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lightsaber
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TSA/ATC vaccine mandate effect travel

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:45 pm

There is a November 22nd deadline for government employees to be vaccinated:
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... ravel-rush

The TSA labor union wants to move the December 8th deadline to January 4th as with Federal contractors:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets ... NewsSearch

My math says must vaccinate by December 21st. Errr... I don't think we can have a mandate kick in right as the busiest travel starts. Requiring mandate kicking in right before Christmas would do the Grinch proud.

I personally see the next wave starting. See the 7 day average cases in the graphs:
Globally: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

USA: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Ok, less clear on USA, we've definitely hit a high bottom for this cycle.

So while I personally think vaccines are a great idea. But if you are going to open international travel right before the holidays, you really shouldn't penalize workers right when productivity needs to be high.

Note: this is CivAv on the timing of the mandate vs. demand. Please take discussion on mandates/vaccines to non-Av, this is a thread on timing.

Lightsaber
 
joeblow10
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:52 pm

Fully agree. If we are going to have a mandate (a different discussion), who on Earth decided it would be a good idea to have that in place right before the holidays? The lines have been bad enough lately at places like DEN, in large part due to staffing.

Granted, I’m sure the TSA/ATC aren’t the “first” employees that come to mind when this decision is made, but still, it would seem prudent to move it back to January when things really slow down again.

And on that last point, ATC sounds like it’s got the potential to be just as disruptive. I’ve heard numbers of 30-40% of TSA is unvaccinated thrown around. I’m not sure how (if?) that is verifiable, but if even 1/4 of those folks remain unvaccinated travel is going to be a mess over the holidays
 
IADFCO
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:56 pm

The timing is perfect. If anything, it should have been done sooner.

There are going to be enough geniuses in lines and airplanes who are unvaccinated, wear no masks, and show total disregard for other people's health. No need to add other such geniuses from TSA and its contractors.
 
joeblow10
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:00 am

IADFCO wrote:
The timing is perfect. If anything, it should have been done sooner.

There are going to be enough geniuses in lines and airplanes who are unvaccinated, wear no masks, and show total disregard for other people's health. No need to add other such geniuses from TSA and its contractors.


Always easy to type this behind the keyboard until we’re all stuck in line for 2 hours the day after Christmas.

Regardless of whether it’s “right or wrong” to have a mandate, mitigating the effects needs to be thought out

And to those of us who have got the vaccine, why should we be punished? Your logic doesn’t really make sense
Last edited by joeblow10 on Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:01 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Fully agree. If we are going to have a mandate (a different discussion), who on Earth decided it would be a good idea to have that in place right before the holidays? The lines have been bad enough lately at places like DEN, in large part due to staffing.

Granted, I’m sure the TSA/ATC aren’t the “first” employees that come to mind when this decision is made, but still, it would seem prudent to move it back to January when things really slow down again.

And on that last point, ATC sounds like it’s got the potential to be just as disruptive. I’ve heard numbers of 30-40% of TSA is unvaccinated thrown around. I’m not sure how (if?) that is verifiable, but if even 1/4 of those folks remain unvaccinated travel is going to be a mess over the holidays

I believe the timing is deliberate, timed to cause as much consternation and chaos as possible. As with everywhere else, those that are eligible and choose not to, are retiring enmass. Not getting to Grandma’s for Christmas because some people refuse to take the shot, creating a staff shortage, makes for a great media sob story, and will get lots of attention, which is exactly what they want.
 
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usxguy
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:03 am

I think you are gonna see more staffing levels affected at the FAA (ATC, inspectors, etc) than TSA to be honest...
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:12 am

usxguy wrote:
I think you are gonna see more staffing levels affected at the FAA (ATC, inspectors, etc) than TSA to be honest...

Quite possible. It is senior staff leavin everywhere else, creating a brain drain. It takes time to get people qualified to move, especially in government.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:54 am

IADFCO wrote:
The timing is perfect. If anything, it should have been done sooner.

There are going to be enough geniuses in lines and airplanes who are unvaccinated, wear no masks, and show total disregard for other people's health. No need to add other such geniuses from TSA and its contractors.


It gets down to how one weights public safety vs. public convenience. Seeing the data on the 4th wave in Germany - more new infections than at any point previously - I prefer safety. There will be too many unvaccinated people traveling.
 
silentbob
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:11 am

There's always going to be a reason not to institute a mandate. Holiday travel, post-holiday travel, spring break, etc... If they're going to do it, just do it.
 
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seahawks7757
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:13 am

I don't think this is going to stand as the courts last week ruled against the Government Contractors vaccine mandate.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/06/politics ... index.html
Last edited by seahawks7757 on Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seahawks7757
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:15 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
The timing is perfect. If anything, it should have been done sooner.

There are going to be enough geniuses in lines and airplanes who are unvaccinated, wear no masks, and show total disregard for other people's health. No need to add other such geniuses from TSA and its contractors.


It gets down to how one weights public safety vs. public convenience. Seeing the data on the 4th wave in Germany - more new infections than at any point previously - I prefer safety. There will be too many unvaccinated people traveling.



What's odd is why are we having a fourth wave with so many people now vaccinated. So I wouldn't say the vaccine is doing anything at this point other then helping keep you from having a serious reaction to COVID 19.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:17 am

seahawks7757 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
The timing is perfect. If anything, it should have been done sooner.

There are going to be enough geniuses in lines and airplanes who are unvaccinated, wear no masks, and show total disregard for other people's health. No need to add other such geniuses from TSA and its contractors.


It gets down to how one weights public safety vs. public convenience. Seeing the data on the 4th wave in Germany - more new infections than at any point previously - I prefer safety. There will be too many unvaccinated people traveling.



What's odd is why are we having a fourth wave with so many people now vaccinated. So I wouldn't say the vaccine is doing anything at this point other then helping keep you from having a serious reaction to COVID 19.


Only 58% of the country is fully vaccinated - that's not 'so many'.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... ch-15.html
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 365
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:33 am

The vaccine mandate should have done sooner. It should not be pushed back.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:51 am

seahawks7757 wrote:
I don't think this is going to stand as the courts last week ruled against the Government Contractors vaccine mandate.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/06/politics ... index.html

Except TSA and FAA are goverment emoyees, not contractors...
 
IADFCO
Posts: 308
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:00 am

joeblow10 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
The timing is perfect. If anything, it should have been done sooner.

There are going to be enough geniuses in lines and airplanes who are unvaccinated, wear no masks, and show total disregard for other people's health. No need to add other such geniuses from TSA and its contractors.


Always easy to type this behind the keyboard until we’re all stuck in line for 2 hours the day after Christmas.

Regardless of whether it’s “right or wrong” to have a mandate, mitigating the effects needs to be thought out

And to those of us who have got the vaccine, why should we be punished? Your logic doesn’t really make sense


Yes, I'm behind a keyboard now, but I'll be in the TSA line (and those at the gate, at passport control, etc.) in a month or so, wishing that there was a vaccine mandate not only for the TSA people but for everybody in an airport or on a plane.

And we are the lucky ones. I'm thinking of the poor people with cancer, transplants, and weakened immune systems who cannot be fully immunized and have to spend time in the aerosols of the unvaccinated geniuses.
 
JohanTally
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:22 am

Aaron747 wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

It gets down to how one weights public safety vs. public convenience. Seeing the data on the 4th wave in Germany - more new infections than at any point previously - I prefer safety. There will be too many unvaccinated people traveling.



What's odd is why are we having a fourth wave with so many people now vaccinated. So I wouldn't say the vaccine is doing anything at this point other then helping keep you from having a serious reaction to COVID 19.


Only 58% of the country is fully vaccinated - that's not 'so many'.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... ch-15.html

I'm not trying to tinfoil hat anyone but the most vaccinated states in your article have the highest Covid case rates in the US currently. The US has roughly the same death toll post vaccine rollout as opposed to before and that's after inoculating a vast majority of the most vulnerable population. This virus comes and goes in waves but globally we consistently see highly vaccinated populations set new case records. Fortunately the vaccines do seem to lower the likelihood of hospitalizations and death but they aren't stopping the spread as we were originally told.

https://amp.burlingtonfreepress.com/amp/6367449001
 
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lightsaber
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:25 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
The vaccine mandate should have done sooner. It should not be pushed back.

The issue is a mandate required a full approved vaccine. That wasn't until August 23rd:

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedn ... 19-vaccine

Considering time must be given for people to actually get vaccinated, we are talking a difference of weeks (yes, healthcare was allowed earlier mandates for I think obvious reasons).

I'm very pro vaccine, I am very concerned about the next wave. But there is a tradition not to layoff before the holidays.

Lightsaber
 
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ADent
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Re: TSA/ATC vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:09 am

We just fired at least 50 people for not meeting our internal vaccine mandate deadline ( based on 12/8 DOD mandate, minus the setbacks to get two shots and 14 days between last shot and deadline).

Seems like other companies in my field are waiting until the end to sack folks for the mandate. Not sure if the DOD date is still 12/8 or got pushed until January (that was based on OSHA mandate). Did the 5th District ruling on the OSHA mandate only apply to that district or the whole country?

Either way it would be better for everyone to fire the unvaccinated TSA folks after the Christmas rush, but mandates are mandates.
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: TSA/ATC vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:09 am

Hey. Moderator who deleted my last post, could you please contact me via PM.

Thanks.
 
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qf789
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Re: TSA/ATC vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:13 am

Dreamflight767 wrote:
Hey. Moderator who deleted my last post, could you please contact me via PM.

Thanks.


No any queries relating to moderation must be done via email, [email protected], it is also stated in the rules
 
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Aaron747
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:26 am

JohanTally wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:


What's odd is why are we having a fourth wave with so many people now vaccinated. So I wouldn't say the vaccine is doing anything at this point other then helping keep you from having a serious reaction to COVID 19.


Only 58% of the country is fully vaccinated - that's not 'so many'.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... ch-15.html

I'm not trying to tinfoil hat anyone but the most vaccinated states in your article have the highest Covid case rates in the US currently. The US has roughly the same death toll post vaccine rollout as opposed to before and that's after inoculating a vast majority of the most vulnerable population. This virus comes and goes in waves but globally we consistently see highly vaccinated populations set new case records. Fortunately the vaccines do seem to lower the likelihood of hospitalizations and death but they aren't stopping the spread as we were originally told.

https://amp.burlingtonfreepress.com/amp/6367449001


VT and ME are having problems currently. The other leaders in vaccination rate, CT, MA, RI, MD, WA, NY and NJ all have good trendlines.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 528
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:46 am

Aaron747 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Only 58% of the country is fully vaccinated - that's not 'so many'.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... ch-15.html

I'm not trying to tinfoil hat anyone but the most vaccinated states in your article have the highest Covid case rates in the US currently. The US has roughly the same death toll post vaccine rollout as opposed to before and that's after inoculating a vast majority of the most vulnerable population. This virus comes and goes in waves but globally we consistently see highly vaccinated populations set new case records. Fortunately the vaccines do seem to lower the likelihood of hospitalizations and death but they aren't stopping the spread as we were originally told.

https://amp.burlingtonfreepress.com/amp/6367449001


VT and ME are having problems currently. The other leaders in vaccination rate, CT, MA, RI, MD, WA, NY and NJ all have good trendlines.

The top 5 most inoculated states in your article all have over 70% vaccination rate and they all are seeing rising case rates higher than the national average. In Massachusetts there's nearly a 1 percent mortality rate with vaccinated breakthrough cases which is a similar mortality rate to that of the unvaccinated. Federally mandating a vaccine that is not providing adequate protection to the vastly mutated SARS-CoV-2 seems illogical.

https://www.courant.com/coronavirus/hc- ... utType=amp

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/br ... 61754/?amp

https://www.wpri.com/health/coronavirus ... us-update/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:01 am

JohanTally wrote:
In Massachusetts there's nearly a 1 percent mortality rate with vaccinated breakthrough cases which is a similar mortality rate to that of the unvaccinated.


From the article you posted:

The breakthrough cases represent just a small percentage -- about 1.2% -- of the 4.7 million people who have been fully vaccinated and the deaths an even smaller percentage -- just 0.01%.

1% of 4,000 breakthrough cases is not 'similar' to that of the unvaccinated. You are comparing a percentage against two completely different cohorts.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 528
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:39 am

Aaron747 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
In Massachusetts there's nearly a 1 percent mortality rate with vaccinated breakthrough cases which is a similar mortality rate to that of the unvaccinated.


From the article you posted:

The breakthrough cases represent just a small percentage -- about 1.2% -- of the 4.7 million people who have been fully vaccinated and the deaths an even smaller percentage -- just 0.01%.

1% of 4,000 breakthrough cases is not 'similar' to that of the unvaccinated. You are comparing a percentage against two completely different cohorts.

I am just highlighting the vaccinated mortality rate of breakthrough cases in Massachusetts is not far from the baseline mortality rate for infections in the US since the beginning of the pandemic.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
 
log0008
Posts: 574
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Re: TSA/ATC vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:51 am

Changing the date based on timing just lends to the whole anti-vax crowd of it being political, not health-based.

The error in the US was not mandating it during the actual role out. Australia has in most states on a massive level and national vaccination rates are over 90% of those over 12 with some states nearing 95%.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: TSA vaccine mandate effect travel

Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:55 am

JohanTally wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
In Massachusetts there's nearly a 1 percent mortality rate with vaccinated breakthrough cases which is a similar mortality rate to that of the unvaccinated.


From the article you posted:

The breakthrough cases represent just a small percentage -- about 1.2% -- of the 4.7 million people who have been fully vaccinated and the deaths an even smaller percentage -- just 0.01%.

1% of 4,000 breakthrough cases is not 'similar' to that of the unvaccinated. You are comparing a percentage against two completely different cohorts.

I am just highlighting the vaccinated mortality rate of breakthrough cases in Massachusetts is not far from the baseline mortality rate for infections in the US since the beginning of the pandemic.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


This thread is about the mandate's effect on holiday travel, not reasons to dispense with the mandate. I will say your statistical assumptions are faulty and leave it at that. There are other threads in Non-Av where you can get into the particulars as to why.

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