My love of aviation partially comes from me and my family picking up visitors at JFK in the 70s, mostly at IAB and TWA. I vividly remember the Calder mobile and the whole Jetsons-like experience of the TWA terminal.

ClipperYankee wrote:
I think I also remember a big "flap flap flap" type of arrivals/departures board that had two lights that would start blinking alternately when a flight was boarding or had just landed. Other than those and the occasional PA announcement the only way to find out anything about a flight was to go pester the airline people at the counters. I do remember customs being painfully slow in that building, whether arriving on a flight or when picking up visitors.

Is this it?

Image

From the airporthistory.org link above...
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:22 pm

Is this it?

Image

From the airporthistory.org link above...[/quote]

That is an interesting one in the picture but I remember more the classic black and white ones that would take quite a while to cycle through to get to the desired airline, flight, times, etc. The one in the picture looks like it has pixels so it may have come before or after? The size of the board looks right though. It does show Pan Am flights and I am not sure if Pan Am had any arrivals in the IAB so that might disqualify it, perhaps?

My pleasure on bringing back memories, I always enjoyed going to JFK and yes, there was the TWA terminal too, which I got to actually use once in a 1974 flight back from Paris.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:27 pm

F27500 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
You could access the airline's lobby from curbside, but once inside, you could not access another "storefront" or airline lobby. To do so, you had to go back outside and walk to that other lobby.


I don't remember this part. I seem to recall being able to walk inside between carrier counters.


Unless they were airlines that shared the same walled off check in lobby, then no .. there were walls between them. You'd have to go out onto the sidewalk and back in again .. or .. up the stairs and then down again into the next lobby.


Yes, I remember it that way.....I passed through JFK in 1980 and '83 on AI 747 flights.....recall the AI check in being next to El Al.....once you entered a particular airline's check in lounge you could only exit into the main terminal or back on to the street.....if I recall, visitors could go almost up to the departure gate and as mentioned above by someone, the security used to be at each gate and not central.....if you purchased anything at a duty free shop it would be kept ready in plastic duty free bags at the gate just before boarding.....you could not carry the purchases out of the shop as those areas were accessible to visitors...
 
luckyone
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:53 pm

ClipperYankee wrote:
Is this it?

Image

From the airporthistory.org link above...


That is an interesting one in the picture but I remember more the classic black and white ones that would take quite a while to cycle through to get to the desired airline, flight, times, etc. The one in the picture looks like it has pixels so it may have come before or after? The size of the board looks right though. It does show Pan Am flights and I am not sure if Pan Am had any arrivals in the IAB so that might disqualify it, perhaps?

My pleasure on bringing back memories, I always enjoyed going to JFK and yes, there was the TWA terminal too, which I got to actually use once in a 1974 flight back from Paris.[/quote]
Unless I’m mistaken, PanAm arrived into the IAB until the Worldport was expanded for the 747.
 
jfk777
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:20 am

The IAB was a disgrace by the time the 1970's arrived and its a shame it lasted until the late 1990's. This was the first impression most people had of America, we clearly didn;t have any pride or urge to replace it. Terminal 4 isn't anything to get excited about and could be a terminal anywhere but is modern. JFK has undergone a rennasance and will be quite something when the new T1 is built and T7 replacement. If AA T8 is built to the original pre 9/11JFK would be complete for the first time in decades.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:12 am

jfk777 wrote:
The IAB was a disgrace by the time the 1970's arrived and its a shame it lasted until the late 1990's. This was the first impression most people had of America, we clearly didn;t have any pride or urge to replace it. Terminal 4 isn't anything to get excited about and could be a terminal anywhere but is modern. JFK has undergone a rennasance and will be quite something when the new T1 is built and T7 replacement. If AA T8 is built to the original pre 9/11JFK would be complete for the first time in decades.


Terminal 8 isn't going to be built out to its original specifications. 6 gates are being added to the head house and the Eagle gates at the far end of the midfield concourse are being repurposed away from smaller RJ's and turned into mainline gates. That's about it. T4 was a very significant improvement over the IAB, which had no architectural features worth salvaging and indeed was an embarrassing, dingy, dirty, and unpleasant place to arrive (or depart from) by the 1980s, let alone the 1990s. There is a lot to not like in T4, from the relatively low ceilings, long walks, congestion at security checkpoints and FIS (during normal travel times), and a mediocre retail and dining complex. Not sure JFK has undergone a true renaissance, but T5, T8, and to a much lesser extent, T4, have somewhat improved the passenger experience there. A new T1 and replacement for T7 will also help further that experience but the lack of unified terminals, cumbersome access to the AirTrain (still a vast improvement over the shuttle buses), make JFK bearable but still far from what it could always have been as the biggest gateway to the US. America has a very long way to go on improving its infrastructure which remains rickety, outdated, and not well suited for the future.
 
LAXffDUB
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:03 pm

My fondest memory of the IAB was as a child gazing on the Calder mobile. Does anybody know it's current status? Is it on display somewhere?
 
sgbroimp
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:11 pm

My memories of the IAB are not particularly fond, but one really stands out. In 1970, my wife booked a charter through IBM who ran these from time to time. Route was JFK-Paris and the carrier was El Al. When we got up to the hallway leading to the gate area, there was a long row of tables and we were required to put out suitecases on it and open them up for inspection. Was maybe one of the first big security screenings, way before TSA days. At first we were mortified, but then realized we were really much safer and that it was a good thing, especially since EL Al had had some attacks in Europe.
 
7673mech
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:32 pm

The counters you ask about at the end of your thread:
I remember going as a kid in late -70's, early 80's to those counters to actually purchase tickets. Not sure what they were used for in 90's.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:33 pm

LAXffDUB wrote:
My fondest memory of the IAB was as a child gazing on the Calder mobile. Does anybody know it's current status? Is it on display somewhere?



When you are in T4, look up. It is a central point in the ticketing hall
 
e38
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:54 pm

with regard to the photo above of the arrivals board, in the lower right hand corner, is anyone familiar with the airline: Transcontinental? Routes, equipment?

I did a search for them in departedflights, timetable images, rzjets.net, and google without success.

Thanks.

e38
 
adipasqu
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:27 pm

e38 wrote:
with regard to the photo above of the arrivals board, in the lower right hand corner, is anyone familiar with the airline: Transcontinental? Routes, equipment?

I did a search for them in departedflights, timetable images, rzjets.net, and google without success.

Thanks.

e38


I found this:

"The airline (Express.Net) was established in 1972 as Trans Continental Airlines and in 1999 was purchased from Scott Kalitta by David Clark and Michael Goldberg who wholly own the airline, which had 270 employees (at March 2007)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express.Net_Airlines

No idea if this is the same airline as on the IAB board. There are references to fictitious airlines with similar names, so maybe this was just a mock-up of some sort?

EDIT: It is more likely this airline out of Argentina:

https://airlinehistory.co.uk/airline/ts ... nental-sa/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/351755752987

Can't find much information on them, however.
 
e38
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:57 pm

adipasqu, thank you very much for your reply. It is very helpful.

In the link you posted,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express.Net_Airlines,

there is a photo of a TransContinental Airlines DC8-63F, registration N820TC.

I plugged that registration into the aircraft data field at rzjets.net and it came up with some brief information about TransContinental Airlines. This may be airline listed on the arrivals board.

I'm not sure what year the photo of the arrivals board at JFK was taken, but this may be the airline--mostly jet fleet of DC-8s, with a handful of others--C-46, Convair 440, DC-4 and DC-6--providing charter, and some scheduled operations. In operation from 1974 - 1992 and headquartered at Detroit Willow Run Airport (KYIP).

Would be interesting to know what year the photo of the arrivals board was taken.

Thank you very much for the response; very helpful.

And, also phatfarmlines, great topic.

e38
 
TR1
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:26 pm

e38 wrote:
with regard to the photo above of the arrivals board, in the lower right hand corner, is anyone familiar with the airline: Transcontinental? Routes, equipment?

I did a search for them in departedflights, timetable images, rzjets.net, and google without success.

Thanks.

e38


Transcontinental was an independent airline from Argentina which operated from about 1957-1961. According to my copy of REG Davie's Airlines of Latin America they used Constellations and Britannias to IDL.
 
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Revelation
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:08 pm

ClipperYankee wrote:
That is an interesting one in the picture but I remember more the classic black and white ones that would take quite a while to cycle through to get to the desired airline, flight, times, etc. The one in the picture looks like it has pixels so it may have come before or after? The size of the board looks right though. It does show Pan Am flights and I am not sure if Pan Am had any arrivals in the IAB so that might disqualify it, perhaps?

My pleasure on bringing back memories, I always enjoyed going to JFK and yes, there was the TWA terminal too, which I got to actually use once in a 1974 flight back from Paris.

Sorry, I don't know. I also think the info looks like it is in pixels. The web site suggests the pictures on that page fall somewhere between the opening in the late 50s and the renovations done in the late 60s. The link https://www.airporthistory.org/about-the-team.html has contact info for the main author, Max, who also has a membership here on a.net (at least he did at one time), so if anyone wants to reach out they can.
 
e38
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:16 pm

TR1, thank you for the response as well; re: Transcontinental, airline of Argentina.

This company, listed on the JFK arrivals board, certainly could have been the carrier in question.

e38
 
PresRDC
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:23 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
F27500 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

I don't remember this part. I seem to recall being able to walk inside between carrier counters.


Unless they were airlines that shared the same walled off check in lobby, then no .. there were walls between them. You'd have to go out onto the sidewalk and back in again .. or .. up the stairs and then down again into the next lobby.


Yes, I remember it that way.....I passed through JFK in 1980 and '83 on AI 747 flights.....recall the AI check in being next to El Al.....once you entered a particular airline's check in lounge you could only exit into the main terminal or back on to the street.....if I recall, visitors could go almost up to the departure gate and as mentioned above by someone, the security used to be at each gate and not central.....if you purchased anything at a duty free shop it would be kept ready in plastic duty free bags at the gate just before boarding.....you could not carry the purchases out of the shop as those areas were accessible to visitors...


By the 1990s, you needed to be ticketed to enter the airline check-in areas in the East or West Wing Departure Buildings. There was security at each entrance to check tickets. But, once inside, there was no security until the gate.

The lack of windows was such a shame. I recall taking an Alitalia flight to FCO in 1997 that was supposed to be operated by a 767-300ER. At check-in, our seats were moved. It was not until we got on the aircraft that we realized why - the flight was swapped to an MD-11 Combi.*

* Technically, I didn't figure it out until a bit later. The presence of an L2 door? Not enough of a clue. The 2x2x2 seating in Magnifica Class? Not enough of a clue. The wide cabin? Not enough of a clue. It took me peering into the cockpit and seeing the 6 CRTs straight across and the three thrust levers to figure it out.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:27 am

I appreciate the responses - I'm learning a lot of the layout and following along with the IAB map from the Flickr site.

7673mech wrote:
The counters you ask about at the end of your thread:
I remember going as a kid in late -70's, early 80's to those counters to actually purchase tickets. Not sure what they were used for in 90's.


Thanks - it looked like the desks had gaps in between possibly for baggage check-in, but there were not belts behind the counters.

PresRDC wrote:
By the 1990s, you needed to be ticketed to enter the airline check-in areas in the East or West Wing Departure Buildings. There was security at each entrance to check tickets. But, once inside, there was no security until the gate.


I imagine the public was allowed in the arrivals hall then, but that would mean you could have access to the upstairs hallways and thus, be able to enter the "storefronts" from there.

Also, how were domestic arrivals handled at the IAB? Where would the domestic bag claim been located?
 
SXDFC
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:55 am

I am sure myself, and many others can attest to the exotic and fascinating array of international airlines at JFK being their aviation inspiration.

Any pictures of the IAB in the 1980s? Particularly Air India?
 
Clipper73
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:08 am

e38 wrote:
adipasqu, thank you very much for your reply. It is very helpful.

In the link you posted,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Express.Net_Airlines,

there is a photo of a TransContinental Airlines DC8-63F, registration N820TC.

I plugged that registration into the aircraft data field at rzjets.net and it came up with some brief information about TransContinental Airlines. This may be airline listed on the arrivals board.

I'm not sure what year the photo of the arrivals board at JFK was taken, but this may be the airline--mostly jet fleet of DC-8s, with a handful of others--C-46, Convair 440, DC-4 and DC-6--providing charter, and some scheduled operations. In operation from 1974 - 1992 and headquartered at Detroit Willow Run Airport (KYIP).

Would be interesting to know what year the photo of the arrivals board was taken.

Thank you very much for the response; very helpful.

And, also phatfarmlines, great topic.

e38


The DC-8-63 you are taking about is from the airline that existed in the early 80s and started life as Gulf Air Transport and based in Florida using the Bac-111 and Viscounts before changing it's name to Trans Continental and getting DC-8s. The one based at YIP was an all cargo airline that was merged into Zantop in the early 80s
 
Clipper73
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:12 am

e38 wrote:
TR1, thank you for the response as well; re: Transcontinental, airline of Argentina.

This company, listed on the JFK arrivals board, certainly could have been the carrier in question.

e38


Her is a Transcontinental Super Constellation at IDL in 1958.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Transco ... on/75517/L
 
Clipper73
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:21 am

TR1 wrote:
e38 wrote:
with regard to the photo above of the arrivals board, in the lower right hand corner, is anyone familiar with the airline: Transcontinental? Routes, equipment?

I did a search for them in departedflights, timetable images, rzjets.net, and google without success.

Thanks.

e38


Transcontinental was an independent airline from Argentina which operated from about 1957-1961. According to my copy of REG Davie's Airlines of Latin America they used Constellations and Britannias to IDL.


Here is more information on Transcontinental.

https://www.henrytenby.com/aerolineas-a ... o-history/

First we’ll start with Transcontinental. One of the first, and certainly the one which provided Aerolineas Argentinas with the biggest intercontinental challenge, was Transcontinental, S.A., (TSA) formed on 5 September, 1956, by a group of private Argentine investors, inspired by Jorge Carnicero, who was connected with a United States non-scheduled airline, California. Eastern, which leased aircraft in exchange for a 25 per cent shareholding. All flight personnel were of US nationality, but these were to be replaced by Argentines by 1962.



Transcontinental began operations in 1957 with a fleet of four Curtiss C-46s and three Lockheed 1049H Super Constellations. The C-46s entered service on a domestic and local network which was notable for including the most desirable destinations: Cordoba, Tucuman, Salta, and Mendoza—some of the largest cities in Argentina—together with Mar del Plata, the seaside resort, and Montevideo, the Uruguayan capital. The Super Constellations opened a service to New York in September 1958 and to the mountain and lake resort of Bariloche, fast-growing in popularity, in February 1959.



Already, however, TSA had greater ambitions. In August 1958, it ordered two Britannia 305 propeller-turbine airliners from the Bristol Aeroplane Company (formerly ordered by Northeast Airlines), and these went into service on the New York route in March, 1960. In October, Santiago, Chile, and Miami were added to the impressive network, while Asuncion was included in 1961. Thus, the airline appeared to be doing well as its on-board service was good and its schedules convenient. It demonstrated its confidence by ordering Convair 440s for domestic routes, and Convair 880s for international.

But like many other thinly financed Latin American airlines of the time, their long term success was not assured. A financial rescue operation was attempted in the Spring of 1961 by SABENA, the Belgian airline, Transcontinental SA suspended operations on November 8, 1961. Its finances were such that one of its Britannias was temporarily impounded in New York, but was later released on payment of $83,000 in cash owed for fees and fuel.
 
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Polot
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:43 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
Also, how were domestic arrivals handled at the IAB? Where would the domestic bag claim been located?

I may be mistaken, but I do not believe there were any domestic arrivals, and the building was not set up to handle them. If a domestic airline used IAB it was for international arrivals, with the plane likely towed to another terminal for departure.
 
Clipper73
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:27 pm

e38 wrote:
TR1, thank you for the response as well; re: Transcontinental, airline of Argentina.

This company, listed on the JFK arrivals board, certainly could have been the carrier in question.

e38


This link confirms that it is Transcontinental of Argentina as flight 500 is listed in this 1958 timetable.

https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimage ... 58auca.jpg
 
e38
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:06 pm

Clipper73, yes, that's it.

Thank you very much for the information. Very interesting photo, information, and timetable image in all your replies, Reply # 35, 36, 37, and 39. Fascinating history.

I didn't see the timetable image in wwww.timetableimages.com because I was looking in the wrong category--airlines of the USA--I should have expanded the search!

Thanks again.

e38
 
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varsity
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:09 pm

Hey, came to see why my stats spiked on the Pan Am photos.

I spent a fair bit of time in the IAB towards the end of its life. As others mentioned, the "storefronts" made for some strange bedfellows. Pan Am II shared with Icelandair and ALIA-Royal Jordanian for the brief time they were in T4; later they took over the southern half of T6 before imploding. Earlier, I remember Iran Air and Iraqi Airways both in the WWD, as well as Air China and China Airlines.

The restaurant, which was on the third floor behind that click board, was about the only place you could see the ramp (except in the chaplains' office which was also upstairs above the EWD gates). My buddy and I made friends with Father Devine and would check things out from there.

There were only domestic flights towards the very end, a steel pole-barn type structure was erected between the central hall and the EWD sections. I recall Sun Country and Northwest being the only domestic carriers using T4 at that point.

The terminal was replaced in "slices" and was really chaotic at that time. The new departures hall was built in front of the current one and there were plywood tunnels for the public connecting the open sections while they worked on bits in between.

phatfarmlines wrote:
Following a thread from last year on the IAB overwing jetways, I've been curious to learn more about the IAB layout. It's not a typical layout for a terminal, almost resembling an early curb-to-gate model. It's a terminal where interior photos are very hard to come by, though in the thread from last year's discussion, there was a YouTube link from an episode of the "Late Night Show with David Letterman" back in 1988 where he hosted a show from the restaurant overlooking the two piers. That's the most I've ever seen of the interior of the facility.

I've linked a map of the IAB from 1973 below, which I presume is post-expansion. As I understand it, the ticketing and check-in lobbies were set up like "storefronts" resembling a shopping plaza with each of the international flag carrier utilizing its own branding as well as staffing the operations with its own employees. This was in the days before common-use technology or handling companies like Swissport or Menzies. You could access the airline's lobby from curbside, but once inside, you could not access another "storefront" or airline lobby. To do so, you had to go back outside and walk to that other lobby.

Once you checked in, each of the flag carriers had their own lounge upstairs, accessible by stairs/escalator/elevator. When it was time for boarding, you simply went out into the corridor to your gate and boarded the flight. As security procedures became enforced and the terminal was renovated and expanded for widebody usage, the lounges above the ticket counters were likely converted to enclosed premium lounges for that airline. From last year's thread, I learned that you went through security at the gate and not some consolidated checkpoint.

As the terminal was reconfigured and expanded for widebody usage, how was the arrivals facility expanded? Were their baggage carousels in the basement like the TWA Flight Center and the Pan Am Worldport for international arrivals? I presume the overhead view of the supermarket-style arrivals inspection was sealed off by the time the 1990's came around.

Pictures I found on Flickr:

Map of IAB from 1973, West Wing

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802 ... 4h-QZu7gr/

(Source: user mpar21)

Map of IAB from 1973, East Wing and Arrivals Building

https://www.flickr.com/photos/103688802 ... 4h-QZu7gr/

(Source: user mpar21)

Pan Am [2nd iteration] "storefront" (taken sometime in the late 90's?)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shiftynj/ ... bvL-4JCKm3

(Source: user shiftynj)

Another "storefront" view from 1978 looking at the East Wing Departures

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... fT-2k2ALsD

(Source: user Edward Crellin)

Demotion work on the old IAB. I presume the above-level hallways was an arrival corridor?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... Kv5-qxDdPt

(Source: user Tom Turner)

Interior of Arrivals Building at night. Were the counters here service counters, possibly for passengers to confirm return flights? Were these counters used for any other purpose through the 90's?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... ESS-5WmEYQ

(Source: user Tom Turner)
 
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eta unknown
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:03 pm

varsity wrote:
Hey, came to see why my stats spiked on the Pan Am photos.
I spent a fair bit of time in the IAB towards the end of its life. As others mentioned, the "storefronts" made for some strange bedfellows. Pan Am II shared with Icelandair and ALIA-Royal Jordanian for the brief time they were in T4; later they took over the southern half of T6 before imploding. Earlier, I remember Iran Air and Iraqi Airways both in the WWD, as well as Air China and China Airlines.


Out of curiosity, when did Iraqi Airways serve JFK? I remember their very large office on 6th Avenue opposite Radio City Musical Hall, but I don't remember any flights (I do, however, remember seeing IR at the PA Worldport just before the revolution).
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:37 pm

eta unknown wrote:
varsity wrote:
Hey, came to see why my stats spiked on the Pan Am photos.
I spent a fair bit of time in the IAB towards the end of its life. As others mentioned, the "storefronts" made for some strange bedfellows. Pan Am II shared with Icelandair and ALIA-Royal Jordanian for the brief time they were in T4; later they took over the southern half of T6 before imploding. Earlier, I remember Iran Air and Iraqi Airways both in the WWD, as well as Air China and China Airlines.


Out of curiosity, when did Iraqi Airways serve JFK? I remember their very large office on 6th Avenue opposite Radio City Musical Hall, but I don't remember any flights (I do, however, remember seeing IR at the PA Worldport just before the revolution).


Iran Air flew JFK-THR nonstop, and THR-LHR-JFK on the Westbound sector. Pan Am flew JFK-THR on the 747SP for a time and at other times, THR was a stop on Pan Am's Flight 1/2 RTW service. All of course, pre-1979 revolution.
 
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varsity
Posts: 471
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:06 pm

Iraqi flew 707s and then 747s to JFK in the 1970s.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:17 pm

Polot wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Also, how were domestic arrivals handled at the IAB? Where would the domestic bag claim been located?

I may be mistaken, but I do not believe there were any domestic arrivals, and the building was not set up to handle them. If a domestic airline used IAB it was for international arrivals, with the plane likely towed to another terminal for departure.



There was a domestic baggage claim. Northwest used it. National out of Vegas used it. There were always some domestic airline ops in T4
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:20 pm

PresRDC wrote:
Gr8Circle wrote:
F27500 wrote:

Unless they were airlines that shared the same walled off check in lobby, then no .. there were walls between them. You'd have to go out onto the sidewalk and back in again .. or .. up the stairs and then down again into the next lobby.


Yes, I remember it that way.....I passed through JFK in 1980 and '83 on AI 747 flights.....recall the AI check in being next to El Al.....once you entered a particular airline's check in lounge you could only exit into the main terminal or back on to the street.....if I recall, visitors could go almost up to the departure gate and as mentioned above by someone, the security used to be at each gate and not central.....if you purchased anything at a duty free shop it would be kept ready in plastic duty free bags at the gate just before boarding.....you could not carry the purchases out of the shop as those areas were accessible to visitors...


By the 1990s, you needed to be ticketed to enter the airline check-in areas in the East or West Wing Departure Buildings. There was security at each entrance to check tickets. But, once inside, there was no security until the gate.

The lack of windows was such a shame. I recall taking an Alitalia flight to FCO in 1997 that was supposed to be operated by a 767-300ER. At check-in, our seats were moved. It was not until we got on the aircraft that we realized why - the flight was swapped to an MD-11 Combi.*

* Technically, I didn't figure it out until a bit later. The presence of an L2 door? Not enough of a clue. The 2x2x2 seating in Magnifica Class? Not enough of a clue. The wide cabin? Not enough of a clue. It took me peering into the cockpit and seeing the 6 CRTs straight across and the three thrust levers to figure it out.



I don’t know about this. I know EL AL has a special security set up at their entrance in 4W. Bollards and all. But I also got up into the common hallway to go to the airplane shop and walk around a lot in the late 90s. And I never did anything to sneaky to get in there.

Wish that shop moved to the new T4
 
aarbee
Posts: 443
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:21 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
varsity wrote:
Hey, came to see why my stats spiked on the Pan Am photos.
I spent a fair bit of time in the IAB towards the end of its life. As others mentioned, the "storefronts" made for some strange bedfellows. Pan Am II shared with Icelandair and ALIA-Royal Jordanian for the brief time they were in T4; later they took over the southern half of T6 before imploding. Earlier, I remember Iran Air and Iraqi Airways both in the WWD, as well as Air China and China Airlines.


Out of curiosity, when did Iraqi Airways serve JFK? I remember their very large office on 6th Avenue opposite Radio City Musical Hall, but I don't remember any flights (I do, however, remember seeing IR at the PA Worldport just before the revolution).


Iran Air flew JFK-THR nonstop, and THR-LHR-JFK on the Westbound sector. Pan Am flew JFK-THR on the 747SP for a time and at other times, THR was a stop on Pan Am's Flight 1/2 RTW service. All of course, pre-1979 revolution.

eta is querying about IraQi airways ... so might be JFK-Baghdad :)
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:32 pm

There was a very interesting time period that hasn’t been discussed yet…The period of construction after Schiphol USA took over.

They immediately demolished the central arch, fixed the PA system and installed Television Arrival and Departure boards…Something that had been normal at other airports for 30 years. I remember a Schiphol person being quoted as saying they couldn’t believe how dated the old terminal was and what bad condition it was in under the care of the port authority.

They built the new concourses perpendicular to the existing concourses to keep a certain number of gates in operation at all times. It was a major project that went on for several years and is the reason you now have those long concourses at T4. The staging was quite impressive and they managed to keep the original terminal connected throughout the project.

They did this by creating a giant U in the roadway at the midpoint of the terminal and building the future T4 in front of the demolished arch while running the concourses through the East and West wings of the building and hoisting the giant trusses forming the new departure hall over the temporary customs area.

In July of 1999, they actually had an awkward moment with the trusses and had to uninstall a couple of them as they werent the right fit. So you had a period of time that summer where a building looked like it was getting constructed and then it got deconstructed.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5356
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Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:33 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Polot wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
Also, how were domestic arrivals handled at the IAB? Where would the domestic bag claim been located?

I may be mistaken, but I do not believe there were any domestic arrivals, and the building was not set up to handle them. If a domestic airline used IAB it was for international arrivals, with the plane likely towed to another terminal for departure.



There was a domestic baggage claim. Northwest used it. National out of Vegas used it. There were always some domestic airline ops in T4


NW flew JFK-DTW-JFK to connect to the NW TPAC network there, advertised it as such, but didn't NW use the old AA terminal at JFK for its service to NRT and DTW back when the IAB was around or had it moved to the IAB to co-locate with KL post 1989 when the NW/KL alliance went into effect? I honestly don't remember.
Last edited by ContinentalEWR on Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 5356
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: JFK Old IAB Layout

Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:34 pm

aarbee wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
eta unknown wrote:

Out of curiosity, when did Iraqi Airways serve JFK? I remember their very large office on 6th Avenue opposite Radio City Musical Hall, but I don't remember any flights (I do, however, remember seeing IR at the PA Worldport just before the revolution).


Iran Air flew JFK-THR nonstop, and THR-LHR-JFK on the Westbound sector. Pan Am flew JFK-THR on the 747SP for a time and at other times, THR was a stop on Pan Am's Flight 1/2 RTW service. All of course, pre-1979 revolution.

eta is querying about IraQi airways ... so might be JFK-Baghdad :)


The post mentioned IR and THR service as well. What is actually the point of your comment?

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